The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[Hakuteiken]

Not that I really love going deep into databook numbers, but, let's see.

More or less, he is the only character with 5 maxed out categories. Now can you name one character (Aside from EDO Madara) that can beat his perfection in his prime ?

Uchiha Itachi.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Itachi_Uchiha#Stats

This, with his severe illness draining his chakra, leaving him without physical strength and stamina. Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Intelligence, Speed, Hand Seals maxed out. 5 maxed out categories, like Hiruzen.

But that means nothing. I would definitely not give Itachi a 5/5 at speed. So, if we are to give him a 5, then, what would be Raikage's level of speed? Obviously, there is a difference even between those 5/5.
Likewise, Sarutobi can't be a 5/5 Genjutsu user. He can't cope with a Sharingan user. Proof is simple. Orochimaru is listed 5/5 in Genjutsu, and couldn't do anything against Itachi.
Perhaps more interestingly, Jiraiya is given 3/5 in Genjutsu. He could use Frog Song as a powerful Genjutsu and knows how to break free out of Genjutsu to a level, so, he is definitely not inferior to Orochimaru in that respect, if not superior.

All in all, databooks are so irrelevant to the story at this point that I bet I could come up with better stats than the books include for you, although it will definitely take some time.

[KingOfNight]

@KingOfNight


Thing is Kishi never said the things you claimed. The manga curently claims something completly diferet, the manga curently is SHOWING something completly diferent.

You are claiming in essence that Sarutobi in his prime could defeat all the kages put togeder... In essence you are claiming Kishi would know from part 1 what he would do in part 2...

Did I ever say he could defeat all Kages combined ? I just said he is the strongest Hokage which again was said by Kishimoto in the first Databook. How can you still say he didn't say this ?

So you are telling me manga evidence where Madara/Hashirama are direcly showed and not implied (with a perhaps) to be stronger then 5 Kages put togeder is of no use?

Does it say anything about Sarutobi's strength ? No. It's useless.

Because he mostly tells fans what they whant to hear? About the fact that he LIES as long as its a good thing for the manga? He hypes things as long as they are good for the manga?

You first claim to know the manga better than it's author, and now you claim to know the author better than himself ? Is that supposed to be funny ? Because nobody's laughing. How is saying Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage is good for the manga, unless it's a fact ? You're telling me, the fans want to hear that the old man that was dead 400 chapters ago is the strongest man in the universe ? That's what the fans want to hear ? Well, that's certainly NOT what YOU want to hear. And the last murderous time, he was not forced to answer such a thing (that is assuming he was asked, he could've just gave it as a fact since it's a fact section). So please spare me this whole Kishimoto is lying crap. Do you know him ? Did you write the manga with him ? Are you a manga author that was in a similar situation and resorted to unnecessary lies ? Please don't make up weird impossible to believe nonsense. No one here is willing to believe what i say but, they're not making weird , impossible to believe statements like you.

Do you know what a lie is? If you do you would know that stating X is Y when X is Z is a LIE.
He could have given a vague description and always using the word Tobi... Again if you don't belive that is a lie its easy for me to prove you rong. All i need is the definition of the word... I can post it from google if you whant. Also at that point Tobi was Madara ONLY if he decided to change it from Madara to Obito later... Thing is considering the revelation curently in the manga Tobi was at no point Madara.

That made no sense at all. Go ahead prove to me that Kishimoto was lying. And that he didn't know how the story will turn out. And not an assumption or an opinion please, just a straight up proof since you said you could prove it. If it's anything more than three lines, then i will take it as an opinion and ignore it. Since a proof can be said in one to two lines at maximum.

Anyway that "status" he gave Sarutobi has no relevance here. He did not say he was more godlike then Hashirama or Madara... Even Nagato was called a GOD and this time in his own manga and not like some lines for his fans

It is, since he compared him to the SO6P.

Also there is nothing to lie about his past performance when he was younger... There is no evidence that in his prime he was above Madara or Hashirama

Will you have me repeat myself seven hundred time ? He WAS the strongest Hokage in the History of the leaf. First Databook page 117-119. He is stronger than Hashirama when he was in his prime. Done. That's the proof you need from the author himself.

In the end i have clear evidence FROM the manga that nobody can stop Madara BUT Hashirama (so there goes Sarutobi). That Madara/Hashirama > 5 Kages put togeder. Dan did NOT put it like a rumor or hear say like Iruka or Kabuto.

And I have the Creator of Naruto. And the manga. And the creator of Naruto again. And the manga again. Don't like anything about that ? Your problem.

Then i have Dan stating that NOBODY but Hashirama could stop Madara, not even 1 word about Sarutobi

Good for you, but does it say Sarutobi is not the strongest Hokage ? Does it say that Hashirama is ? No. And please don't reply with cries and opinions.

[Uchiha_Blood]

All in all, databooks are so irrelevant to the story at this point that I bet I could come up with better stats than the books include for you, although it will definitely take some time.

Always remember that, according to databooks, Tenten is as smart as Sasuke

You can take this info however you want

[Hakuteiken]

Always remember that, according to databooks, Tenten is as smart as Sasuke

You can take this info however you want

They are also on par in Taijutsu. They were on par in Genjutsu until Databook III.
Tenten is more intelligent than Neji.
Neji is 3/5 in hand seals, but honestly, he should be at around 0/5, since he doesn't use them. Same goes for Tenten.

Damn, I'm just stuck with those inconsistencies now

[xXan]

@KingOfNight

Did I ever say he could defeat all Kages combined ? I just said he is the strongest Hokage which again was said by Kishimoto in the first Databook

Yes you did so. If you keep on arguing he is the strongest then he must be able to do that as Madara and Hashirama can do it. If Madara/Hashirama>5 Kages then Sarutobi>Madara/Hashirama...

How can you still say he didn't say this ?

Em what i know of the databook is that the words used are "its said to be" and NOT "he is". That is NOT an afirmation of a fact. That is a asumtion.

Does it say anything about Sarutobi's strength ? No. It's useless.

"face palm" So you where not arguing with everybody over pages on how Sarutobi is the strongest of the Kages and Hokages?

You first claim to know the manga better than it's author, and now you claim to know the author better than himself ? Is that supposed to be funny ? Because nobody's laughing. How is saying Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage is good for the manga, unless it's a fact ? You're telling me, the fans want to hear that the old man that was dead 400 chapters ago is the strongest man in the universe ? That's what the fans want to hear ? Well, that's certainly NOT what YOU want to hear. And the last murderous time, he was not forced to answer such a thing (that is assuming he was asked, he could've just gave it as a fact since it's a fact section). So please spare me this whole Kishimoto is lying crap. Do you know him ? Did you write the manga with him ? Are you a manga author that was in a similar situation and resorted to unnecessary lies ? Please don't make up weird impossible to believe nonsense. No one here is willing to believe what i say but, they're not making weird , impossible to believe statements like you.

I don't. I claim to know that facts are what Kishi needs them at a point in time.
He never said Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage.

He just gave him a nice "status" no influence on his power levels. Curently we get in the manga the power of Madara and Hashirama. You are just ignoring the manga... He said something there for the fans but now he showes in the manga who where the real powerhouses.
Its also interesting that nobody is willing to belive what you say... Its usualy when you know you are wrong when everybody is saying to you the same thing.

That made no sense at all. Go ahead prove to me that Kishimoto was lying. And that he didn't know how the story will turn out. And not an assumption or an opinion please, just a straight up proof since you said you could prove it. If it's anything more than three lines, then i will take it as an opinion and ignore it. Since a proof can be said in one to two lines at maximum.

Sure no problem. Claiming Tobi is Madara is a lie when he revealed later that Tobi was Obito.

Definition of a lie:


a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

Was that what he did there when he claimed Tobi was Madara? Of course. You see you can't argue with the meaning of a word, you just can't win.

It is, since he compared him to the SO6P.

He did not. He just made a praise. Even CURENT MADARA trowing a METEORS claimed he has only a fragment of RS power for God's sake. How disperate are you?

Will you have me repeat myself seven hundred time ? He WAS the strongest Hokage in the History of the leaf. First Databook page 117-119. He is stronger than Hashirama when he was in his prime. Done. That's the proof you need from the author himself.

Link me the databook please. I seriously have no idea where you found this. I could be wrong (and it would have no real influence on what is CURENTLY in the manga) so please post it.

And I have the Creator of Naruto. And the manga. And the creator of Naruto again. And the manga again. Don't like anything about that ? Your problem.

Yes and he claimed something completly diferent (and SHOWED) in the manga contradicting anything from before. That is what you can't wrap your mind around. He showed diferently curently in the manga.
But please link me the events where it was stated, NOT ASUMED that he was the strongest. Even better show me how he can be better then Hashirama/Madara when this 2 can solo 5 Kages. Can't you see how those asumtions are direcly in contradiction with what he showed LATER in the manga?

Good for you, but does it say Sarutobi is not the strongest Hokage ? Does it say that Hashirama is ? No. And please don't reply with cries and opinions.

If he was stronger then Hashirama then he could stop madara. This is not a cry, its not an oppinion is beyong common sense. Not only me but mods and other people showed you this even in page 1 of this discussion its just that you don't what to admit you are wrong or accept it.

---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

They are also on par in Taijutsu. They were on par in Genjutsu until Databook III.
Tenten is more intelligent than Neji.
Neji is 3/5 in hand seals, but honestly, he should be at around 0/5, since he doesn't use them. Same goes for Tenten.

Damn, I'm just stuck with those inconsistencies now

Always remember that, according to databooks, Tenten is as smart as Sasuke

You can take this info however you want

LoL i did not even knew this. He sure screwed up bad lol

[Naruto2011]

This guy is obviously trolling. Current manga facts hold more weight > past manga facts. Hashiramas current power is far greater than what kishi originally portrayed it to be. I havnt posted here cuz I just knew this thread was dumb but to see it go this many pages is ridiculous. Let this guy believe his dumb idea and leave it

[KingOfNight]

xXan

Since this has turned into a proofs exchange, lets ignore all the opinions and end this already so I'm gonna skip the none important stuff (If i skip something important, remind me what it is).

He never said Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-99-13/...hapter-94.html

Done. Unless you can find me a place where Hashirama was stated to be the strongest Hokage.

. He said something there for the fans but now he showes in the manga who where the real powerhouses.

Opinion.

Sure no problem. Claiming Tobi is Madara is a lie when he revealed later that Tobi was Obito.

What is that ? Again at that time Tobi was Madara. Hiding spoilers is different from lying. Still, assuming he did lie, he had something to contradict it here. Can you prove that he lied about Sarutobi ? If you're gonna use the same logic, you will need (once again) a place where Hashirama was said to be the strongest Hokage. Bring me a source such as this. Otherwise don't waste my time.

He did not. He just made a praise. Even CURENT MADARA trowing a METEORS claimed he has only a fragment of RS power for God's sake. How disperate are you?

• Rikudou was known as "Shinobi God"; Sarutobi must have been godly. I'm desperate enough to use the word of the author, that's how desperate I am. How desperate are you for claiming the author is lying ?

Link me the databook please. I seriously have no idea where you found this. I could be wrong (and it would have no real influence on what is CURENTLY in the manga) so please post it.

Finding the 1st databook is next to impossible now, however, I assure you with this here that I'm not lying or creating anything. You can go to this wiki page, down all the way to the strongest Hokage section. It's pretty much similar discussion to this. Only difference is that they actually know when to give up to the word of the author. The wiki linked the statement of him being the strongest Hokage to again - First Databook, pages 117-119. If you can find the Databook, there is no arguing you will find this statement.

Yes and he claimed something completly diferent (and SHOWED) in the manga contradicting anything from before. That is what you can't wrap your mind around. He showed diferently curently in the manga.
But please link me the events where it was stated, NOT ASUMED that he was the strongest. Even better show me how he can be better then Hashirama/Madara when this 2 can solo 5 Kages. Can't you see how those asumtions are direcly in contradiction with what he showed LATER in the manga?
If he was stronger then Hashirama then he could stop madara. This is not a cry, its not an oppinion is beyong common sense. Not only me but mods and other people showed you this even in page 1 of this discussion its just that you don't what to admit you are wrong or accept it.

Ignore.

If possible, don't reply with anything but straight up facts. I gave you two facts that he was said to be the strongest Hokage in both Manga and Databook and one fact of him being worthy of sharing the same title as the SO6P. Just reply with similar facts.

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------

This guy is obviously trolling. Current manga facts hold more weight > past manga facts. Hashiramas current power is far greater than what kishi originally portrayed it to be. I havnt posted here cuz I just knew this thread was dumb but to see it go this many pages is ridiculous. Let this guy believe his dumb idea and leave it

Ignored for the lack of proof.

[Naruto2011]

Your so called prop comes from unreliable old databook and part 1, every one is showing proof from recent events, what you say holds no substance

[xXan]

@KingOfNight

http://www.mangareader.net/93-99-13/...hapter-94.html

Done. Unless you can find me a place where Hashirama was stated to be the strongest Hokage.

Huh? He was said to be. Its not HE WAS. Do yo know the diference? Hope you do... 1 is an asumtion and the other is an afirmation.

Then that comes from IRUKA... One who was not even around back then... One who was close to fodder.

What you presented here is NOT indication of what you claimed.

What is that ? Again at that time Tobi was Madara. Hiding spoilers is different from lying. Still, assuming he did lie, he had something to contradict it here. Can you prove that he lied about Sarutobi ? If you're gonna use the same logic, you will need (once again) a place where Hashirama was said to be the strongest Hokage. Bring me a source such as this. Otherwise don't waste my time.

A lie is a lie. He lied for that is what it was needed for his manga. He could have not answer or give a shallow one that demonstrated nothing. People do that all the time.

Its nothing to prove as he did not say about Sarutobi what you claimed. Then its nothing for me to prove wrong as he himself did that curently in the manga.

I and a LOT of other have been giving you evidence for a great number of pages, 9 to be more exact but you refuse or are unable to comprehend them.

• Rikudou was known as "Shinobi God"; Sarutobi must have been godly. I'm desperate enough to use the word of the author, that's how desperate I am. How desperate are you for claiming the author is lying ?

That is not comparing his power to that of RS. That is making a simple praise with no real effect on the curent status of the manga. If you think Sarutobi is anywhere close to even ET Madara with wood element, RINNEGAN, towering Susano, army of Susanos, wood dragons, biju's and other insane crep you are just delusional. Now this Madara said to have only a small fragment of RS's power... To compare him to that its mind boggling.

Finding the 1st databook is next to impossible now, however, I assure you with this here that I'm not lying or creating anything. You can go to this wiki page, down all the way to the strongest Hokage section. It's pretty much similar discussion to this. Only difference is that they actually know when to give up to the word of the author. The wiki linked the statement of him being the strongest Hokage to again - First Databook, pages 117-119. If you can find the Databook, there is no arguing you will find this statement.

oh yes i could find and what i remember from the databook is the same thing as everywhere else. The words are "he was said to be". That is not HE WAS.

Ignore.

If possible, don't reply with anything but straight up facts. I gave you two facts that he was said to be the strongest Hokage in both Manga and Databook and one fact of him being worthy of sharing the same title as the SO6P. Just reply with similar facts.

The only one who does not whant to accept this facts is you. All the people here point just about the same damn things but to you this are not facts... These ARE facts that people have been trowing at you for 9 damn pages.

[KingOfNight]

Your so called prop comes from unreliable old databook and part 1, every one is showing proof from recent events, what you say holds no substance

Proofs and feats are different in case you can't tell. Can you tell me how being old means it's negated ?

[xXan]

Proofs and feats are different in case you can't tell. Can you tell me how being old means it's negated ?

Try the 9 pages in this topic.

[KingOfNight]

@KingOfNight




Huh? He was said to be. Its not HE WAS. Do yo know the diference? Hope you do... 1 is an asumtion and the other is an afirmation.

What's your point ? He was said to be the strongest Hokage. How does that nullify the fact that he was recognized by the shinobi world as the strongest Hokage ? Who said that ? Some lying kid in the street ? Using that as an argument is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. Even though i saw this kind of threads everywhere.

That is not comparing his power to that of RS. That is making a simple praise with no real effect on the curent status of the manga.

He said "he must have been godly". What does that mean to you ? Isn't what Madara saying about Hashirama is all praise if we go by this logic ?

The only one who does not whant to accept this facts is you. All the people here point just about the same damn things but to you this are not facts... These ARE facts that people have been trowing at you for 9 damn pages.

Facts and feats are different, you have been giving me but feats for FREAKING MADARA (who has nothing to do with this) and somehow made them into facts.

Excuse me for taking what the author said over a bunch of random people. Excuse the translators in the wiki for being delusional as well.

[xXan]

@KingOfNight


There is a diference from stating "he was said to be" i keep telling you this. It was a RUMOR that Iruka got from hearsay. Its in no way a fact. Nagato was said to be GOD, Konan was called an ANGEL OF GOD. Seriously learn to tell hype, metaphors and praise.

Madara is not only praising Hashirama and stating how everybody after him where worms BUT Madara is also showing what Hashirama and himself can do, he 1 shoot the 5 kages with polen and only "will of fire" plot no jutsu saved them. He put them all down and snaped Tsunade in half with wood element roots. He was PLAYING around with the Kages when he poped perfect Susano. Madara not only stated facts but he also backed so called facts with FEATS.

Madara is displaying Hashirama's jutsus and power. His ability with wood element if anything is inferior to that of Hashirama. The random people as you call them are using the manga and what Kishi showed curently in it.

[KingOfNight]

@KingOfNight


There is a diference from stating "he was said to be" i keep telling you this. It was a RUMOR that Iruka got from hearsay. Its in no way a fact. Nagato was said to be GOD, Konan was called an ANGEL OF GOD. Seriously learn to tell hype, metaphors and praise.

Madara is not only praising Hashirama and stating how everybody after him where worms BUT Madara is also showing what Hashirama and himself can do, he 1 shoot the 5 kages with polen and only "will of fire" plot no jutsu saved them. He put them all down and snaped Tsunade in half with wood element roots. He was PLAYING around with the Kages when he poped perfect Susano. Madara not only stated facts but he also backed so called facts with FEATS.

Madara is displaying Hashirama's jutsus and power. His ability with wood element if anything is inferior to that of Hashirama. The random people as you call them are using the manga and what Kishi showed curently in it.

Did you not hear me ? I said :

Just reply with similar facts.

If you don't have any solid facts, say so. It's not like your argument will be invalid if you say so, I will just stop wasting time. You don't even need to submit to Kishimoto's word. I don't care anymore.

Again with Iruka...

Yes Iruka was also the one who wrote the Databooks. He is the translator of the wiki. He also is Kishimoto in disguise.

[xXan]

@KingOfNight


Fine whatever, belive what you feel. Now you are just wasting our time at this point. You can have your point and the rest the world will be just fine having the other.