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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #481
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    That's not exactly how it is, he said "those who heard of his power considered him a fairy tale". Am I to ask how is that a proof for the original argument ? That Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage ? He was straight up stated to be the strongest, what you're saying here is assumptions on why he was stated as such and why was Hashirama not mentioned. That's you assuming the reason behind Kishimoto's statement. That is in no way a fact. Unless you can bring me something like :

    A direct statement of him being the strongest Hokage in either Manga or databook. (Like the one I gave three hundred time)

    A statement of him being stronger than Hiruzen.

    Or Kishimoto asking us not to take what he said in part 1 seriously.

    Or him saying he didn't know things will turn out like this.

    Unless it's something like that, it's just an assumption. People can say I'm trolling all they want, but unless a proof is presented I'm not obliged to listen to your opinions.
    Then why are you posting in a forum about an issue with no concrete answer?
    You are asking for things that no one can possibly give you, since no one here is Masashi Kishimoto. Assumptions can, will, and have to be made.

  2. #482
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    Then why are you posting in a forum about an issue with no concrete answer?
    You are asking for things that no one can possibly give you, since no one here is Masashi Kishimoto. Assumptions can, will, and have to be made.
    I'm aware of that, however, you can't and you shouldn't blame me or call me trolling for taking the author statement over your own opinions.

  3. #483
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    The thing is, author's seemed to have changed his opinions. At first it was believable Hiruzen was the strongest hokage since despite his old age, he was able to take on the previous two undead hokage and the would-have-been-his-successor all by himself while not being at his prime.

    However, since the war arc we're in, Kishi has introduced several new powers for Hashirama that Hiruzen wouldn't have been able to deal with. He already had difficulty as it was, if Kishi incorporated Part II Hashirama into Part I against Hiruzen, he'd have been killed in one or two blows as far as we know.The power jump Hashirama received is quite significant, bolstering him from someone who was seen to be on par with Hiruzen to someone who could change the landscape easily.

    Maybe Hiruzen's power will increase accordingly if he's introduced again, but until then I don't see how anyone can claim Hiruzen is better than Hashirama.


    And don't always go by author's statement. Look at the work too and draw your own conclusions. The author doesn't always agree with what he says, doesn't provide full info, or isn't necessarily honest, preferring to use action. Kishi can have Orochimaru say Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama, but if Hashirama easily beats healthy Hiruzen, then that pretty much renders Orochimaru's words null. Same with the feats from Hiruzen and Hashirama up until now.

  4. #484
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Ah, I see it now.
    Kakuzu only says it has been a while since he lost two of his hearts and I must have recalled it had to be with his fight against Hashirama, but there is no such statement. Hashirama probably could have possibly taken four of his hearts, since the databook says he was barely alive, though that could be an overstatement or something.
    I think he did not had his "hearts" jutsu when he had his fight with Hashirama. The databook states something about forbidden jutsu:

    Quote Quote:
    After that is where he learns the forbidden jutsu and kills the village leaders. jutsu and kills the village leaders.
    Note the after refers to the event with Hashirama and returning to the village. He was probably a normal ninja back then going assasin mode, Hashirama noticed him and then owned him completly.

    ---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    I don't remember whether I got that impression from the manga or the anime but I remember hearing something implying that. Apparently it's wrong though. It does make little sense, but of course neither does Hashirama apparently being a god. How the hell did Hashirama die anyway? That's something Kishi should explain. Mokuton just doesn't look that amazing.....I mean it looks powerful but it doesn't look like something that could rival the Sharingan or Rinnegan at all. I mean just a good ol Katon should be able to counter it for the most part....


    I just noticed something about the databook that might be wrong. Said that Kakuzu learned the heart stealing jutsu after breaking out of prison from failing his mission, however Kakuzu when reminiscing about his fight said he hadn't lost 2(or 3 or 4, I don't remember the amount he said) hearts since. So he would've had to know that jutsu before their fight then. Doesn't make sense. Hashirama probably did beat him though, or at least drawed. Probably the former.
    Wood element was able to own 5 Kages so i think its that good. Hell it was able to handle Kurama and perfect Susano. I do hope we get to see the fight to. a Katon at best would set it on fire an then you would have flaming roots coming to you. Naruto needed an army of himself with huge Rasengans (after getting and infusion of Kurama power) to stop even 1 wave of Wood Element.
    Its not wrong, Hakuteiken actualy had something to say about this:

    Quote Quote:
    Ah, I see it now.
    Kakuzu only says it has been a while since he lost two of his hearts and I must have recalled it had to be with his fight against Hashirama, but there is no such statement. Hashirama probably could have possibly taken four of his hearts, since the databook says he was barely alive, though that could be an overstatement or something.
    He was not refering to Hashirama.

    ---------- Post added at 10:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I'm aware of that, however, you can't and you shouldn't blame me or call me trolling for taking the author statement over your own opinions.
    Then its a good thing there is no single place where Kishi claims Sarutobi was the strongest Kage/Hokage, only that he was said to be.

    Then in curent chapters the ninja are making a FACT out of the fact that NOBODY but Hashirama could stop Madara, that Hashirama's power and Madara's is not out of this world (even coming from Tsunade). They are showed as able to solo 5 Kages and so on...

    I really wonder when you will stop trying to prove the world wrong. You know when everybody is telling you you are wrong you should man up and admit you are wrong.

  5. #485
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Then its a good thing there is no single place where Kishi claims Sarutobi was the strongest Kage/Hokage, only that he was said to be.
    Yes he was said to be the strongest Hokage. So he is the strongest Hokage. Until you can prove this "he was said" is a lie.

    Quote Quote:
    Then in curent chapters the ninja are making a FACT out of the fact that NOBODY but Hashirama could stop Madara, that Hashirama's power and Madara's is not out of this world (even coming from Tsunade). They are showed as able to solo 5 Kages and so on...
    Did he say he's the strongest Hokage ? No. Ignored.

    Quote Quote:
    I really wonder when you will stop trying to prove the world wrong. You know when everybody is telling you you are wrong you should man up and admit you are wrong.
    When you stop spouting nonsense and bring me an actual statement from the author. That's when.

  6. #486
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @KingOfNight


    The words are HE WAS SAID TO BE and not HE WAS. Can you read? Do you know what words mean?



    Quote Quote:
    Did he say he's the strongest Hokage ? No. Ignored.
    If he is the only one who can stop him YES. Sarutobi CAN'T so Hashirama is stronger. Again words comprehension. Then he was FLAT OUT SHOWED to be.

    Quote Quote:
    When you stop spouting nonsense and bring me an actual statement from the author. That's when.
    Its been presented for you over and over from Dan, Madara, Tsunade and a few other.. You just close you eyes and ignore the multiple ocasions when it has showed. That is manga FACT from the MANGA.

  7. #487
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @KingOfNight


    The words are HE WAS SAID TO BE and not HE WAS. Can you read? Do you know what words mean?
    He was said to be by whom ? By a lot of people. Thus, he was acknowledged as the strongest Hokage by the shinobi world. Can you not comprehend that ? Or are you saying none existing people said that ? Stop with your useless tries. One time you say Kishimoto is lying, next time you say he's playing with words. And now you're say something that has no point at all. He was said to be the strongest Hokage. Thus a lot of people gave direct statement of him being the strongest Hokage
    Spoiler show


    Quote Quote:
    If he is the only one who can stop him YES. Sarutobi CAN'T so Hashirama is stronger. Again words comprehension. Then he was FLAT OUT SHOWED to be.
    Winning and being stronger than someone is different in case you can't tell. Who's to say Dan didn't mean that Madara has something only Hashirama can counter ? That's why i asked for a direct proof that he is stronger. And you bring me the the case with Madara and Hashirama. But still doesn't equal a direct statement that he is the strongest Hokage.

  8. #488
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @KingOfNight

    Quote Quote:
    He was said to be by whom ? By a lot of people. Thus, he was acknowledged as the strongest Hokage by the shinobi world. Can you not comprehend that ? Or are you saying none existing people said that ? Stop with your useless tries. One time you say Kishimoto is lying, next time you say he's playing with words. And now you're say something that has no point at all. He was said to be the strongest Hokage. Thus a lot of people gave direct statement of him being the strongest Hokage
    He was asumed to be. Do you know what an ASUMTION is? He was asumed by people who DID NOT know Madara's or Hashirama's true power, that is FACT from curent chapters. Not even TSUNADE knew of Hashirama's power for God's sake.
    You seriously need a dictionary to look up words. Asumtions are not FACTS. Rumors and hearsay are NOT facts. Kishi did NOT state anything of what you claim.

    Quote Quote:
    Winning and being stronger than someone is different in case you can't tell. Who's to say Dan didn't mean that Madara has something only Hashirama can counter ? That's why i asked for a direct proof that he is stronger. And you bring me the the case with Madara and Hashirama. But still doesn't equal a direct statement that he is the strongest Hokage.
    Direct proof? I can show you wood element owning 5 Kages. What is that if not evidence lol. You got evidence that Sarutobi can solo 5 Kages? Please provide it. All the feats, statemants from the manga show Hashirama as the most powerfull Hokage. Even Minato has better showings then Sarutobi. Sarutobi with an ARMY behind him could only hope for Minato to get there to save his arse.

    So i have Hashirama's power to be above 5 Kages put togeder. What do you have from Sarutobi that would put him on that level of power?

    Also Madara would just step on Sarutobi like a the bug he is.
    Last edited by xXan; January 02, 2013 at 04:25 AM.

  9. #489
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NinjaStar's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @NinjaStar


    His fights involved him having comrades on the battlefield. He would MOST DEFENETLY defened them and himself. At best you can claim he would not land the killing blow if possible but no moron would not go all out because he likes peace. Those where life and death situation where he was puting his life, the life of his comrades and the future of his clan on the line. There is no way he was going easy on Madara because he likes peace.

    Oviously if he could complete his mission by avoiding fighting Madara he would take it BUT if the engage happened he would fight to his best. In the end Hashirama was a shinobi.
    You can't be serious can you? After seeing the exchange between Minato, A, and Bee you really think that its unlikely for Hashirama(Love NOT war brother) to not want to go all out every battle? I guess Minato didn't care about the outcome of the war he was in huh? What about Itachi whom was a pacifist? He didn't enjoy fighting and when he did he tried to get it over with as fast as possible and seemingly with the least bloodshed. Again you think its too much that some of the times that Madara and Senju encountered one another that Hashirama wasn't just "fuck it, we'll get 'em next time"?

    Like you said hashirama was protecting his people during most battles and you can't fight all out when you have to babysit somebody. The one time we know that they did go all out with one another was at VOTE and that was essentially one on one(presumably) and Hashirama had an entire Village and future of the ninja war to protect aka no more mr.nice guy.

  10. #490
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @KingOfNight



    He was asumed to be. Do you know what an ASUMTION is? He was asumed by people who DID NOT know Madara's or Hashirama's true power, that is FACT from curent chapters. Not even TSUNADE knew of Hashirama's power for God's sake.
    You seriously need a dictionary to look up words. Asumtions are not FACTS. Rumors and hearsay are NOT facts. Kishi did NOT state anything of what you claim.
    You're just assuming this. He was said, is different form he was thought or assumed to be. Which is why everyone in the world never argued about that. I don't need a dictionary, i need to get over the fact that someone in this world is actually desperate enough to bring out such a useless argument. And was Kishimoto's statement in the Fanbook a mere assumption as well ? No wait, it was a "praise". Was Orochimaru calling him the Shinobi god in his prime an assumption ? Get over yourself.

    Quote Quote:
    Direct proof? I can show you wood element owning 5 Kages. What is that if not evidence lol.
    No. It's a feat. Have you seen Sarutobi in his prime ?
    Last edited by KingOfNight; January 02, 2013 at 05:43 AM.

  11. #491
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Kakuzu said that Hashirama was the last Shinobi that was able to take more than one of his hearts down. That doesn't translate into a win for him. Perhaps he did flee from the battlefield afterwards. At any rate, we can't really tell the end result.



    I think Mito could have possibly only aided him when it came to sealing the Kyuubi. I don't think she could do anything against the Perfect Susano'o on her own.
    The most likely scenario is Hashirama taking control of the Kyuubi, and Mito performing the fuuinjutsu.
    Madara probably got exhausted overexerting his doujutsu while trying to counter Hashirama's attacks and lost. That's how it seems to me, at least.
    Oh Noh. Remember the flashback of kurama? We've seen hashirama in a bloody face while saying, ''kyubi, you're so dangerous blah blah''. So with those scene, hashirama already beat the hell up to madara and already gained the kyubi to his control.

    Honestly, the manga already shown us the proof that hashirama is more stronger than madara. So making up things just like stated by someone (it's not you, really) that the reason why hashirama won against madara is because of mito.

    Hashirama won against madara because he's more better and stronger than madara.

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  13. #492
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaStar View Post
    You can't be serious can you? After seeing the exchange between Minato, A, and Bee you really think that its unlikely for Hashirama(Love NOT war brother) to not want to go all out every battle? I guess Minato didn't care about the outcome of the war he was in huh? What about Itachi whom was a pacifist? He didn't enjoy fighting and when he did he tried to get it over with as fast as possible and seemingly with the least bloodshed. Again you think its too much that some of the times that Madara and Senju encountered one another that Hashirama wasn't just "fuck it, we'll get 'em next time"?

    Like you said hashirama was protecting his people during most battles and you can't fight all out when you have to babysit somebody. The one time we know that they did go all out with one another was at VOTE and that was essentially one on one(presumably) and Hashirama had an entire Village and future of the ninja war to protect aka no more mr.nice guy.
    Minato whent for the kill on Raikage. He did not kill Bee as the retreat order was given. Raikage would be dead if that Kunai could penetrate his armour and Bee did not intervene. Minato was not going easy on him at all.
    Itachi what? He was a pacifist so? What does that had to do with life and death situations? He 1shoot Orochimaru and he did not even had a second though. The fact that people wanted peace and are pacifists does not mean they would not do there duty as ninja and leaders of the clan. They had missions to complete.

    Hashirama did not had the posibility of going "wasn't just "fuck it, we'll get 'em next time" considering he had missions to complete. The 2 sides where fighting and losing a LOT OF MEN. That is why even the Uchiha decided for the truce and team up. Yes if Uchiha pulled back he probably when with the "screw it" but thing is that would be only after it was all over (the mission or whatever). They eneded up losing a lot of men. Hashirama would not go easy considering he was losing men.
    Just because he needed to protect his men does not mean he was not attacking Madara with all he had. They where probably attacking 1 another and the rest of the fodders with them attacked 1 another.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You're just assuming this. He was said, is different form he was thought or assumed to be. Which is why everyone in the world never argued about that. I don't need a dictionary, i need to get over the fact that someone in this world is actually desperate enough to bring out such a useless argument. And was Kishimoto's statement in the Fanbook a mere assumption as well ? No wait, it was a "praise". Was Orochimaru calling him the Shinobi god in his prime an assumption ? Get over yourself. And this is the last time I'm about to stay silent while someone like you to keep questioning my intelligence. You're way over yourself saying I have reading or comprehending problems. You've insulted me enough I suppose.



    No. It's a feat. Have you seen Sarutobi in his prime ?
    http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic26454.html
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/It+is+said

    It is a rumor(as i keep telling your for 10 pages), what people generaly belive. ITS not a fact. Yes you do need a dictionary...

  14. #493
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Direct proof? I can show you wood element owning 5 Kages. What is that if not evidence lol. You got evidence that Sarutobi can solo 5 Kages? Please provide it. All the feats, statemants from the manga show Hashirama as the most powerfull Hokage. Even Minato has better showings then Sarutobi. Sarutobi with an ARMY behind him could only hope for Minato to get there to save his arse.
    not knowing all the details about the debate; but i would like if you can show where wood clones were owning 5 kages. i am assuming that you are stating Hashirama's power, and only Hashirama's power. if you show the usage of Wood Clones against 5 kages by Madara; then that won't count. because it wasn't the power of Wood Clones alone. there were several other factors, such as immortal body, EMS, Rinnegan etc.
    Naruto Forever


  15. #494
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic26454.html
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/It+is+said

    It is a rumor(as i keep telling your for 10 pages), what people generaly belive. ITS not a fact. Yes you do need a dictionary...
    And your point is ?
    Quote Quote:
    ''is considered''
    So what now ?

  16. #495
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And your point is ?


    So what now ?
    ....

    1. To think carefully about.
    2. To think or deem to be; regard as. See Usage Note at as1.
    3. To form an opinion about; judge: considers waste to be criminal.
    4. To take into account; bear in mind: Her success is not surprising if you consider her excellent training.
    5. To show consideration for: failed to consider the feelings of others.
    6. To esteem; regard.
    7. To look at thoughtfully.

    Its Irukas and those people oppinions about Sarutobi's and Hashirama's power. Its not fact(look at nr.3 is the most obvious). And the word that applies to the context of said sentence is RUMOR. Its hearsay...

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