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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #571
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    You're comparing Part I to Part II, which is a mistake. And the Sannin are about ten years younger than Hiruzen, I think. At least, ten years younger.
    Well the comment we're discussing (eliminating the Uchiha clan) happen in Part Two. And while logically one would assume that, according to Kishi, Sarutobi was 68~69 years old when he died and the Sannins are currently 53~54 years old. So canonically, there's only a five year difference between them.

  2. #572
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It probably does. Shiki Fuuin is about sealing a soul while jinchuuriki creation is sealing chakra into another body, but keeping it accessible or teh chakra alive in some way. I think Mito had different seal put in her? The Kyuubi was still alive but chained and nailed to a ball whereas Naruto's had Kyuubi behind a gate with a seal key.
    Yep. In that sense, I thought Minato should have been able to handle it, since it wasn't a chakra related sealing. Maybe it was his assumption, or as you said, it was because he wanted to seal half of the chakra in Naruto's body.

    ---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    You're comparing Part I to Part II, which is a mistake. And the Sannin are about ten years younger than Hiruzen, I think. At least, ten years younger.
    I guess it's about comparing Hiruzen's age at the time of Kyuubi invasion to the Sannin's age as of now.

  3. #573
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well the comment we're discussing (eliminating the Uchiha clan) happen in Part Two. And while logically one would assume that, according to Kishi, Sarutobi was 68~69 years old when he died and the Sannins are currently 53~54 years old. So canonically, there's only a five year difference between them.
    So about three years ago, Sarutobi would have been 65. That's like, minimum of 9 years of age difference. Watchu talkin' about, Willis?

    And we're using Part I Hiruzen's npower though, since we have nothing else to go by, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Yep. In that sense, I thought Minato should have been able to handle it, since it wasn't a chakra related sealing. Maybe it was his assumption, or as you said, it was because he wanted to seal half of the chakra in Naruto's body.
    Or, Minato sealed the chakra in himself while he sealed the chakra in Naruto behind protection.

  4. #574
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Or, Minato sealed the chakra in himself while he sealed the chakra in Naruto behind protection.
    Ah, Minato already did mention about the chakra sealing, my bad for looking over my own reference. So, indeed, it was about both sealing the soul and the chakra with the same jutsu.

  5. #575
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    There's at least 16/17 years difference between Hiruzen and the sannins. Hiruzen was 69 when he dude and the Sannins were 50/51.

  6. #576
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    There's at least 16/17 years difference between Hiruzen and the sannins. Hiruzen was 69 when he dude and the Sannins were 50/51.
    A couple of years after the Kyuubi invasion, which makes it around 14-15 years ago in a guess, the idea to deal with the Uchiha was discussed and Danzo made that argument. At around the age of 55, Hiruzen wasn't seen as capable of dealing with an entire clan, while the Sannin in Part I-II, aged 51~54, looked well in their primes at that point.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    lol Uchihas stopped being pros after the war, the only good ones at that time were probably Sasuke's parents ( and even then, Fugaku was probably weaker than Jounins such as Asuma )
    When you fight an Uchiha you are meant to either outnumber them, or run. The only other ninja to ever get a "run on sight" decree was Minato. Asuma may have been a member of the 12 guards, but he's not the leader. Fugaku however commanded respect from the Police Force as the leader (likely appointed by the Hokage). Ninja like Shisui were his subordinates.

  8. #578
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    So about three years ago, Sarutobi would have been 65. That's like, minimum of 9 years of age difference. Watchu talkin' about, Willis?

    And we're using Part I Hiruzen's npower though, since we have nothing else to go by, no?
    ... Yeah, you right. I have no idea how my math got messed up.

    We have his feats/possible feats compared to the other Kages. Hashirama obviously had the means to wipe out an entire clan and Minato probably could have wiped out the majority of them with planning. Tobirama had both Edo Tensei and a space/time technique, so he's up in the air. There's also fighting a Bijuu, which so far quite a few Kages have been capable of doing alone.

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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The only other ninja to ever get a "run on sight" decree was Minato.
    A very dumb decree, if you ask me. What, can anyone outrun Minato? He just throws a Kunai at you as hard as he can and poof, you'd been rasengan'ed. (?)
    "Though our paths may differ... you must always live your lives with all your might!
    Never must you consider your own lives insignificant!
    Never in your lives must you forget the friends you held dear!"

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  11. #580
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Well, Hiruzen didn't croak when he fought the Kyuubi, so that's a plus. :| Plus, it was a decade before, when even Orochimaru claims that Hiruzen would have beaten him at that age.

  12. #581
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Asuma wasn't anywhere near weak by Jounin standards, so, I don't see why this can't be true. At the very least, if they were to fight, it wasn't going to end at an instant, since Fugaku or no other Uchiha probably came close to the level Itachi showed when he returned back to the village.
    The thing is, like the Hyuuga, the Uchiha also had a mass of people to deal with. They weren't a small clan. I think Danzo was putting up that power comparison considering that would be a real face to face fight, not a sneaky slaughter.
    Otherwise, I can't see Danzo valuing Itachi higher than himself, Hiruzen and his ANBU combined at that point.
    I never said he was. However, he didn't come off as one of the strongest either. also, to state that he is stronger than Fugaku based on nothing, just comes across as biased. We never really saw what your average Joe blow Uchiha could do. So we can't gauge how proficient they were with their sharingan. We do know that fugaku was at least the leader and was fully prepared to lead his clan against an entire village. so I'd say that puts him at the very least above the average Uchiha in terms of ability. Also, given the fact that it would've taken what was said to fight the Uchiha, it just doesn't make sense to me to think that Asuma is stronger then Fugaku. I mean, if you want to say that he is stronger due to the fact that we haven't seen any of Fugaku's abilities, then sure. However, that's not really fair considering that very thing.

  13. #582
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    I never said he was. However, he didn't come off as one of the strongest either. also, to state that he is stronger than Fugaku based on nothing, just comes across as biased. We never really saw what your average Joe blow Uchiha could do. So we can't gauge how proficient they were with their sharingan. We do know that fugaku was at least the leader and was fully prepared to lead his clan against an entire village. so I'd say that puts him at the very least above the average Uchiha in terms of ability. Also, given the fact that it would've taken what was said to fight the Uchiha, it just doesn't make sense to me to think that Asuma is stronger then Fugaku. I mean, if you want to say that he is stronger due to the fact that we haven't seen any of Fugaku's abilities, then sure. However, that's not really fair considering that very thing.
    I'm not really biased about this. We can't judge well because we didn't see Fugaku doing anything. He was a capable Shinobi, that's all we knew. And based on experience, I'd say he'd be able to defeat Asuma.
    The reason I made my post is Asuma's level or around would be a good measure, in my opinion. If the Uchiha were at around the strongest Jounin class like Kakashi and Gai, they'd be tough for the ANBU to handle, and most of the load would rest on Hiruzen and Danzo's shoulders.
    Though, in a way, Fugaku should be above his clan's average level, therefore, he must have been above that standard also. That's why I think he'd be able to defeat Asuma.

  14. #583
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    Dude come on now, Asuma, really? We'll ignore the fact that Fugaku was the leader of a coup de tat that not only could have started a Civil War within the village but also ushered in the fourth great war really early. However, just taking in the basics about the Uchiha and the sharingan and what was said in Itachi's flashback, If Asuma and Fugaku were to face each other, In my opinion Asuma would not come out the victor.
    Does asuma had the Buddha style jutsu? Or t'was just only in the anime? Man, that would be awesome. I doubt fugaku could defeat that jutsu by sharingan.

    I think the only one who can defeat fugaku or any uchiha less itachi/shisui is gai.

  15. #584
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    And your point?

    The legendary hashirama defeated madara because his wife help him?

    Honestly, you're just trying too hard to downplay hashirama's overwhelming victory against madara.

    There are at least 2/3 scenarios that indicates hashirama defeated both madara and the kyubi alone.

    1. Kyubi's flashback. We seen hashirama in a bloody face while telling the kyubi that he's dangerous so he can't let him roam free.

    2. Madara himself. He stated t'was hashirama's dragon who defeated his kyubi.

    3. Kushina. She said hashirama gained control of kurama during his fight against madara.

    So, I think you should rest this case, because from what the manga has shown, hashirama doesn't need his wife to defeat madara, why? Because he's more stronger than him.
    Where did I even imply that Hashirama is weaker than Madara? At least READ properly before you choose to type away in a hasty manner. The manga clearly creates a sense of parallel for their earlier battles. All of a sudden Hashirama comes out victorious? It does create a shady situation. Anything is possible, even this scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    It could be. But I doubt Mito could immediately use Nine-Tails power in the fight.
    Probably, Hashirama binded the Nine-Tails after he wrestled away it from Madara's control. Hashirama couldn't possibly concentrate on his opponent and a Bijuu at the same time, so, Mito sealed the Nine-Tails inside her, and Hashirama returned his focus back to Madara. So, even if it was a decisive factor, it changes the end result little.
    It goes from Hashirama defeated Madara + Kyuubi to Hashirama defeated Madara. Still quite a feat by any means.
    It could have gone this way, or perhaps if Madara invested a lot of Chakra into possibly controlling the nine-tails and suddenly if that control could not be taken back, he clearly lost all the cards and chakra in that one sealing instance. This is a huge factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    Even if we go with "Mito sealed Kyuubi during the fight", it still doesn't definitely mean that it was the table-turner or the deciding factor for Hashirama's win.

    What would be the point for Mito to seal Kyuubi during the fight? It seems that Hashirama, just like Madara, can't control Kyuubi for a longer period. This means that Kyuubi would end up as a third party in that fight, attacking both Madara and Hashirama as he pleases.

    That throws "to better aid him (Hashirama)" into a new context. She helped her husband to focus on one godlike opponent, instead of two. But that also goes for Madara, which makes the whole sealing-issue not a table-turner.
    I implied that it could very well be a possibility. We all know their various frays ended up as dead ends for both parties. How was he able to secure that victory, even if it was just barely? Mito aiding him could have been a huge factor, as Madara challenged Konoho, not Hashirama alone:

    http://178.21.19.200/manga/mangas/Na...Page_10-11.png

    Now I understand that a hokage couldn't just throw his legs over a chair and smoke a cigar on such an attack, but perhaps some other shinobi also contributed?
    Last edited by shahdan; January 03, 2013 at 08:10 PM.

  16. #585
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Where did I even imply that Hashirama is weaker than Madara? At least READ properly before you choose to type away in a hasty manner. The manga clearly creates a sense of parallel for their earlier battles. All of a sudden Hashirama comes out victorious? It does create a shady situation. Anything is possible, even this scenario.



    It could have gone this way, or perhaps if Madara invested a lot of Chakra into possibly controlling the nine-tails and suddenly if that control could not be taken back, he clearly lost all the cards and chakra in that one sealing instance. This is a huge factor.



    I implied that it could very well be a possibility. We all know their various frays ended up as dead ends for both parties. How was he able to secure that victory, even if it was just barely? Mito aiding him could have been a huge factor, as Madara challenged Konoho, not Hashirama alone:

    http://178.21.19.200/manga/mangas/Na...Page_10-11.png

    Now I understand that a hokage couldn't just throw his legs over a chair and smoke a cigar on such an attack, but perhaps some other shinobi also contributed?
    Huh? But hashirama did really won against madara. He defeated/killed (?) madara and the kyubi alone. So what's the point of making an assumption that mito help hashirama by aiding him by sealing the kyubi at that fight? It really looks like you're down playing hashirama's victory.

    Last time, you said that the reason why hashirama won against madara is his regeneration ability. It's like the huge factor of hashirama from madara is his regeneration ability. And now t'was mito, so What's next?

    Hashirama killed(?)/defeated madara and Gained control of the kyubi. How come you can't still accept that as a manga fact?

    And madara challanged hashirama alone. If not, then madara should attack the konoha. But he didn't. He and hashirama fought at the vote. That's far from the village I guess.

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