The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[Uchiha_Blood]

Dan's personal opinion vs Kishi's very statement. It's like Shikamaru's dada said (about legends).

Not only Dan was someone who witnessed Hiruzen's prime ( having the same age of Tsunade ), but his opinion is reinforced by Kabuto's own.
Even by itself, Dan's statement has way more weight than Iruka's, since Iruka was only a noob Chuunin who saw Hiruzen only as an old man.

And again, that was Part 1, this is Part 2

[Impossibility]

This argument is meaningless. Sarutobi is as powerful as Kishi decides he is. During Part 1, it was obvious from the fact that Sarutobi had to face off against both Shodaime and Niidaime that Kishi intended for his title of 'God of Shinobi' to hold some meaning. In Part 2, we saw that what Sarutobi showed was short of being a joke compared to the heavyweights out there, even individuals from his own generation. Bloodlines and monsters make ninjas in Part 2, and Sarutobi is clearly lacking in that department. Kishi gave Sarutobi legend status, but the manga, and the world, moved forward and Sarutobi was left stagnant. This argument comes down to the inconsistencies of Kishi's storytelling. Sarutobi's battle against Sho and Nii was meant to be epic, but as the manga grew the scope of techniques followed. Now any jounin with half decent talent is pulling off techniques that match those of Sarutobi. Maybe some day Kishi is going to give us a decent flahback of Sandaime in action so that he catches up, but at the moment we are left with Sarutobi looking like nothing more than a relic during his battle. What has happened with Sarutobi is the same that has happened with others as the manga moved on. Zabuza was supposedly some dangerous jounin, but any of the rookies could probably stomp him at this point. Unfortunately for Sarutobi and Zabuza, and others that died early on, they missed out on the overpowered battles of the current Naruto.

[KingOfNight]

This argument is meaningless. Sarutobi is as powerful as Kishi decides he is. During Part 1, it was obvious from the fact that Sarutobi had to face off against both Shodaime and Niidaime that Kishi intended for his title of 'God of Shinobi' to hold some meaning. In Part 2, we saw that what Sarutobi showed was short of being a joke compared to the heavyweights out there, even individuals from his own generation. Bloodlines and monsters make ninjas in Part 2, and Sarutobi is clearly lacking in that department. Kishi gave Sarutobi legend status, but the manga, and the world, moved forward and Sarutobi was left stagnant. This argument comes down to the inconsistencies of Kishi's storytelling. Sarutobi's battle against Sho and Nii was meant to be epic, but as the manga grew the scope of techniques followed. Now any jounin with half decent talent is pulling off techniques that match those of Sarutobi. Maybe some day Kishi is going to give us a decent flahback of Sandaime in action so that he catches up, but at the moment we are left with Sarutobi looking like nothing more than a relic during his battle. What has happened with Sarutobi is the same that has happened with others as the manga moved on. Zabuza was supposedly some dangerous jounin, but any of the rookies could probably stomp him at this point. Unfortunately for Sarutobi and Zabuza, and others that died early on, they missed out on the overpowered battles of the current Naruto.

Well said man

[xXan]

@Impossibility


For the last time Sarutobi did NOT had to fight Hashirama and Tobirama... He had to fight 2 brain dead retards using mostly taijutsu and kunai's. Curently Naruto needed and army of himself + huge rasengan + Kurama infusion to stop even 1 wave of Mokuton roots coming his way. How about polen? Dragon? How about TACTICS? Nothing like that existed. Why the bloody hell would you trow that genjutsu at Sarutobi go in with Kunai's? He could summon a bloody forest and crust Sarutobi easy... Again brain DEAD Hokages.

But i do agree with the rest.

[M3J]

There is huge hole in that fight, though. Hiruzen, who was clearly not in his prime anymore fought two prime time Shinobi of Kage level, and Orochimaru, who was also not below that level, either. If this was a hypothetic battle in which Hiruzen was also in his prime, this could have been sort of believable, or at least, debatable, but the way he pulled this out, it just looked like a cheap move.
Orochimaru was almost impossible to stop by that time. That's why fellow Konoha Shinobi wished Minato was there, as he was the only one that could stop Orochimaru at that point.

It's not about winning the debate or not. I just can't seem to see bringing all these pieces together without violating consistency (=

But Orochimaru himself said that if Hiruzen was ten years younger, he could have defeated Orochimaru. Which leads us to believe he'd have done much better against Hashirama and Tobirama, but that fight shouldn't be taken as an indication of strenght. All we got was a slight glimpse of what both -Rama could do, and just how much power Hiruzen lost due to age. Throughout the fight you have so many people saying that Hiruzen was nowhere near the level he was, if he was younger he'd have won, and etc.


Only reason why HIruzen and Anko mentioned Minato is because of Hiruzen's old age rendering him unable to beat Orochimaru, whereas Minato would have had a better chance. If HIruzen was younger, then he wouldn't have mentioned Minato. Besides, I don't think HIruzen or Minato could kill White Snake Orochimaru, not without sacrificing themselves anyway.

I'm not convinced Hashirama could stop Edo Madara, I do think he can stop EMS Madara however, they are probably pretty close in power, I would say Hiruzen is a step below that with the 2nd Hokage under him.

I do not believe Hiruzen could defeat Hashirama but I do believe both he and Minato could hold their own in that group of power houses, you can't take what we saw then VS what we saw now, words are important, all dialogue implies people like Minato and Hiruzen could fall under that tier of power with Madara and the like, you have to account for the fact that Kishi's art and thoughts have changed over the years, do you think if Madara was fighting around when the Chuunin exam happened, that it would be anything like today?

No, the power was scaled on an entirely different level, it doesn't mean the dead characters all magically got stronger per say, it means their power is displayed differently.

You can't put Minato on the same tier of power with Madara and others, though. Minato hasn't shown that kind of power, it's his speed and Hiraishin that make him dangerous. Hashirama and Madara can stop bijuu with their power (Mokuton or SUsano'o) and cause widespread destruction. As far as we know about Hiruzen, neither he nor Minato can do the same.

That's false. Kishi mentioned Minato & Sarubobi being the strongest dead ninjas.

So what? Stop using interviews or databooks to back your beliefs up, use the manga. Manga actions can't be contradicted, but anything Kishi says in an interview or writes in databooks or has characters say can be contradicted. Kishi can have Minato say Itachi would beat him, but show that Minato is more powerful than Itachi and hint that Minato could beat Itachi. WHat are you gonna believe? Minato's statement or actions that show Minato could beat Itachi?

What Kishi says in an interview is meaningless, because he can write the opposite without breaking continuity.




Anyway, I don't think it's fair to judge HIruzen's strength. I'm sure if we saw him in action now during his prime, he'd be shown much stronger and better, able to rival most kage. At least, Kishi hopefully writes it that way to keep up with statements in Part I. It's like, in Part II all hokage but Hashirama and Minato were forgotten. Minato's only been mentioned for his speed, while Hashirama's been mentioned for his power and everything.

[ninjabot]

Hishirama is in fact capable of stopping Madara (it doesn't mean he is stronger now but he is capable of stopping him). From Madara's own words, you should understand that.
"I told you already, only Hashirama is capable of stopping me". http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-cha...89-page-7.html

He said only Hashirama is capable of stopping him. Not "Even now that I'm a fucking immortal with access to the Rinnegan Hashirama is the only person capable fo stopping me."

@marshall313: You're lying again. This is what you said:

Madara who had the rinnegan, who had the perfect susanoo and the meteor just stated that only hashirama can stop him now. As in now in his current power. The way he hailed hashirama's name, the way he defined hashirama's power, yea, I can conclude hashirama is still superior to madara.

First you said that Madara said that only Hashirama can stop him NOW. Which was wrong. Then I said prove it, and you showed TWO scans where Madara doesn't even mention Hashirama. THEN when I called you on it, you said "No, I said Kabuto said it!" to try to downplay being caught. And unsurprisingly that was a lie aswell. The closest thing to what you're trying to say was posted by Kay3795, and he was just as wrong as you were.

So drop it.

[Hakuteiken]

He said only Hashirama is capable of stopping him. Not "Even now that I'm a fucking immortal with access to the Rinnegan Hashirama is the only person capable fo stopping me.".

But the Kage were lucky that Hashirama wasn't there, according to Madara, since the maps wouldn't have to be redrawn so drastically. That means Hashirama would at least put up a fight in that state of his and would do much, much better than the Kage team did combined.
Then again, it's not the same as he would stop Madara right there, I agree.

[IChallengeYou!]

Kay, I had enough...

Well, that's your opinion.

No. it's not my opinion, it's a fact.

But does it OK for someone to say that minato

Stop right there. You always bring Minato in everything. What does Minato has to do with this? NOTHING. But then again, like I said, you bring Minato in every discussion even he has no place in it. Especially when Uchihas are concerned. Face it, Minato is dead and is not playing any relevance in this story any more.

With this said, moving on.

is a bug compared to madara? Has he lost his credibility too?

It's OK for someone to say that minato is freaking useless to any of the uchiha, especially to sasuke? Has they lost their credibility too?

It's OK for someone to say that minato is a fodder to itachi? Does they lost their credibility too?

OK, nobody in this thread said anything remotely close to this. You pulled it outta your ass, just like the "Hashirama stomped Madara like a fodder!!!" bit. But to answer the question, yes, you would've lost credibility if you said that. But it wouldn't even be CLOSE to saying that Hashirama has beaten Madara like a fodder, when they had NUMEROUS fights and Madara was still alive and kicking while Hashirama died. What does that mean?

WE DON'T HAVE A CLUE how the fight really went. So drop your act.

If not, then saying that I lost my credibility when I said that madara is a fodder compared to hashirama is somehow a biased argument.

Biased argument is everything you post. Biased towards Minato.

Madara used the kyubi to fight hashirama? Why? Because his power isn't enough to defeat hashirama.

Durr. He was fighting a VILLAGE. And Hashirama was known to own a lot of Bijuu as well. Hurr.

Madara is just lucky on why he's still alive. While hashirama, after that fight was still alright.

Show me a scan of this. Haha, good luck.

Madara hiding on the cave for how many years? Even though hashirama is already dead.

What do you mean...hiding? Outliving Hashirama is now considered to be hiding to you?

Madara gained that rinnegan and yet he was so fond to used hashirama's jutsus, why? Because he remembered how those jutsu bitchslapped him.

See, there we go again. You lost the credibility you don't even posses anymore. Why do I even bother typing this to you then?...

The way ha hailed hashirama's name, and the way he remembering the old times together with hashirama is kinda odd. He was no doubt jealous on hashirama's power/caliber.

Are you serious? He said THESE lines "He (hashirama) was the person I hated, and the person I admired". I actually have SCAN to prove this. You, and your "theories", do not.

And lastly, the way kabuto defined hashirama's power as a myth like the rikudou is enough for me to say that their power level, even now, aren't comparable. It's just my opinion. Nothing more.

You're wrong. All there is.

That ''fodder''was specifically counter to someone's post for saying that minato is a bug. Because for God's sake, minato and hashirama are the only one who can kill madara. Not itachi and there's no way in hell that t'was sasuke.

That this and it. You specifically kept going at it again, just look at the quote for "bitchslapping" before.

A bug who can kill madara in an instant isnt a useless bug at all.

You mean Minato? Killing Madara instantly? !!!111

If that bug can't really fight madara head on, then he can seal him in an instant. End of game. Thus the bug is useless? I doubt that.

Yes. Good bye. Minato has no place in this discussion.

[Hakuteiken]

But Orochimaru himself said that if Hiruzen was ten years younger, he could have defeated Orochimaru. Which leads us to believe he'd have done much better against Hashirama and Tobirama, but that fight shouldn't be taken as an indication of strenght. All we got was a slight glimpse of what both -Rama could do, and just how much power Hiruzen lost due to age. Throughout the fight you have so many people saying that Hiruzen was nowhere near the level he was, if he was younger he'd have won, and etc.

Well, indeed, we never got to see how prime Hiruzen would fight in that situation. But I can't really keep up with the ages anymore. What is the threshold that age really starts taking effect? Sannin and Raikage are above their fifties and not slowing down. Oonoki is even far more aged and apart from the back aches he has, he has showed excellent combat abilities.
That makes me wonder why Hiruzen was shown to be the only one effected by aging. Hanzou was also weakened over time for all we know, but it was not due to age. It was because him getting rusty after losing his will to fight for his ideals.

You are right. He was forced to come out of retirement, after all.

[ninjabot]

But the Kage were lucky that Hashirama wasn't there, according to Madara, since the maps wouldn't have to be redrawn so drastically. That means Hashirama would at least put up a fight in that state of his and would do much, much better than the Kage team did combined.
Then again, it's not the same as he would stop Madara right there, I agree. [/quote]

Ofcourse he'd put up a fight. Technically the 5 kage were putting up a fight. Though I interpreted Madara's "redrawn maps" claim as "When me and Hashirama clash, we fight so hard that the entire battlefield for miles becomes destroyed." And because Hashirama wasn't their to contribute to the destruction, there wouldn't be as much. In other words, Madara was about to destroy them so quickly that there wouldn't be any superficial damage outside of the 1 or 2 strikes it would take to end all of the Kage.

He didn't mean "Hashirama would do more damage to the battlefield than I can". He meant "We together cause alot of damage trying to kill eachother".

[xXan]

Funny thing is that as long as you don't have a Rinnegan or no plot no jutsu you have NO way of defeating curent Madara. NONE. Does not matter the numbers.

Madara just pops perfect Susano and that is it. What can you do? Damage it? Yeah sure then Madara just repairs the damage on the fly (infinite chakra). So what are you going to do considering there is no way to get trough Susano? Well perhaps if someone with the DG seal existed and that crep could go trough Susano but as it is...

Seriously Kishi is going to need some serious plot no jutsu to put Madara down...

[Hakuteiken]

Ofcourse he'd put up a fight. Technically the 5 kage were putting up a fight. Though I interpreted Madara's "redrawn maps" claim as "When me and Hashirama clash, we fight so hard that the entire battlefield for miles becomes destroyed." And because Hashirama wasn't their to contribute to the destruction, there wouldn't be as much. In other words, Madara was about to destroy them so quickly that there wouldn't be any superficial damage outside of the 1 or 2 strikes it would take to end all of the Kage.

He didn't mean "Hashirama would do more damage to the battlefield than I can". He meant "We together cause alot of damage trying to kill eachother".

We never saw the fight afer Madara pulled out the Perfect Susano'o, so, it could be assumed it was over pretty quickly.
I didn't really try to state he would be more destructive, either. I just referred to those words because that meant Madara acknowledging Hashirama's vast strength once again. Otherwise, of course, it can't be argued that Hashirama could have done something on the scale of the Rinnegan. It's just that he would fare better and possibly push him hard into using his Rinnegan, something the Kage were unable to do (by assumption).

---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------

Funny thing is that as long as you don't have a Rinnegan or no plot no jutsu you have NO way of defeating curent Madara. NONE. Does not matter the numbers.

Madara just pops perfect Susano and that is it. What can you do? Damage it? Yeah sure then Madara just repairs the damage on the fly (infinite chakra). So what are you going to do considering there is no way to get trough Susano? Well perhaps if someone with the DG seal existed and that crep could go trough Susano but as it is...

Seriously Kishi is going to need some serious plot no jutsu to put Madara down...

Orochimaru or Kabuto to come back and bind him in Edo Tensei's contract somehow.
I'd put my money on this weak theory.

[xXan]

@Hakuteiken


Kabuto/Oro would need some insane plot no jutsu to get trough Madara's defences...

[M3J]

Well, indeed, we never got to see how prime Hiruzen would fight in that situation. But I can't really keep up with the ages anymore. What is the threshold that age really starts taking effect? Sannin and Raikage are above their fifties and not slowing down. Oonoki is even far more aged and apart from the back aches he has, he has showed excellent combat abilities.
That makes me wonder why Hiruzen was shown to be the only one effected by aging. Hanzou was also weakened over time for all we know, but it was not due to age. It was because him getting rusty after losing his will to fight for his ideals.

You are right. He was forced to come out of retirement, after all.

Realistically, I think it's because Kishi wanted to keep things real back then, and now it's different. Back then, we'd have seen Oonoki severely affected by his age, or Hiruzen now not be as affected by his age as he was. Though, you can also attribute Hiruzen not training or keeping his body in top shape like Oonoki might have as a major contribution to him getting weaker.





And I seriously laugh at anyone who thinks Minato can beat Hashirama or Madara. You'd have to be horribly deluded and blind to even entertain that thought. He has no place in this discussion anyway, he's irrelevant and has been ever since he died.

[shahdan]

I believe Kishimoto really dropped the ball with this one. EMS Madara would kill the man we saw fighting - or even assume his prime with improved physical prowess - with the monstrous foot of his Perfect Sussano, the only thing he'll leave behind would be a splatted Hizuren.