The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[xXan]

@M3J

Special power is what enabled many shinobi to take on bijuu. But, Hiruzen and Konoha managed to push the Kyuubi back... Kyuubi, the most powerful bijuu at the time. Quite a mean feat even if Hiruzen did need Konoha to help.

I don't care what it enabled. Minato used the teleport only to save Sarutobi's arse. He stoped Kurama with seals and seals alone. He even had a shield that would not allow Kurama to leave.

Diference is from Minato stoping it alone to Sarutobi doing crep nothing with a village behind his arse. Again i could understand if it was a 1vs1 but like this? Patetic. This si the godlike shinobi as Kishi puts it.

Also they pushed out Kurama when Tobi lost control of Kurama and that gave them an opening.. Why do you think it happened at the same exact time? Even there and Minato saved there buts.

Not really, since Minato's unknown. But the point is, something special is needed to take on the bijuu, at least alone. Minato needed Hiraishin, the Fourth Kazekage needed gold mixed with sand, Third Raikage needed tough body, etc. It's how they could take on bijuu on their own, while Hiruzen has no such power to speak of. Even Danzou had Mokuton and Sharingan to help him (theoretically).

No. Minato can stop it with hos seals alone... Kurama was NOT stoped by his ST... ST only saved Hiruzen's arse.

Sarutobi not having jutsus to stop Kurama with an entire village when he was said to be the strongest Kage and a godlike shinobi is just epic lol.

Hidan takes the blood of his victim and does a ritual. If he gets hurt, the victim feels the same pain too. Hidan killed Asuma by stabbing himself in a vital area. His special ability affects any living thing that bleeds.

The victim most defenetly does not feelt the same pain. The victim does get hurt the same way but the pain is diferent. Some people can take it more easy then some. Also Hidan could not do anything that would kill the host. So non letal force only.... Also i don't remember him getting it from a biju, only a host. Does it even work on a biju?

It's not irrelevant. Though I think we're talking about bijuu, not jinchuuriki. In that case, Hiruzen would stand a better chance because jinchuuriki are limited, as we see with Naruto and his bijuu mode.

Same question as above. It was on a host not a biju from what i remember. I would love to see Hidan get blood from Kurama and then starting to kill himself to hurt Kurama... That would be epic lol...

You don't understand the point here. I'm saying, a special ability is required to take on a bijuu alone. Hiruzen had none, hence why he needed backup. Even then they still pushed back the Kyuubi.

1 Naruto did it with nothing but seals.
2 Sarutobi did had backup and that is the point. He failed completly WITH said help...

From my part you don't understand the point, point is Sarutobi with help FAILED BADLY. If he was 1vs1 (said this a lot of times now) i could understand but when Minato can seal the bloody thing away and stop its movements with shields and he can't do crep shit (sorry for the language) with the bloody village behind his back it get's completly ridicolus for the man stated to be the strongest Kage and godlike.

How does that go against him sealing yin/yang? Yin or yang can still be half of Kyuubi's power. I doubt he'd have sealed that much since the Kyuubi was meant for Naruto.

It does as Minato states he is sealing as much chakra as he can. He does not state anything about sealing the yang or yin chakra or anything of the likes. He said about chakra capacity and how much is possible for a man to seal. Seriously its retconed.
In part 1 people could summon ET zombies from the DG belly and people could stop said summons with handseals... Then in part 2 was made clear by Kabuto that this is imposible.

Considerin that it still looks as small as it did after Minato sealed half of its chakra, it's hard to believe it got its chakra back. I think the Kyuubi's claw was big enough to make a huge hole in Minato and Kushina, but now its claw doesn't look big enough to do that damage. Kyuubi was a lot larger than what we see now.

If nothing else Kishi is bad with sizes. Even in curent chapters. Looked at this stuff before. In 1 panel naruto is bigger then that monkey biju teeths and in other smaller ... or something like that. I don't remember exacly and to lazy to look for them.

Why would Minato seal half of Kyuubi's chakra with Death God seal if the Kyuubi was just gonna get its chakra back? Makes no sense.

Think of what 50% did to Minato, a full grown man. It left him close to incapacitated. Sealing the entire thing in a newborn would be to dangerous. It does make sense. Then as Naruto grows up and Kurama regenerates all will be well as Naruto grows with it.

Obviously its not direcly stated but that is how it looked to me.

Doesn't make any sense here as we see no one else using their nose throughout the manga. If all it took was chakra to the nose, then Sakura should theoretically be the best since her chakra control is among the best.

Depends. Aside for, perhaps when she was a little kid and in the mist when did she need it?

Easier to find her than asking people around? Not only that, but he could have detected whether anyone was with Tsunade by smelling another scent on her. Trackin via smell would have been more useful than asking people around.

Depends on the situation, it depends on the plot and other thing. Detecting her in an entire city is not the same as doing it when she get's into close proximity like with Sarutobi and the 2 kages... The number of people and smells .... It would make it to hard... Also Sarutobi did not track anybody in an entire city. It was close proximity, melee distance actualy.

Apparently that's not easy, since it's hard enough to put enough chakra on foot to walk on trees, and to keep constant amount of chakra flowing like walking on water. If it was easy, why bother summoning dogs to track someone like Sasuke, Gaara, or Itachi?

Because those can do it better and because what i said just above. People showed it in h2h range. Not accross huge distances.

[Uchiha_Blood]

On the issue of Kyuubi's chakra:
With Shiki Fuuin, I can seal half of Kyuubi's chakra forever
Minato sealed the Yin chakra using the Shiki Fuuin
Minato sealed the Yang chakra in Naruto

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

Someone can take half my blood away... FOREVER... Gues what... I can make more. So this is irrelevant.

The other links are just as ??? marks as aparently it was retconed. Those are not relevant anymore. Minato would have sad if it was Yin or Yang. All he stated is that he is sealing half the chakra in himself as more then that is IMPOSIBLE. He addresed it clear enough... He sealed some of its power in himself and some in Naruto. Nothing about Yin/Yang crep.

Part 1 you can summon crep from DG sealing jutsu. Part 2 and Kishi needing it not to happend and aparently you can't... Retcons..

[Uchiha_Blood]

You don't understand the point here. I'm saying, a special ability is required to take on a bijuu alone. Hiruzen had none, hence why he needed backup. Even then they still pushed back the Kyuubi.

Define special ability.
If by special ability you mean Mokuton and Sharingan's suppression abilities, then Third and Fourth Raikage, Hidan and Kakuzu, Tobi and Deidara and finally Naruto showed to be able to match Bijuus without them.

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood


Minato defeated Kurama with nothing but seals. ST was needed to save Sarutobi's old arse.

[Hakuteiken]

Define special ability.
If by special ability you mean Mokuton and Sharingan's suppression abilities, then Third and Fourth Raikage, Hidan and Kakuzu, Tobi and Deidara and finally Naruto showed to be able to match Bijuus without them.

Naruto himself is a Jinchuuriki, so, he's a bit irrelevant.
Aside from that, a Kekkei Genkai needed to counter it, or, you have to be like the Raikage with super durable bodies.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood

Someone can take half my blood away... FOREVER... Gues what... I can make more. So this is irrelevant.

The other links are just as ??? marks as aparently it was retconed. Those are not relevant anymore. Minato would have sad if it was Yin or Yang. All he stated is that he is sealing half the chakra in himself as more then that is IMPOSIBLE. He addresed it clear enough... He sealed some of its power in himself and some in Naruto. Nothing about Yin/Yang crep.

Part 1 you can summon crep from DG sealing jutsu. Part 2 and Kishi needing it not to happend and aparently you can't... Retcons..

How it is retconned if Yondaime's summoning failed?
Kabuto said pretty clearly Oro failed to summon Yondaime because his soul was trapped.

As for the sealing issue, how it is retconned? What suggests that Kyuubi regained that missing half, when Yondaime and Jiraiya, the two most knowledgeable guys in the matter said otherwise?

[Hakuteiken]

@Uchiha_Blood


Minato defeated Kurama with nothing but seals. ST was needed to save Sarutobi's old arse.

Minato didn't defeat the Kyuubi. He had no way to handle it on his own.
His greatest technique is Hiraishin, and you cannot take down a Bijuu with a kunai.

[Uchiha_Blood]

@Uchiha_Blood


Minato defeated Kurama with nothing but seals. ST was needed to save Sarutobi's old arse.

Are seals special abilities?
That's my point, one can subdue a Bijuu without having haxed and convenient abilities

Naruto himself is a Jinchuuriki, so, he's a bit irrelevant.
Aside from that, a Kekkei Genkai needed to counter it, or, you have to be like the Raikage with super durable bodies.

In their battle though he couldn't access Kyuubi's chakra, so that was all him until Kushina showed up.
As for Gekkei Kenkais, Hidan, Kakuzu, Deidara and Yondaime did so without them, if I'm not mistaken ( I remember all of their abilities being Hijutsus )

[xXan]

Minato didn't defeat the Kyuubi. He had no way to handle it on his own.
His greatest technique is Hiraishin, and you cannot take down a Bijuu with a kunai.

Sure he did. Sealing Kurama away is defeating her. He did that and he only needs his seals for it.

@Uchiha_Blood

I know seals are not a special ability. I was enforcing what you said lol.

---------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

How it is retconned if Yondaime's summoning failed?
Kabuto said pretty clearly Oro failed to summon Yondaime because his soul was trapped.

As for the sealing issue, how it is retconned? What suggests that Kyuubi regained that missing half, when Yondaime and Jiraiya, the two most knowledgeable guys in the matter said otherwise?

You don't summon them direcly in the fight like Kabuto showed to Tobi. He had Minato PREPED.
Then Sarutobi himself states HE stoped it. That is it. Cler indication of this. Sarutobi knew the jutsu and he knew Minato is in the DG but he states HE stoped it.

JMan stated at that point and it was fact at that point. Later it was retconed with Minato stating about just sealing some chakra away, as much as he could. 2 times is Minato addresing what he sealed and both time its just CHAKRA. Nothing about yin/yang.

[Hakuteiken]

In their battle though he couldn't access Kyuubi's chakra, so that was all him until Kushina showed up.
As for Gekkei Kenkais, Hidan, Kakuzu, Deidara and Yondaime did so without them, if I'm not mistaken ( I remember all of their abilities being Hijutsus )

It brings the same question. Was it the Kyuubi at his best? What if the Kyuubi wasn't able to create chakra when he was jailed in and did so after being freed up?
My bad, you are right. Hidan and Kakuzu didn't have a Kekkai Genkai, indeed, but they were like immortal and had Hidan's hax technique to prevail. Can't agree with Yondaime, though.

---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------

Sure he did. Sealing Kurama away is defeating her. He did that and he only needs his seals for it.

In my book, Shiki Fuujin can never be considered a sign of defeat. As long as you have enough strength to pull out your opponent's soul/chakra, you can seal him. Does it really matter? Every other character stated in the thread defeated a Jinchuuriki with transformation abilities or showed anything along the lines that they were at least able to withstand it.

[xXan]

@Hakuteiken

You can call it whatever you whant. Point is Minato with nothing but his seals could save the village and stop Kurama's rampage. Sarutobi with an army behind him could only delay it, push it out of the village after Minato broke the link with Tobi and gave them an opening and in the end Sarutobi's dudes hoping for Minato to save there buts.

[Hakuteiken]

If Hiruzen was able to get that close to Kyuubi thanks to Kushina restraining it, he would be able to seal it, too.

[Uchiha_Blood]

You don't summon them direcly in the fight like Kabuto showed to Tobi. He had Minato PREPED.
Then Sarutobi himself states HE stoped it. That is it. Cler indication of this. Sarutobi knew the jutsu and he knew Minato is in the DG but he states HE stoped it.

JMan stated at that point and it was fact at that point. Later it was retconed with Minato stating about just sealing some chakra away, as much as he could. 2 times is Minato addresing what he sealed and both time its just CHAKRA. Nothing about yin/yang.

Let's agree to disagree

It brings the same question. Was it the Kyuubi at his best? What if the Kyuubi wasn't able to create chakra when he was jailed in and did so after being freed up?
My bad, you are right. Hidan and Kakuzu didn't have a Kekkai Genkai, indeed, but they were like immortal and had Hidan's hax technique to prevail. Can't agree with Yondaime, though.

Yondaime did what he did to give Naruto the chance to control Kyuubi ( half of Kyuubi's chakra is better than all of it, expecially for an infant ) and, at the same time, to seal Kushina's chakra and his own into Naruto's.
See the databooks entry for the seals Yondaime used to seal ( ) Kyuubi

Four Images Seal (四象封印, Shishou Fuuin)
Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Yondaime Hokage

A sealing formula that seals evil using a circle four images!!

As the result of a fuuinjutsu, a sealing formula is carved into, for instance, a human body or an object. The "Four Images Seal" is one of these. This sealing formula is mainly used when a giant enemy or evil spirit needs to be sealed. To use it, it is necessary for the user to have great ability. In Naruto, two of these "Four Images Seals" have been carved. This is called an "Eight Trigrams Sealing-style"*.

[picture of an infant Naruto with the freshly carved Kyuubi seal on his stomach]
→On Naruto's abdomen is the "Sealing Formula of the Kyuubi." The Yondaime Hokage performed it on the infant Naruto.

*Eight Trigrams Sealing-style (八卦の封印式, Hakke no Fuuin-shiki)

Eight Trigrams* Sealing-style (八卦の封印式, Hakke no Fuuin-shiki)
Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Yondaime Hokage

The double seal that sealed the Kyuubi's immense chakra~~~

When the Yondaime Hokage sealed the Demon Fox inside of Naruto, the effect was made stronger by putting together two "Four Symbols Seals"**. At that time, he also left an opening at the space where the sealing formulas meet, allowing the Demon Fox's chakra to merge with Naruto's chakra. This sealing-style, because it consists of two "Four Symbols Seals," is called an "Eight Trigrams Sealing-style".

[picture of the Kyuubi attacking Konoha]
←The tremendous Demon Fox's chakra is inside the small body of Naruto!!

*The Eight Trigrams (Bāguà in Chinese) come from Taoist cosmology and are closely related to the concept of Yin-Yang.
**Four Images Seal (四象封印, Shishou Fuuin)

Its obvious that, if he wanted to, he could seal the full Kyuubi inside Naruto without killing himself in the process.
Mind you, you need incredibly haxed abilities to deal with Bijuus, as you said yourself, but they don't need to be auto-win abilities like Mokuton and Sharingan imo

[Hakuteiken]

Yondaime did what he did to give Naruto the chance to control Kyuubi ( half of Kyuubi's chakra is better than all of it, expecially for an infant ) and, at the same time, to seal Kushina's chakra and his own into Naruto's.
See the databooks entry for the seals Yondaime used to seal ( ) Kyuubi

Four Images Seal (四象封印, Shishou Fuuin)
Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Yondaime Hokage

A sealing formula that seals evil using a circle four images!!

As the result of a fuuinjutsu, a sealing formula is carved into, for instance, a human body or an object. The "Four Images Seal" is one of these. This sealing formula is mainly used when a giant enemy or evil spirit needs to be sealed. To use it, it is necessary for the user to have great ability. In Naruto, two of these "Four Images Seals" have been carved. This is called an "Eight Trigrams Sealing-style"*.

[picture of an infant Naruto with the freshly carved Kyuubi seal on his stomach]
→On Naruto's abdomen is the "Sealing Formula of the Kyuubi." The Yondaime Hokage performed it on the infant Naruto.

*Eight Trigrams Sealing-style (八卦の封印式, Hakke no Fuuin-shiki)

Eight Trigrams* Sealing-style (八卦の封印式, Hakke no Fuuin-shiki)
Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Yondaime Hokage

The double seal that sealed the Kyuubi's immense chakra~~~

When the Yondaime Hokage sealed the Demon Fox inside of Naruto, the effect was made stronger by putting together two "Four Symbols Seals"**. At that time, he also left an opening at the space where the sealing formulas meet, allowing the Demon Fox's chakra to merge with Naruto's chakra. This sealing-style, because it consists of two "Four Symbols Seals," is called an "Eight Trigrams Sealing-style".

[picture of the Kyuubi attacking Konoha]
←The tremendous Demon Fox's chakra is inside the small body of Naruto!!

*The Eight Trigrams (Bāguà in Chinese) come from Taoist cosmology and are closely related to the concept of Yin-Yang.
**Four Images Seal (四象封印, Shishou Fuuin)

Its obvious that, if he wanted to, he could seal the full Kyuubi inside Naruto without killing himself in the process.
Mind you, you need incredibly haxed abilities to deal with Bijuus, as you said yourself, but they don't need to be auto-win abilities like Mokuton and Sharingan imo

But he said himself it was physically impossible to seal it as a whole. I just don't get this. Then why on the earth he killed himself along?
The Raikage definitely didn't have auto-win abilities, so, I agree, but without that assistance, the only other way to cope with them is to have a crazily strong body or be fuuinjutsu master or something.

---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 AM ----------

Ah, got the point now. Naruto's body wouldn't be able to handle the full power of the Bijuu.
Then, this makes Shiki Fuujin inferior to Hakke Fuuin in that sense.