The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[Kid Chameleone]

lol this is a funny thread. I know what your saying, yes hiruzen was known as the god of shinobi and the strongest of all the kages in his prime BUT you cant really trust kishi's words anymore... i mean like hashirama started off a regular super nin and now you need this guys cells to even compete these days, he gets like a new power up everytime madara mentions him and konohamaru beat one of the paths of pain... nuff said lol. kishi has been going back and forth changing his story so you cant really rely on the databooks you just gotta read week by week and accept things however he puts it cause at this point i dont see anyone being able to stand up to madara even if hiruzen was ninja jesus

[marshall313]

lol this is a funny thread. I know what your saying, yes hiruzen was known as the god of shinobi and the strongest of all the kages in his prime BUT you cant really trust kishi's words anymore... i mean like hashirama started off a regular super nin and now you need this guys cells to even compete these days, he gets like a new power up everytime madara mentions him and konohamaru beat one of the paths of pain... nuff said lol. kishi has been going back and forth changing his story so you cant really rely on the databooks you just gotta read week by week and accept things however he puts it cause at this point i dont see anyone being able to stand up to madara even if hiruzen was ninja jesus

If we can't trust kishi's words anymore then asking a proof from the manga are all irrelevant. So debating in a thread doesn't need any scan/proof anymore, all we need is our logic and present that as proof/fact. On what basis? Nothing, after all, kishi's words, kishi's hype, kishi's story and kishi's logic are all nonsense and can't be trusted. Right?

So all of us will going to present our proof/logic as a truth and a fact. As if we're the one who created this manga.

And lastly, if we can't trust kishi's words anymore then all of the characters statement are all nonsense.

We based our manga fact from kishi's manga.
We based our logic from kishi's logic.
We based our hype from kishi's manga/hype.
We based our debates from kishi's words/manga.

And does kishi contradicting his hype to hiruzen? No. We haven't seen anything from him. We haven't seen his true caliber on why orochimaru said that he's no match to a younger hiruzen. Why would orochimaru said that? Why would kishi make that statement through oro?

Hiruzen maybe a weak from what we've seen from the manga, but for Pete's sake, we haven't seen his true caliber on his prime.

[xXan]

I would buy that, but the "that point in time" wasn't that far in time. As it was stated after the revelation of all five Kages and must have been after the Kage summit. By the time of the Kage summit, Hashirama was already hyped to death.



And the feat is, he defeated Hashirama...

No rage please. But hey...that's the way it is.

Who defeated Hashirama? Where did that happen? I really hope you are not using a MINDLESS PUPPET to back up this words as it is COMPLETLY void. Look at what Madara is doing curently with Hashirama's power and how he was owning the 5 Kages... Naruto had to create an army of himself with huge Rasengans after getting a Kurama infusion to stop even 1 wave of wood element.

Then that big ass wood dragon, polen, a ton of wood clones... Etc. He did not use any of that, he had NO MIND. It was a puppet used very badly by Orochimaru.

Heh aside for killing himself Sarutobi can't even put him down considering Madara was comparing Tsunade's healing with his own... Tsuade is curently IN HALF and saving the rest. Asuming he would use the jutsu to win as nothing else would phaze him and it would actualy connect it would be a draw so not even THEN would it be a win... Now considering the number of clones on the field from Hashirama and the fact that he can be anywhere in his roots... GL hitting him with the DG seals... Of course i have no idea how Sarutobi is doing handseals inside the polen and having an entire forest going for him constantly...

But then again just use the darkness and NOT do what a MINDLESS puppet was doing and run in with a kunai like a bloody moron. CRUSH HIM like a BUG with wood element when he can't see shit.

I am sorry but by any LOGICAL deduction Sarutobi can't even put up a fight.. Winning is out of the question completly.

Hashirama may not have been at full power, however seeing as an handicapped COMPLETELY senseless puppet almost killed two of the strongest shinobis in the world... yes this is an impressive feat.

Nagato.

1 Kabuto improved on the jutsu by a good degree.
2 Nagato was direcly controled by Kabuto so it was kabuto directing him. He used ALL his abilities to the max. Nothing even close to what Orochimaru was doing with the first. The first and second Hokage's where on robot mode and fighting very badly might i add. In essence it was Kabuto with Nagato's powers... Even worse then Nagato with his own mind.... Kabuto is WAY more tactical then Nagato.
3 Then he had to KILL himself to even achive anything as he was getting owned. If not for the plot seal he would be dead now.

@Hakuteiken


Nop, its this guy:

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/577/13

Madara was invincible even before he was ET. Tsuck asked him( well Obito) why does he even play in the shadows if he really is Madara as he would defeat them by just fighting. That question Obito answered that he was injured from his fight with Hashirama... So even the living EMS one was to much for the alliance... You can deduce from that... There is no way Sarutobi would even come close to that power.

Well, a Rinnegan master's power, even under-utilized, is far greater in comparison to anything else.
Plus, Kabuto has improved Edo Tensei significantly after Orochimaru was sealed away. His control over the jutsu was vastly superior to that of Orochimaru's back at that fight. Orochimaru was yet to discover the true nature of the jutsu despite completing it, as seen when he tried to summon Minato, although it wasn't possible. If it wasn't for Shiki Fuujin, there was no chance for Hiruzen to survive, anyway.

Well to be fair Orochimaru had no bloody idea Minato was in the DG seal, he did not even knew what that is before Sarutobi used it on his but. He just belived Minato was dead. So it does not apply here. To tell the truth even SARUTOBI belived HE stopped the 3'th coffin.
The thing is at that point in time Kishi had no idea how he is going to use this tech and that people sealed are not going to be able to be summoned. But yeah anyway you look at it you can't make the above claim.

[ninjabot]

In fact, even now madara feels inferior to hashirama. As if his current power isn't enough to defeat the man who trashed him like a fodder. That's being said, madara with riinegan can't do shit to hashirama. Madara admitted that while kabuto even agreed.

I demand to see where any of this fanfiction bullshit was said. Right now. Show me the exact page in the manga where anything even half resembling this is said.

[marshall313]

I demand to see where any of this fanfiction bullshit was said. Right now. Show me the exact page in the manga where anything even half resembling this is said.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c575/3.html


http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c575/12.html

Madara who had the rinnegan, who had the perfect susanoo and the meteor just stated that only hashirama can stop him now. As in now in his current power. The way he hailed hashirama's name, the way he defined hashirama's power, yea, I can conclude hashirama is still superior to madara.

I know stopping someone doesn't really mean that he can really defeat him. But from madara's case, the way he said this ''only hashirama can stop him now but d he's already dead'' argument is an indication that hashirama can stop/defeat him.

Maybe I'm wrong or right. But from kabuto's opinion, who even researched madara's body/power, came into conclusion that

Madara's power is a legendary

While

Hashirama's power is a myth just like the rikudou sennin himself.

[IChallengeYou!]

In fact, even now madara feels inferior to hashirama. As if his current power isn't enough to defeat the man who trashed him like a fodder. That's being said, madara with riinegan can't do shit to hashirama. Madara admitted that while kabuto even agreed.

i have just asked this out loud

I can conclude hashirama is still superior to madara.

I can conclude that your conclusion is simply wrong. Maybe you'll use Tsunade's loverboy words as proof that Hashi>Madara too?

[ninjabot]

@marshall313: No. You said that Madara said that even with the Rinnegan he could not defeat Hashirama.

I asked you to show me where Madara said this. And in BOTH PAGES that you posted Madara doesn't even say Hashirama's name!!! Do you understand what's wrong with this entire situation? You either just got caught in the most despicable lie you could've tried to sneak by with, or you really... REALLY dropped the ball on your Tagalog-to-English translation.

Even more disgusting, you said that Hashirama (the guy who couldn't put Madara down throughout the entirety of his professional career) beat him down like he was a fodder. You... you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[KingOfNight]

Well, a Rinnegan master's power, even under-utilized, is far greater in comparison to anything else.
Plus, Kabuto has improved Edo Tensei significantly after Orochimaru was sealed away. His control over the jutsu was vastly superior to that of Orochimaru's back at that fight. Orochimaru was yet to discover the true nature of the jutsu despite completing it, as seen when he tried to summon Minato, although it wasn't possible. If it wasn't for Shiki Fuujin, there was no chance for Hiruzen to survive, anyway.

1 Kabuto improved on the jutsu by a good degree.
2 Nagato was direcly controled by Kabuto so it was kabuto directing him. He used ALL his abilities to the max. Nothing even close to what Orochimaru was doing with the first. The first and second Hokage's where on robot mode and fighting very badly might i add. In essence it was Kabuto with Nagato's powers... Even worse then Nagato with his own mind.... Kabuto is WAY more tactical then Nagato.
3 Then he had to KILL himself to even achive anything as he was getting owned. If not for the plot seal he would be dead now.

Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was perfect. He used it at 100% potential, however Kabuto simply broke the 100% limit and took it to possibly 101%. So it's not like there was anything wrong with his Edo Tensei, it's just that Kabuto went further beyond perfection. And even if we assume that Hashirama wasn't at full power, he would at least be somewhat 80-90% of his power, does that make it anymore believable for Hiruzen to defeat him ?

.............................................................................................................................

xXan

That not what the point of my argument here. Again I'm not trying to compare Hiruzen to anyone at all, so you don't need to go through the whole thing of putting him in a battle against anyone.

And you know what, this isn't gonna be a useful argument in anyway, the thing here is :

Based on feats = Madara stomps both of them.

Based on hype (and i mean straight up hype from K-man) = Hashirama stomps Madara and then get stomped by Hiruzen.

Even I, in no way think that Hiruzen would win, but that's what K-man been shoving down our throats with all that hype.

But you know what, since I myself aren't convinced that Hiruzen could pull it off, you two win !

[marshall313]

@marshall313: No. You said that Madara said that even with the Rinnegan he could not defeat Hashirama.

I asked you to show me where Madara said this. And in BOTH PAGES that you posted Madara doesn't even say Hashirama's name!!! Do you understand what's wrong with this entire situation? You either just got caught in the most despicable lie you could've tried to sneak by with, or you really... REALLY dropped the ball on your Tagalog-to-English translation.

Even more disgusting, you said that Hashirama (the guy who couldn't put Madara down throughout the entirety of his professional career) beat him down like he was a fodder. You... you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Huh? That scans are kabuto's statement. Did I say t'was madara? You asked for manga scan on madara's and kabuto's statement, and I gave the one that kabuto's said.what's the problem with that anyway?

You're so desperate t find a scan that shown exactly that madara admitted that he was no match to hashirama?

I said that madara with rinnegan can't do a shit to hashirama, why?

Madara had the freaking rinnegan, he used his freaking meteors, and his freaking perfect susanoo, and yet what did he say? ''Only hashirama can stop me now''. ''But he's already dead''.

For me, even though madara gained the rinnegan, even though he had the freaking meteors and the perfect susanoo, hashirama could still stop him. That's madara's statement and my interpretation on that one? Hashirama is still stronger than madara.

---------- Post added December 29, 2012 at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was December 28, 2012 at 11:51 PM ----------

i have just asked this out loud



I can conclude that your conclusion is simply wrong. Maybe you'll use Tsunade's loverboy words as proof that Hashi>Madara too?

No. I don't care on his opinion.

Madara who can used some of hashirama's jutsus and had the rinnegan stated that hashirama, the man who died 50 years ago could still stop him. It wasn't just the perfect susanoo, but rather as a whole, that madara's caliber right now can be stop by hashirama.

Now, if my conclusion is wrong, then why? Does my interpretation isn't acceptable?

[enmymiguel]

the 3th hokage, stronger then madara,
ohh yea just like the 1 tails beast is stronger then the 10 tails. and minato was weaker then konohamaru.

[Exodi]

It's so incredibly illogical to say that Madara as he is right now wouldn't "do shit" to Hashirama.

I mean:
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...5-page-12.html

So, basically.....correct me if I'm wrong, please:

Hashirama was stronger Madara. That's established.
so......ET Madara w/ Rinnegan and Hashirama's abilities can't touch Hashirama?

That makes so little sense I don't even know how to argue against it.


My interpretation: The only reason Hashirama might still be able to stop an overpowered immortal zombie is because that zombie uses the Mokuton that Hashirama so beautifully developed. As it is now, Hashirama does not have the same lasting power that Madara currently has, even with his special healing abilities and what have you.

I'm not even going to touch the main point of the thread. All I have to say is WOW.

[Hakuteiken]

Well to be fair Orochimaru had no bloody idea Minato was in the DG seal, he did not even knew what that is before Sarutobi used it on his but. He just belived Minato was dead. So it does not apply here. To tell the truth even SARUTOBI belived HE stopped the 3'th coffin.
The thing is at that point in time Kishi had no idea how he is going to use this tech and that people sealed are not going to be able to be summoned. But yeah anyway you look at it you can't make the above claim.

I thought about it, but later on, didn't Kabuto point out the very same thing? How did he know of the seal if Orochimaru didn't? Maybe Orochimaru knew this failure could happen, but still wanted to give it a shot.

---------- Post added at 01:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 AM ----------

Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was perfect. He used it at 100% potential, however Kabuto simply broke the 100% limit and took it to possibly 101%. So it's not like there was anything wrong with his Edo Tensei, it's just that Kabuto went further beyond perfection. And even if we assume that Hashirama wasn't at full power, he would at least be somewhat 80-90% of his power, does that make it anymore believable for Hiruzen to defeat him ?

There is huge hole in that fight, though. Hiruzen, who was clearly not in his prime anymore fought two prime time Shinobi of Kage level, and Orochimaru, who was also not below that level, either. If this was a hypothetic battle in which Hiruzen was also in his prime, this could have been sort of believable, or at least, debatable, but the way he pulled this out, it just looked like a cheap move.
Orochimaru was almost impossible to stop by that time. That's why fellow Konoha Shinobi wished Minato was there, as he was the only one that could stop Orochimaru at that point.

It's not about winning the debate or not. I just can't seem to see bringing all these pieces together without violating consistency (=

[Cyrs]

Yeah.... who knows at this point?

I think a lot of things in the manga have been thrown out the window, so it's hard to form a coherent argument with supporting evidence. Because something from the earlier part of the story will clash with something later.

Could be. If Madara and Hashirama are now super-badass, Kishi could very well make the 3rd even MORE badass in some other flashback, you know?

But... you know what? I really don't dwell on such things in Naruto anymore!

[xXan]

@KingOfNight

That not what the point of my argument here. Again I'm not trying to compare Hiruzen to anyone at all, so you don't need to go through the whole thing of putting him in a battle against anyone.

And you know what, this isn't gonna be a useful argument in anyway, the thing here is :

Based on feats = Madara stomps both of them.

Based on hype (and i mean straight up hype from K-man) = Hashirama stomps Madara and then get stomped by Hiruzen.

Even I, in no way think that Hiruzen would win, but that's what K-man been shoving down our throats with all that hype.

But you know what, since I myself aren't convinced that Hiruzen could pull it off, you two win !

W8, w8 Hashirama would stomp Madara? You people really make me go "wtf". The EMS version of Madara was just about EQUAL to Hashirama, they had a lot of battles ending in DRAWS. Then 1 last, long battle where Hashirama finaly defeated Madara be a hair... Where do you people get this Hashirama turning Madara into a fodder (some other guy said this)or stomping him? Then Hiruzen stomping Hashirama? Even asuming he is stronger by no means he is stomping anything.
Also you fail to take into account diferent counter that people have. If you do not have a good counter to Amaterasu like Raikage then you die and you are not able to do shit.
How is Sarutobi even getting passed Hashirama's INSANE regen if he does not decide to kill himself?

You know its posible for Madara>Sarutobi>Hashirama>Madara considering that Sarutobi does not have the exact tools Hashirama has. Just because Hashirama can put down Madara and Sarutobi can put down Hashirama it does not mean Sarutobi can put down Madara.

Now based on hype, CURENT hype Madara was INVINCIBLE if you do NOT put Hashirama into the ecuacion. Nobody but HASHIRAMA could stop him.

This here is a clear indication of Kishi changing shit as the manga whent on. He needed Madara to be THAT good and for that Hashirama needed to be God of shinobi and that is what he is now.

@Hakuteiken

I thought about it, but later on, didn't Kabuto point out the very same thing? How did he know of the seal if Orochimaru didn't? Maybe Orochimaru knew this failure could happen, but still wanted to give it a shot.

It was made clear that Orochimaru did not know the DG seal. Sarutobi himself said so and Oro confirmed it. Obviously AFTER it was used on Orochimaur he knew about it... Then Orochimaur simply told Kabuto about it. Orochimaru simply did not know at that time he tried to pull Minato that the DG seal existed, then after he himself got hit by it he obvliously knew about it and informed Kabuto to.

[NinjaStar]

@marshall313: No. You said that Madara said that even with the Rinnegan he could not defeat Hashirama.

I asked you to show me where Madara said this. And in BOTH PAGES that you posted Madara doesn't even say Hashirama's name!!! Do you understand what's wrong with this entire situation? You either just got caught in the most despicable lie you could've tried to sneak by with, or you really... REALLY dropped the ball on your Tagalog-to-English translation.

Even more disgusting, you said that Hashirama (the guy who couldn't put Madara down throughout the entirety of his professional career) beat him down like he was a fodder. You... you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

To be fair, Hashirama was the successor to the younger son of the sage, the embodiment of love. While it is true that he fought in many battles im sure he took no joy in them, and its probably why he was the one to suggest the alliance, in fact im sure of it. He tried to settle things peacefully and he only went all out when Madara forced his hand. Im not saying Hashirama could kill him at any time, just that you saying Hashirama going all out with intent to kill every time isn't necessarily true.

@Topic

People say that Tsunade is the weakest kage ever but based on feats i honestly think she would beat Sarutobi's ass.