The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[marshall313]

He said only Hashirama is capable of stopping him. Not "Even now that I'm a fucking immortal with access to the Rinnegan Hashirama is the only person capable fo stopping me."

@marshall313: You're lying again. This is what you said:



First you said that Madara said that only Hashirama can stop him NOW. Which was wrong. Then I said prove it, and you showed TWO scans where Madara doesn't even mention Hashirama. THEN when I called you on it, you said "No, I said Kabuto said it!" to try to downplay being caught. And unsurprisingly that was a lie aswell. The closest thing to what you're trying to say was posted by Kay3795, and he was just as wrong as you were.

So drop it.

You're replying to my post when I said this

''Madara with rinnegan can't touch/wouldn't do shit to hashirama''

Then you said that ''how come madara with rinnegan can't defeat hashirama?

So, does wouldn't do shit is the same as ''can't defeat''?

But anyway, my point is, kabuto who did the experiment on madara's body and he knew that he had the rinnegan differentiate their power from legendary to a myth. When I said madara admitted it and even kabuto agreed is that after all madara showcase his jutsus, rinnegan's jutsus and his perfect susanoo, he admitted that only hashirama can stop him now. I don't know how you interpret that one, but for me, it's clearly a fact coming from madara that all jutsus he had shown at that moment CAn be stop by hashirama.

Madara admitted that ''only hashirama can stop him'' so my argument about madara with rinnegan wouldn't do shit to hashirama isn't just a lie. Why? Madara just admitted that.

Kabuto agreed that by stating '' hashirama is more stronger than madara'' hashirama's power is like a myth''.

Now, if you think I'm lying, then prove it by providing a scan. Prove it that when madara said that only hashirama can stop him now, it doesn't mean anything. Prove it that kabuto is lying as well. Or maybe you can enlightened me on the true meaning of kabuto's arguments about the myth to legendary.

Thanks in advance. But anyway, I'm not a Tagalog but a Muslim from Mindanao. So it should be Muslim to English translation.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 PM ----------

Horribly deluded and blind for thinking minato can defeat madara? Maybe

Minato would use his shiki fuin.

Then minato and madara died.

Is that impossible?

Hell Noh. If you think minato can't do that then you're the one who horribly deluded and blind.

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

Kay, I had enough...



No. it's not my opinion, it's a fact.



Stop right there. You always bring Minato in everything. What does Minato has to do with this? NOTHING. But then again, like I said, you bring Minato in every discussion even he has no place in it. Especially when Uchihas are concerned. Face it, Minato is dead and is not playing any relevance in this story any more.

With this said, moving on.



OK, nobody in this thread said anything remotely close to this. You pulled it outta your ass, just like the "Hashirama stomped Madara like a fodder!!!" bit. But to answer the question, yes, you would've lost credibility if you said that. But it wouldn't even be CLOSE to saying that Hashirama has beaten Madara like a fodder, when they had NUMEROUS fights and Madara was still alive and kicking while Hashirama died. What does that mean?

WE DON'T HAVE A CLUE how the fight really went. So drop your act.



Biased argument is everything you post. Biased towards Minato.



Durr. He was fighting a VILLAGE. And Hashirama was known to own a lot of Bijuu as well. Hurr.



Show me a scan of this. Haha, good luck.



What do you mean...hiding? Outliving Hashirama is now considered to be hiding to you?



See, there we go again. You lost the credibility you don't even posses anymore. Why do I even bother typing this to you then?...



Are you serious? He said THESE lines "He (hashirama) was the person I hated, and the person I admired". I actually have SCAN to prove this. You, and your "theories", do not.



You're wrong. All there is.



That this and it. You specifically kept going at it again, just look at the quote for "bitchslapping" before.



You mean Minato? Killing Madara instantly? !!!111



Yes. Good bye. Minato has no place in this discussion.

I always bring minato in every discussion? What the hell is that?

Shafagh stated in his post(#25) that jiraiya, sarutobi and MINATO couldn't defeat hashirama.

Xxan said in his post (#10) that madara would just take a big dump on all of them. Yeah, for xxan, hashirama, MINATO, sarutobi and tobirama are no match to madara.

That's why I'm replying to his/their post on regards to minato. They're the one who started to bring minato back to discussion and yet you're accussing me with that offence?

How come the four hokages are no match to madara? That's why I said that minato and hashirama dou can defeat madara. Why? Minato's shiki fuin can trash madara. Both of them would died and hashirama + minato won with ease.

If minato has no place in this discussion, tell them. They're the one who bring minato in this discussion and not me. I'm just defending minato to them, nothing more nothing less.

I'm not the same with those uchiha's fanatics. Even in real confession thread, he bring sasuke to their discussion.

[Hakuteiken]

Hashirama's power is like a myth, because he was the only Mokuton user in history, most likely aside from Rikudou Sennin, up until Orochimaru began his experiments.
Besides, he was able to control the Bijuu, without the Uchiha's well-known genjutsu.

Madara had lots of clansmen who awakened Sharingan. Although the numbers are significantly down by comparison, there were people awakening Mangekyou Sharingan, as well (i.e Madara's brother).

So, I'd say this is the reason why Hashirama was seen as a legendary figure. He was perhaps the closest thing to Rikudou Sennin at his time, and Madara couldn't match his standout figure.

And as far as winning is concerned, I doubt using a sacrificial technique to seal your opponent counts as a victory.

[xXan]

@marshall313

Xxan said in his post (#10) that madara would just take a big dump on all of them. Yeah, for xxan, hashirama, MINATO, sarutobi and tobirama are no match to madara.

Of course they are no mach. If it was about EMS Madara yes but curent IMMORTAL, unlimited chakra, no way of getting trough perfect Susano as he can repair any damage, wood ready (main tool of Hashirama), RINNEGAN, able to summon the MAZO and so on.... Yeah they are no match to him. 5 kages where nothing, he was PLAYING with them... Then once he decided he had enough... Well you got to see the page as good as the rest of us.

This is no longer just a man that Hashirama had to fight. Madara right now is something of a demigod. Hashirama can put as many swords in him (like he did before and almost killed him, or whatever it was as Madara was missing some holes in his body and replaced them with Hashirama's goo) but Madara would just laugh at him.

Now you stating Madara was fodder to Hashirama when we have clear evidence they where close to even is a joke.

If minato has no place in this discussion, tell them. They're the one who bring minato in this discussion and not me. I'm just defending minato to them, nothing more nothing less.

Actualy you are the one who keeps getting defensive any time anybody puts up the name Minato. What i did there was to show how Madara is over ALL the Hokage and not just Minato. It was not even a reply to you but of course you had to jump and defened Minato.

[EMS]

Part 1 was regular ninjas using fire,lighting, earth,water,wind and most of those techniques were and c and b level and some especial a level while they used alot combat fight(taijutsu), while using their knowledge and experience in battle as techniques such of rasengan,chidori,raikiri,shadow technique, lee taijutsu for example were techniques that were unbelievable strong for a shinobi...
Part 2 these techniques are shit compared to the god likes techniques such of rasengan shiruken, kirin,susano,amaterasu and all the aka members techniques and immortal people and then we got a bunch of kekkei genkai as rinnegan,bakuton,enton creation,futton,jinton of kekkei touta,shakuton,youton and ranton creation for example..

the only thing that i can think of is may be kishi didn't have naruto shippuden story ready while he was making part 1 if he did. kishi made a huge mistake talking about sarutobi being the stronger hokage while hashirama went from a hokage part 1 to a god like fairy tail shinobi in part 2.

[M3J]

Madara had lots of clansmen who awakened Sharingan. Although the numbers are significantly down by comparison, there were people awakening Mangekyou Sharingan, as well (i.e Madara's brother).

So, I'd say this is the reason why Hashirama was seen as a legendary figure. He was perhaps the closest thing to Rikudou Sennin at his time, and Madara couldn't match his standout figure.

And as far as winning is concerned, I doubt using a sacrificial technique to seal your opponent counts as a victory.

We don't know just how many Uchiha clansmen awakened Sharingan, though. Both Sasuke and Kakashi have said that awakening Sharingan was rare among the Uchiha, so we could assume that there were few Sharingan users in proportion to the size of the clan. We saw about five or ten Uchiha with Sharingan in the flashbacks, out of what could very well be fifty to two hundred Uchiha members.

And Madara could actually match Hashirama. we know they fought each other countless times and failed to kill the other, and even at Valley of the End Hashirama failed to kill Madara. The only match we know where there was a winner was at Valley of the End, and that was Hashirama.

It doesn't, but Minato fans are deluded and like thinking it does when in reality, Minato would get curbstomped by Hashirama and Madara so easily. Madara puts Minato in a genjutsu before Minato even does anything and finishes him with Susano'o. Or Hashirama can just use his pollen and take minato out before he even knows it, and kill him. Minato can't win, but excuses, yanno.

[Hakuteiken]

We don't know just how many Uchiha clansmen awakened Sharingan, though. Both Sasuke and Kakashi have said that awakening Sharingan was rare among the Uchiha, so we could assume that there were few Sharingan users in proportion to the size of the clan. We saw about five or ten Uchiha with Sharingan in the flashbacks, out of what could very well be fifty to two hundred Uchiha members.

And Madara could actually match Hashirama. we know they fought each other countless times and failed to kill the other, and even at Valley of the End Hashirama failed to kill Madara. The only match we know where there was a winner was at Valley of the End, and that was Hashirama.

Let's say the ratio of awakening the Sharingan amongst the Uchiha is 1%, which is very low, and possibly this ratio could be higher. Even then, since there hasn't been any other Shinobi in the history to use Mokuton, this still counts as "lots of people" in comparison.

I know. I wasn't talking about their combat capabilities. I was talking about their figure in people's eyes. Hashirama was a myth, because he was granted a godly power that had extreme life force behind it. Madara's abilities, as vast as they could be, were no match to that. And I think, this difference of figure, charisma or whatever we may refer to as that had a significant impact when it came down to choosing the first Hokage.

[M3J]

In comparison to Mokuton, yes. But even then, we don't know just how common Sharingan was. We do know that Mangekyo might have been first discovered by Madara and Izuna, so technically no Uchiha had the power to control the bijuu until the brothers came along. At least, no Uchiha that didn't have such strong chakra.

Oh, okay. I also think how they were perceived had a big role to play. Madara could have been seen as a war mongrel whereas Hashirama did want peace and fought for it. Not only that, but he could control all the bijuu and could defend Konoha well. Madara probably came across as too selfish or arrogant to put Konoha or its citizens first.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Do we really get to resort to baiting, again?
And why the hell we're discussing Yondaime's chances? Unless I'm wrong, the title says 3rd Hokage, not 4th.
So let's all be mature and drop it

Funny thing is that as long as you don't have a Rinnegan or no plot no jutsu you have NO way of defeating curent Madara. NONE. Does not matter the numbers.

Madara just pops perfect Susano and that is it. What can you do? Damage it? Yeah sure then Madara just repairs the damage on the fly (infinite chakra). So what are you going to do considering there is no way to get trough Susano? Well perhaps if someone with the DG seal existed and that crep could go trough Susano but as it is...

Seriously Kishi is going to need some serious plot no jutsu to put Madara down...

Like you said, Shiki Fuuin can

As for Madara, he can't regenerate his Susano'o instantly, as showed when the Gaikage destroyed it with Hirudora.
Though, knowing he needs a living body to become a Jinchuuriki, he'll probably be put down when he'll live again.

[M3J]

I'm not sure if Madara will be taken down that easily when alive. He'll be a lot more careful and less like an ass when he fights, and he does have Rinnegan. He can absorb chakra, he should be able to push things away, and he has Asura's robot ways to help him. The main difference is, we'll get to see if Hashirama-powered Madara can last longer than Kyuubi-powered Naruto.

Has Kishi forgotten about Hiruzen? I would love to see him in a flashback and see how strong he was. I think that's the only way we'll ever be able to figure out whether he can beat Madara or not.

[shahdan]

How does Minato pose any threat to EMS Madara or Hashirama? I have heard a lot of non-sense in this regard from Mintao fans, as to how his FTG Kunai provides some sort of radius so he can always teleport inside Sussano, how he can magically seal sussano...nothing but deluded musings of die-hard fans.

[EMS]

Sarutobi is strong but there is not way that he can take madara , madara beat the hell of a strong muu and a young oonoki and even dan commented that the only one that could defeated madara was the first hokage hashirama..
I mean besides of course as the plot is leading sasuke after a power up or naruto after full transformation of the perfect kyuubi mode or whatever the tails beast gave to naruto and obito betraying madara but it won't success and die trying..

[xXan]

Do we really get to resort to baiting, again?
And why the hell we're discussing Yondaime's chances? Unless I'm wrong, the title says 3rd Hokage, not 4th.
So let's all be mature and drop it



Like you said, Shiki Fuuin can

As for Madara, he can't regenerate his Susano'o instantly, as showed when the Gaikage destroyed it with Hirudora.
Though, knowing he needs a living body to become a Jinchuuriki, he'll probably be put down when he'll live again.

There is no evidence DG can go trough Susano. The DG hand thing showed no ability to go trough shields. Its a posibility true but who knows. Thing is if chakra shield can stop SOULS it can stop the bloody hand... Well at least i belive so. That hand can't be more then a human soul (in essence). So if a shield can stop a soul (or at least interact wit hit and delay it) then it should work with the hand to. Then of course as long as the souls fights back its not just grab and pull, its work to pull it out.

Madara's Susano was not showed to be busted. It got hit, that is it. Next Madara is showed CHILLING:
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/609/15

Not giving a f*** about what is happening.

Seriously there is no way something that could not even KO Kisame (even going trough shark jutsu) is going to anihilate MADARA'S Susano... Seriously they needed a combo from Tsunade, Raikage and Tsuck (3 Kages) to even blast part of it away.

Then of course he can't exacly instantly repair it but its damn fast... Just think how fast he can pop extra hands or whatever. Then let's keep in mind the clones that could stick on Susano's exterior just w8ting for whatever jutsu that is coming its way to be absorbed.

Only way to stop Madara now its trough plot. He is going to kill himself, go human again or the plot is going to make him forget everything he can do so the alliance can take him down... After Obito not making a bloody hole in his mask to shoow those OP Katons i am not going to be suprised about anything.

[Kid Chameleone]

If we can't trust kishi's words anymore then asking a proof from the manga are all irrelevant. So debating in a thread doesn't need any scan/proof anymore, all we need is our logic and present that as proof/fact. On what basis? Nothing, after all, kishi's words, kishi's hype, kishi's story and kishi's logic are all nonsense and can't be trusted. Right?

So all of us will going to present our proof/logic as a truth and a fact. As if we're the one who created this manga.

And lastly, if we can't trust kishi's words anymore then all of the characters statement are all nonsense.

We based our manga fact from kishi's manga.
We based our logic from kishi's logic.
We based our hype from kishi's manga/hype.
We based our debates from kishi's words/manga.

And does kishi contradicting his hype to hiruzen? No. We haven't seen anything from him. We haven't seen his true caliber on why orochimaru said that he's no match to a younger hiruzen. Why would orochimaru said that? Why would kishi make that statement through oro?

Hiruzen maybe a weak from what we've seen from the manga, but for Pete's sake, we haven't seen his true caliber on his prime.

k dude you know what i meant. what i meant by this is that you cant look back or really rely on databooks for validity cause kishi constantly changes something.

1 yes hiruzen is called the god of shinobi but compared to oonoki he looks weak.
2. hashirama gets a new power up every week
3. the senju and uchiha are supposed equals -.-
4. raikiri was kakashis original move but the 3rd raikage has a 10x bettter version
5. edo tensei is supposed to revive the person as they died but for some reason madaras young
6. hashirama cells make you jesus

i could go on forever but what im saying is kishi constatly changes his ideas and disregards old ones so how can you really look back and try to make a claim when it gets shit on disregarded in later chapters?

The story lacks consistency to the point where its hard to have a good debat eon naruto. 1/3 of the people go by the databooks, one goes by what they see and the other third goes by whatever they want to happen. how can you defend something thats been in the databook when the manga shows something different? you cant.

Naruto isnt really a manga we can have a serious debate about anymore due to the constant changes, what i meant was you gotta sit back week by week and just accept things for how they are.

for example: hashirama started off as a nin that could only use wood jutsu, now his cells induce rapid growth, rapid healing, access to wood jutsu and control over bijuu NONE of which was stated anywhere and were just thrown at us as soon as madara showed up so yeah, im saying disregard the databooks and just read it cause putting to much thought into the manga only causes stress cause lets face it... it aint as good

[KingOfNight]

Kid Chameleone

He never changed a thing about Sarutobi though. In fact, where ever I look, I find more proofs that he (Kishimoto) had and has no intention of taking back that statement at all but instead, just keep supporting it. Just like Madara (Edo Madara) and possibly Hashirama, Sarutobi was perfect in every concept with the exceptions of physical concepts, which is obviously due to his age. As he was stated to be far FAR more powerful in his prime. So the thing is he was indeed up Hashirama and EMS Madara's level (If not beyond).

[xXan]

@KingOfNight

Look at Tsukisage, Danzo.... How much did old age effected them? Then how much of an increase can Sarutobi get? Going by what he showed vs Orochimaru even a 2x increase (not possible but meh) and Madara would just use his big food to STOMP him. I don't care for all the hype. I am looking at how Madara in perfect Susano owed the 5 KAGES completly... There is NO way Sarutobi > 5 Kages... Don't care for his hype. Going by what he showed it just not possible.