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in this state , Hashiram could almost kill both Minato and Sarutobi with his poison Gas .... hid himself in his jungle and send 100 moukton clone .... travel in his forest .... beat a biju with one of his regular ninjestu ( Madara created wooden dragon so easily with only 2-3 hand seal ) .... barrage his moukton spear and have a regenerate tech ( oro's is like a joke compare to Hashirama's ... ) ....
so IMO if you make a team with Sandaime , Minato and Jiraya , still Hashirama could beat all of them .... ( after all they havn't super hax Dust release ... )
i think kishi intended to make Sarutobi stronger than Hashirama but he failed to show and prove it to the audience
IMO ,in the first part when Sarutobi fought 1st and 2nd Hokage ,kishi had no vision of todays fights where people easily nuke entire villages ,make hundred thousand clones or fight bijuus solo etc . so that fight only looks pathetic now , almost chuunin level
but if you compare what 1st Hokage showed back then to what mokuton can do now ,you can have a general idea of what Sarutobi is capable of
The only way Hiruzen will be considered stronger than Madara is if he's shown to be extremely powerful in the past, and nearly everyone that comes across him says he's stronger than First Hokage. Until then, majority of the power level discussion that happened in Part I is null and void, unless stated otherwise. The level that HIruzen showed against his ET sensei would get him easily killed by Madara with a simple speed blitz.
Plus, Kabuto has improved Edo Tensei significantly after Orochimaru was sealed away. His control over the jutsu was vastly superior to that of Orochimaru's back at that fight. Orochimaru was yet to discover the true nature of the jutsu despite completing it, as seen when he tried to summon Minato, although it wasn't possible. If it wasn't for Shiki Fuujin, there was no chance for Hiruzen to survive, anyway.
lol this is a funny thread. I know what your saying, yes hiruzen was known as the god of shinobi and the strongest of all the kages in his prime BUT you cant really trust kishi's words anymore... i mean like hashirama started off a regular super nin and now you need this guys cells to even compete these days, he gets like a new power up everytime madara mentions him and konohamaru beat one of the paths of pain... nuff said lol. kishi has been going back and forth changing his story so you cant really rely on the databooks you just gotta read week by week and accept things however he puts it cause at this point i dont see anyone being able to stand up to madara even if hiruzen was ninja jesus
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; December 28, 2012 at 02:29 PM.
So all of us will going to present our proof/logic as a truth and a fact. As if we're the one who created this manga.
And lastly, if we can't trust kishi's words anymore then all of the characters statement are all nonsense.
We based our manga fact from kishi's manga.
We based our logic from kishi's logic.
We based our hype from kishi's manga/hype.
We based our debates from kishi's words/manga.
And does kishi contradicting his hype to hiruzen? No. We haven't seen anything from him. We haven't seen his true caliber on why orochimaru said that he's no match to a younger hiruzen. Why would orochimaru said that? Why would kishi make that statement through oro?
Hiruzen maybe a weak from what we've seen from the manga, but for Pete's sake, we haven't seen his true caliber on his prime.
Then that big ass wood dragon, polen, a ton of wood clones... Etc. He did not use any of that, he had NO MIND. It was a puppet used very badly by Orochimaru.
Heh aside for killing himself Sarutobi can't even put him down considering Madara was comparing Tsunade's healing with his own... Tsuade is curently IN HALF and saving the rest. Asuming he would use the jutsu to win as nothing else would phaze him and it would actualy connect it would be a draw so not even THEN would it be a win... Now considering the number of clones on the field from Hashirama and the fact that he can be anywhere in his roots... GL hitting him with the DG seals... Of course i have no idea how Sarutobi is doing handseals inside the polen and having an entire forest going for him constantly...
But then again just use the darkness and NOT do what a MINDLESS puppet was doing and run in with a kunai like a bloody moron. CRUSH HIM like a BUG with wood element when he can't see shit.
I am sorry but by any LOGICAL deduction Sarutobi can't even put up a fight.. Winning is out of the question completly.
2 Nagato was direcly controled by Kabuto so it was kabuto directing him. He used ALL his abilities to the max. Nothing even close to what Orochimaru was doing with the first. The first and second Hokage's where on robot mode and fighting very badly might i add. In essence it was Kabuto with Nagato's powers... Even worse then Nagato with his own mind.... Kabuto is WAY more tactical then Nagato.
3 Then he had to KILL himself to even achive anything as he was getting owned. If not for the plot seal he would be dead now.
Nop, its this guy:
Madara was invincible even before he was ET. Tsuck asked him( well Obito) why does he even play in the shadows if he really is Madara as he would defeat them by just fighting. That question Obito answered that he was injured from his fight with Hashirama... So even the living EMS one was to much for the alliance... You can deduce from that... There is no way Sarutobi would even come close to that power.
The thing is at that point in time Kishi had no idea how he is going to use this tech and that people sealed are not going to be able to be summoned. But yeah anyway you look at it you can't make the above claim.
Originally Posted by marshall313
I demand to see where any of this fanfiction bullshit was said. Right now. Show me the exact page in the manga where anything even half resembling this is said.
Madara who had the rinnegan, who had the perfect susanoo and the meteor just stated that only hashirama can stop him now. As in now in his current power. The way he hailed hashirama's name, the way he defined hashirama's power, yea, I can conclude hashirama is still superior to madara.
I know stopping someone doesn't really mean that he can really defeat him. But from madara's case, the way he said this ''only hashirama can stop him now but d he's already dead'' argument is an indication that hashirama can stop/defeat him.
Maybe I'm wrong or right. But from kabuto's opinion, who even researched madara's body/power, came into conclusion that
Madara's power is a legendary
Hashirama's power is a myth just like the rikudou sennin himself.
i have just asked this out loudQuote:
I can conclude that your conclusion is simply wrong. Maybe you'll use Tsunade's loverboy words as proof that Hashi>Madara too?Quote:
Last edited by IChallengeYou!; December 28, 2012 at 08:48 PM.
@marshall313: No. You said that Madara said that even with the Rinnegan he could not defeat Hashirama.
I asked you to show me where Madara said this. And in BOTH PAGES that you posted Madara doesn't even say Hashirama's name!!! Do you understand what's wrong with this entire situation? You either just got caught in the most despicable lie you could've tried to sneak by with, or you really... REALLY dropped the ball on your Tagalog-to-English translation.
Even more disgusting, you said that Hashirama (the guy who couldn't put Madara down throughout the entirety of his professional career) beat him down like he was a fodder. You... you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was perfect. He used it at 100% potential, however Kabuto simply broke the 100% limit and took it to possibly 101%. So it's not like there was anything wrong with his Edo Tensei, it's just that Kabuto went further beyond perfection. And even if we assume that Hashirama wasn't at full power, he would at least be somewhat 80-90% of his power, does that make it anymore believable for Hiruzen to defeat him ?Quote:
That not what the point of my argument here. Again I'm not trying to compare Hiruzen to anyone at all, so you don't need to go through the whole thing of putting him in a battle against anyone.
And you know what, this isn't gonna be a useful argument in anyway, the thing here is :
Based on feats = Madara stomps both of them.
Based on hype (and i mean straight up hype from K-man) = Hashirama stomps Madara and then get stomped by Hiruzen.
Even I, in no way think that Hiruzen would win, but that's what K-man been shoving down our throats with all that hype.
But you know what, since I myself aren't convinced that Hiruzen could pull it off, you two win !
You're so desperate t find a scan that shown exactly that madara admitted that he was no match to hashirama?
I said that madara with rinnegan can't do a shit to hashirama, why?
Madara had the freaking rinnegan, he used his freaking meteors, and his freaking perfect susanoo, and yet what did he say? ''Only hashirama can stop me now''. ''But he's already dead''.
For me, even though madara gained the rinnegan, even though he had the freaking meteors and the perfect susanoo, hashirama could still stop him. That's madara's statement and my interpretation on that one? Hashirama is still stronger than madara.
---------- Post added December 29, 2012 at 12:22 AM ---------- Previous post was December 28, 2012 at 11:51 PM ----------
Madara who can used some of hashirama's jutsus and had the rinnegan stated that hashirama, the man who died 50 years ago could still stop him. It wasn't just the perfect susanoo, but rather as a whole, that madara's caliber right now can be stop by hashirama.
Now, if my conclusion is wrong, then why? Does my interpretation isn't acceptable?
Last edited by marshall313; December 28, 2012 at 11:58 PM.