The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[Uchiha_Blood]

But he said himself it was physically impossible to seal it as a whole. I just don't get this. Then why on the earth he killed himself along?
The Raikage definitely didn't have auto-win abilities, so, I agree, but without that assistance, the only other way to cope with them is to have a crazily strong body or be fuuinjutsu master or something.

---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 AM ----------

Ah, got the point now. Naruto's body wouldn't be able to handle the full power of the Bijuu.
Then, this makes Shiki Fuujin inferior to Hakke Fuuin in that sense.

Yep, the difference though is that while Shiki Fuuin seals chakra away permanently ( at least in theory, but we saw Oro not regaining use of his arm despite changing bodies and whatnot ), Hakke Fuuin simply seals it in a container, where it can be unsealed ( its no coincidence that Naruto's seal weakened over time, Kyuubi's chakra likely corroded it ).
Hakke Fuuin is temporary, Shiki Fuuin is eternal.

On the Bijuu fight, yes, basically you either outlast it or seal it, let's not forget they are massive chakra beasts with incredible powers, being able to shoot lasers and shit
Just to understand how great they are, do remember that 9 S rank ninjas needed 3 days straight to seal even the weakest Bijuus

[Rikudou King]

And he defeated someone stronger than someone stronger than those two. Done.

Except he didn't, going solely by the act of defeating someone.

Ah that's right. I can't believe I let that slip my mind. Here in the left-middle panel He stopped his attack for a moment. And here Darui said "He gave up his arm". He lost it intentionally. I win.

He didn't stop, he braced himself, else he would have flew forward when he swung. Darui thinking so doesn't mean Ee thought so, which was your claim. As mentioned, you can't have it both ways.

How would it make no sense ? And how was I making assumptions ? Here, he clearly said that Sasuke casted the Genjutsu slightly before he noticed the last Sharingan closing. Done. It's stated to be a different Genjutsu and confirmed to have been cast at a different time. Period.

Obito mocked Danzo for underestimating Sasuke's Tsukuyomi because it wasn't like Itachi's. Makes no sense for Danzo and Obito to compare Itachi's Tsukuyomi and it's ability to control time to the genjutsu Sasuke was using unless said genjutsu was Tsukuyomi also. It would obviously lack the strength of Tsukuyomi if it wasn't Tsukuyomi. And you're arguing that Sasuke has two different MS genjutsus, an assumption that has nothing to back it up.

Again, Sasuke is not in Hashirama's league. And I didn't respond because I got your point from that. When I don't respond to something It means I got the point from it.

Clearly he is, if he's stronger then the person who defeated Hashirama. And claiming that the commit has nothing to do with said discussion is not acknowledge of getting the point.

Dude...It's a manga Get over it. Kishimoto writes it however he want.

Um, I get that. Most of the people in this thread get that. Which is why we all understand that he makes mistakes and changes things that were previously stated.

Kekkie Genkai is not counted as a normal Jutsu if you don't know.
Oh and when you failed to deny that you resorted to sarcasm. Beautiful. I won, he can use every technique. Done.

But bloodline limits make use of techniques, such as Amaterasu and Empty Palm. And since Orochimaru stated techniques with no specifics, the point still stands. Also notice you skipped over the whole natures part too. I didn't fail to deny, I merely mimicked you.

...Didn't you notice the "in comparison to the Kyuubi " part ?

Which again, the Hachibi isn't puny "in comparison to the Kyuubi" as pointed out.

Not every white and black thing is Yin-Yang, if you can't tell. But this requires a little lesson :
Creating the Bijuudama requires positive black chakra which name is " purasu no kuro chakura" and Negative white chakra named " mainasu no shiro chakura". Clearly there is nothing about Yin-Yang there. You just assumed "oh black and white= Yin-Yang". The Yang chakra is used to breath life into things, which is why when Naruto controlled the Yang chakra from the Kyuubi, the trees reacted to it life-giving chakra and grown. He still lacked the Yin half which was sealed. So yeah, your proof is useless, or rather not a proof to begin with. Done. You don't need to reply to what is done, so we can get this over with.

Yin-Yang nature is responsible for all non-elemental techniques, which the Bijuu Blast falls under. Heck, considering the Yin part governs it's shape and spirit, just like the Yang governs it's life, I'm interesting to hear how you can think the Kyuubi can still exist without it. Not to mention that to even create chakra, one needs both physical and spiritual energy, which is what Yin-Yang is. And since the Kyuubi was shown creating chakra...

When he said don't judge by tail, doesn't mean he's not acknowledging Kurama as the strongest. He most likely meant there a more to strength than just tails. Of course I said most likely because it's not clear yet, that's why you shouldn't use that as a proof.

That aside, when did they say he was drawing on his life force ?

Oh yeah, me bringing direct proofs is making it up. But you changing everything slightly to suit your argument is an "Actual evidence".

It is him not acknowledging the Kyuubi as strongest. Again, it makes no sense for the Hachibi to counter the Kyuubi's previous statement of strength unless he was disagreeing with it. It would make no sense to bring it up in that context.

Um, we see it drawing upon it's own life, getting skinnier to make it. We saw the same condition with Nagato and Gedo Mazo.

You brought a situational example, and I countered with another showing differently. I haven't changed anything.

Okay then, bring me a page from the actual series that said these techniques can one-shot anyone. Or these techniques actually one-shotting anyone for that matter. It shouldn't be hard sense your source is the "Actual series".

Asuma one-shotted and Kirabi one-shotted.

I'm sorry what ? Did I say anything about it being a punch or his strongest attack ? Where did you make that up ? He broke through it and floored Sasuke alone. Seeing as you avoided saying anything to counter that. I win. Their Susanoos are not equal.

Context matters, no matter how much you try to ignore it. Ee had to use his strongest attack to break Sasuke's Susanoo, something that wasn't used on Madara's Susanoo. The attacks that did hit both of them did comparable damage. Their Susanoo's were shown similar, outside the obviously differences.

And you translated that into "Here have your emotions, without them you will be very weak". He simply "implied" that keeping their emotions increase their effectiveness in combat. However, here he stated clearly that he would rather erase their emotions in which would make them better at combat, something which even Obito thought would be better. And he clearly stated that keeping their emotions help only in a psychological warfare. This is an even more powerful proof than your own.

That, along with what we saw from all the Edo summons, pretty much prove such. He doesn't simply imply it. Not once did he say that erasing their emotions make them better in combat and considering he didn't do that when battle started... Nor did he claim that emotions only help in psychological warfare. The only benefit to making them mindless is that their emotions could potentially be used to release themselves.

Translation error? Dunno. How is it like a reverse Four Symbol seal though? It may, but we only have words to go by, not facts. It's still opinion that HIruzen knew every single jutsu in Konoha, or that he was the strongest hokage ever. The only thing that's fact in relation to him is that he's the longest-living hokage, having been one for about forty years.

The Four Symbol seal allows Naruto to draw upon the Kyuubi's chakra, so the reverse pulling things in does make sense. Agree with the whole opinion thing.

Could also show that not enough experiment was done on Yamato like it was on Danzou, as he was abandoned soon after getting injected with the cells.

The experiments on Danzo seem to have been more for the Sharingans and Izanagi, and considering that Danzo can't even really use Mokuton like Yamato, Yamato seem to have gotten the better of it.

I don't think the Zetsu were meant for anything but transforming into the enemy. And possibly for luring Naruto out.

I suppose, though then there shouldn't have been much reason to make them physically stronger. Plus one would think the transforming would have been done much sooner if that was the sole purpose. Then again, not like this war has made any sort of sense since it started.

On the issue of Kyuubi's chakra:
With Shiki Fuuin, I can seal half of Kyuubi's chakra forever
Minato sealed the Yin chakra using the Shiki Fuuin
Minato sealed the Yang chakra in Naruto

Naruto took the majority of the Kyuubi's chakra, yet it was back to normal soon after even though it hadn't been stealing chakra from Naruto. And the Kyuubi was recently shown gathering chakra, which requires both physical and spiritual energy, which is what Yin-Yang is.

[M3J]

Define special ability.
If by special ability you mean Mokuton and Sharingan's suppression abilities, then Third and Fourth Raikage, Hidan and Kakuzu, Tobi and Deidara and finally Naruto showed to be able to match Bijuus without them.

No, by special ability I mean what Hashirama, Madara, previous two Raikage and Kazekage, Deidara, and even Kakuzu had. Naruto is the only one who showed the ability to match Kyuubi's power without having special power. Though, he did get eaten by the Yonbi despite having Kyuubi's chakra.

Minato didn't defeat the Kyuubi. He had no way to handle it on his own.
His greatest technique is Hiraishin, and you cannot take down a Bijuu with a kunai.

His supposed greatest techinque is Hiraishin. But yeah, Minato never defeated the Kyuubi, he only teleported it away to avoid it destroying Konoha and only sealed it in Naruto.

Ah, got the point now. Naruto's body wouldn't be able to handle the full power of the Bijuu.
Then, this makes Shiki Fuujin inferior to Hakke Fuuin in that sense.

I disagree, it should have been able to handle the full power of the Kyuubi with Minato's seal. So far it was able to contain half of Kyuubi's power without a problem. I don't think that's a good excuse at all. Only excuse that'd work would be Minato knowing about the Juubi and Tobi's possible plan.

The Four Symbol seal allows Naruto to draw upon the Kyuubi's chakra, so the reverse pulling things in does make sense. Agree with the whole opinion thing.

Oh right, that does kind of make sense. But wasn't the seal designed to seal bijuu in? If it's supposed to be reverse, then it should pull people out or something, kinda like what Sasuke did to Orochimaru from Anko's CS.

The experiments on Danzo seem to have been more for the Sharingans and Izanagi, and considering that Danzo can't even really use Mokuton like Yamato, Yamato seem to have gotten the better of it.

Has he even tried, though? I think we saw only one or two instances, the rest were focused on Izanagi and one or two jutsu out of that.

I suppose, though then there shouldn't have been much reason to make them physically stronger. Plus one would think the transforming would have been done much sooner if that was the sole purpose. Then again, not like this war has made any sort of sense since it started.

Naruto took the majority of the Kyuubi's chakra, yet it was back to normal soon after even though it hadn't been stealing chakra from Naruto. And the Kyuubi was recently shown gathering chakra, which requires both physical and spiritual energy, which is what Yin-Yang is.

Physically stronger would have allowed them to last longer if hit or something, I guess. Weren't they taken down, but still able to transform?

It did steal some chakra from Naruto though, as Naruto himself commented. And we don't know if it was back to normal, maybe it got enough chakra to get back to looking like normal, like Nagato did to Bee.

Kyuubi could be an exception to that rule though. *shrugs*

[Rikudou King]

Oh right, that does kind of make sense. But wasn't the seal designed to seal bijuu in? If it's supposed to be reverse, then it should pull people out or something, kinda like what Sasuke did to Orochimaru from Anko's CS.

I believe Minato used a different seal technique to actually seal the Kyuubi within Naruto. The Four Symbol specifically allows Naruto to take the Kyuubi's chakra, so in that regard it is acting in reverse.

Has he even tried, though? I think we saw only one or two instances, the rest were focused on Izanagi and one or two jutsu out of that.

Not really, but the few times were quite elementary in comparison, along with the whole "having to keep Hashirama cells from taking him over" situation.

Physically stronger would have allowed them to last longer if hit or something, I guess. Weren't they taken down, but still able to transform?

It did steal some chakra from Naruto though, as Naruto himself commented. And we don't know if it was back to normal, maybe it got enough chakra to get back to looking like normal, like Nagato did to Bee.

Kyuubi could be an exception to that rule though. *shrugs*

They really didn't show any greater durability then the previous Zetsus or spore clones.

The Hachibi implied otherwise, and at the very least, the Kyuubi surely didn't take that much. Nagato absorbed eight tails worth of chakra, so that's not all that good an example. Besides, the Kyuubi's recent action have it doing likewise without having to take any chakra from Naruto. Don't really see why the Kyuubi could be an exception.

[M3J]

What other seal did he use, then? Can't be shiki fuuin based on what we've seen and know.

Which further shows how powerful the cells are. It apparently gives some kind of boost as well if it's able to extend Izanagi's time somehow.

Kyuubi could have taken some of Naruto's life force as well to get his own appearance back. I dunno, it could have taken enough and used it to get into Sage Mode to recover. Kyuubi has never tried to get into Sage Mode before, so it's already pretty weird. And, the Juubi's automatically in Sage Mode, or has natural energy flowin through it and able to utilize it. Shouldn't the same be of the bijuu, who were born from the Juubi's chakra?

[Rikudou King]

What other seal did he use, then? Can't be shiki fuuin based on what we've seen and know.

Don't know, wasn't gone much into. Though I wouldn't doubt the Shiki Fuuin if modified.

Which further shows how powerful the cells are. It apparently gives some kind of boost as well if it's able to extend Izanagi's time somehow.

Yeah, though wish we've seen such dangerous with all of the others running around with his cells. Could be a reasonable way for them to finally succeed against Madara, if they end up weakening him and using Naruto to advance the growth of the cells to overtake him. Actually wouldn't be much of an asspull as some other solutions.

Kyuubi could have taken some of Naruto's life force as well to get his own appearance back. I dunno, it could have taken enough and used it to get into Sage Mode to recover. Kyuubi has never tried to get into Sage Mode before, so it's already pretty weird. And, the Juubi's automatically in Sage Mode, or has natural energy flowin through it and able to utilize it. Shouldn't the same be of the bijuu, who were born from the Juubi's chakra?

Even then, the sheer difference between their avalible amounts would still mean the Kyuubi had to gather back still quite alot more then he could have achieved from Naruto. I wouldn't say the Kyuubi was employing Sage Mode by just meditating, not this soon around. The Juubi's questionable though, because even before it got back the Bijuu's chakra, it's corpse was alive. And the Rikudou Sennin was stated to have taken the Juubi's "chakra" for create the Bijuus along with his own ability. If they were like the Juubi, then they probably wouldn't need to gather back said chakra, not to mention all the situations where a Bijuu's chakra was taken/sealed/stolen.

[xXan]

If Hiruzen was able to get that close to Kyuubi thanks to Kushina restraining it, he would be able to seal it, too.

Minato had his own shields to limit Kurama's movements. The chains where good as it gave them (and Kishi...) the ability to chat and chat and chat... Thing is Minato had shields that can stop Kurama and keep him inside.

[KingOfNight]

Rikudou King

Except he didn't, going solely by the act of defeating someone.

He did. We're done.

He didn't stop, he braced himself, else he would have flew forward when he swung. Darui thinking so doesn't mean Ee thought so, which was your claim. As mentioned, you can't have it both ways.

Yes actually I can have it both way (If I got what you mean by both ways). I showed him stopping, you can take it however you want, that's fine. But, there is no arguing that Darui said he gave it up intentionally, he's A's right hand man and a shinobi smart enough to tell that he lost it intentionally. Not to mention it was stated that he "Took extreme measures", further showing he's done that intentionally. We're done man, We're DONE.

Obito mocked Danzo for underestimating Sasuke's Tsukuyomi because it wasn't like Itachi's. Makes no sense for Danzo and Obito to compare Itachi's Tsukuyomi and it's ability to control time to the genjutsu Sasuke was using unless said genjutsu was Tsukuyomi also. It would obviously lack the strength of Tsukuyomi if it wasn't Tsukuyomi.

Indeed, he does seem to imply that Sasuke used Tsukyomi. But then again he said it's weak, so this helps my point that it's a pitiful Genjutsu (at least in Sasuke's hand).

Clearly he is, if he's stronger then the person who defeated Hashirama.

You're assuming that.

And claiming that the commit has nothing to do with said discussion is not acknowledge of getting the point.

It's true I said it has nothing to do with the discussion, you reminded me, I got the point. What's hard to understand about that ?

Um, I get that. Most of the people in this thread get that. Which is why we all understand that he makes mistakes and changes things that were previously stated.

No. You're not arguing that he makes mistake, your argument is: Why did Hashirama do this ? why didn't he do that ? what's the point of using this ?

Which is not about how Kishimoto makes mistakes. You basically wants him to write the manga the way YOU like it.

But bloodline limits make use of techniques, such as Amaterasu and Empty Palm. And since Orochimaru stated techniques with no specifics, the point still stands. Also notice you skipped over the whole natures part too. I didn't fail to deny, I merely mimicked you.

I skipped it because you also tried to avoid my proof with sarcasm, I'm the one who mimicked you. That aside notice the bold part, wasn't Orochimaru also planning to learn every Jutsu ? And that's after the whole Nature\Bloodline stuff. How would you explain that ? Perhaps what was meant by Sarutobi being able to use every technique is different from what we think. But that doesn't matter because he was said to be able to use every technique in Konoha so...yeah. And for what it's worth Amaterasu is also considered Doujutsu, so it's not an ordinary Jutsu. And since you can't prove what Orochimaru said is wrong, it's done.

Which again, the Hachibi isn't puny "in comparison to the Kyuubi" as pointed out.

Puny or not, he's much smaller. Done. Stop with the useless replies already.

Yin-Yang nature is responsible for all non-elemental techniques, which the Bijuu Blast falls under. Heck, considering the Yin part governs it's shape and spirit, just like the Yang governs it's life, I'm interesting to hear how you can think the Kyuubi can still exist without it. Not to mention that to even create chakra, one needs both physical and spiritual energy, which is what Yin-Yang is. And since the Kyuubi was shown creating chakra..

Yin-Yang release is different from Yin and Yang separately. Yin release makes use of spiritual power such as Genjutsu. Yang release makes use of physical powers. We don't know for a fact that the Bijuu blast comes from Yin or Yang let alone Yin-Yang release. So avoid saying nonsense. That's why I said you change proofs to your liking. You take something unexplained or weird and make it seem like an established fact. I'll just leave what Uchiha_Blood posted with a little extra :
Here ,here ,here and here

Be it Yin-Yang case or not. The Kyuubi only has half it's power and that's that. Done.

Heck, considering the Yin part governs it's shape and spirit, just like the Yang governs it's life, I'm interesting to hear how you can think the Kyuubi can still exist without it.

Good point. Take it to Kishi.

It is him not acknowledging the Kyuubi as strongest. Again, it makes no sense for the Hachibi to counter the Kyuubi's previous statement of strength unless he was disagreeing with it. It would make no sense to bring it up in that context.

Um, we see it drawing upon it's own life, getting skinnier to make it. We saw the same condition with Nagato and Gedo Mazo.

Nothing makes sense to you apparently. Still, we have no way to make sure what he meant, he said don't judge by tails, but didn't argue that Kurama is the strongest.

That's not drawing it's life force. Nagato ended up like that because he exhausted his chakra. Chakra is most likely their life force. As far as we know, he just had some chakra left sense Naruto said "you still have that much power".

You brought a situational example, and I countered with another showing differently. I haven't changed anything.

Then refrain from saying I'm trying making things up.

Asuma one-shotted and Kirabi one-shotted.

You're idea of one-shotted is, fighting for who knows how many chapters and getting his head sewed again after it was cut ? And same thing with the second case only instead of getting his head sewed he needed a hostage ? I don't think you understand what one-shot means.

Context matters, no matter how much you try to ignore it. Ee had to use his strongest attack to break Sasuke's Susanoo, something that wasn't used on Madara's Susanoo. The attacks that did hit both of them did comparable damage. Their Susanoo's were shown similar, outside the obviously differences.

I never tried to ignore that, but okay. Show me where it was said that him swinging his arm and flooring Sasuke is his strongest attack. But that's doesn't matter, because he broke through to him. And Tsunade who has a stronger attack couldn't break Madara's. We're done.

That, along with what we saw from all the Edo summons, pretty much prove such. He doesn't simply imply it. Not once did he say that erasing their emotions make them better in combat and considering he didn't do that when battle started... Nor did he claim that emotions only help in psychological warfare. The only benefit to making them mindless is that their emotions could potentially be used to release themselves.

Him saying he prefers to erase their emotions, implies something. And no ! For the last time no ! You're are assuming that based on how you saw "from all the Edo summons". Just read what he said in the same page upper-left panel. "People become torn and confused" and goes on. I just said psychological warfare, for short.

[xXan]

@Rikudou King

Question, going by the premise of Sasuke having Tsukyomi but with no ability to control time.

Does this also mean Sasuke has Kotoamatsukami but with no ability to control a man the way Kotoamatsukami can?

Can Kotoamatsukami be Kotoamatsukami when it is missing the very thing that makes said genjutsu unique? If it can't then how can Tsukyomi be Tsukyomi if Tsukyomi is a genjutsu with the ability to control time?

Even Sasuke when using MS genjutsu just stated GENJUTSU.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/585/12
Take note that Itachi states Tsukyomi.
What Danzo compared in those panels is Sasuke's ability to cast genjutsu with his MS eye to that of Itachi's. I really don't see how from this you can get the fact that he also has Tsukyomi. Its like stating FRS is rasengan but with no wind chakra. Or Amaterasu is Katon but only more powerfull and Kakashi himself can do it.

Even here:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/480/4

All i see is Tobi stating how Sasuke's ability in genjutsu(with MS) can't even be compared to Itachi's Tsukyomi .

I am a firm beliver that Sasuke does not have Tsukyomi, in its place he has Amaterasu manipulation. If you noticed Sasuke is using 1 eye to cast it and nother to manipulated it. This is a indication that Sasuke has Amaterasu manipulation in "Tsukyomi's" eye.

[Hakuteiken]

I disagree, it should have been able to handle the full power of the Kyuubi with Minato's seal. So far it was able to contain half of Kyuubi's power without a problem. I don't think that's a good excuse at all. Only excuse that'd work would be Minato knowing about the Juubi and Tobi's possible plan.

Not that I disagree, but Minato couldn't possibly know of the Juubi concept back then. It was an unknown element even to Oonoki, the oldest alive Kage in the Kage Summit, right?
And even if he knew something about that, he would also predict they could go along with the transformation with just a bit of a chakra, so, sealing the full beast or half of it wouldn't really save the world in that sense.

---------- Post added at 03:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 AM ----------

No. You're not arguing that he makes mistake, your argument is: Why did Hashirama do this ? why didn't he do that ? what's the point of using this ?

Which is not about how Kishimoto makes mistakes. You basically wants him to write the manga the way YOU like it.

No, it is basically the way manga should have been written, not related to personal preference.
Kishimoto can basically make Shikamaru to awake the Rinnegan out of nowhere and defeat the Juubi on his own. Would you be fine with that, too? If we are reading the manga, we have every right to criticize and rationalize it.

I skipped it because you also tried to avoid my proof with sarcasm, I'm the one who mimicked you. That aside notice the bold part, wasn't Orochimaru also planning to learn every Jutsu ? And that's after the whole Nature\Bloodline stuff. How would you explain that ? Perhaps what was meant by Sarutobi being able to use every technique is different from what we think. But that doesn't matter because he was said to be able to use every technique in Konoha so...yeah. And for what it's worth Amaterasu is also considered Doujutsu, so it's not an ordinary Jutsu. And since you can't prove what Orochimaru said is wrong, it's done.

Doujutsu not an ordinary Jutsu? What does this have to do with the argument, anyway? Orochimaru was probably referring to it that way, since Sharingan was more or less wiped out from the village. Anyway, can he use Hyuuga's Taijutsu? Or let alone the Hyuuga, can he use the techniques Gai uses? Nothing suggests that he is able to do it, either. Orochimaru would only be able to perceive it right if he had seen all the jutsu in Konoha and I can't see him having done so.

Puny or not, he's much smaller. Done. Stop with the useless replies already.

Really? It doesn't look like it's much smaller here.
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/610/9

You're idea of one-shotted is, fighting for who knows how many chapters and getting his head sewed again after it was cut ? And same thing with the second case only instead of getting his head sewed he needed a hostage ? I don't think you understand what one-shot means.

It doesn't matter if it's happening in one-panel or a thousand-panels. Hidan has a technique that allows him to defeat a Jinchuuriki / Bijuu in a moment, something Hiruzen doesn't have. That's enough about this argument, I suppose.

Him saying he prefers to erase their emotions, implies something. And no ! For the last time no ! You're are assuming that based on how you saw "from all the Edo summons". Just read what he said in the same page upper-left panel. "People become torn and confused" and goes on. I just said psychological warfare, for short.

I didn't get what the argument was about. Orochimaru hadn't mastered the jutsu to the degree that he could leave out there with emotions. Kabuto stated that later on. He developed the technique to control them and still leave them conscious. Orochimaru would probably have lost the control completely if he was to try leaving them conscious.
Other than that, being mindless doesn't improve a reincarnated body's chances in the fight.

[xXan]

@Hakuteiken


If Oro left them the ability to think Tobirama would escape the jutsu(like Madara) and jump his arse :P
Good chanse for even Hashirama to know the seals IF Madara knew them... Hashirama was Tobirama's bro.

Also i would like to add this:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/439/13
Kurama sure does not look small there... And its not even fully formed.

[Hakuteiken]

@Hakuteiken


If Oro left them the ability to think Tobirama would escape the jutsu(like Madara) and jump his arse :P
Good chanse for even Hashirama to know the seals IF Madara knew them... Hashirama was Tobirama's bro.

Did anyone have the slightest of the idea that it was possible to break out of the contract, though?
Even the jutsu users didn't bring up the topic. Were they just hiding it or were they also unaware, too?

[KingOfNight]

Hakuteiken

No, it is basically the way manga should have been written, not related to personal preference.
Kishimoto can basically make Shikamaru to awake the Rinnegan out of nowhere and defeat the Juubi on his own. Would you be fine with that, too? If we are reading the manga, we have every right to criticize and rationalize it.

There are many thinks I'm not okay with, MANY. But still...would that change anything ? Criticizing I understand. But that's a whole different thing. He's not criticizing, he's asking me ! How am I supposed to know that ? I don't have a problem with criticizing a manga, that's natural. But he is coming to weird conclusions, such as : "They weren't fighting to win". And it's like what the hell ? The fight was written like that, and that's how it is. Asking me weird questions isn't doing anything.

Doujutsu not an ordinary Jutsu? What does this have to do with the argument, anyway? Orochimaru was probably referring to it that way, since Sharingan was more or less wiped out from the village. Anyway, can he use Hyuuga's Taijutsu? Or let alone the Hyuuga, can he use the techniques Gai uses? Nothing suggests that he is able to do it, either. Orochimaru would only be able to perceive it right if he had seen all the jutsu in Konoha and I can't see him having done so.

I don't know that. What I know is, Hiruzen can use every Jutsu in Konoha. Orochimaru wants to obtain every Jutsu in the world. And just so you know, not all jutsus are elemental ones. In fact, None of the Jutsu's Orochimaru used are elemental.

Really? It doesn't look like it's much smaller here.
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/610/9

I know right ? He's not that much smaller than the SHRUNKEN Kyuubi.

It doesn't matter if it's happening in one-panel or a thousand-panels. Hidan has a technique that allows him to defeat a Jinchuuriki / Bijuu in a moment, something Hiruzen doesn't have. That's enough about this argument, I suppose.

But again, a battle between those two didn't occur. How do you know that he can one-shot him when he got decapitated by someone much weaker than Hiruzen ?

I didn't get what the argument was about. Orochimaru hadn't mastered the jutsu to the degree that he could leave out there with emotions. Kabuto stated that later on. He developed the technique to control them and still leave them conscious. Orochimaru would probably have lost the control completely if he was to try leaving them conscious.
Other than that, being mindless doesn't improve a reincarnated body's chances in the fight.

He had control over them even when they were conscious. He erased their emotions later.

[xXan]

Did anyone have the slightest of the idea that it was possible to break out of the contract, though?
Even the jutsu users didn't bring up the topic. Were they just hiding it or were they also unaware, too?

No idea about the users themselfs but i would say no going by what Madara stated here:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/591/17

Here to, to that point he alowed it because he knew he can escape at any point:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/592/4

Of coruse you can look at his words diferently but i think he was pointing out that they did not know of this posibility.

Then Tobirama who made the jutsus should most defenetly know how to do it and if Madara somehow found out then Hashirama should also have known. Now why they did not do it in part 1 or at least try before losing there minds? Because Kishi himself did not know at that point that its posible :P

@KingOfNight

Kurama and the 8 tails ALWAYS had the same hight. IF his real safe is as big as the chakra mode one this is clear indication he is no longer the SHRUNKEN version as you put it.

[Hakuteiken]

There are many thinks I'm not okay with, MANY. But still...would that change anything ? Criticizing I understand. But that's a whole different thing. He's not criticizing, he's asking me ! How am I supposed to know that ? I don't have a problem with criticizing a manga, that's natural. But he is coming to weird conclusions, such as : "They weren't fighting to win". And it's like what the hell ? The fight was written like that, and that's how it is. Asking me weird questions isn't doing anything.

Unfortunately, that's what the essence of the discussion is limited to. This is a discussion and we are trying to discuss the proposed arguments. If we were to stick to what is stated as facts, albeit fragile ones as seen as the manga developed, that wouldn't be really a discussion.

I don't know that. What I know is, Hiruzen can use every Jutsu in Konoha. Orochimaru wants to obtain every Jutsu in the world. And just so you know, not all jutsus are elemental ones. In fact, None of the Jutsu's Orochimaru used are elemental.

I know that. But many of the jutsu are also elemental, and you cannot use a jutsu of an element you have no affinity towards. In Hiruzen's case, he can use Fire and Earth jutsu, but not Wind jutsu, like Orochimaru does.

I know right ? He's not that much smaller than the SHRUNKEN Kyuubi.

I don't think it's shrunken or something.

But again, a battle between those two didn't occur. How do you know that he can one-shot him when he got decapitated by someone much weaker than Hiruzen ?

Who is that person? Shikamaru?
Shikamaru was succesful in decapitating him only because he survived that first battle and learned about his power and also had Kakashi to help him trick Hidan. Without prior knowledge, Hiruzen can't deal with him, because he won't even have an idea he has to avoid close-range combat not to get a scar.

He had control over them even when they were conscious. He erased their emotions later.

You mean before he placed the tags? I think he can control them to stand by and not do anything, but anything more than that is beyond the jutsu's limits.

---------- Post added at 04:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 AM ----------

No idea about the users themselfs but i would say no going by what Madara stated here:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/591/17

Here to, to that point he alowed it because he knew he can escape at any point:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/592/4

Of coruse you can look at his words diferently but i think he was pointing out that they did not know of this posibility.

Then Tobirama who made the jutsus should most defenetly know how to do it and if Madara somehow found out then Hashirama should also have known. Now why they did not do it in part 1 or at least try before losing there minds? Because Kishi himself did not know at that point that its posible :P

Yes, it's possible.
Though I didn't like this development at all, since Edo Tensei already had its weakness. Now, it's degenerated into trash.