The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[M3J]

Oh. Doesn't necessarily mean it's the REVERSE of the Four Symbol technique, does it? From the looks of it, the seal could deal a lot of damage or wide area of damage. Though, it could be likely that Danzou was better at seals than Hiruzen, so he was able to use it.

Yamato said he never had the type of chakra Hashirama did that brought life to his Mokuton, and his own chakra may not have been that powerful. Zetsu weren't that much of a joke, they did what they were intended for and still dealt serious damage.

[Rikudou King]

Oh. Doesn't necessarily mean it's the REVERSE of the Four Symbol technique, does it? From the looks of it, the seal could deal a lot of damage or wide area of damage. Though, it could be likely that Danzou was better at seals than Hiruzen, so he was able to use it.

I don't know, don't see why it would be named as such if not. Danzo could have been better, but then that opens a whole can of worms for some...

Yamato said he never had the type of chakra Hashirama did that brought life to his Mokuton, and his own chakra may not have been that powerful. Zetsu weren't that much of a joke, they did what they were intended for and still dealt serious damage.

Still shows that just having his cells weren't enough. The Zetsus were only a threat when they started ambushing people while transformed. Outside of that, they were a minor annoyance.

[KingOfNight]

And Sasuke defeated Orochimaru and Itachi, both shown superior to Sarutobi, thus putting him over the Hokage. Period.

And he defeated someone stronger than someone stronger than those two. Done.

Meaning you're assuming things. Prefect.

Ah that's right. I can't believe I let that slip my mind. Here in the left-middle panel He stopped his attack for a moment. And here Darui said "He gave up his arm". He lost it intentionally. I win.

Um, no it wasn't. Aside from the fact that it would make Obito's late comment make no sense, there's not a single sign that Sasuke's MS has multiple genjutsu techniques. I love how you call others out for making assumption, yet constantly do it yourself.

How would it make no sense ? And how was I making assumptions ? Here, he clearly said that Sasuke casted the Genjutsu slightly before he noticed the last Sharingan closing. Done. It's stated to be a different Genjutsu and confirmed to have been cast at a different time. Period.

Yes it is. You outright claim that fighting Sasuke wasn't in the same league and I totally disproved that using your own logic. Also find it interesting you didn't response to your previous claim of "me" changing the topic.

Again, Sasuke is not in Hashirama's league. And I didn't respond because I got your point from that. When I don't respond to something It means I got the point from it.

No, they all have the same brain controlling them, meaning all their actions can be compared to each other.

Dude...It's a manga Get over it. Kishimoto writes it however he want.

So you're denying what Kishi has outright stated about natures and bloodline limits in both the series and databooks? Clap, clap, clap. Beautiful how you're disregarding your own argument.

Kekkie Genkai is not counted as a normal Jutsu if you don't know.
Oh and when you failed to deny that you resorted to sarcasm. Beautiful. I won, he can use every technique. Done.

Except the Hachibi isn't puny. Look at the size of Team Taka in comparison. Not even sure how you got puny from those links when Team Taka is shown as tiny dots. And how is using head size pathetic when it shows it in comparison to a person? Not to mention I also showed him in comparison to Gamabunta.

...Didn't you notice the "in comparison to the Kyuubi " part ?

Which was later reconned as just half it's chakra. And we know for a fact the Kyuubi has regain it's Yin chakra because of the whole Bijuu Blast training, which was shown using both Yin and Yang to form it.

Not every white and black thing is Yin-Yang, if you can't tell. But this requires a little lesson :
Creating the Bijuudama requires positive black chakra which name is " purasu no kuro chakura" and Negative white chakra named " mainasu no shiro chakura". Clearly there is nothing about Yin-Yang there. You just assumed "oh black and white= Yin-Yang". The Yang chakra is used to breath life into things, which is why when Naruto controlled the Yang chakra from the Kyuubi, the trees reacted to it life-giving chakra and grown. He still lacked the Yin half which was sealed. So yeah, your proof is useless, or rather not a proof to begin with. Done. You don't need to reply to what is done, so we can get this over with.

Um, that's the only way to translate it. It makes no sense for the Hachibi to counter the Kyuubi's previous statement of strength unless he was disagreeing.

Um, I not sure how that proves anything, since the situations were clearly different. The Hachibi wasn't drawing upon it's own life force to create the Bijuu Blast. Every other time we've seen the Kyuubi create a Bijuu Blast, it's of similar size as the Hachibi's was.

It is done, because I'm using actual evidence, not trying to make things up.

When he said don't judge by tail, doesn't mean he's not acknowledging Kurama as the strongest. He most likely meant there a more to strength than just tails. Of course I said most likely because it's not clear yet, that's why you shouldn't use that as a proof.

That aside, when did they say he was drawing on his life force ?

Oh yeah, me bringing direct proofs is making it up. But you changing everything slightly to suit your argument is an "Actual evidence".

My source is the actual series, which makes it clear those techniques can one-shot anyone. We were outright told by Kishi of their power. And since there's nothing stating otherwise, we have to use what we've been shown. So without proof to the contrary, it's true by default. This is canonical fact.

Okay then, bring me a page from the actual series that said these techniques can one-shot anyone. Or these techniques actually one-shotting anyone for that matter. It shouldn't be hard sense your source is the "Actual series".

Ee cracked it using one of his strongest attacks, not a punch. I love how you're ignoring how it happen.

I'm sorry what ? Did I say anything about it being a punch or his strongest attack ? Where did you make that up ? He broke through it and floored Sasuke alone. Seeing as you avoided saying anything to counter that. I win. Their Susanoos are not equal.

So, you just skip large parts of the series, right? Seeing as the majority of Edo summons were defeated, not sure why you would single this out. Anyway, taking complete control and binding the Edo summon to one's will requires the user to know the Edo summon's skills to fight effectively. Kabuto choose otherwise to allow his Edo summons to fully fight their own way.

And you translated that into "Here have your emotions, without them you will be very weak". He simply "implied" that keeping their emotions increase their effectiveness in combat. However, here he stated clearly that he would rather erase their emotions in which would make them better at combat, something which even Obito thought would be better. And he clearly stated that keeping their emotions help only in a psychological warfare. This is an even more powerful proof than your own.

[M3J]

I don't know, don't see why it would be named as such if not. Danzo could have been better, but then that opens a whole can of worms for some...

Still shows that just having his cells weren't enough. The Zetsus were only a threat when they started ambushing people while transformed. Outside of that, they were a minor annoyance.

Translation error? Dunno. How is it like a reverse Four Symbol seal though? It may, but we only have words to go by, not facts. It's still opinion that HIruzen knew every single jutsu in Konoha, or that he was the strongest hokage ever. The only thing that's fact in relation to him is that he's the longest-living hokage, having been one for about forty years.

Could also show that not enough experiment was done on Yamato like it was on Danzou, as he was abandoned soon after getting injected with the cells.

I don't think the Zetsu were meant for anything but transforming into the enemy. And possibly for luring Naruto out.

[xXan]

@M3J

So was Minato but he still popped back into play, both as flashback and in Naruto's mind. Hashirama was sealed but he managed to pop back into play indirectly.

Not stating its imposible just that i don't see it happening. Minato was relevant for Naruto, the main guy. It was about Kurama and control. Then he was tied to the main bad guy, well Tobi was at that time... Not sure now.

He didn't have a kekkei genkai or special powers, and he did age quite a bit.

So did several other caracter but they where damn good in there old age. Also special powers? Who cares.... If that was 1vs1 i could understand but it was Sarutobi + Konoha ffs... No excuses there for his bad performance.

Only by teleporting it away. Without Hiraishin, the Kyuubi would have blown apart Konoha with the bijuu bomb, and Minato would have been helpless for hte most part. And yes, Kakuzu and HIdan did have special power to deal with the bijuu... we even see Hidan using it to take out that jinchuuriki.

You know when you stated "only because" its absurd man. Its his kill... Fact is just about anybody else is better then him (top tier). What you whant to start stating how horible Sarutobi is because with no Emma (spelling) he would be horible vs Oro and his 2 EDO's?

What did Hidan use? I forgot? Was it any tipe of jutsu that effects only Biju's like K does to Superman? Or sharingan, mokuton and so on to Kurama? Was it a special ability? If Hidan used his magic circle is irrelevant.

So? How would he have stopped the bijuu bomb if he didn't have Hiraishin? I think only Hashirama could have done that for sure.

Who cares HE DID had it. I am not arguing with you if Minato would be better if you remove his most vital skills... Nobody is removing anything from Sarutobi... Minato's skill is perfecly legit AND its not a keke... This showes how GOOD he was.

He sealed yang (or yin?) chakra away, not half of its chakra. Why would Minato waste time sealing half of Kyuubi's chakra away if it could regenerate?

No he sealed half of its chakra. Not yin/yang. That is long forgoten and retconed. Both times when Minato is adresing it its made clear its just half its chakra/power. He made it clear that is the max he can seal as anything more is imposible. If he could he would have sealed 75% or whatever. It has nothing to do with yin/yang anymore.

Maybe that's how powerful it is at half power, and its full power could be so much more powerful than all eight bijuu combined. Kyuubi was said to be the strongest bijuu ever, second to Juubi.

Well obviously as it has 9 but to asume its this powerfull when its at half power makes me scrach my head...

Then his chakra mode is just as big as the 8 tails. You can argue here its just chakra but its a reprezentation of Kurama's form. So she does have the same hight she used to have... Even when poping out of CT and you can remember hot big it was... That CT was formed out of MOUNTAINS.

People like Zabuza wanted to be careful, since there were clans and animals that could detect their scent. If a ninja could divert his chakra to his nose,t hen why did Kakashi summon Pakkun and told it to find Gaara or Sasuke? Why not tell Sakura, Shikamaru, or Naruto to do that? When hunting for Itachi and/or Sasuke, why did Kakashi give everyone but Kiba a pair of dogs to track?

Why would anybody if having the chanse give a gun to a cop to defend him and not a random x individual with no skill in gun usage? Your answer its simple, those where better that that job.
Think about it, we know Kakashi can do it BUT he used the dogs to go after Zabuza after he was marked. That had a double use as it also grabed Zabuza so he can't get away but still.

I never said it was restricted or a jutsu, but it doesn't look like a common thing. I don't need anything more than what the manga shows - not even JIraiya used his nose to track Tsunade. So far, we've only seen Kakashi, Hiruzen, Kiba, and his clan use their nose to track. Even when others could have used their nose to track over other things.

Why would JMan use his nouse to track Tsunade? If i would be him i would put up a barrier but anyhow i don't get it, Tsunade?

Its no need to see the entire world. Its not something specific or hard. Its puting chakra in your nouse. Its easy as hell. Yeah perhaps they can't do it as good and i can give you that but diverting chakra to there nouse... Come on lol.

@KingOfNight

I don't get it, don't you care for events in the manga? Only things that where stated? Would you need someone direcly stating that Madara can take down Konahamaru to accept he can? What if Tsunade states now that Konahamaru can take down Madara? Would that be acceptable evidence for you?
Also don't you care to compare the feats displayed by caracters in the manga and deduce (that is why we have brains, to think, deduce and get something out of it) who is the better fighter? We don't need Kishi feeding us the answer. We can deduce that one ourself.

When Bee that is a huge octopus can't get out of the dome how is Sarutobi supposed to?

Now IF Hidan get's Sarutobi's blood he is defenetly 1 shoot at that point. All Hidan needs is to hit his own hearth. Sarutobi can't do anything about that.

Take Itachi, this guy would 1 shoot him to with genjutsu...
Sasuke with Amaterasu.
Naruto with shunshin before Sarutobi even knows what is happening or a Bijduama to the face.
Raikage with pure speed. Nothing Sarutobi can do to doge.
Tsukisage asuming he get's a jinton off.

This list keeps going.

Also it is retconed the fact that it was yin and yang. If posible Minato would seal more but it was imposible to do so. He just sealed half its chakra as anything more then that is IMPOSIBLE. It was a percentage out of the hole of posible chakra capacity. Its not half because that is the Yang. It was because more then that is not posible.

Kishi does this stuff for the plot. Same with ET zombies themselfs as i pointed out before. In part 1 Oro could summon Minato and Sarutobi can stop it BUT in part 2 it was made clear this is imposible.

[KingOfNight]

xXan

You need to understand that I don't want to discuss a battle here, which is why I'm asking him to keep his battle assumption to himself. Just because a Jutsu can do that doesn't make it an established fact he can one-shot him. Hidan didn't one-shot Kakashi, Shikamaru or Azuma so why would he one-shot Sarutobi ? And B had to save that other guy as well which was a major disadvantage.

Minato sealed half of the Kyuubi chakra, he said so himself, I can't believe I'm actually bothering to argue this.

[xXan]

@KingOfNight

You can still make logical deduction on how caracter would do based on the showings they had. Is it clear that THIS si how its going to turn up? Not even Kishi knows that as he can change his mind...
Hidan did not 1 shoot those dudes because he needed the blood first. He killed Asuma when he had it after having some fun. Even Kakuzu lost a hearth (so died) because of it. Asuming he has Sarutobi's blood all he needs to do is impale him own brain killing Sarutobi instantly.

Minato sealed half that is true but not the yin/yang part. If he could he would have sealed more but it was not posible.

[KingOfNight]

@KingOfNight

You can still make logical deduction on how caracter would do based on the showings they had. Is it clear that THIS si how its going to turn up? Not even Kishi knows that as he can change his mind...
Hidan did not 1 shoot those dudes because he needed the blood first. He killed Asuma when he had it after having some fun. Even Kakuzu lost a hearth (so died) because of it. Asuming he has Sarutobi's blood all he needs to do is impale him own brain killing Sarutobi instantly.

Yes. And those deduction should be in the battle section. It's wrong to come in here and make them a 100% fact.

Minato sealed half that is true but not the yin/yang part. If he could he would have sealed more but it was not posible.

Naruto showing the power of the Yang chakra, pretty much confirms it. He lost his Yin half.

[Hakuteiken]

Technically speaking, if Hidan was to sneak in to a hospital's blood bank, that village was done for
But that's not the point. The deduction was simple, since he was probably going to be unaware of Hidan's ability as Asuma was, and wouldn't even care about taking a minor injury.
Though, this is indeed not a fact. That's why we said he could and not he did.

---------- Post added at 03:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 AM ----------

Naruto showing the power of the Yang chakra, pretty much confirms it. He lost his Yin half.

Um, I don't know about this, to be honest. Power of the Yang chakra? It was hinted somewhere? If so, that's fine. I might have missed it.

[KingOfNight]

Hakuteiken

Um, I don't know about this, to be honest. Power of the Yang chakra? It was hinted somewhere? If so, that's fine. I might have missed it.

Yes, hinted here. The life giving ability is the properties of Yang natured chakra.

[marshall313]

This thread is all about hiruzen and not minato.

Minato has nothing to do in this thread.

[Uchiha_Blood]

This thread is all about hiruzen and not minato.

Minato has nothing to do in this thread.

^When a Minato fan tells you something like this, you know you have done something wrong.

[xXan]

@KingOfNight

Naruto showing the power of the Yang chakra, pretty much confirms it. He lost his Yin half.

Never did. He showed Kurama's chakra and nothing more.

Yes, hinted here. The life giving ability is the properties of Yang natured chakra.

Hinted? Its clearly stated what it is here:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-56332-...apter-505.html

Its Kurama's chakra. Thing is its effected by the will aparently. If it has Kurama's will and he is bad then it goes evil, Naruto taking it and purifing it ends up good. No idea how you got to this conclusion... Aparently even the ability to detect evil was intact to Hashirama's wife.

Before Naruto removed the will and he whent tails it burned crep and it was pure poison even hard to breath in it...

[KingOfNight]

@KingOfNight





Never did. He showed Kurama's chakra and nothing more.



Hinted? Its clearly stated what it is here:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-56332-...apter-505.html

Its Kurama's chakra. Thing is its effected by the will aparently. If it has Kurama's will and he is bad then it goes evil, Naruto taking it and purifing it ends up good. No idea how you got to this conclusion... Aparently even the ability to detect evil was intact to Hashirama's wife.

Yes...it's Kurama's chakra. What about it ?

What's in my mind only ? What's the point of this reply ? I don't get it ?

[M3J]

Not stating its imposible just that i don't see it happening. Minato was relevant for Naruto, the main guy. It was about Kurama and control. Then he was tied to the main bad guy, well Tobi was at that time... Not sure now.

So did several other caracter but they where damn good in there old age. Also special powers? Who cares.... If that was 1vs1 i could understand but it was Sarutobi + Konoha ffs... No excuses there for his bad performance.

True, but we didn't know he'd be relevant, just like how we don't know if Hiruzen will be relevant. He can still make an appearance... he already did when Danzou had a flashback. HIruzen could still be tied to Naruto or Madara somehow.

Special power is what enabled many shinobi to take on bijuu. But, Hiruzen and Konoha managed to push the Kyuubi back... Kyuubi, the most powerful bijuu at the time. Quite a mean feat even if Hiruzen did need Konoha to help.

You know when you stated "only because" its absurd man. Its his kill... Fact is just about anybody else is better then him (top tier). What you whant to start stating how horible Sarutobi is because with no Emma (spelling) he would be horible vs Oro and his 2 EDO's?

What did Hidan use? I forgot? Was it any tipe of jutsu that effects only Biju's like K does to Superman? Or sharingan, mokuton and so on to Kurama? Was it a special ability? If Hidan used his magic circle is irrelevant.

Not really, since Minato's unknown. But the point is, something special is needed to take on the bijuu, at least alone. Minato needed Hiraishin, the Fourth Kazekage needed gold mixed with sand, Third Raikage needed tough body, etc. It's how they could take on bijuu on their own, while Hiruzen has no such power to speak of. Even Danzou had Mokuton and Sharingan to help him (theoretically).

Hidan takes the blood of his victim and does a ritual. If he gets hurt, the victim feels the same pain too. Hidan killed Asuma by stabbing himself in a vital area. His special ability affects any living thing that bleeds.

It's not irrelevant. Though I think we're talking about bijuu, not jinchuuriki. In that case, Hiruzen would stand a better chance because jinchuuriki are limited, as we see with Naruto and his bijuu mode.

Who cares HE DID had it. I am not arguing with you if Minato would be better if you remove his most vital skills... Nobody is removing anything from Sarutobi... Minato's skill is perfecly legit AND its not a keke... This showes how GOOD he was.

You don't understand the point here. I'm saying, a special ability is required to take on a bijuu alone. Hiruzen had none, hence why he needed backup. Even then they still pushed back the Kyuubi.

No he sealed half of its chakra. Not yin/yang. That is long forgoten and retconed. Both times when Minato is adresing it its made clear its just half its chakra/power. He made it clear that is the max he can seal as anything more is imposible. If he could he would have sealed 75% or whatever. It has nothing to do with yin/yang anymore.

How does that go against him sealing yin/yang? Yin or yang can still be half of Kyuubi's power. I doubt he'd have sealed that much since the Kyuubi was meant for Naruto.

Well obviously as it has 9 but to asume its this powerfull when its at half power makes me scrach my head...

Then his chakra mode is just as big as the 8 tails. You can argue here its just chakra but its a reprezentation of Kurama's form. So she does have the same hight she used to have... Even when poping out of CT and you can remember hot big it was... That CT was formed out of MOUNTAINS.

Considerin that it still looks as small as it did after Minato sealed half of its chakra, it's hard to believe it got its chakra back. I think the Kyuubi's claw was big enough to make a huge hole in Minato and Kushina, but now its claw doesn't look big enough to do that damage. Kyuubi was a lot larger than what we see now.

Why would Minato seal half of Kyuubi's chakra with Death God seal if the Kyuubi was just gonna get its chakra back? Makes no sense.

Why would anybody if having the chanse give a gun to a cop to defend him and not a random x individual with no skill in gun usage? Your answer its simple, those where better that that job.
Think about it, we know Kakashi can do it BUT he used the dogs to go after Zabuza after he was marked. That had a double use as it also grabed Zabuza so he can't get away but still.

Doesn't make any sense here as we see no one else using their nose throughout the manga. If all it took was chakra to the nose, then Sakura should theoretically be the best since her chakra control is among the best.

The dogs were used as surprise attacks, not because Kakashi was unable to track or was worse. Kakashi himself could have gotten Zabuza, but he needed to surprise Zabuza and hold him down. The dogs were able to do that without a problem.

Why would JMan use his nouse to track Tsunade? If i would be him i would put up a barrier but anyhow i don't get it, Tsunade?

Its no need to see the entire world. Its not something specific or hard. Its puting chakra in your nouse. Its easy as hell. Yeah perhaps they can't do it as good and i can give you that but diverting chakra to there nouse... Come on lol.

Easier to find her than asking people around? Not only that, but he could have detected whether anyone was with Tsunade by smelling another scent on her. Trackin via smell would have been more useful than asking people around.

Apparently that's not easy, since it's hard enough to put enough chakra on foot to walk on trees, and to keep constant amount of chakra flowing like walking on water. If it was easy, why bother summoning dogs to track someone like Sasuke, Gaara, or Itachi?