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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #316
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Madara can not use infinite Tsumyoki?

    Quote Originally Posted by pera2 View Post
    good inspection. Now question is why Madara died at all? He could have him self ETed by someone, and work with Obito all the time. For example, Oro worked for Akatsuki/Obito for some time, he could ET Madara and have him included in the game of collecting bijus.

    ---------- Post added at 05:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------

    But Madara definitely didn't planed to be ET, but revived properly, so theres a good question why? What is his 'weakness' in ET mode?
    Simple, if he died and then revived he would be an old man.
    Kabuto, and Kabuto only had the capacities to resurrect him into his prime, modifying and improving his body.
    Let's not forget that Edo Tensei revives you on the time of your death, and seeing as Madara awakened the Rin'negan only as an old man, it was disadvantegous either way:

    -if he killed himself when he was young, he would have "only" EMS, and the whole plan wouldn't even exist, since he wouldn't have neither the Rin'negan nor Gedo Mazo.
    -if he killed himself when he was old, he would have the Rin'negan and Gedo Mazo, but he would have a weak body and probably a way smaller chakra pool as well.

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  3. #317
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    Re: Madara can not use infinite Tsumyoki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Simple, if he died and then revived he would be an old man.
    Kabuto, and Kabuto only had the capacities to resurrect him into his prime, modifying and improving his body.
    Let's not forget that Edo Tensei revives you on the time of your death, and seeing as Madara awakened the Rin'negan only as an old man, it was disadvantegous either way:

    -if he killed himself when he was young, he would have "only" EMS, and the whole plan wouldn't even exist, since he wouldn't have neither the Rin'negan nor Gedo Mazo.
    -if he killed himself when he was old, he would have the Rin'negan and Gedo Mazo, but he would have a weak body and probably a way smaller chakra pool as well.
    oh yes, right.

  4. #318
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Madara can not use infinite Tsumyoki?

    I wonder what the time window around 'time of death' actually is. Would be a strange technique to resurrect (and maintain) ninjas with missing limbs, heads, and holes in their stomachs.

    Good point though...

    That said, has it been stated that the Outer parh: Samsara of Heavenly Light actually has the ability to bring Madara back to how he is as an ET (Young body + Rinnengan)? It seemed to just send the souls back to the bodies that they came from...
    This opens up a whole different can of worms as to why Nagato didn't use it on his buddy (not the dog - Yahiko!), but I guess that is topic for another thread.

    I still am not sure it is so simple as you made it out to be though.
    Infinite RAGE!

  5. #319
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    Re: Madara can not use infinite Tsumyoki?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    I wonder what the time window around 'time of death' actually is. Would be a strange technique to resurrect (and maintain) ninjas with missing limbs, heads, and holes in their stomachs.

    Good point though...

    That said, has it been stated that the Outer parh: Samsara of Heavenly Light actually has the ability to bring Madara back to how he is as an ET (Young body + Rinnengan)? It seemed to just send the souls back to the bodies that they came from...
    This opens up a whole different can of worms as to why Nagato didn't use it on his buddy (not the dog - Yahiko!), but I guess that is topic for another thread.

    I still am not sure it is so simple as you made it out to be though.
    This is one of the biggest plot holes Kishi still hasn't answered to.

    We know Madara and Obito intended for Nagato to use Gedo Rinne for Madara and resurrect him, presumably at his best shape.
    If this was such a convenient jutsu however why wouldn't Nagato revive Yahiko? Or Obito Rin?
    Why would Nagato wait "for the right time"?

    My theory is that Gedo Rinne requires the more chakra the longer the body died, meaning Nagato would probably kill himself trying to resurrect Yahiko. Probably Nagato would kill himself to resurrect Madara ( maybe aided by the Bijuu's chakra ), and probably would either when all Bijuus would be under him, or when the Juubi would be resurrected.

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  7. #320
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jalix's Avatar
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    Re: Madara can not use infinite Tsumyoki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Don't think so. Obito's Six Paths of Pain were transformed back into jinchuuriki even though the tailed beasts had been removed from them before they died. So there doesn't seem to be anything that would prevent a reanimated shinobi from becoming a jinchuuriki.

    If I had to guess, I'd say that Madara knew how to cancel or resist the effects of Edo Tensei, but probably didn't know the inner workings of the technique, and didn't consider being revived through it to be ideal (it's worth noting that Kabuto has "perfected" the technique far beyond what would've been possible in Madara's time, and I assume that modifications, such as the introduction of Senju cells, were probably not possible either).

    If I had to speculate further, I'd say that he and/or Izuna probably did battle with Tobirama enough to learn how to deal with the technique. In fact, one theory I had was that Tobirama actually used it to reincarnate Izuna, of all people, because beyond the Uchiha and Senju brotherse themselves there aren't any impressive (or dramatic) candidates from that time that we've actually heard of. I like to imagine that Izuna was reincarnated and actually broke free of Tobirama's control, and went after Madara personally (revenge for fraticide and eye theft).
    I love the theory TBH. Izuna going after his older brother and betrayed by him. There's so much abotu Madara that we don't know and are expected to take at 'face value'. From what we've seen of the Uchiha, there is a sense of honor within that clan and for all of Madara's incredible power, it wasn't enough for the rest of the clan to turn it's back on him. ALways made me wonder if there was something beyond just the power play that happened.

    But Tobirama too... he knew how to use Edo Tensei AND S/T jutsu. Orochimaru learned quite a bit about the jutsu of ET while Minato learned a lot about S/T jutsu... which seems to be a natural ability of certain Uchiha MS.

  8. #321
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    Re: Madara can not use infinite Tsumyoki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    This is one of the biggest plot holes Kishi still hasn't answered to.

    We know Madara and Obito intended for Nagato to use Gedo Rinne for Madara and resurrect him, presumably at his best shape.
    If this was such a convenient jutsu however why wouldn't Nagato revive Yahiko? Or Obito Rin?
    Why would Nagato wait "for the right time"?

    My theory is that Gedo Rinne requires the more chakra the longer the body died, meaning Nagato would probably kill himself trying to resurrect Yahiko. Probably Nagato would kill himself to resurrect Madara ( maybe aided by the Bijuu's chakra ), and probably would either when all Bijuus would be under him, or when the Juubi would be resurrected.
    Didn't Nagato say he was "still in time" to revive those Konoha people while using Gedo Rinne Tensei on them?
    I think Madara purely speculated on the power of Rinne Tensei by expecting to get revived by the aid of it. There is no way he had that much knowledge about Rinnegan, because he had just awakened it before his death. He didn't master the Rinnegan.
    Apparently, Nagato wasn't able to use Rinne Tensei at the time Yahiko died.
    I wonder when and where he did learn about this jutsu.

  9. #322
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    The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Why is the 3rd Hokage is POSSIBLY Stronger than Madara?
    Simply because he surpassed the 1st and 2nd Hokage he was also called the God of Shinobi
    during his Era he was the strongest of all Kage,PROBABLY surpassing Onoki,3rd Raikage and the others who knows.Even in his Old Age he didn't lose composure fighting with Orochimaru with 1st and 2nd Hokage,and it was stated in his battle with orochimaru that it was different compared to his prime probably cuz of age gap yes.But since Madara got a hold of EMS and Rinnegan + Jubi +Reversed Edo Tensei it would probably be a different story now and I dont even fukin know why he surpassed the 1st if he Madara said the 1st doesn't need hand signs to heal himself. I was like wtf and yeh if Madara said only Hashirama can beat him then wtf the 3rd hokage hasn't done much shit yet then why is he called God of Shinobi (Btw the guy who called him that dude Iruka)


    I got the idea here:http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hiruzen_Sarutobi
    Last edited by King of Anime; December 28, 2012 at 03:24 AM.

  10. #323
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Madara would 1 shoot him... That is after he would stop laughting.

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  12. #324
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    He only fought an incomplete binding of Edo Tensei and won the battle for his village with a sacrificial sealing jutsu against senseless puppets.
    When was it stated that Hiruzen did ever surpass his Sensei?

  13. #325
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Oh god, this again.

    Kishi's old word that no longer holds any significance in terms of what we've seen on screen. The Third's fight with Orochimaru is in retrospect a chuunin fight now, a fight previously described as "Kage level" by an ANBU captain, that includes Hashirama who also acted like a chuunin compared to what he should be able to do.

    Age is no excuse. Danzou fought well and was older than Sarutobi. Oonoki whom is far older than Sarutobi ever was, is kicking ass. And I deem it an impossibility for Sarutobi to counter Oonoki's Dust Release, and Sandaime Raikage's speed combined with defense + attack power. GG Kishi.

    Heck, even Dan said "the only one who can stop Madara is the First Hokage". It's not rocket science that Kishi has decided that The First > The Third ever since the Senju-Uchiha plot increased its importance.
    Last edited by 3c; December 28, 2012 at 04:33 AM.

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  15. #326
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    When was it stated that Hiruzen did ever surpass his Sensei?
    Only like every where :

    First Databook, pages 117-119

    Here.

    And here it's stated he is the strongest of all 5 Kages.
    .........................................................................................
    3c

    What you're saying makes little to no sense, Enma stated that Hiruzens ability is pathetic compared to his prime. And Orochimaru said "Even you who is know as God of the Shinobi can't overcome old age". How can you say age is not an excuse ?

    Kishimoto is clearly not willing to take back his statement as he said in the 2nd Fanbook " Rikudo sennin is known as the Shinobi God...Sarutobi must have been godly !", further showing he was not joking when he said he is the strongest among all Kages (BTW this was stated after all five kages appeared so they are no old words). Why should we think Kishimoto is trolling and not saying the truth ?

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  17. #327
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Kishi retconned Hashirama, putting him just below Rikudou Sennin.
    Even by hype, Hiruzen's worth is now useless

  18. #328
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by 3c View Post
    Oh god, this again.

    Kishi's old word that no longer holds any significance in terms of what we've seen on screen. The Third's fight with Orochimaru is in retrospect a chuunin fight now, a fight previously described as "Kage level" by an ANBU captain, that includes Hashirama who also acted like a chuunin compared to what he should be able to do.
    I don't think he was stronger than the 1st, however it's important to note that it was a different time in the manga though, early in the beginning when characters where nog yet dropping atom bombs on eachother. It's also known that he only used a fraction of his techniques, as he was forced to use a sealing jutsu.

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  20. #329
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    What you're saying makes little to no sense, Enma stated that Hiruzens ability is pathetic compared to his prime. And Orochimaru said "Even you who is know as God of the Shinobi can't overcome old age". How can you say age is not an excuse ?

    Kishimoto is clearly not willing to take back his statement as he said in the 2nd Fanbook " Rikudo sennin is known as the Shinobi God...Sarutobi must have been godly !", further showing he was not joking when he said he is the strongest among all Kages (BTW this was stated after all five kages appeared so they are no old words). Why should we think Kishimoto is trolling and not saying the truth ?
    Like Uchiha_Blood said, the power levels have clearly been retconned (more like evolved as Hiruzen's role ended EARLY in the manga). What characters like Orochimaru said back then is now irrelevant as the manga has essentially gone through what is often called "the DBZ evolution". Kishi's statement in the latest databook is worthless. He's pretty much rowing around the questions by saying that he was the strongest, when absolutely nothing indicates it. He doesn't want to admit what he said previously is now wrong, and just says "hahaha, yeah he sure must have been godly!".

    Think about it. When characters want to mention previous beasts, do they EVER mention the THIRD Hokage? No. They mention 1) Hashirama, 2) Minato, 3) Madara. No one ever mentions Hiruzen. Why is that? It's because in the current story which is 500 chapters later than when Hiruzen's so called Kage level was displayed, his Kage level is in fact chuunin level. Surely he was stronger in his prime. That means more chakra, more stamina, more speed. However the fact is he's still limited to regular element techniques.

    Just ask yourself, how would Hiruzen with no bloodline limit or special powers, who btw could have in no possible way known (used) all of Konoha's techniques due to later story restrictions (clan techniques (bloodline limits) and element restrictions), deal with people like Muu or Oonoki? Any defense he would put up, e.g. an Earth Wall, would be obliterated like nothing. Muu and Oonoki could have flown out of his reach and nuked him to the afterlife. How would he deal with A's father's speed combined with his durable body and defense? He surely was not faster, and A's father pretty much couldn't be harmed by normal techniques, which include FRS(!!).

    As for the thread's question: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/577/13
    Last edited by 3c; December 28, 2012 at 05:25 AM.

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  22. #330
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Only like every where :

    First Databook, pages 117-119

    Here.

    And here it's stated he is the strongest of all 5 Kages.
    .........................................................................................
    3c

    What you're saying makes little to no sense, Enma stated that Hiruzens ability is pathetic compared to his prime. And Orochimaru said "Even you who is know as God of the Shinobi can't overcome old age". How can you say age is not an excuse ?

    Kishimoto is clearly not willing to take back his statement as he said in the 2nd Fanbook " Rikudo sennin is known as the Shinobi God...Sarutobi must have been godly !", further showing he was not joking when he said he is the strongest among all Kages (BTW this was stated after all five kages appeared so they are no old words). Why should we think Kishimoto is trolling and not saying the truth ?
    That's what Iruka says and Iruka hasn't ever seen Shodaime or Nidaime. He just speculates. It must be because he must have heard about that from someone else, but apart from the elders, Danzou and Sandaime himself, no other elite Shinobi in the village could have possibly recognized Shodaime or Nidaime. So, his statement isn't that valuable.

    In the second link, Kabuto refers to Sandaime as the strongest because he was the Hokage. Apparently, it was an appraisal to the title of Hokage and Konoha's strength and nothing else.

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