The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[xXan]

@Uchiha_Blood

So we got to a point where we are posting the same things over and over again hopping for new arguments to pop out? Sure i can do that to. Here(but i am sure no new arguments are going to "pop"):

Kurama's size:

Kurama is the same damn size as all the other bijus:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/10

Same size here still:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/7
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/8
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/571/10
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/610/9
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/610/13

I can post more links but no point. Kishi just messed up with his drawings or decided they need to be small now.

Then in the mind world they all look the same size:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/6

Then look how big is a human on monkey boy's head:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/8

Look at Bee also:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/536/4

Close to this no:

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/538/17
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/539

Damn close eh? Naruto is the same size as the eye(well more or less).

Now let's compare THE HAND SIZE as the above poster did:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/570/11

bottom panel please. Now imagine an open hand... IS IT NOT close to this:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/572/10

Keep in mind that first hand is that of a monkey SO LARGER then that of a FOX.

No idea where it started and how big they where supposed to be but they are not NOW

That post you quoted does NOT invalidate what me, ninjabot, Rikudou King and others belive.

Kindly provide evidence to disprove Orochimaru's claim ( someone who had no reason to lie and expecially someone who trained years under Hiruzen, and thus knew all about him ), and for evidence I mean someone saying that Hiruzen doesn't know all the jutsus in Konoha
As well as secondary affinities not being showed in the papers, or people saying is impossible to have anything more than his own affinity

Part 1... Hype, praise, baiting and making fun of him... You can't posibly take those words as serious... Words claiming that he knows ALL the jutsus in Konoha...
Hell Sarutobi aparently knew the DG seal and ET summons but he had NO idea that crep sealed with DG can't be summoned back in the word... Figure that...
You whant more? Nagato was GOD going for crep praise nonsense... He could not lose... Well gues what he was God and he could not lose only before meeting Naruto... If you whant to leave in the concept that Sarutobi could know every single jutsu in Konoha then be my gues... I gues he also could do Harem no jutsu if we are at this... Oh and the words used there to atribute Sarutobi's information of all the jutsus in Konoha was not to denote a fact, it was to denote a rumor that he would know them... You don't even a fact coming from Orochimaru's words.

As for the second part.. Show me people claiming that its posible to have more then 3 please. You do that then i do what you asked.. But i hope you are not going to ignore how Kakashi was refering to 3 elements in your link and then about afinities when its 4+ elements... Ignoring and trying to derail the conversation with nonsense (asking me to provide non existing facts) its so not... Logical... We where arguing the links provided by you, aparently you had nothing to add to it and so decided to change to "present links for bla bla bla"...

@marshall313

No actualy what Minato said contradicts what Jman stated. Its not yin/yang... Its half its chakra... Minato would have sealed more but it was physicaly imposible to do so. Its just CHAKRA.

[M3J]

@M3J

So you think Kurama having the same zise with the other biju's in the past and having the same size NOW its not an indication that it has its chakra back? How could he have the normal size with half chakra when we noticed it going smaller? To state that a page showing all the bijus are at the same size means nothing is "wtf" moment...
I even posted a non-canon link above with Kurama having the same size in that fight Hashirama vs Madara like it has now... Yes not canon but i am sure Kishi agrees to the crep its put there.... If Kurama was 2x that size it would probably be seen just as well there...

Wait, when was it shown that the fully grown Kyuubi was the same size as other bijuu? The only time we see them together is during the war, after Kyuubi had half its chakra sealed in Minato. The Kyuubi that attacked Konoha seemed much larger than the Ichibi that came out of Gaara.

How is it "wtf" moment? THat's like me telling you I took away few apples, showing you a basket of apples, and asking you to guess how many there were originally and how many I took away. You can't guess because you don't know how many apples there were originally or how many were taken away. Same applies with the Kyuubi - you don't know how tall it was in comparison to the other bijuu before it had its chakra sealed. Hell, for all we know the bijuu's true size is 2x bigger than what we've seen when the jinchuuriki transformed. I think the turtle is the only bijuu we've seen free, and it was nowhere as big as the Kyuubi, if I recall. If you're confused as to what bijuu I'm talking about, it's the one that Deidara and Tobi got with Deidara's bakuton.

Fact is Kurama was the SAME SIZE as all the other biju's before the seal and it has the SAME SIZE NOW in Naruto's mind and in the real world in chakra mode... So please tell me how the hell is it at half chakra when it is full size and not half size...

That's not a fact at all, considering it seriously does look a lot smaller. When Kyuubi was freed from Kushina, both she and Tobi looked like tiny pricks and hard to see when Kishi was drawing Kyuubi standing. However, I don't think Gai or Kakashi looked that small when standing next to Hachibi or Kyuubi.

Because Kurma was NEVER 2x the size of the other bjus... It was ALWAYS the same size... Posted manga panels of it having the SAME SIZE as all of them... So use something VALID as this is nonsense at this point. At this point you people just IGNORE manga panels with Kurama having the SAME SIZE as all the other bijus to support your point...

Proof? You only posted manga panels having it same size AFTER it had half its chakra sealed. I'm ignoring nothing, I even pointed out why I"m not using that as a fact or basis for Kyuubi having its whole chakra back. All we have to go by are comparisons. Kyuubi easily towered over the trees on four legs while Ichibi and Bunta were few meters taller than the trees.

I am curently facepalming at the notion that you people don't think its possible (key word possible)for Kurama to generate its chakra back... How is this not posible? How can you people not agree that its POSSIBLE? We are all asuming here but not agree that its possible... Its mind boggling to me man.
We know it can be KILLED and have ALL its chakra dispersed and in time it would pop back into play at 100%... Hell i gave you an example before... Someone can take a part of my blood away, PERMANENTLY just like Minato did with Kurama's chakra but i can generate more in time. If its possible or not to regenerate said chakra back was NEVER addressed... So you need to look at other factors to deduce IF its at half power or not. You needing direct links where it is stated its no longer at full power is nonsense... It was never stated it can't get back to full power in the first place.

Of course it's mind boggling to you. But how does Minato saying he sealed half of Kyuubi's chakra contradict what Jiraiya said? Minato never said he didn't seal ying or yang, or could have done so and meant half of its chakra.

We don't know that it can be killed but regenerate. We take it as fact only because it was said so, but we haven't seen it in action, have we?

I did look at other factors, and I did show links and comparison about its size. Once again, why would Minato seal half of its chakra in himself when it'd just recover its chakra in few years?

The trees stuff where already addressed...Not only that it could be diferent trees. Some grow taller then others. Some are older then others (so bigger). Its hard to judge. Try the buldings and how Kurama is not that much bigger then the snake summon and frog summon (links by RK).

I doubt the trees that Naruto and Killerbee fought the jinchuuriki in or the trees in Naruto vs. Gaara are taller than the tree on top of the cliff that Minato and Kushina were on, which Kyuubi easily towered over.

And like I said, Kyuubi was crouching pretty low, at least compared to the frog and snakes.

Well it would be kinda impossible for him to use Gekkei Kenkai jutsus, since he lacks the genetics to do it as well as Hijutsus such as Aburame's ( which need bugs ) or Hyuuga's ( which needs the Byakugan ).
As for personal jutsus, it was my guess, even though its reasonable he had a grasp of some jutsus if of course the inventor of said jutsu was okay with teaching it to him.
We know Yondaime teached only Jiraiya the Rasengan, and Kakashi somehow copied it with his Sharingan ( we don't know if he copied Yondaime or Jiraiya )

I never mentioned him using the jutsu, I was talking about Hiruzen knowing or knowing about the jutsu. Why would Hiruzen not know about Hyuuga's kekkei genkai jutsu when even Kakashi knows it?

We don't know that. I doubt Minato didn't teach Kakashi rasengan, considering chidori was created to replace rasengan, and used before Kakashi ever got his Sharingan. I'm sure Hiruzen knows about chidori and raikiri, as well as rasengan as they're signature jutsu of famous shinobi.

In any case, Hiruzen in his prime probably wouldn't have been able to kill Orochimaru that invaded Konoha, or after the invasion. Even Four-Tailed Kyuubi failed to do that, and Sasuke would have lost if it weren't for genjutsu or plot. Orochimaru was almost unkillable, needing something like bijuu cannon (in his own words anyway) to fully kill him.

[KingOfNight]

Rikudou King

No, I'm well aware of the difference. And how does Madara saying that change the fact that it was shown he was nearly defeated had he not called upon the Rinnengan? If anything, it proves my point, that the powerlevels can't be decided simply by who defeats who.

It doesn't change it. I'm not talking about Madara here so I don't care whether it changes anything or not.

He states they had guessed how he had gained the Rinnegan, and thus their experiments.

Pretty sure he said they simply guessed that the Sharingan evolve into Rinnegan.

Don't recall that term ever being used in the series, and physical techniques are taijutsu. Pretty sure Tenten is proof of this. Yeah, the Rasengan would be, since it was pure chakra that's meant to be transformed into an element. What else would it fall under? I already brought you the pages, you're just choosing to ignore them.

Taijutsu means body techniques, thus hand to hand combat. Weapon skills are Bukijutsu (Weapon techniques).

Into the bold part. The Rasengan is not Yin and Yang technique, it's simply chakra Manipulation. It was stated to be the highest possible level of chakra manipulation. You don't understand, pure chakra is not Yin and Yang. Yin-Yang in of it self is a chakra nature (just like the other five).

We were told by Obito that Yin was spiritual manipulation and Yang was physical manipulation. I'm not even the only person in this thread to point this out to you.

Yes, but here, Obito says Yin and Yang. Had the frog meant the same thing, why couldn't he just say Yin and Yang ? Yin and Yang again, is a chakra element as it is, it can't be what the frog meant.

The chakra that was sealed was lost forever, but nothing prevents the Kyuubi from creating more to replace it. Just like how Orochimaru had the soul portion of his arm taken, but that didn't prevent him from still being able to move them or use some techniques. Fact remains, we know the Kyuubi is back to normal size.

Orochimaru until the very end couldn't use them. Yep, everything you said is useless with this. And nice try in the bold part...

So if something goes against your argument, it's a mistranslation? Can you "show" the right translation then? Orochimaru isn't different. They both got hit by the same technique. The Kyuubi shrunk because it's made up of chakra. Half being taken would of course make it smaller. It's not an assumption when we see the Kyuubi back to normal, have the toads mentioning Naruto using the Kyuub's full power, and have the Kyuubi mentioning creating more chakra. You're the one arguing against fact, as there is nothing in the series mentioning any sort of "halved chakra capacity" as you claimed.

Here is your right translation. The toad said something else, but you with your special ability to change proofs to suit your argument made it into a proof. The Kyuubi was simply restoring his chakra, the same way Naruto restores his sage mode chakra. And halving the Kyuubi's chakra capacity was me putting it in a simple way for you to catch on. He lost half of it forever done.

See previous link. He mentions that Yin is responsible for form and was used by the Rikudou Sennin to grant the Bijuus so.

He used Yin-Yang to create them. He didn't say they will perish without any of the two. I create something with my hand, will it perish if I take my hand away from it ? He used his own Yin-Yang release jutsu called "Banbutsu Sōzō" to create them. And that's that. Stop changing what was said, seriously, in your case this is a talent.

Really? Gamabunta's big enough to hold it down and wrap it's hand around it's arm. That would be impossible if the Kyuubi was "far" bigger.

You should see in that link that Gamabunta as a whole is as big as the Kyuubi's head (Including the neck). As he used all of his body mass just to pin down the head, otherwise they would've shown a panel including all of the Kyuubi's body not simply Gamabunta sitting on his head (while grabbing his arms). The Kyuubi isn't a flying head and arms you know. And don't show me the next page, I saw it, nothing to negate my argument.

We see it sacrificing it's own life, far different then it's normal method. And then I brought up Nagato as a similar example. No need to be facetious, since despite your "claim", you're still arguing.

You made an assumption after seeing it drained out of power, that's all. A direct statement of it using it's life force was never shown. There was nothing about using your own life force in the Narutoverse to begin with. I simply pointed out I didn't accept it, simply sick of it. That's not arguing, that's simply making my point clear.

That's ridiculous. Not once did I ever claim to be making things up. The only time I claim to be doing like you was with the sarcasm. How you came up with such a conclusion, I don't even know. Either you know I'm right and are doing it on purpose, or you're skimming my replies...

Here is what you said :

You brought a situational example, and I countered with another showing differently. I haven't changed anything.

The first situational example was the one you claimed to be made up when you said "I'm using actual evidence, not trying to make things up". Seeing as you countered with another means your admitting you either used a made up evidence\example or simply lied about me making things up.

Considering I not once claimed that using an instant win technique was a feat, not sure how you can say I had said it before. And no, it was about Sasuke and the Kages, which you disagreed with.

You didn't say they weren't feats when you were using Hidan and Kisame as an example. And no, when we were talking about the people that defeated Bijuu, I asked whether you really believed those people could one shot Hiruzen. This was in no way related to Sasuke and the Kages.

[Uchiha_Blood]

xXan

Don't be mad, we are discussing a manga

@Uchiha_Blood

That post you quoted does NOT invalidate what me, ninjabot, Rikudou King and others belive.

It actually does, since your post is based on 2 things:

-Kyuubi is the same dimension than other Bijuus
-Naruto's Bijuu mode is the same as Kyuubi

Both aren't right, or rather the first is unconfirmed, and in the second you don't keep in mind that, in Bijuu mode, their chakra is melded, thus its not Kyuubi, but Naruto+Kyuubi.

Naruto2011's post, on the other hand, makes a direct comparison between the sealed Kyuubi and the actual Kyuubi.
Fact is Kyuubi didn't grew one bit after 16 years

Part 1... Hype, praise, baiting and making fun of him... You can't posibly take those words as serious... Words claiming that he knows ALL the jutsus in Konoha...
Hell Sarutobi aparently knew the DG seal and ET summons but he had NO idea that crep sealed with DG can't be summoned back in the word... Figure that...
You whant more? Nagato was GOD going for crep praise nonsense... He could not lose... Well gues what he was God and he could not lose only before meeting Naruto... If you whant to leave in the concept that Sarutobi could know every single jutsu in Konoha then be my gues... I gues he also could do Harem no jutsu if we are at this... Oh and the words used there to atribute Sarutobi's information of all the jutsus in Konoha was not to denote a fact, it was to denote a rumor that he would know them... You don't even a fact coming from Orochimaru's words.

As for the second part.. Show me people claiming that its posible to have more then 3 please. You do that then i do what you asked.. But i hope you are not going to ignore how Kakashi was refering to 3 elements in your link and then about afinities when its 4+ elements... Ignoring and trying to derail the conversation with nonsense (asking me to provide non existing facts) its so not... Logical... We where arguing the links provided by you, aparently you had nothing to add to it and so decided to change to "present links for bla bla bla"...

What Nagato being a God has to do with anything?
Orochimaru's claim wasn't disproven, neither it was a rumor since, again, Orochimaru wasn't a stranger, but was Hiruzen's prized disciple, as such he surely knew well his sensei. Would you argue that, say, Naruto doesn't know all there is to know about Kakashi? Or Shikamaru about Asuma?

As for part 2, Kakashi also thought Rikudou was a mith, that the Sharingan was derived from the Byakugan and so on
If, say, Madara, or Obito, or Hashirama would've said something like that I would agree with you, but Kakashi was disproven countless times. His knowledge is the average ninja knowledge, he also said, if I remember right, that FRS was impossible
And talking about hype and whatnot, Kakashi's comment was made to hype Kakuzu as well.

Point being, who is more believable, someone who knows all about Hiruzen, or someone who was proven to be wrong time and time again?

@marshall313

No actualy what Minato said contradicts what Jman stated. Its not yin/yang... Its half its chakra... Minato would have sealed more but it was physicaly imposible to do so. Its just CHAKRA.

Proof that Kyuubi's Yin is more prominent than its Yang?
Yondaime sealing the Yin half ( or Yang half, can't really remember ) implies he sealed half of the total being of the Kyuubi ( 50% Yin 50% yang ), as such Yondaime's claim didn't contradicts Jiraiya's.
Seeing as Orochimaru's hands couldn't be restored even after changing bodies, its pretty much confirmed that what is sealed inside the Shinigami is sealed forever, as Yondaime himself said, sealing half of Kyuubi's power forever, that is.
It would be pretty dumb to believe he meant "I will seal half of Kyuubi's chakra forever... But he'll just recover it in a month or two, which means basically I'm throwing away my life for nothing lulz!!!1!!"

I never mentioned him using the jutsu, I was talking about Hiruzen knowing or knowing about the jutsu. Why would Hiruzen not know about Hyuuga's kekkei genkai jutsu when even Kakashi knows it?

We don't know that. I doubt Minato didn't teach Kakashi rasengan, considering chidori was created to replace rasengan, and used before Kakashi ever got his Sharingan. I'm sure Hiruzen knows about chidori and raikiri, as well as rasengan as they're signature jutsu of famous shinobi.

In any case, Hiruzen in his prime probably wouldn't have been able to kill Orochimaru that invaded Konoha, or after the invasion. Even Four-Tailed Kyuubi failed to do that, and Sasuke would have lost if it weren't for genjutsu or plot. Orochimaru was almost unkillable, needing something like bijuu cannon (in his own words anyway) to fully kill him.

If you mean only knowing about the jutsu I agree, I meant knowing as in being able to use

And Orochimaru did say that, if Hiruzen was even 5-10 years younger, he would've been able to kill him, Shiki Fuuin is broken like that

As for Kakashi, he meant Hiraishin and not Rasengan, considering he said that Chidori was a jutsu meant to kill a lot of enemies in an instant, like Yondaime's nickname, which was "Yellow Flash"

[M3J]

I know he said that, but I still say I doubt it, based on what we know now. Orochimaru didn't know about Shiki Fuujin when he said Hiruzen could have killed him ten years ago, though he could have meant before he became White Snake Orochimaru and was pretty mortal. Shame consistency failed, since back in Part I it wasn't hard to believe or wouldn't have been hard to believe Hiruzen would have been stronger than Madara or Hashirama.

Kakashi told Naruto he created chidori because he couldn't combine his element with rasengan.

[chilibun]

Comparatively, it is, since by all we've seen, the Jounin rank is the next fewest after Kage. There are far more Genin and Chuunin then there are of Jounin. Before Konoha's forces was enhanced to being over a thousand, a Jounin meeting involved 20 ninjas. And not so sure about the amount of time. Ignoring Naruto because he's an idiot, learning one's nature didn't appear to take very long going by what we saw from Yahiko, who learnt his over the course of three years. And of course, there's geniuses like Sasuke who masters a nature in a couple of weeks. Don't see how it would be counterproductive, given the whole counterbalance issue and the elemental weakness cycle.

The Sharingan's ability to copy was admitted to require the right physical abilities, which natures would fall under. And we saw from both Kakashi and Sasuke how the copying can be used without literally copying a technique, not to mention that Kakashi admitted to only using three natures, which is strange if he could copy any of the five elemental techniques. Besides, the majority of Uchiha's didn't even possess the Sharingan, meaning even if it did give the ability to use more elements, they still wouldn't have that advantage.

Well considering how unimpressive jounins are at the moment, it isn't exactly much of an accomplishment. I'm not stating the training time frame as a fact. I'm saying that it generally doesn't make sense for a shinobi to sacrifice time and effort into training an off-affinity element because mastering your own affinity element into high level jutsus is already extremely difficult. Yahiko spent 3 years learning how to use 1 element at weak levels. And thats his affinity. He would theoretically have to spend at least another 3 years just to use another element at weak levels. And thats not even guaranteed. He could spend decades into training an off-affinity element and reach very little success. And thats the point. Mastering your affinity into higher rank levels is already extremely difficult that few can actually accomplish. So why waste time and effort into training in something you're not good at when success insn't guaranteed? Just take Lee for example. He is not good at ninjutsu. If he had spent all his time effort into training ninjutsu, he might be able to use a few, but he'll still suck at it and fail to be a succesful shinobi. On the otherhand, he spent that time and effort into mastering taijutsu and is incomparison much better off. That's why I'm saying its counter productive. You rather be good at one thing, than mediocre in everything considering its already difficult to be just good at one thing.

I don't remember Kakashi ever saying he could "only" use 3 elements. That is only what he has shown. It is never said or even implied that one cannot use an element he does not have an affinity to. The whole meaning of the word "affinity" is natural tendency or talent. Elemental affinities is exactly just that. What you are most talented in. Of course learning and using an off-affinity element is much more difficult hence why few can actually do so, but it is never said to be IMPOSSIBLE.

[Rikudou King]

The tree Minato and Kushina were on was on top of a cliff, which I'm sure would be bigger than the trees when Naruto fought Gaara. In the link, we see Kyuubi crouched, though. The toad and the snake didn't look that crouched or lower than they really are, while the Kyuubi's knees looked pretty bent.

We can see the top of the tree and bottom of the cliff, and there wasn't much distances between the two. And yeah, the Kyuubi was crouched, which is why I said it was bigger. But there's still a big difference between it being a little taller and it being massively huge as people are trying to argue.

That's a bad logic though. What if it was significantly bigger than the other bijuu at full power, and shrank to their size when it had half its chakra taken away? It makes no sense that sealing Kyuubi's chakra shrinks it, but having its chakra stolen and it attempting to use more chakra only results in it becoming emancipated.

Why would it shrink to their size with half it's power taken? Besides, the Hachibi dwarfs just the same. It makes sense when you factor in the fact that Minato dealt with a physical Kyuubi while Naruto dealt with a mental/spiritual one. Sasuke burst the Kyuubi into bubbles inside Naruto's mental world, but it's obvious that he wouldn't be capable of really doing that to the Kyuubi in the real world.

Bunta could have been heavy enough to hold it down.

But that would still require them to have a similar size, otherwise the Kyuubi's size would negate Gamabunta's weight.

I think Naruto beat the half-powered Kyuubi while Hiruzen and Konoha pushed backed the full powered Kyuubi.

The Toads were confident that Naruto was fighting the full power and in context it wouldn't make sense for Naruto not to fight the full Kyuubi, as there's no feat otherwise.

On Kyuubi's dimensions, the below post shows perfectly that Kyuubi still hasn't recovered the chakra Yondaime sealed away

Then the Kyuubi, who was about three times taller then Konoha's fence, would have to be as small as said fence now. Not to mention the comparison to giant summons given.

You see no difference in dimensions between the shrunken Kyuubi that pierced Kushina and Yondaime and the one that fist-bumped Naruto

There was also no difference between the size of the Kyuubi's head before it was sealed and after.

No trouble? To master a measly C rank jutsu Sasuke required a week of non-stop training, while, a few years later, he mastered Raiton, according to Kakashi, in a few days ( which is overly impressive ).
Its also confirmed Sasuke's affinity is Raiton

Yeah because said technique required a good deal of chakra to use, more then a Genin should have, and his "mastery" was literally huge. Not to mention we're talking about him seven years before that when he had just begun school. But for transforming his chakra into another nature, he succeed on his first try. Sasuke having an affinity for lightning doesn't negate him having a fire nature too, which is the underlying point.

If I remember correctly, minato, the one who sealed the kyubi to naruto stated that he sealed half of the kyubi's power. And then jiraiya confirmed that. So what's the point of debating on something that's already clear in the manga? It's already a fact that the kyubi right now has just half of his power. And even if naruto's seal is weakened because the kyubi is getting stronger, but it doesn't mean the kyubi already regained his half power.

It's just the kyubi's half power is getting stronger and stronger.

The debate is because the Dead Demon seal doesn't prevent the Kyuubi from creating more chakra to replace the lost half. Orochimaru had his arm chakra sealed, but he was still able to switch bodies to somewhat fix the problem and when he manifested himself as pure chakra, he still had his arms.

Besides the Toads state that Naruto's suppose to take control of the Kyuubi's full power and Minato only sealed half the Kyuubi's chakra because that was all he could handle.

That's not a fact at all, considering it seriously does look a lot smaller. When Kyuubi was freed from Kushina, both she and Tobi looked like tiny pricks and hard to see when Kishi was drawing Kyuubi standing. However, I don't think Gai or Kakashi looked that small when standing next to Hachibi or Kyuubi.

That's situational though. Aside from the questionable perspective, the Kyuubi was in an unnatural position, standing on it's hindlegs. I can stand my cat up on her hindlegs and make her taller then she normally is.

It doesn't change it. I'm not talking about Madara here so I don't care whether it changes anything or not.

It does change it. You're entire argument is that defeat is all that matters and we have Madara nearly being defeated using the same powers he had against Hashirama. Either only defeat matters or the conditions of the fight matter too.

Pretty sure he said they simply guessed that the Sharingan evolve into Rinnegan.

Of course they guessed that, which lead to the experiments. That's what a hypothesis is.

Taijutsu means body techniques, thus hand to hand combat. Weapon skills are Bukijutsu (Weapon techniques).

Into the bold part. The Rasengan is not Yin and Yang technique, it's simply chakra Manipulation. It was stated to be the highest possible level of chakra manipulation. You don't understand, pure chakra is not Yin and Yang. Yin-Yang in of it self is a chakra nature (just like the other five).

And again, where was that term used in the series. Just because that's what it's considered in real life doesn't mean it applies to the series. See, this is the exact thing you call others out for. Kimimaro's dances are all considered taijutsu apart from his final one, yet they all involve him using bone weapons to fight.

As shown, Yin-Yang is the basis for creating chakra in the first place. Yin-Yang is separate and not counted as the other releases, as we learnt from Kakashi.

Yes, but here, Obito says Yin and Yang. Had the frog meant the same thing, why couldn't he just say Yin and Yang ? Yin and Yang again, is a chakra element as it is, it can't be what the frog meant.

Cause the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story. It's really not, because Kakashi tells us there are only the five standard releases and the whole trick with the Rinnengan is it specifically allowing the user to use all five natures. If it was a regular element like the others, then there's no point in them not including it.

Orochimaru until the very end couldn't use them. Yep, everything you said is useless with this. And nice try in the bold part...

Nice try, but... Orochimaru was outright shown using his arms, which is cleaerly different from before when he could barely move his arms. Now unless you're gonna call what was shown in the actual manga useless, I'm right.

Here is your right translation. The toad something else, but you with your special ability to change proofs to suit your argument made it into a proof. The Kyuubi was simply restoring his chakra, the same way Naruto restores his sage mode chakra. And halving the Kyuubi's chakra was me putting it in a simple way for you to catch on. He lost half of it forever done.

Right translation? How so? What puts this translation over the one I gave? And I outright showed via Orochimaru, that things sealed by the Dead Demon seal aren't gone completely. The Dead Demon seal doesn't even work the way you're trying to claim. Since you're such a fan of having absolute proof, please show me where it was shown the Dead Demon seal can do something like change chakra capacity.

He used Yin-Yang to create them. He didn't say they will perish without any of the two. I create something with my hand, will it perish if I take my hand away from it ? He used his own Yin-Yang release jutsu called "Banbutsu Sōzō" to create them. And that's that. Stop changing what was said, seriously, in your case this is a talent.

Sure, if it's made from your hands. All the Bijuus are is the chakra he formed and gave life. They don't have any other material in their creation. I'm not changing what was said, I repeated exactly what was said about Yin and Yang release.

You should see in that link that Gamabunta as a whole is as big as the Kyuubi's head (Including the neck). As he used all of his body mass just to pin down the, otherwise they would've shown a panel including all of the Kyuubi's body not simply Gamabunta sitting on his head (while grabbing his arms). The Kyuubi isn't a flying head and arms you know. And don't show me the next page, I saw it, nothing to negate my argument.

Gamabunta's not on the Kyuubi's head, he's on the Kyuubi's back, behind his shoulders. And why shouldn't i show the next page, which shows thathe Kyuubi's head is about as big as Gamabunta's head. Not to mention I posted other links showing the Kyuubi wasn't much taller then a giant summon. The mere fact that you acknowledge you're gonna ignore the evidence says plenty.

You made an assumption after seeing it drained out of power, that's all. A direct statement of it using it's life force was never shown. There was nothing about using your own life force in the Narutoverse to begin with. I simply pointed out I didn't accept it, simply sick of it. That's not arguing, that's simply making my point clear.

It's not an assumption when I showed a similar example. And what do you mean the series hasn't talked about using life force? We've had that since Itachi's Susanoo, where we're informed that Susanoo is powered by the user's life force. And all I did was point out that despite your words, you're still doing it.

Here is what you said :


The first situational example was the one you claimed to be made up when you said "I'm using actual evidence, not trying to make things up". Seeing as you countered with another means your admitting you either used a made up evidence\example or simply lied about me making things up.

... Situational example: an example that applies in a limited situation. I called you out for attempting to get a skewed result for using that, and then went on to mentioned what you made up, like the Edo Hokages not standing still most of their battle.

You didn't say they weren't feats when you were using Hidan and Kisame as an example. And no, when we were talking about the people that defeated Bijuu, I asked whether you really believed those people could one shot Hiruzen. This was in no way related to Sasuke and the Kages.

Cause I didn't mention feats for them at all during the discussion. And it was, because it sprang from the feat of taking down a Bijuu along, which most of the Kages and Sasuke have done.

Well considering how unimpressive jounins are at the moment, it isn't exactly much of an accomplishment. I'm not stating the training time frame as a fact. I'm saying that it generally doesn't make sense for a shinobi to sacrifice time and effort into training an off-affinity element because mastering your own affinity element into high level jutsus is already extremely difficult. Yahiko spent 3 years learning how to use 1 element at weak levels. And thats his affinity. He would theoretically have to spend at least another 3 years just to use another element at weak levels. And thats not even guaranteed. He could spend decades into training an off-affinity element and reach very little success. And thats the point. Mastering your affinity into higher rank levels is already extremely difficult that few can actually accomplish. So why waste time and effort into training in something you're not good at when success insn't guaranteed? Just take Lee for example. He is not good at ninjutsu. If he had spent all his time effort into training ninjutsu, he might be able to use a few, but he'll still suck at it and fail to be a succesful shinobi. On the otherhand, he spent that time and effort into mastering taijutsu and is incomparison much better off. That's why I'm saying its counter productive. You rather be good at one thing, than mediocre in everything considering its already difficult to be just good at one thing.

I don't remember Kakashi ever saying he could "only" use 3 elements. That is only what he has shown. It is never said or even implied that one cannot use an element he does not have an affinity to. The whole meaning of the word "affinity" is natural tendency or talent. Elemental affinities is exactly just that. What you are most talented in. Of course learning and using an off-affinity element is much more difficult hence why few can actually do so, but it is never said to be IMPOSSIBLE.

When was it said that mastering one's element into higher levels is difficult, or learning any technique? Naruto's the only time I recall someone having real trouble learning a technique. Yahiko obviously gain more then a single technique from that three year training and a C-rank technique is pretty much standard. Both Kakashi and Jiraiya have made good use of them. So even only having a technique of that level would be useful. Anyway, Sakura average and she learnt several B/A rank techniques in three years while a genius like Sasuke created his own A/S rank techniques within that time. All of the Konoha 12 seems to have learnt several over the timeskip. Lee's a unique case, since his inability to mold chakra is the whole reason he doesn't use ninjutsu.

The whole deal with the Rinnegan is it giving the user the ability to use all five elements. Not much of a feat if any ninja is capable of them. And then there was the thing with Kakuzu, which one version had Kakashi shocked due to him using those different natures.

[chilibun]

When was it said that mastering one's element into higher levels is difficult, or learning any technique? Naruto's the only time I recall someone having real trouble learning a technique. Yahiko obviously gain more then a single technique from that three year training and a C-rank technique is pretty much standard. Both Kakashi and Jiraiya have made good use of them. So even only having a technique of that level would be useful. Anyway, Sakura average and she learnt several B/A rank techniques in three years while a genius like Sasuke created his own A/S rank techniques within that time. All of the Konoha 12 seems to have learnt several over the timeskip. Lee's a unique case, since his inability to mold chakra is the whole reason he doesn't use ninjutsu.

The whole deal with the Rinnegan is it giving the user the ability to use all five elements. Not much of a feat if any ninja is capable of them. And then there was the thing with Kakuzu, which one version had Kakashi shocked due to him using those different natures.

Well, I assumed mastering one's element into higher is difficult simply by the fact that few has ever achieved it. It never occurred to me that shinobis simply preferred to be weak... Kakashi and Jiraiya made use of C/B-rank jutsus, but they also have the talent to learn and use a number of high level techniques. Most shinobi's don't and can't achieve that. If you can only achieve a C-rank jutsu with your own affinity, chance are, you don't have the talent to achieve much if anything with off-affinity elements. Its simple opportunity cost. You have to make a sacrifice in time and effort for everything, so why would you not play to your talents especially considering most don't get too far.

People who are not kekkai users are generally born with one elemental affinity and that's what the chakra papers reveal. Now how are you suppose to know if you can use another element or not? You can't. You just train until you do learn it. Most jounins, who are supposed to be the most talented and exceptional shinobis, can only manage to learn a second element. Considering that, yes, the Rinnegan allowing you to easily learn all 5 elements is a damn incredible feat. Kakuzu only used 3 elements against Kakashi when he made that comment. Kakashi can use 3 himself, so what is there to be shocked about? Not that Kakuzu can use 3, but that he can use 3 at such a high level. He even mentions specifically mentions at "this level." The most talented shinobi's, the jounins, only manage to learn 2 and most don't even reach that level of high elemental manipulation. Kakuzu using 3 elements at such a level would make him like the most talented mf in the world. That's why Kakashi is shocked.

[M3J]

We can see the top of the tree and bottom of the cliff, and there wasn't much distances between the two. And yeah, the Kyuubi was crouched, which is why I said it was bigger. But there's still a big difference between it being a little taller and it being massively huge as people are trying to argue.

I thought there was quite a difference. But it does look pretty big crouched, so when it stretches fully, it'll look quite huge. Even crouched, it looked pretty big compared to a lot of big summons or bijuu.

Why would it shrink to their size with half it's power taken? Besides, the Hachibi dwarfs just the same. It makes sense when you factor in the fact that Minato dealt with a physical Kyuubi while Naruto dealt with a mental/spiritual one. Sasuke burst the Kyuubi into bubbles inside Naruto's mental world, but it's obvious that he wouldn't be capable of really doing that to the Kyuubi in the real world.

Half of its chakra sealed away could cause it to shrink down to half its size. It wouldn't necessarily shrink down to their size, but in half, which could be close to the bijuu's size. What about when Naruto goes bijuu mode? That's a pretty close depiction of post-Shiki Fuuijin Kyuubi.

But that would still require them to have a similar size, otherwise the Kyuubi's size would negate Gamabunta's weight.

The Toads were confident that Naruto was fighting the full power and in context it wouldn't make sense for Naruto not to fight the full Kyuubi, as there's no feat otherwise.

Then the Kyuubi, who was about three times taller then Konoha's fence, would have to be as small as said fence now. Not to mention the comparison to giant summons given.

Not necessary if Bunta is just that heavy. I'm not saying it's that small, but it's not big enough to completely hold down the Kyuubi.

How so? It could have been 10x taller than Konoha's gate, but now it's 5x taller thanks to half of its chakra being sealed.

[Hakuteiken]

The whole deal with the Rinnegan is it giving the user the ability to use all five elements. Not much of a feat if any ninja is capable of them. And then there was the thing with Kakuzu, which one version had Kakashi shocked due to him using those different natures.

It would still be a feat, actually. Nagato didn't use the techniques of other elements merely. He was using them to the utmost efficiency at ten, which would be ridiculous for any other, let them be geniuses or what.
Though, in a way, I don't believe all elemental ninjutsu can be mastered through normal means, either.

[Rikudou King]

Well, I assumed mastering one's element into higher is difficult simply by the fact that few has ever achieved it. It never occurred to me that shinobis simply preferred to be weak... Kakashi and Jiraiya made use of C/B-rank jutsus, but they also have the talent to learn and use a number of high level techniques. Most shinobi's don't and can't achieve that. If you can only achieve a C-rank jutsu with your own affinity, chance are, you don't have the talent to achieve much if anything with off-affinity elements. Its simple opportunity cost. You have to make a sacrifice in time and effort for everything, so why would you not play to your talents especially considering most don't get too far.

Lack of high level technique shouldn't imply lack of mastery. Weak? C-rank and B-rank techniques are considered Chuunin and Jounin level techniques, while A-rank are Jounin and forbidden along with S-rank. The C/B are basically the bread and butter of ninjutsu. Most of the techniques Sarutobi used were B-rank with only a single A-rank. Aside from the Rasengan variations, Jiraiya's techniques were B-rank and below, and same for Kakashi apart from his own Chidori/Raikiri creation. Kakuzu was praised for using high level techniques, despite all his techniques being B-rank. Not to mention there's also the issue of chakra. For example, the Great Fireball technique is just C-rank, but requires more chakra then the standard Genin would be capable of using. And summoning, a B-rank technique, requires a huge amount of chakra to really make use of. Seeing as most ninjas don't make it to Jounin rank, how could they be expected to wield the same sort of techniques that the most powerful ninjas do, especially when said level of techniques are rare?

People who are not kekkai users are generally born with one elemental affinity and that's what the chakra papers reveal. Now how are you suppose to know if you can use another element or not? You can't. You just train until you do learn it. Most jounins, who are supposed to be the most talented and exceptional shinobis, can only manage to learn a second element. Considering that, yes, the Rinnegan allowing you to easily learn all 5 elements is a damn incredible feat. Kakuzu only used 3 elements against Kakashi when he made that comment. Kakashi can use 3 himself, so what is there to be shocked about? Not that Kakuzu can use 3, but that he can use 3 at such a high level. He even mentions specifically mentions at "this level." The most talented shinobi's, the jounins, only manage to learn 2 and most don't even reach that level of high elemental manipulation. Kakuzu using 3 elements at such a level would make him like the most talented mf in the world. That's why Kakashi is shocked.

We don't know how that test would react to someone with other natures. But more then likely, it would involved using training and handsigns, which control that sort of thing. Nothing was said about the Rinnegan being special because one could learn the elements "easier", simply the ability to preform all five nature transformations. And as mentioned, another translation has Kakashi mentioning the usage of multiple natures being the surprise.

I thought there was quite a difference. But it does look pretty big crouched, so when it stretches fully, it'll look quite huge. Even crouched, it looked pretty big compared to a lot of big summons or bijuu.

Crouched, it's about twice as big as the gate and sitting up about three times. The toads and snakes are twice as big as Konoha's gate, the Hachibi was enormous compared to Team Taka and the Ichibi towered over Suna likewise.

Half of its chakra sealed away could cause it to shrink down to half its size. It wouldn't necessarily shrink down to their size, but in half, which could be close to the bijuu's size. What about when Naruto goes bijuu mode? That's a pretty close depiction of post-Shiki Fuuijin Kyuubi.

Doesn't fit though, because as shown, even the other Bijuus towered over villages and made people look like tiny. Half the Kyuubi would have to be smaller then the other Bijuus, yet as far as we've seen, it's still of similar size.

Not necessary if Bunta is just that heavy. I'm not saying it's that small, but it's not big enough to completely hold down the Kyuubi.

How so? It could have been 10x taller than Konoha's gate, but now it's 5x taller thanks to half of its chakra being sealed.

Gamabunta would have to weight a whole, whole lot more to keep the Kyuubi down without being of similar size, and considering how we've seen him and the other toads freely jump around, that's unlikely. And it did pretty much hold the Kyuubi down. Plus, Gamabunta was able to wrap his hand around the Kyuubi's arm, so unless the Kyuubi's arm is really skinny...

But it's not 10x, it's 3x sitting up. We see that whenever it's shown in relation to the village.

It would still be a feat, actually. Nagato didn't use the techniques of other elements merely. He was using them to the utmost efficiency at ten, which would be ridiculous for any other, let them be geniuses or what.
Though, in a way, I don't believe all elemental ninjutsu can be mastered through normal means, either.

Don't recall Nagato being mentioned as using the elements at ten, only all of Jiraiya's techniques.

[Hakuteiken]

Don't recall Nagato being mentioned as using the elements at ten, only all of Jiraiya's techniques.

That is true, but Jiraiya also said he mastered all the essential ones and also talked about proficiency here.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v41/c375/11.html

On the other hand, he also pointed out that no person can have all 5 different elemental chakra. All that makes me to think Nagato showcased jutsu of all sorts, from each single element to lead Jiraiya into such conclusion.

[chilibun]

@Rikudou King,

The difficulty and power of a jutsu generally increases as the ranking increases. It would be a pointless system if a C-rank jutsu required less skill and has more power than an A-rank jutsu. So does a lack of high level technique imply a lack of mastery? Not exactly, but they do share a correlation because a certain level of mastery is required as the level of technique increases. What does Jiraiya and Sarutobi using mostly B-rank jutsus have to do with anything? Just because you have a higher ranked jutsu doesn't mean you spam that jutsu for every situation. Only Naruto does that. B-ranked jutsus are also relatively high ranking. I don't recall that many jounins showcasing anything higher. The rest of that first paragraph is irrelevant. Shinobi's more or less develop their own skills after the academy. Its not like they reach jounin and then a jounin master comes and teaches them jounin techniques.

We know exactly how those chakra papers react. Anything beyond what Kakashi explained is your own speculations. It reacts to the user's chakra and burns, cuts, etc. depending on the elemental affinity. The rinnegan giving the user all 6 the elemental affinities directly allows him to learn elemental ninjutsus easier. That's is the benefit of affinities. And like I said, Kakashi was shocked after seeing THREE elemental ninjustus. What is so unbelievable about that when he himself can use three. It is the fact that Kakuzu can use all 3 at such high levels, and yes, B-rank is relatively high. Your linked translation says "a jutsu of THIS HIGH CALIBER needs to be matched to their chakra." This is completely consistent with what I have been saying. Learning an off-affinity element jutsu is already difficult and jounins only manage to use 2 total. Using 3 at high rank levels would make Kakuzu like the Sarutobi "the Professor" Hiruzen level, which is unbelievably rare.

[Rikudou King]

That is true, but Jiraiya also said he mastered all the essential ones and also talked about proficiency here.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v41/c375/11.html

On the other hand, he also pointed out that no person can have all 5 different elemental chakra. All that makes me to think Nagato showcased jutsu of all sorts, from each single element to lead Jiraiya into such conclusion.

I took essential techniques as the basic ones every ninja learns, but I suppose it could have wider meaning. And Jiraiya was aware of the legend of the Rinnegan beforehand, so that could also have been what he was basing things on.

The difficulty and power of a jutsu generally increases as the ranking increases. It would be a pointless system if a C-rank jutsu required less skill and has more power than an A-rank jutsu. So does a lack of high level technique imply a lack of mastery? Not exactly, but they do share a correlation because a certain level of mastery is required as the level of technique increases. What does Jiraiya and Sarutobi using mostly B-rank jutsus have to do with anything? Just because you have a higher ranked jutsu doesn't mean you spam that jutsu for every situation. Only Naruto does that. B-ranked jutsus are also relatively high ranking. I don't recall that many jounins showcasing anything higher. The rest of that first paragraph is irrelevant. Shinobi's more or less develop their own skills after the academy. Its not like they reach jounin and then a jounin master comes and teaches them jounin techniques.

I'm not denying that power increase with the ranking, I'm simply pointing out that the lack of a high ranking technique doesn't mean one is weak. We've seen just as many powerful ninjas employ said techniques as the regular ninjas do. A-rank and S-rank techniques are basically aces in the hole, most of which were the person's personal creation and pretty much the sole technique of that level they have. Very few ninjas have shown having more then one or two.

We know exactly how those chakra papers react. Anything beyond what Kakashi explained is your own speculations. It reacts to the user's chakra and burns, cuts, etc. depending on the elemental affinity. The rinnegan giving the user all 6 the elemental affinities directly allows him to learn elemental ninjutsus easier. That's is the benefit of affinities. And like I said, Kakashi was shocked after seeing THREE elemental ninjustus. What is so unbelievable about that when he himself can use three. It is the fact that Kakuzu can use all 3 at such high levels, and yes, B-rank is relatively high. Your linked translation says "a jutsu of THIS HIGH CALIBER needs to be matched to their chakra." This is completely consistent with what I have been saying. Learning an off-affinity element jutsu is already difficult and jounins only manage to use 2 total. Using 3 at high rank levels would make Kakuzu like the Sarutobi "the Professor" Hiruzen level, which is unbelievably rare.

I know we know how the paper reacts to single cases, but we don't know what would happen for a person with more natures, like someone with a bloodline limit. Anyway, Hakuteiken pointed out that Jiraiya states that using all the natures was impossible for a single ninja. And the point was that as established, C-rank and B-rank are most ninjas bread and butter. There's no reason most ninjas couldn't have multiple elemental techniques of around C-rank, especially when we haven't really seen learning techniques of those rank be difficult for even an average ninja, much less a skilled one. Having two or three elements shouldn't be rare enough to generate surprise when facing a powerful ninja.

[chilibun]

@Rikudou King,

What? Lacking a high ranking technique certainly does make you weak, or at least weaker in comparison than if you could employ one. If Kakashi made a Kagebunshin and fought himself with one limited to just using C-rank jutus, I'd guarantee you the one who could use higher level jutsus would win all the time. Yes, we have seen powerful ninjas employ lower ranked jutsus, but they wouldn't be nearly as powerful without their high ranked abilities. Seriously, what does this argument even have to do with anything regarding the ability of one to use any elemental jutsu?

We don't know how the paper would react to somebody with a kekkai, but those are anomalies. The general shinobi only has one affinity. Kakashi displayed 3 different elemental jutsus, but his paper only crimpled displaying his Raiton affinity. It didn't do some crazy 3-affinity nulclear explosion. Jiraiya also stated no such thing in Hakuteiken's post. Mastering your own affinity into high ranks is already difficult as most don't even get that far. Even the exceptional ones, the jounins, mostly only manage to learn to use one more element beyond their own affinity. Its difficulty in using off-affinity jutsus directly explains why most ninjas don't use mulitple elemental jutsus and why using 5 elements is like impossible. Kakashi was NOT surprised by Kakuzu using 3 elements. He has no reason to as he could use 3 himself. I've been saying that since the beginning! The manga specifically states its the use of the 3 elements at SUCH A HIGH LEVEL that makes it impossible. That "impossible" remark is also just a hyperbole because of the difficulty and unlikelihood of one being able to do so. Even Sarutobi Hiruzen couldn't (or at least didn't) display that type of versatility. And he was known as the Professor. It also makes his "supposed" claim to know all of Konohas jutsu even more retarded.

It is never stated anywhere that elemental affinity is required to learn a jutsu. I'm done with this argument. I've said everything that needs to said, and I don't want to keep arguing in circles.