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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #826
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I disagree, it should have been able to handle the full power of the Kyuubi with Minato's seal. So far it was able to contain half of Kyuubi's power without a problem. I don't think that's a good excuse at all. Only excuse that'd work would be Minato knowing about the Juubi and Tobi's possible plan.
    Not that I disagree, but Minato couldn't possibly know of the Juubi concept back then. It was an unknown element even to Oonoki, the oldest alive Kage in the Kage Summit, right?
    And even if he knew something about that, he would also predict they could go along with the transformation with just a bit of a chakra, so, sealing the full beast or half of it wouldn't really save the world in that sense.

    ---------- Post added at 03:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No. You're not arguing that he makes mistake, your argument is: Why did Hashirama do this ? why didn't he do that ? what's the point of using this ?

    Which is not about how Kishimoto makes mistakes. You basically wants him to write the manga the way YOU like it.
    No, it is basically the way manga should have been written, not related to personal preference.
    Kishimoto can basically make Shikamaru to awake the Rinnegan out of nowhere and defeat the Juubi on his own. Would you be fine with that, too? If we are reading the manga, we have every right to criticize and rationalize it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I skipped it because you also tried to avoid my proof with sarcasm, I'm the one who mimicked you. That aside notice the bold part, wasn't Orochimaru also planning to learn every Jutsu ? And that's after the whole Nature\Bloodline stuff. How would you explain that ? Perhaps what was meant by Sarutobi being able to use every technique is different from what we think. But that doesn't matter because he was said to be able to use every technique in Konoha so...yeah. And for what it's worth Amaterasu is also considered Doujutsu, so it's not an ordinary Jutsu. And since you can't prove what Orochimaru said is wrong, it's done.
    Doujutsu not an ordinary Jutsu? What does this have to do with the argument, anyway? Orochimaru was probably referring to it that way, since Sharingan was more or less wiped out from the village. Anyway, can he use Hyuuga's Taijutsu? Or let alone the Hyuuga, can he use the techniques Gai uses? Nothing suggests that he is able to do it, either. Orochimaru would only be able to perceive it right if he had seen all the jutsu in Konoha and I can't see him having done so.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Puny or not, he's much smaller. Done. Stop with the useless replies already.
    Really? It doesn't look like it's much smaller here.
    http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/610/9

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You're idea of one-shotted is, fighting for who knows how many chapters and getting his head sewed again after it was cut ? And same thing with the second case only instead of getting his head sewed he needed a hostage ? I don't think you understand what one-shot means.
    It doesn't matter if it's happening in one-panel or a thousand-panels. Hidan has a technique that allows him to defeat a Jinchuuriki / Bijuu in a moment, something Hiruzen doesn't have. That's enough about this argument, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Him saying he prefers to erase their emotions, implies something. And no ! For the last time no ! You're are assuming that based on how you saw "from all the Edo summons". Just read what he said in the same page upper-left panel. "People become torn and confused" and goes on. I just said psychological warfare, for short.
    I didn't get what the argument was about. Orochimaru hadn't mastered the jutsu to the degree that he could leave out there with emotions. Kabuto stated that later on. He developed the technique to control them and still leave them conscious. Orochimaru would probably have lost the control completely if he was to try leaving them conscious.
    Other than that, being mindless doesn't improve a reincarnated body's chances in the fight.

  2. #827
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @Hakuteiken


    If Oro left them the ability to think Tobirama would escape the jutsu(like Madara) and jump his arse :P
    Good chanse for even Hashirama to know the seals IF Madara knew them... Hashirama was Tobirama's bro.

    Also i would like to add this:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/439/13
    Kurama sure does not look small there... And its not even fully formed.

  3. #828
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Hakuteiken


    If Oro left them the ability to think Tobirama would escape the jutsu(like Madara) and jump his arse :P
    Good chanse for even Hashirama to know the seals IF Madara knew them... Hashirama was Tobirama's bro.
    Did anyone have the slightest of the idea that it was possible to break out of the contract, though?
    Even the jutsu users didn't bring up the topic. Were they just hiding it or were they also unaware, too?

  4. #829
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Hakuteiken

    Quote Quote:
    No, it is basically the way manga should have been written, not related to personal preference.
    Kishimoto can basically make Shikamaru to awake the Rinnegan out of nowhere and defeat the Juubi on his own. Would you be fine with that, too? If we are reading the manga, we have every right to criticize and rationalize it.
    There are many thinks I'm not okay with, MANY. But still...would that change anything ? Criticizing I understand. But that's a whole different thing. He's not criticizing, he's asking me ! How am I supposed to know that ? I don't have a problem with criticizing a manga, that's natural. But he is coming to weird conclusions, such as : "They weren't fighting to win". And it's like what the hell ? The fight was written like that, and that's how it is. Asking me weird questions isn't doing anything.

    Quote Quote:
    Doujutsu not an ordinary Jutsu? What does this have to do with the argument, anyway? Orochimaru was probably referring to it that way, since Sharingan was more or less wiped out from the village. Anyway, can he use Hyuuga's Taijutsu? Or let alone the Hyuuga, can he use the techniques Gai uses? Nothing suggests that he is able to do it, either. Orochimaru would only be able to perceive it right if he had seen all the jutsu in Konoha and I can't see him having done so.
    I don't know that. What I know is, Hiruzen can use every Jutsu in Konoha. Orochimaru wants to obtain every Jutsu in the world. And just so you know, not all jutsus are elemental ones. In fact, None of the Jutsu's Orochimaru used are elemental.

    Quote Quote:
    Really? It doesn't look like it's much smaller here.
    http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/610/9
    I know right ? He's not that much smaller than the SHRUNKEN Kyuubi.

    Quote Quote:
    It doesn't matter if it's happening in one-panel or a thousand-panels. Hidan has a technique that allows him to defeat a Jinchuuriki / Bijuu in a moment, something Hiruzen doesn't have. That's enough about this argument, I suppose.
    But again, a battle between those two didn't occur. How do you know that he can one-shot him when he got decapitated by someone much weaker than Hiruzen ?

    Quote Quote:
    I didn't get what the argument was about. Orochimaru hadn't mastered the jutsu to the degree that he could leave out there with emotions. Kabuto stated that later on. He developed the technique to control them and still leave them conscious. Orochimaru would probably have lost the control completely if he was to try leaving them conscious.
    Other than that, being mindless doesn't improve a reincarnated body's chances in the fight.
    He had control over them even when they were conscious. He erased their emotions later.

  5. #830
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Did anyone have the slightest of the idea that it was possible to break out of the contract, though?
    Even the jutsu users didn't bring up the topic. Were they just hiding it or were they also unaware, too?
    No idea about the users themselfs but i would say no going by what Madara stated here:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/591/17

    Here to, to that point he alowed it because he knew he can escape at any point:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/592/4

    Of coruse you can look at his words diferently but i think he was pointing out that they did not know of this posibility.

    Then Tobirama who made the jutsus should most defenetly know how to do it and if Madara somehow found out then Hashirama should also have known. Now why they did not do it in part 1 or at least try before losing there minds? Because Kishi himself did not know at that point that its posible :P

    @KingOfNight

    Kurama and the 8 tails ALWAYS had the same hight. IF his real safe is as big as the chakra mode one this is clear indication he is no longer the SHRUNKEN version as you put it.
    Last edited by xXan; January 11, 2013 at 05:22 AM.

  6. #831
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    There are many thinks I'm not okay with, MANY. But still...would that change anything ? Criticizing I understand. But that's a whole different thing. He's not criticizing, he's asking me ! How am I supposed to know that ? I don't have a problem with criticizing a manga, that's natural. But he is coming to weird conclusions, such as : "They weren't fighting to win". And it's like what the hell ? The fight was written like that, and that's how it is. Asking me weird questions isn't doing anything.
    Unfortunately, that's what the essence of the discussion is limited to. This is a discussion and we are trying to discuss the proposed arguments. If we were to stick to what is stated as facts, albeit fragile ones as seen as the manga developed, that wouldn't be really a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I don't know that. What I know is, Hiruzen can use every Jutsu in Konoha. Orochimaru wants to obtain every Jutsu in the world. And just so you know, not all jutsus are elemental ones. In fact, None of the Jutsu's Orochimaru used are elemental.
    I know that. But many of the jutsu are also elemental, and you cannot use a jutsu of an element you have no affinity towards. In Hiruzen's case, he can use Fire and Earth jutsu, but not Wind jutsu, like Orochimaru does.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I know right ? He's not that much smaller than the SHRUNKEN Kyuubi.
    I don't think it's shrunken or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    But again, a battle between those two didn't occur. How do you know that he can one-shot him when he got decapitated by someone much weaker than Hiruzen ?
    Who is that person? Shikamaru?
    Shikamaru was succesful in decapitating him only because he survived that first battle and learned about his power and also had Kakashi to help him trick Hidan. Without prior knowledge, Hiruzen can't deal with him, because he won't even have an idea he has to avoid close-range combat not to get a scar.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    He had control over them even when they were conscious. He erased their emotions later.
    You mean before he placed the tags? I think he can control them to stand by and not do anything, but anything more than that is beyond the jutsu's limits.

    ---------- Post added at 04:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    No idea about the users themselfs but i would say no going by what Madara stated here:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/591/17

    Here to, to that point he alowed it because he knew he can escape at any point:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/592/4

    Of coruse you can look at his words diferently but i think he was pointing out that they did not know of this posibility.

    Then Tobirama who made the jutsus should most defenetly know how to do it and if Madara somehow found out then Hashirama should also have known. Now why they did not do it in part 1 or at least try before losing there minds? Because Kishi himself did not know at that point that its posible :P
    Yes, it's possible.
    Though I didn't like this development at all, since Edo Tensei already had its weakness. Now, it's degenerated into trash.

  7. #832
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @Hakuteiken

    Yeah, Kurama and the 8 tails have the same hight. If that chakra mode is as big as his real safe then its clear indication that Kurama is back to his normal self.

  8. #833
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't think it's shrunken or something.
    It is. It always been.

    Quote Quote:
    Who is that person? Shikamaru?
    Shikamaru was succesful in decapitating him only because he survived that first battle and learned about his power and also had Kakashi to help him trick Hidan. Without prior knowledge, Hiruzen can't deal with him, because he won't even have an idea he has to avoid close-range combat not to get a scar.
    Which is why I don't want to start an argument like that. There is many factors in a battle you know. There are tons of characters with abilities to one-shot someone, even Sarutobi. Nearly every Jutsu can one-shot you if it hits you directly, but then again who is stupid enough to wait and get hit ? I can argue like you guys and say Konohamaru can create a Rasengan and smash it in Kakashi's face and one-shot him, are you going to believe that ? Which is why this is a useless argument that should be taken to the Konoha arena.

    Quote Quote:
    You mean before he placed the tags? I think he can control them to stand by and not do anything, but anything more than that is beyond the jutsu's limits.
    Yes. They were totally under his control before he placed the tags. He just wanted to make them emotionless.

  9. #834
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It is. It always been.
    Never mind, then. We are on different opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Which is why I don't want to start an argument like that. There is many factors in a battle you know. There are tons of characters with abilities to one-shot someone, even Sarutobi. Nearly every Jutsu can one-shot you if it hits you directly, but then again who is stupid enough to wait and get hit ? I can argue like you guys and say Konohamaru can create a Rasengan and smash it in Kakashi's face and one-shot him, are you going to believe that ? Which is why this is a useless argument that should be taken to the Konoha arena.
    I don't think there are similarities between, but anyway, let's pass, as you suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Yes. They were totally under his control before he placed the tags. He just wanted to make them emotionless.
    Because he wouldn't be able to control them with their emotions left. It was Kabuto's improvement on the technique to be able to completely manipulate them even when they were conscious.

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  11. #835
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Because he wouldn't be able to control them with their emotions left. It was Kabuto's improvement on the technique to be able to completely manipulate them even when they were conscious.
    Hmm... didn't know that !

  12. #836
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    [Naruto took the majority of the Kyuubi's chakra, yet it was back to normal soon after even though it hadn't been stealing chakra from Naruto. And the Kyuubi was recently shown gathering chakra, which requires both physical and spiritual energy, which is what Yin-Yang is.
    There is a big, giant difference.
    Naruto's situation is an equivalent exchange:
    when he uses Kyuubi's chakra, Kyuubi takes his own. And he didn't seal it, he simply took it.
    Yondaime said pretty clearly he sealed half of Kyuubi's chakra forever

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    No, by special ability I mean what Hashirama, Madara, previous two Raikage and Kazekage, Deidara, and even Kakuzu had. Naruto is the only one who showed the ability to match Kyuubi's power without having special power. Though, he did get eaten by the Yonbi despite having Kyuubi's chakra.
    Fourth Kazekage's magnetic release doesn't mean he could automatically suppress Shukaku, he still needed an enormous level of skill to summon gold dust in enough quantity to fight a Bijuu controlling sand in a desert.
    Kakuzu and Deidara's abilities are Hijutsu, meaning they are not Gekkei Kenkais like Sharingan or Mokuton.

    Quote Quote:
    His supposed greatest techinque is Hiraishin. But yeah, Minato never defeated the Kyuubi, he only teleported it away to avoid it destroying Konoha and only sealed it in Naruto.
    Sealing it = Defeating it, as Rikudou Sennin did with Juubi.
    A temporary win, but a win nevertheless imo

    Quote Quote:
    I disagree, it should have been able to handle the full power of the Kyuubi with Minato's seal. So far it was able to contain half of Kyuubi's power without a problem. I don't think that's a good excuse at all. Only excuse that'd work would be Minato knowing about the Juubi and Tobi's possible plan.
    Considering Yondaime, a Kage with remarkable chakra levels was paralyzed by only half, I think an infant Naruto probably couldn't hold the entire Kyuubi in himself, noting also just how much smaller he became once Yondaime sealed the chakra away.
    He was suspicious of Tobi and probably imagined some sort of disaster, but him knowing of Juubi is unlikely. Unless, you know, Kishi remembers to give Senju something regarding Rin'negan and all, instead of giving all to Uchihas

  13. #837
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Naruto2011's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    ive been looking at some scans to see if kurama is trily the same size and i found this...

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c504/9.html

    here kurama has shrunken already and he is clearly large even too humans just look at the middle panel with his nail pierced in minato and kushina, now look at his hand the previous time when he was bigger...

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c504/7.html

    huge difference there, now lets look at one of kuramas recent fist bumps with naruto...

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c570/11.html

    see what im saying?? if Kurama was full size, his fist would be WAY bigger than naruto, look here too

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c570/9.html

    that is the size kurama was when he got shrunken
    I used to believe kurama recovered all his chakra, but now im of the opinion that minato didnt just take his chakra but halved his chakra capacity


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  15. #838
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Hmm... didn't know that !
    That's what I remember from Kabuto's statement, though I failed to remember from which chapter it was.
    If I find the page (or something negating this), I'll put it here later on.

    ---------- Post added at 07:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 AM ----------

    Nice catch, Naruto2011. This may definitely be a good reference for us. If it's not some sort of messed up consistency in terms of art, it's a different size for real.

  16. #839
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member katon_style's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    The only problem is that Kishi shouldn't have put hashi and tobirama on oro edo tensei on part 1.he could have chose different strong shinobis and more edos(ex 10 edo shinobi) like the white fang and some other elites from the past and them together with oro would have been much more credible on killing sarutobi.
    If we want to compare saru with hashi we should compare even their jutsus.
    Hashi:moukuton jutsus(the dragon,jokai koutan,the paralyzing flower etc),suiton jutsus,doton jutsus,sealings,selfhealing ability(byakugou) etc.We have seen the way he defeated madara and kyubi together and we saw too that mokuton was able to reject even a bijudama.
    Saru:karton jutsus,doton jutsus,shuriken kbunshin,enma summon,shiki fujin and all konoha jutsus but u must have an infinite stamina to put them all in a fight and i personally dont think that even the golden age saru couldnt have more stamina and chakra than current naruto.
    Hashi probably is way stronger than Saru.

  17. #840
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Kurama's size:

    Kurama is the same damn size as all the other bijus:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/10

    Same size here still:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/7
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/8
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/10
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/610/9
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/610/13

    I can post more links but no point. Kishi just messed up with his drawings or decided they need to be small now.

    Then in the mind world they all look the same size:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/6

    Then look how big is a human on monkey boy's head:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/8

    Look at Bee also:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/536/4

    Close to this no:

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/538/17
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/539

    Damn close eh? Naruto is the same size as the eye(well more or less).

    Now let's compare THE HAND SIZE as the above poster did:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/570/11

    bottom panel please. Now imagine an open hand... IS IT NOT close to this:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/10

    Keep in mind that first hand is that of a monkey SO LARGER then that of a FOX.

    No idea where it started and how big they where supposed to be but they are not NOW.
    Last edited by xXan; January 11, 2013 at 10:33 AM.

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