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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
a) Iruka, who has never seen Hashirama and only seen Hiruzen after he was well past his prime years,
b) Kabuto, not only the same with Iruka, but also speculates about the title of Hokage being superior to other villages' Kage,
c) Orochimaru, who was lost in the sentimentality of the moment for a while, because of the impending battle and the chance to kill his Sensei. We have got to take it into account. He was a maniac, but even then he had feelings as Sandaime pointed out. Not that he was necessarily saddened by the turn of the things, but he still cared too much about him, either through respect or hatred. I mean, if you are trying to become the ultimate being, you don't become obsessed with revenge this much.
None of these people compare to Madara's current situation. Madara witnessed Hashirama's power himself and fought him. He directly measured his opponent's power. Also, they were never close to each other, so, Madara really had no ulterior reason to respect or call Hashirama strong from an emotional perspective.
Hashirama was supposed to be very strong, but we really got little hints about what Mokuton could do at that point. Plus, Hiruzen was unfazed about the first two caskets and only feared the possible arrival of Yondaime. Either Hiruzen thought he could defeat his two Sensei together or he simply stood zero chance against Yondaime's speed. In that battle in Part I, we get to learn that Yondaime was a godly-Shinobi and Shodaime and Nidaime were high-caliber Shinobi. That's how it appears to me.
So you are telling me manga evidence where Madara/Hashirama are direcly showed and not implied (with a perhaps) to be stronger then 5 Kages put togeder is of no use?Quote:
What you have from the manga. Iruku and a PERHAPS from him that he is the strongest of the Hokages. IRUKA ffs and it was more like a rumor or a compliment.
Then you have Kabuto who made a coment that he was said to be the strongest of the Kages.
At no point was it stated or even asumed Sarutobi>5 kages put togeder.
That is about all you have to demonstrate Sarutobi>Hashirama.
Then i have. Madara/Hashirama>5 kages put togeder. Then i have Dan stating that NOBODY but Hashirama could stop Madara, not even 1 word about Sarutobi... Then i have that Madara himself not stating 1 word about Sarutobi and we all know Madara lived enough in his cave for him to see Sarutobi alive.
In the end you don't have any evidence better then what i have. You just dismiss it as you have nothing to offer. You don't even have 1 single line in the manga where it was stated as fact that Sarutobi was better then the rest Hokage. It was all rumor.
Perhaps he has a general idea about the manga's end but no real details of what is going to appen in between. He also probably said that so he does not end up looking like bad. There is no way he did not change the ending a few times since the start of this manga. Perhaps he knew Naruto is going to bring peace and be Hokage.... Nothing more. He put up a vague term man.Quote:
Look at the interview where he was stating with a passion that Tobi=Madara... What you are giving me here is not evidence.
You also don't see him backing on his statement? Well he aparently did about Obito did he not?
Look at how the manga evolved. Do you think if he had any idea at what DBZ levels he would get to from part 1 to 2 he would change nothing in part 1?
Sarutobi was left behind because this manga is NOW about Sendu+Uchiha = SO6P.... Its about that destinify of the Senju and Uchiha. Its about every damn moron(exageration) having Hashirama DNA to get an insane boost in power. Face it Sarutobi was left in the dust as Kishi and the manga needed Hashirama OP and Madara just as OP as 2 forces that the rest can't get to (Uchiha and Senju).
Because he mostly tells fans what they whant to hear? About the fact that he LIES as long as its a good thing for the manga? He hypes things as long as they are good for the manga?Quote:
Also he does not even states there Sarutobi is > Hashirama/Madara... I wonder if he states Sarutobi was godliky what would he call Madara? The One Above All?
Do you know what a lie is? If you do you would know that stating X is Y when X is Z is a LIE.Quote:
He could have given a vague description and always using the word Tobi... Again if you don't belive that is a lie its easy for me to prove you rong. All i need is the definition of the word... I can post it from google if you whant. Also at that point Tobi was Madara ONLY if he decided to change it from Madara to Obito later... Thing is considering the revelation curently in the manga Tobi was at no point Madara.
I like this part. So he was confirming that Tobi is Madara?!?!?!?Quote:
Look at what he did IN THE MANGA so Minato does not look like a moron. When Minato said something about Obito he said "The man with a mask" and never Madara.
Anyway that "status" he gave Sarutobi has no relevance here. He did not say he was more godlike then Hashirama or Madara... Even Nagato was called a GOD and this time in his own manga and not like some lines for his fans.
Also there is nothing to lie about his past performance when he was younger... There is no evidence that in his prime he was above Madara or Hashirama.
Also look what Orochimaru had to say about his old age. He was getting tired faster and THAT IS IT. His performance in jutsus or skill is that same exact one only that he could last LONGER in his prime. That is your link i belive.
Depends on what statemant you are refering to. If you are refering to Tobi/Madara one all i need is the definition of a LIE.Quote:
If you are refering to Hashirama>other Kages its a rumor and something stated by Iruka. If you don't belive its a just a rumor all you need to do is read the words.
If you are refering to him probably ending up the strongest of the 5 Kages then that to is a rumor and not fact and even so he is not strongest then all of them put togeder like Madara/Hashirama. Same thing as above.
If you are refering to his prime self then yeah obviously in old age he had a lower chakra capacity but nothing that relevant. In no way can you belive his chakra capacity whent down more then half. Even in his prime or at any point was he stated to be as powerfull or more then all the Kages like Madara/Hashirama where DIRECLY SHOWED in the manga.
In the end i have clear evidence FROM the manga that nobody can stop Madara BUT Hashirama (so there goes Sarutobi). That Madara/Hashirama > 5 Kages put togeder. Dan did NOT put it like a rumor or hear say like Iruka or Kabuto.
What do you have? Perhaps he is the stronges Hokage and perhaps he is the stronges Kages but never that is stronger then 5 of them togeder...
Seriously you have SO much evidence to couter your argument... Its in the damn manga direcly showed for Madara and Hashirama to be on a completly diferent level. Kishi retcons stuff for his plot.
Last edited by xXan; January 01, 2013 at 07:32 AM.
I can't say anything anymore, if the word of the author don't convince you, what will ?
Here is the Databooks stats : Nin: 5\5 - Tai 5\5 - Gen 5\5 - Intelligence 5\5 - Str 3\5 - Speed 3\5 - Stamina 3\5 - Hand seals 5\5.
Can you guess why the stats in bold are not perfect for an old man ? Can you guess how those stats would be in his prime ?
More or less, he is the only character with 5 maxed out categories. Now can you name one character (Aside from EDO Madara) that can beat his perfection in his prime ?
Last edited by KingOfNight; January 01, 2013 at 07:34 AM.
Thing is Kishi never said the things you claimed. The manga curently claims something completly diferet, the manga curently is SHOWING something completly diferent.
You are claiming in essence that Sarutobi in his prime could defeat all the kages put togeder... In essence you are claiming Kishi would know from part 1 what he would do in part 2...
Even if he was younger his str would not increase by any significant number. Even if younger he would not be faster then Minato who was claimed to be THE FASTEST in the manga or faster then Raikage... Even in his youth he could not have more stamina then some of the people in this manga like Naruto, UZUMACHI with insane life force and long life, or Old Raikage that was alive in his age or curent Raikage or Hashirama that aparently is that OP when it comes to his DNA and so on...
You see crep change from part 1... You just refuse to belive it. Also if he has 5/5 in ninjutsu what does 1 that can trap the Kyuubi in a small moon have? Just curious... But yes let's get back to the incredible jutsus he used in part 1 to prove his 5/5 in ninjutsu... Databook is irrelevant.
Also why is this OP dude w8tes for Minato to save his arse and just buys time? Eh?
Last edited by xXan; January 01, 2013 at 07:41 AM.
Not that I really love going deep into databook numbers, but, let's see.
This, with his severe illness draining his chakra, leaving him without physical strength and stamina. Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Intelligence, Speed, Hand Seals maxed out. 5 maxed out categories, like Hiruzen.
But that means nothing. I would definitely not give Itachi a 5/5 at speed. So, if we are to give him a 5, then, what would be Raikage's level of speed? Obviously, there is a difference even between those 5/5.
Likewise, Sarutobi can't be a 5/5 Genjutsu user. He can't cope with a Sharingan user. Proof is simple. Orochimaru is listed 5/5 in Genjutsu, and couldn't do anything against Itachi.
Perhaps more interestingly, Jiraiya is given 3/5 in Genjutsu. He could use Frog Song as a powerful Genjutsu and knows how to break free out of Genjutsu to a level, so, he is definitely not inferior to Orochimaru in that respect, if not superior.
All in all, databooks are so irrelevant to the story at this point that I bet I could come up with better stats than the books include for you, although it will definitely take some time.
Does it say anything about Sarutobi's strength ? No. It's useless.Quote:
You first claim to know the manga better than it's author, and now you claim to know the author better than himself ? Is that supposed to be funny ? Because nobody's laughing. How is saying Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage is good for the manga, unless it's a fact ? You're telling me, the fans want to hear that the old man that was dead 400 chapters ago is the strongest man in the universe ? That's what the fans want to hear ? Well, that's certainly NOT what YOU want to hear. And the last murderous time, he was not forced to answer such a thing (that is assuming he was asked, he could've just gave it as a fact since it's a fact section). So please spare me this whole Kishimoto is lying crap. Do you know him ? Did you write the manga with him ? Are you a manga author that was in a similar situation and resorted to unnecessary lies ? Please don't make up weird impossible to believe nonsense. No one here is willing to believe what i say but, they're not making weird , impossible to believe statements like you.Quote:
That made no sense at all. Go ahead prove to me that Kishimoto was lying. And that he didn't know how the story will turn out. And not an assumption or an opinion please, just a straight up proof since you said you could prove it. If it's anything more than three lines, then i will take it as an opinion and ignore it. Since a proof can be said in one to two lines at maximum.Quote:
It is, since he compared him to the SO6P.Quote:
Will you have me repeat myself seven hundred time ? He WAS the strongest Hokage in the History of the leaf. First Databook page 117-119. He is stronger than Hashirama when he was in his prime. Done. That's the proof you need from the author himself.Quote:
And I have the Creator of Naruto. And the manga. And the creator of Naruto again. And the manga again. Don't like anything about that ? Your problem.Quote:
Good for you, but does it say Sarutobi is not the strongest Hokage ? Does it say that Hashirama is ? No. And please don't reply with cries and opinions.Quote:
Tenten is more intelligent than Neji.
Neji is 3/5 in hand seals, but honestly, he should be at around 0/5, since he doesn't use them. Same goes for Tenten.
Damn, I'm just stuck with those inconsistencies now
Yes you did so. If you keep on arguing he is the strongest then he must be able to do that as Madara and Hashirama can do it. If Madara/Hashirama>5 Kages then Sarutobi>Madara/Hashirama...Quote:
Em what i know of the databook is that the words used are "its said to be" and NOT "he is". That is NOT an afirmation of a fact. That is a asumtion.Quote:
"face palm" So you where not arguing with everybody over pages on how Sarutobi is the strongest of the Kages and Hokages?Quote:
I don't. I claim to know that facts are what Kishi needs them at a point in time.Quote:
He never said Sarutobi is the strongest Hokage.
He just gave him a nice "status" no influence on his power levels. Curently we get in the manga the power of Madara and Hashirama. You are just ignoring the manga... He said something there for the fans but now he showes in the manga who where the real powerhouses.
Its also interesting that nobody is willing to belive what you say... Its usualy when you know you are wrong when everybody is saying to you the same thing.
Sure no problem. Claiming Tobi is Madara is a lie when he revealed later that Tobi was Obito.Quote:
Definition of a lie:
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Was that what he did there when he claimed Tobi was Madara? Of course. You see you can't argue with the meaning of a word, you just can't win.
He did not. He just made a praise. Even CURENT MADARA trowing a METEORS claimed he has only a fragment of RS power for God's sake. How disperate are you?Quote:
Link me the databook please. I seriously have no idea where you found this. I could be wrong (and it would have no real influence on what is CURENTLY in the manga) so please post it.Quote:
Yes and he claimed something completly diferent (and SHOWED) in the manga contradicting anything from before. That is what you can't wrap your mind around. He showed diferently curently in the manga.Quote:
But please link me the events where it was stated, NOT ASUMED that he was the strongest. Even better show me how he can be better then Hashirama/Madara when this 2 can solo 5 Kages. Can't you see how those asumtions are direcly in contradiction with what he showed LATER in the manga?
If he was stronger then Hashirama then he could stop madara. This is not a cry, its not an oppinion is beyong common sense. Not only me but mods and other people showed you this even in page 1 of this discussion its just that you don't what to admit you are wrong or accept it.Quote:
---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------
This guy is obviously trolling. Current manga facts hold more weight > past manga facts. Hashiramas current power is far greater than what kishi originally portrayed it to be. I havnt posted here cuz I just knew this thread was dumb but to see it go this many pages is ridiculous. Let this guy believe his dumb idea and leave it
Since this has turned into a proofs exchange, lets ignore all the opinions and end this already so I'm gonna skip the none important stuff (If i skip something important, remind me what it is).
Done. Unless you can find me a place where Hashirama was stated to be the strongest Hokage.
What is that ? Again at that time Tobi was Madara. Hiding spoilers is different from lying. Still, assuming he did lie, he had something to contradict it here. Can you prove that he lied about Sarutobi ? If you're gonna use the same logic, you will need (once again) a place where Hashirama was said to be the strongest Hokage. Bring me a source such as this. Otherwise don't waste my time.Quote:
• Rikudou was known as "Shinobi God"; Sarutobi must have been godly. I'm desperate enough to use the word of the author, that's how desperate I am. How desperate are you for claiming the author is lying ?Quote:
Finding the 1st databook is next to impossible now, however, I assure you with this here that I'm not lying or creating anything. You can go to this wiki page, down all the way to the strongest Hokage section. It's pretty much similar discussion to this. Only difference is that they actually know when to give up to the word of the author. The wiki linked the statement of him being the strongest Hokage to again - First Databook, pages 117-119. If you can find the Databook, there is no arguing you will find this statement.Quote:
If possible, don't reply with anything but straight up facts. I gave you two facts that he was said to be the strongest Hokage in both Manga and Databook and one fact of him being worthy of sharing the same title as the SO6P. Just reply with similar facts.
---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------
Last edited by KingOfNight; January 01, 2013 at 11:12 AM.
Your so called prop comes from unreliable old databook and part 1, every one is showing proof from recent events, what you say holds no substance
Huh? He was said to be. Its not HE WAS. Do yo know the diference? Hope you do... 1 is an asumtion and the other is an afirmation.Quote:
Then that comes from IRUKA... One who was not even around back then... One who was close to fodder.
What you presented here is NOT indication of what you claimed.
A lie is a lie. He lied for that is what it was needed for his manga. He could have not answer or give a shallow one that demonstrated nothing. People do that all the time.Quote:
Its nothing to prove as he did not say about Sarutobi what you claimed. Then its nothing for me to prove wrong as he himself did that curently in the manga.
I and a LOT of other have been giving you evidence for a great number of pages, 9 to be more exact but you refuse or are unable to comprehend them.
That is not comparing his power to that of RS. That is making a simple praise with no real effect on the curent status of the manga. If you think Sarutobi is anywhere close to even ET Madara with wood element, RINNEGAN, towering Susano, army of Susanos, wood dragons, biju's and other insane crep you are just delusional. Now this Madara said to have only a small fragment of RS's power... To compare him to that its mind boggling.Quote:
oh yes i could find and what i remember from the databook is the same thing as everywhere else. The words are "he was said to be". That is not HE WAS.Quote:
The only one who does not whant to accept this facts is you. All the people here point just about the same damn things but to you this are not facts... These ARE facts that people have been trowing at you for 9 damn pages.Quote: