The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[Hakuteiken]

Jiraiya says no single person can have all 5 different elemental chakra.
Anyway, it is never stated as such, but it still leaves the things as a question mark for me. I would focus on learning C-level ninjutsu from each element and keep my versatility level as high as possible, if I can really do that. Instead, every village focuses on its own forte element, and specializes on that to keep up with the balance. If it wasn't for that, ninja world wouldn't survive those three wars and most of the countries would be annihilated by one other. And I have all the reason to believe you need a specialty to use a jutsu, so that it becomes the enforcer of a struggling peace. But that is merely a speculation from my side.

On another note, I don't really get what you mean by the level of techniques. I checked out wiki for the jutsu classification and the jutsu Kakashi used are not inferior to those Kakuzu used in terms of rank, so, it's not like Kakuzu has been using unbelievably tough techniques to surprise Kakashi.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I know he said that, but I still say I doubt it, based on what we know now. Orochimaru didn't know about Shiki Fuujin when he said Hiruzen could have killed him ten years ago, though he could have meant before he became White Snake Orochimaru and was pretty mortal. Shame consistency failed, since back in Part I it wasn't hard to believe or wouldn't have been hard to believe Hiruzen would have been stronger than Madara or Hashirama.

Kakashi told Naruto he created chidori because he couldn't combine his element with rasengan.

That was to hype Hiruzen, even though I remember Oro thinking that while Hiruzen was using Shiki Fuuin to seal his hands.

As for Chidori, are you sure?
I remember saying Kakashi couldn't manage to combine Rasengan and his own element, not that he created Chidori because he couldn't use an elemental Rasengan, expecially considering how Rasengan isn't part of his arsenal

Yeah because said technique required a good deal of chakra to use, more then a Genin should have, and his "mastery" was literally huge. Not to mention we're talking about him seven years before that when he had just begun school. But for transforming his chakra into another nature, he succeed on his first try. Sasuke having an affinity for lightning doesn't negate him having a fire nature too, which is the underlying point.

As chilibun said, if Sasuke or any other ninjas had more than one affinities it would simply show on paper.
Instead, even with someone like Kakashi, it simply shows its primary affinity. Why? Because, from what we gathered, ninjas have only one affinity, and can train for others. Considering that it takes year for the average ninja to master even his primary affinity, you can see why even the best can get to 2-3.
Hell Itachi freaking Uchiha is limited to 2, this tells you how difficult is to learn and implement other elements in one's arsenal, considering also its not like a ninja can train for his element and for nothing else.

Sasuke didn't learn element transformation when Fugaku teached him Gokyakuu, his father said "use those hand-seals to morph chakra and see what happens" basically, he didn't go at lengths to explain Fire's properties like, for example, Asuma and Kakashi did for Naruto.
And its not a case that Sasuke excels at Raitons while he's only ( ) above average with normal Katons, just like Kakashi's only S rank jutsu is a Raiton one, while his best with Suitons and Dotons is a B rank

Jiraiya says no single person can have all 5 different elemental chakra.
Anyway, it is never stated as such, but it still leaves the things as a question mark for me. I would focus on learning C-level ninjutsu from each element and keep my versatility level as high as possible, if I can really do that. Instead, every village focuses on its own forte element, and specializes on that to keep up with the balance. If it wasn't for that, ninja world wouldn't survive those three wars and most of the countries would be annihilated by one other. And I have all the reason to believe you need a specialty to use a jutsu, so that it becomes the enforcer of a struggling peace. But that is merely a speculation from my side.

On another note, I don't really get what you mean by the level of techniques. I checked out wiki for the jutsu classification and the jutsu Kakashi used are not inferior to those Kakuzu used in terms of rank, so, it's not like Kakuzu has been using unbelievably tough techniques to surprise Kakashi.

Elemental manipulation isn't easy, one would have the same results as Sasuke did if he tried an elemental ninjutsu from nowhere imo

Kakuzu overpowered Kakashi's S rank jutsu with his B rank, that's what Kakashi was talking about.
The whole point is, if Guy A and Guy B used the same elemental jutsu with only Guy A having an affinity, I'm sure Guy A would win the confrontation, despite Guy B knowing and using the same jutsu.
One needs an affinity to properly exploit the full strenght of the element, if one had natural second affinities why the hell Yamato and Kakashi didn't use KB training to find Naruto's secondary affinity and create another elemental Rasengan?

[KingOfNight]

Rikudou King

It does change it. You're entire argument is that defeat is all that matters and we have Madara nearly being defeated using the same powers he had against Hashirama. Either only defeat matters or the conditions of the fight matter too.

No, it doesn't. Was Madara defeated ? No. Don't give me crap about him being "almost" defeated. And I don't even care, Madara acknowledged him as a superior to the five Kages. It's done. I win !

Of course they guessed that, which lead to the experiments. That's what a hypothesis is.

And you changed that slightly to make it "they seek the Rinnegan, it's their goal in life".

And again, where was that term used in the series. Just because that's what it's considered in real life doesn't mean it applies to the series. See, this is the exact thing you call others out for. Kimimaro's dances are all considered taijutsu apart from his final one, yet they all involve him using bone weapons to fight.

I call others for what ? It's confirmed to not be Taijutsu, and it's not Ninjutsu. These terms are all used in real life, same as the Bunshin no Jutsu and Katon no Jutsu, and many more things. If you don't want to take the term, that doesn't matter. Using weapons is not Taijutsu. Kimimaro was not using ninja tools, he was using his body.

As shown, Yin-Yang is the basis for creating chakra in the first place. Yin-Yang is separate and not counted as the other releases, as we learnt from Kakashi.

In the link I gave you is someone using Yin separately from Yang

Cause the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story. It's really not, because Kakashi tells us there are only the five standard releases and the whole trick with the Rinnengan is it specifically allowing the user to use all five natures. If it was a regular element like the others, then there's no point in them not including it.

You're assuming the bold part.
And here Jiraya state six elements. Done.

Nice try, but... Orochimaru was outright shown using his arms, which is cleaerly different from before when he could barely move his arms. Now unless you're gonna call what was shown in the actual manga useless, I'm right.

Perhaps his arm where slightly different, Or because it's a summoning jutsu. We have yet to see him forming hand seals. But, you're refusing a direct statement. He said directly "He can't use his arms". It's over man, what was shown can go to hell for all I care. He was openly stated to not be able to use his arms. Done. I'm not gonna bother taking you seriously, you can cry all you want...but I'm not taking you seriously.

Right translation? How so? What puts this translation over the one I gave? And I outright showed via Orochimaru, that things sealed by the Dead Demon seal aren't gone completely. The Dead Demon seal doesn't even work the way you're trying to claim. Since you're such a fan of having absolute proof, please show me where it was shown the Dead Demon seal can do something like change chakra capacity.

Because this
The translation you gave is full of garbage. That aside, you proved nothing, what Orochimaru did is a mystery. It never showed he can use hand seals or normal jutsus (not the summoning ones), it's unclear. But you know what's clear ? A freaking direct statement.

Again, sealing his chakra capacity was me putting it in a simple way for you to understand, not once did I say it was stated in the manga. However, sense you also like absolute proofs, go to the other four links. I win.

Sure, if it's made from your hands. All the Bijuus are is the chakra he formed and gave life. They don't have any other material in their creation. I'm not changing what was said, I repeated exactly what was said about Yin and Yang release.

Strange, my dinner didn't perish, even though I made it using my hands. Yes, you're changing what was said. He created them using Yin-Yang release. Are you to provide me with a link saying they will disappear without one of the two ?

Gamabunta's not on the Kyuubi's head, he's on the Kyuubi's back, behind his shoulders. And why shouldn't i show the next page, which shows thathe Kyuubi's head is about as big as Gamabunta's head. Not to mention I posted other links showing the Kyuubi wasn't much taller then a giant summon. The mere fact that you acknowledge you're gonna ignore the evidence says plenty.

You can see all of his body used to pin down the head. All of it, his right arm grabbing one hand while his left arm grabbing his ear. He is sitting on what appears to be his neck (nothing about his back is shown, and will never be shown seeing as the Kyuubi is laying on his side not his chest, there is no physical way he could sit on his back in that position). And if we assume he was on his shoulder, how would Gamabunta as a whole being as big as his upper body, help you ? Why I told you not to show the next page ? Because you see in the one before it, the Kyuubi's head is on the ground while Gama's head is above it since he is standing on him. From that angle, his head appears to be bigger sense it's closer. I didn't want you to show it, to avoid explaining common sense. If it says anything, it's how desperate you are.

It's not an assumption when I showed a similar example. And what do you mean the series hasn't talked about using life force? We've had that since Itachi's Susanoo, where we're informed that Susanoo is powered by the user's life force. And all I did was point out that despite your words, you're still doing it.

Was the "similar example said to have used his life force ? Show me where Itachi's Susanno was using his life force. Since an argument has ended, you could simply ignore it, but you must keep on replying.

... Situational example: an example that applies in a limited situation. I called you out for attempting to get a skewed result for using that, and then went on to mentioned what you made up, like the Edo Hokages not standing still most of their battle.

I didn't make that up, seeing as that's how the battle was written. Compare to the things you make up with every new reply, that pales.

By the way I ignored the last reply, I see no point in it.

[M3J]

That was to hype Hiruzen, even though I remember Oro thinking that while Hiruzen was using Shiki Fuuin to seal his hands.

As for Chidori, are you sure?
I remember saying Kakashi couldn't manage to combine Rasengan and his own element, not that he created Chidori because he couldn't use an elemental Rasengan, expecially considering how Rasengan isn't part of his arsenal

I thought he said that before the Shiki Fuujin. But I doubt Orochimaru would just say that. If anything, the ANBU could have said that just to hype up Hiruzen. Why would Orochimaru admit someone being superior back then?

That's what I meant. <_< Anyway, dunno why Kakashi doesn't use it as part of his arsenal, but we know he can use it. Maybe Hiruzen can use it too, but chooses not to.

[xXan]

@M3J

Wait, when was it shown that the fully grown Kyuubi was the same size as other bijuu? The only time we see them together is during the war, after Kyuubi had half its chakra sealed in Minato. The Kyuubi that attacked Konoha seemed much larger than the Ichibi that came out of Gaara.

We know:

1-The young Kyuubi has the same size as ALL the other bijus.
2-All the other biju's after growing up kept the same size (the diference in size between them) the same.
3- Nobody stated "hey Kurama how come you are at half size".... Not even 1 of the bijus...

So we have 8 other biju's who did NOT change as growing up then you belive Kurama did? Makes no sense. So what i am telling you is that for this to be invalidated we need them 1 next to the other when older and showing Kurama 2x the size and not the other way around...
Kurama was NEVER stated to be more powerfull because of its SIZE but because it has more tails. Even Kurama belived to be the stronger of them all because it had MORE TAILS... 8 tails even contradicted Kurama's belive in this area...

How is it "wtf" moment? THat's like me telling you I took away few apples, showing you a basket of apples, and asking you to guess how many there were originally and how many I took away. You can't guess because you don't know how many apples there were originally or how many were taken away. Same applies with the Kyuubi - you don't know how tall it was in comparison to the other bijuu before it had its chakra sealed. Hell, for all we know the bijuu's true size is 2x bigger than what we've seen when the jinchuuriki transformed. I think the turtle is the only bijuu we've seen free, and it was nowhere as big as the Kyuubi, if I recall. If you're confused as to what bijuu I'm talking about, it's the one that Deidara and Tobi got with Deidara's bakuton.

Diference is that compared to your example we do know how "many apples" we had originaly. We have Kurama next to its brothers as young bijus... Then we have the other 8 "apples" all growing up and keeping the size diference.
The tortoise could be viewed from a wrong angle. They where all showed in that special dimension they all share 1 next to the other and they where same size(well the ones that where actualy in there).

That's not a fact at all, considering it seriously does look a lot smaller. When Kyuubi was freed from Kushina, both she and Tobi looked like tiny pricks and hard to see when Kishi was drawing Kyuubi standing. However, I don't think Gai or Kakashi looked that small when standing next to Hachibi or Kyuubi.

First off that hand that was left in the dirt (paw print) from when it whent smaller is not even well made. Going from the size diference it whent smaller by a greater degree then 50%...
Let me show you something. 100% Kurama:

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/503/10

Head size comparison between Gamabunta and Kurama.... Now compare Gamabunta with Minato. Minato is the size of Gama's eye... So that means Minato is about the same size of Kurama's eye. Actualy Minato is a littel bigger then the eyes (Gamabunta's and Kurama's). Now Naruto in his mind world had the SAME SIZE compared to Kurama's EYE.
Kurama is not even way bigger then Gamabunta man... How the hell can it be 2x the size of OTHER BIJUS???!?!?!?!?!? Kurama is not 2x the size of Bunta lol.... Yes Kurama would be taller is it stand on its legs but that is because its a fox, it has longer legs.

Proof? You only posted manga panels having it same size AFTER it had half its chakra sealed. I'm ignoring nothing, I even pointed out why I"m not using that as a fact or basis for Kyuubi having its whole chakra back. All we have to go by are comparisons. Kyuubi easily towered over the trees on four legs while Ichibi and Bunta were few meters taller than the trees.

No you have panels of it at the same size when they where little. Now stop comparin bloody trees. .. It can be influence by tree age, tree type. terain and a few other factors.
When Kurama was showed next to Konoha's buildings it was bigger then a giant snake or a giant toad but not BY MUCH. Kurama is not even bigger then Bunta by a hight degree.

Of course it's mind boggling to you. But how does Minato saying he sealed half of Kyuubi's chakra contradict what Jiraiya said? Minato never said he didn't seal ying or yang, or could have done so and meant half of its chakra.

He said he sealed 50% because he could not do more. If he wanted to seal just Yang/Ying part of chakra he would not be dealing in how much i can seal. He would state i sealed 40% because that is the part of chakra that was yin or yang or whatever. The yang or ying chakra would have a predefined percentage out of the hole. If Minato just sealed as much as he could then it becomes imposible for him to have sealed just the part that he wanted.

We don't know that it can be killed but regenerate. We take it as fact only because it was said so, but we haven't seen it in action, have we?

So you are telling me Raikage, Tsunade, Minato and Kushina had NO BLOODY IDEA about what they where talking about and you need on screen panels with this actualy happening? All the above people stating this is enough evidence...

If killed it pops back in time. You can just delay it. Why do you thing RS sealed the Juubi in the moon and split the chakra? Because the Juubi would come back in time after he died... Oh and you do have this happening somewhat curently with the Juubi.

I did look at other factors, and I did show links and comparison about its size. Once again, why would Minato seal half of its chakra in himself when it'd just recover its chakra in few years?

Well obviously i can give you posibilities. The most logical one was because Naruto as a baby could not handle that much power.
Minato wanted to keep the biju balance. If that was possible by just sealing Kurama in Naruto.... Why the hell did he kill himself?

Also we don't know how long it would take BUT we can asume he wanted Naruto to start with a less powerfull biju so he can handle the chakra and as he grew up he could adapt to this chakra little by little.
Its like taking poison over time to increase your tolerance to it.

I doubt the trees that Naruto and Killerbee fought the jinchuuriki in or the trees in Naruto vs. Gaara are taller than the tree on top of the cliff that Minato and Kushina were on, which Kyuubi easily towered over.

And like I said, Kyuubi was crouching pretty low, at least compared to the frog and snakes.

Kurama has long lags because its a fox. The snake and Bunta have low legs(well snakes don't). Now if a snake would strech out it would be taller then Kurama lol. Thing is compare the heads, eyes and so on.
Take that monkey biju, it woudl have larger paw then Kurama as it is a monkey. Wolfes have smaller paws.

In the end not even here:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_NQnB2HzN0..._Hashirama.png
And Kurama does not look like having 2x the size of other bijus...

@Uchiha_Blood

Don't be mad, we are discussing a manga

Mad? I am not mad. I just pointed out we have no reason to keep posting the same thing.

It actually does, since your post is based on 2 things:

-Kyuubi is the same dimension than other Bijuus
-Naruto's Bijuu mode is the same as Kyuubi

You can add to this the fact that Kurama in Naruto's mind is the same size as the other bijus. Well perhaps it would fall into your nr.1 but still.

Both aren't right, or rather the first is unconfirmed, and in the second you don't keep in mind that, in Bijuu mode, their chakra is melded, thus its not Kyuubi, but Naruto+Kyuubi.

For the first thing we have Kurama and the rest the same size as kids. The other 8 biju's kept the same diference as growing up. Kurama somehow ending up 2x the size of other bijus when its not even 2x the size of Bunta (look when Minato summoned bunta on Kurama and compare there heads).... Well it would make no sense.... Now bunta is 2x the size of other bijus to (well close to as Kurama is a little bigger).

Now you also have the same size when comparing Naruto and Kurama in his head. Naruto is about the size of Kurama's eye like the other bijus are. Kurama's paw also has the same size as the other biju's paws (ignoring the diference created by the diference in animals).

Now i don't belive Naruto's own chakra is used to create the chakra Kurama considering he does not end up tired when it ends. Now Bee stated that when Naruto is using Kurama's chakra he is using that and not his own. How much is minglend with Kurama i have no idea... Thing is you can be most sure that Naruto is not providing 50% of Kurama's chakra to give it 50% more hight.. Its just not possible. Hell Bee is doing the same thing so if Kurama would be bigger would Bee's form be also bigger? Its a diferent type of transformation true but Bee is also dumping chakra there.

Naruto2011's post, on the other hand, makes a direct comparison between the sealed Kyuubi and the actual Kyuubi.
Fact is Kyuubi didn't grew one bit after 16 years

Hmmz? Someone it has now the same size as ALL the other bijus and it somehow had the same size as the other bijus when Kurama was little... Hell you can explain to me how Bunta is also 2x the size of other biju's if we go this route. Well close to 2x ... Its actualy more like 1,5 for bunta. Ignoring feature that would make Kurama bigger as it is a fox and has longer legs. Bunta and Kurama have close to the same size in there heads. Kurama has longer legs and a longer torso as its a fox. Now if Kurama was 2x the size of other bijus it should have a head some 3 times as bigger as Bunta and for some reason it did not...

What Nagato being a God has to do with anything?
Orochimaru's claim wasn't disproven, neither it was a rumor since, again, Orochimaru wasn't a stranger, but was Hiruzen's prized disciple, as such he surely knew well his sensei. Would you argue that, say, Naruto doesn't know all there is to know about Kakashi? Or Shikamaru about Asuma?

First off Orochimaru stated that Sarutobi was said to be... Like it was rumored. Anyway if we belive Orochimaru's claim why should we not belive Nagato's claim that he was God? Well he retracted his claim when he died stating that perhaps this is the will of the true God but why should we belive Oro just because we never had the oportunity to be proven wrong?

Emm you think Naruto knows all of Kakashi's jutsus? All the tactics Kakashi can create and so on? All of Kakashi backstory? He did not even know about Obito... Yes i do belive Naruto does not know a TON about Kakashi and i do belive Orochimaru did not know a lot of things about his sensei... For instance he did not know about the DG seal... He did now know how much Sarutobi slowed down in his old age and so on...

As for part 2, Kakashi also thought Rikudou was a mith, that the Sharingan was derived from the Byakugan and so on
If, say, Madara, or Obito, or Hashirama would've said something like that I would agree with you, but Kakashi was disproven countless times. His knowledge is the average ninja knowledge, he also said, if I remember right, that FRS was impossible
And talking about hype and whatnot, Kakashi's comment was made to hype Kakuzu as well.

Point being, who is more believable, someone who knows all about Hiruzen, or someone who was proven to be wrong time and time again?

So let me gues this streigh you first use a link of what Kakashi stated to back up your claim that what is impresive is the mastery behind the number of afinities but when i use Kakashi to show you it was about AFINITIES then it becomes a bad source of information?

Now Orochimaru stated that its rumor and the fact that Sarutobi knows them. He did not state perform them. Also Orochimaru does not knows all about Sarutobi. I can prove you wrong there and easy. He did not know a lot of things about Sarutobi... DG seal, power level now that he is old, other information that Sarutobi would have learned (jutsus and other stuff) AFTER Oro left the village.... Also even when in the village i am sure Orochimaru did not know all the techs Sarutobi knew. Considering the number of them i don't see how he could. Ask Naruto and Sakura if they know all the jutsus Kakashi has and i am sure they would have no idea. Sure they know a bunch of them but to know them all? No way. Kakashi did not even tell them about Kamui to the point he used it. Obito aparently did not know about Minato's ST level 2 but that is probably because Minato developed it after Obito was "dead", thing is this would also apply to Sarutobi and how he could learn a lot of stuff or forget after Oro left the village. Heh Oro even addressed what other people where calling Sarutobi, the profesor as people belived he knew all the jutsus in Konoha.

[Hakuteiken]

I thought he said that before the Shiki Fuujin. But I doubt Orochimaru would just say that. If anything, the ANBU could have said that just to hype up Hiruzen. Why would Orochimaru admit someone being superior back then?

That's what I meant. <_< Anyway, dunno why Kakashi doesn't use it as part of his arsenal, but we know he can use it. Maybe Hiruzen can use it too, but chooses not to.

I think he was referring to his near-immortality with that. Orochimaru changed his body a lot after fleeing from the village, therefore, it became impossible for Hiruzen to kill him over the time.

[AlexGK]

Its called power inflation and, in case you missed it, Kishimoto has been abusing it A LOT in the last 2-3 years. What little sense it still had was completely lost after Nagato died. Kishimoto knows only one way to write his battles lately - spam new op tech left and right. He thinks thats cool, and he still has top 3 best-selling manga, so go figure.

[shafagh]

about QB's size ....

The truth is that Kishi has problem with sizes .....

[Rikudou King]

What? Lacking a high ranking technique certainly does make you weak, or at least weaker in comparison than if you could employ one. If Kakashi made a Kagebunshin and fought himself with one limited to just using C-rank jutus, I'd guarantee you the one who could use higher level jutsus would win all the time. Yes, we have seen powerful ninjas employ lower ranked jutsus, but they wouldn't be nearly as powerful without their high ranked abilities. Seriously, what does this argument even have to do with anything regarding the ability of one to use any elemental jutsu?

As mentioned, even the noted stronger ninjas don't have more then one or two techniques above B rank. Even powerhouses like Jiraiya and Itachi depend mainly upon those kind of techniques as oppose to throwing out solely A and S rank techniques. A "Kakashi" without one would simply be him not using Raikiri, which would hardly cause him to lose given all that we've seen Kakashi capable of. And the argument began over the idea of a ninja would have to learn a "high" ranking elemental technique for it to be worthwhile. Given that the majority of ninjas mainly employ C and B rank techniques, they wouldn't need to learn anything higher then that for it to be useful to them.

We don't know how the paper would react to somebody with a kekkai, but those are anomalies. The general shinobi only has one affinity. Kakashi displayed 3 different elemental jutsus, but his paper only crimpled displaying his Raiton affinity. It didn't do some crazy 3-affinity nulclear explosion. Jiraiya also stated no such thing in Hakuteiken's post. Mastering your own affinity into high ranks is already difficult as most don't even get that far. Even the exceptional ones, the jounins, mostly only manage to learn to use one more element beyond their own affinity. Its difficulty in using off-affinity jutsus directly explains why most ninjas don't use mulitple elemental jutsus and why using 5 elements is like impossible. Kakashi was NOT surprised by Kakuzu using 3 elements. He has no reason to as he could use 3 himself. I've been saying that since the beginning! The manga specifically states its the use of the 3 elements at SUCH A HIGH LEVEL that makes it impossible. That "impossible" remark is also just a hyperbole because of the difficulty and unlikelihood of one being able to do so. Even Sarutobi Hiruzen couldn't (or at least didn't) display that type of versatility. And he was known as the Professor. It also makes his "supposed" claim to know all of Konohas jutsu even more retarded.

Except they aren't anomalies, not in the overall sense. And Naruto specifically mentioned Sasuke having both natures, which Kakashi acknowledged. Jiraiya stated that no ninja could use all five elements. If natures play no part in it, then there would be no reason no ninja would be capable of learning them all. It makes the whole situation involving the Rinnegan and Kakuzu's technique meaningless. Why would using all five elements be considered some unique ability for the Rinnegan and why would Kakuzu have to purposely grab different nature hearts if any one would do? Kakashi was surprised and did specifically mention natures in the translations I showed, which also goes against you're assumption on what counts as high level considering they all were B-ranked. And as previously mentioned, we've seen nothing to indicate that mastering one's nature is difficult, especially at the level the majority of ninjas use.

It is never stated anywhere that elemental affinity is required to learn a jutsu. I'm done with this argument. I've said everything that needs to said, and I don't want to keep arguing in circles.

Never stated, but heavy implied by multiple events.

As chilibun said, if Sasuke or any other ninjas had more than one affinities it would simply show on paper.
Instead, even with someone like Kakashi, it simply shows its primary affinity. Why? Because, from what we gathered, ninjas have only one affinity, and can train for others. Considering that it takes year for the average ninja to master even his primary affinity, you can see why even the best can get to 2-3.
Hell Itachi freaking Uchiha is limited to 2, this tells you how difficult is to learn and implement other elements in one's arsenal, considering also its not like a ninja can train for his element and for nothing else.

Naruto responses to Kakashi's explanation on natures with inquiring about Sasuke having two and Kakashi acknowledges it being so. We don't know the exact mechanics of that paper, so claiming such would have to happen is flawed. Anyway, the issue isn't over the idea that a ninja can train to develop another nature, it's over the idea that a ninja is capable of using an elemental technique without having said nature. And we really haven't seen anything to indicate that the mastering training would be all that hard.

Sasuke didn't learn element transformation when Fugaku teached him Gokyakuu, his father said "use those hand-seals to morph chakra and see what happens" basically, he didn't go at lengths to explain Fire's properties like, for example, Asuma and Kakashi did for Naruto.
And its not a case that Sasuke excels at Raitons while he's only ( ) above average with normal Katons, just like Kakashi's only S rank jutsu is a Raiton one, while his best with Suitons and Dotons is a B rank

No, Sasuke probably learnt it before, since using any elemental technique involves transforming one's chakra into said element. And that argument really doesn't work, given that said techniques were developed from an already high ranking technique. Shouldn't they possess more high ranking individual lightning techniques and less techniques of other natures?

No, it doesn't. Was Madara defeated ? No. Don't give me crap about him being "almost" defeated. And I don't even care, Madara acknowledged him as a superior to the five Kages. It's done. I win !

He wasn't defeated because he used the Rinnegan, which is the point. Regular Madara wouldn't have had the Rinnegan and thus wouldn't have been able to save himself using the chakra absorption.

And you changed that slightly to make it "they seek the Rinnegan, it's their goal in life".

It was their goal, explaining why they focused on an Uchiha body and Mokuton implants.

I call others for what ? It's confirmed to not be Taijutsu, and it's not Ninjutsu. These terms are all used in real life, same as the Bunshin no Jutsu and Katon no Jutsu, and many more things. If you don't want to take the term, that doesn't matter. Using weapons is not Taijutsu. Kimimaro was not using ninja tools, he was using his body.

You call people out for saying something if it's not specifically stated in the series itself. Nowhere in the series was such a term used, instead any weapon usage was applied to taijutsu. Asuma's Flying Swallow is him using a knife and Kimimaro was using weapons, created from his own bones. Both are still counted as taijutsu, despite the usage of weaponry.

In the link I gave you is someone using Yin separately from Yang

... And that changes what I said how? We already know that genjutsu is connected to spiritual energy from Tsukuyomi. Chakra being made from both doesn't mean that one couldn't be used, just like with senjutsu and natural energy.

You're assuming the bold part.
And here Jiraya state six elements. Done.

No, I'm really not. And that was recon by the databook.

Perhaps his arm where slightly different, Or because it's a summoning jutsu. We have yet to see him forming hand seals. But, you're refusing a direct statement. He said directly "He can't use his arms". It's over man, what was shown can go to hell for all I care. He was openly stated to not be able to use his arms. Done. I'm not gonna bother taking you seriously, you can cry all you want...but I'm not taking you seriously.

He went from barely able to move his arms and needing Kabuto to preform the summoning for him to freely moving his arms and summoning himself. And really, it's ridiculous for you to disregard what was actually shown when it outright contradicts what was said. The statement that he can't use his arms was clearly shown wrong.

Because this
The translation you gave is full of garbage. That aside, you proved nothing, what Orochimaru did is a mystery. It never showed he can use hand seals or normal jutsus (not the summoning ones), it's unclear. But you know what's clear ? A freaking direct statement.

Again, sealing his chakra capacity was me putting it in a simple way for you to understand, not once did I say it was stated in the manga. However, sense you also like absolute proofs, go to the other four links. I win.

Um, you still haven't shown why that one translation should be considered the correct one over the other, over then for the simple fact it supports your argument. And I've proven my claim fully. I showed Orochimaru using his arms despite the claim otherwise and using a ninjutsu (summoning) despite Sarutobi stating he was taking that away.

Yet when I attempt to simplify what was shown in the series, it's completely wrong? Ridiculous. And since I've shown the Kyuubi back at full size, the toads talking about it's full power being used, and considering Minato's whole point was for Naruto to use the Kyuubi's power against Obito, disproving all your claims, I'm the one who won.

Strange, my dinner didn't perish, even though I made it using my hands. Yes, you're changing what was said. He created them using Yin-Yang release. Are you to provide me with a link saying they will disappear without one of the two ?

... Unless you ate your hands, your dinner was obviously made out of other materials. Again, it would be like making a triangle with your fingers and then pulling your hands apart. Without Yin and Yang, they don't exist.

You can see all of his body used to pin down the head. All of it, his right arm grabbing one hand while his left arm grabbing his ear. He is sitting on what appears to be his neck (nothing about his back is shown, and will never be shown seeing as the Kyuubi is laying on his side not his chest, there is no physical way he could sit on his back in that position). And if we assume he was on his shoulder, how would Gamabunta as a whole being as big as his upper body, help you ? Why I told you not to show the next page ? Because you see in the one before it, the Kyuubi's head is on the ground while Gama's head is above it since he is standing on him. From that angle, his head appears to be bigger sense it's closer. I didn't want you to show it, to avoid explaining common sense. If it says anything, it's how desperate you are.

I guess you don't understand how anatomy works. You can see Gamabunta's leg behind the Kyuubi's armpit, which would put Gamabunta on his back. And the whole reason Gamabunta is leaning to the size is because of the way the Kyuubi is positioned. Also, as mentioned, Gamabunta was capable of wrapping his whole hand around the Kyuubi's arms, which aren't that thin. Perspective wouldn't make Gamabunta's head several time bigger then the Kyuubi's unless they were originally of similar size. A smaller object would be made of similar size due to perspective.

Was the "similar example said to have used his life force ? Show me where Itachi's Susanno was using his life force. Since an argument has ended, you could simply ignore it, but you must keep on replying.

It was said in the third databook:

Only those who have carried mastery of Mangekyou Sharingan - the doujutsu feared by those around it as the strongest - to its extremes will come onto the god's territory. A guardian deity to its caster, it eats away their life at the same time

Link.

I didn't make that up, seeing as that's how the battle was written. Compare to the things you make up with every new reply, that pales.

By the way I ignored the last reply, I see no point in it.

Except since they did stand still for most of the battle, you claiming otherwise was making it up. And there is no point, because there's nothing you can rebut.

[KingOfNight]

Rikudou King

He wasn't defeated because he used the Rinnegan, which is the point. Regular Madara wouldn't have had the Rinnegan and thus wouldn't have been able to save himself using the chakra absorption.

I don't care. This is not about Madara.

It was their goal, explaining why they focused on an Uchiha body and Mokuton implants.

It's logical to assume that. But it's not a fact.

You call people out for saying something if it's not specifically stated in the series itself. Nowhere in the series was such a term used, instead any weapon usage was applied to taijutsu. Asuma's Flying Swallow is him using a knife and Kimimaro was using weapons, created from his own bones. Both are still counted as taijutsu, despite the usage of weaponry.

I call others for making up the weirdest things, not naming something unnamed. You're hoping to win this argument by saying "You call others for this and for that". When was any weapon use applied to Taijutsu ? You're defying both real world logic and manga logic. Taijustsu itself means "Body Techniques", how can using weapons count as Body technique ? Asuma was combining Taijutsu with his weapons and Kimimaro was combining his Taijutsu with His Kekkie Genkai. Nowhere was it said those two are all about Taijutsu.

... And that changes what I said how? We already know that genjutsu is connected to spiritual energy from Tsukuyomi. Chakra being made from both doesn't mean that one couldn't be used, just like with senjutsu and natural energy.

Yin and Yang can be used as separate releases. That's how.

No, I'm really not. And that was recon by the databook.

Yes, yes you're.

He went from barely able to move his arms and needing Kabuto to preform the summoning for him to freely moving his arms and summoning himself. And really, it's ridiculous for you to disregard what was actually shown when it outright contradicts what was said. The statement that he can't use his arms was clearly shown wrong.

Nope. What was said contradict what was shown. Orochimaru kept stating many and many times that he's not at full power. You're denying the latest, direct and undeniable statement that he can't use his arms with nothing but an unexplained summoning technique. And it's kinda funny as the table have turned. You're now going against what you said about the "newer information negate the old one".

Um, you still haven't shown why that one translation should be considered the correct one over the other, over then for the simple fact it supports your argument. And I've proven my claim fully. I showed Orochimaru using his arms despite the claim otherwise and using a ninjutsu (summoning) despite Sarutobi stating he was taking that away.

Here, check this one. Your translation is full of garbage as I said. The only reason you're sticking to it, is out of desperation. Am not gonna bother with the rest, as I mad it clear up there.

Yet when I attempt to simplify what was shown in the series, it's completely wrong? Ridiculous. And since I've shown the Kyuubi back at full size, the toads talking about it's full power being used, and considering Minato's whole point was for Naruto to use the Kyuubi's power against Obito, disproving all your claims, I'm the one who won.

When did you try to simplify something exactly ?

About the bold part, I'm gonna give this straight and I don't care what happens next... you're lying. You never showed him back at full size, the toad was talking about something else and you avoided answering to that in both times, because you know you're lying. Minato himself said he sealed half of his power in Naruto. And there is also loads of other statements about that. Done. These proofs are absolute. Bring me one, ONE statement saying otherwise. If I don't see it in your next reply, then I win this argument.

... Unless you ate your hands, your dinner was obviously made out of other materials. Again, it would be like making a triangle with your fingers and then pulling your hands apart. Without Yin and Yang, they don't exist.

If I made a triangle with my fingers then pulled my right arm away, would my left arm disappear from this world ? No. There will still be a half triangle unless I pull my left hand.

I guess you don't understand how anatomy works. You can see Gamabunta's leg behind the Kyuubi's armpit, which would put Gamabunta on his back. And the whole reason Gamabunta is leaning to the size is because of the way the Kyuubi is positioned. Also, as mentioned, Gamabunta was capable of wrapping his whole hand around the Kyuubi's arms, which aren't that thin. Perspective wouldn't make Gamabunta's head several time bigger then the Kyuubi's unless they were originally of similar size. A smaller object would be made of similar size due to perspective.

Behind his armpit ? It's clearly stomping the right side of his face, this means Gama is on either his shoulder or neck. Again he can't sit on the Kyuubi's back while he is in that position. Yes, perspective does make his ahead appear slightly bigger, not several times. Also, it's worth mentioning the Kyuubi's head was shown from the right side unlike Gama's. That and because Gama's head is rounder and wider made it seem as he's bigger. And again, how is he being about as big the upper side of his body while he is on four legs, is going to help your point ?

It was said in the third databook:

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Seeing as it has little to do with the argument that has already ENDED, can we move on ?

Except since they did stand still for most of the battle, you claiming otherwise was making it up. And there is no point, because there's nothing you can rebut.

But that's how it was written. And still pales compared to what you do. And there is no point, because both of us were right and wrong. Stop being so desperate.

[Rikudou King]

I don't care. This is not about Madara.

You're the one who brought up Madara's words in an attempt to prove Hashirama's strength in relation to the others.

It's logical to assume that. But it's not a fact.

How is it not fact when we know what they were doing?

I call others for making up the weirdest things, not naming something unnamed. You're hoping to win this argument by saying "You call others for this and for that". When was any weapon use applied to Taijutsu ? You're defying both real world logic and manga logic. Taijustsu itself means "Body Techniques", how can using weapons count as Body technique ? Asuma was combining Taijutsu with his weapons and Kimimaro was combining his Taijutsu with His Kekkie Genkai. Nowhere was it said those two are all about Taijutsu.

I was just pointing out your hypocrisy, because you have called people out for "not using exact manga proof". I gave you two examples of weapon techniques being called taijutsu. Asuma didn't employ any taijutsu, he simply used his knife. Same with Kimimaro. The second databook specifically mentions them using said weaponry is the technique:

TAIJUTSU; Hien (Flying Swallow Bird*)
User: Sarutobi Asuma
Offensive; Close range; Rank: B

Main text

An additional ninjutsu where one puts chakra into a blade such as a kunai or a sword, thus augmenting its power to harm and kill! The materialized chakra becomes part of the blade, promptly cleaving and slicing what it touches! In addition, it's also possible to alter the weapon's attack range by regulating the amount of chakra put into it. Ascertaining its position and tracks is a nigh-unfeasible deed.

Caption

-Keeping track of the luminous blades as they extend and retract is painfully hard!!

Picture comment

-High enough in density to become visible, the chakra strengthens the weapons and becomes a blade in its own right!!

-Asuma infuses his brass knuckles - his weapons of choice - with this jutsu and goes into battle.

KEKKEI GENKAI; Taijutsu; Tessenka no Mai: Hana (Dance of the Clematis: Flower)
User: Kimimaro
Offensive; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

The power of Shikotsumyaku concentrated in a single point. For a heavy price in chakra, one obtains the strongest of spears, an item of absolute sturdiness. It is the crystallization of the blood and skill of a clan who'd worked slaughter into its finest art.
Ultimate or not, this destructive power means nothing if the blow does not connect with the enemy. Therefore, a special two-step move consists in using "Tsuru" (Vine) to impede them if only for a moment, after which "Hana" (Flower) serves to infallibly deal the killing blow!!

Caption

-The spear that boasts a solidity absolute. Its destructiveness is a power bestowed by the God of Battle.

Picture comments

-Thrusting out the bones, then shaping them into a spear.

-An overly large bone spear, its hardness taken to the highest possible degree through compression and condensation. Handling it is not even worth considering without the physique that comes with Stage 2.

KEKKEI GENKAI; Taijutsu; Tessenka no Mai: Tsuru (Dance of the Clematis: Vine)
User: Kimimaro
Offensive; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Kimimaro enters Stage 2 and paints this masterpiece of slaughtering technique on the battlefield. Tessenka no Mai is a dance that beckons certain death, a dance of demise. Tsuru attacks, bending and twisting the spinal column like a veritable whip. Even if the prey was to survive its pressure somehow, another reason to despair awaits them next...

Captions

-The howl of this vine extensible and retractile at will is the introduction to a hellish symphony.

-Towards demise, towards death, towards destruction

Comments

-In Stage 2, the alterations to Kimimaro's appearance are as sudden and drastic as they are terrible. Because of his tail, his spinal column is terrifyingly extensive.

-The cartilage between the bones is elastic, which allows it the flexibility of a whip. As the distance to which it expands from it's holder's hand cannot be predicted, it is extremely difficult to avoid.

KEKKEI GENKAI; Taijutsu; Tsubaki no Mai (Dance of the Camelia)
User: Kimimaro
Offensive; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Drawing a Bone Pulse-created blade of bone, and unleashing a disorderly succession of stabs at a blinding speed...! Fast enough to leave after-images that make it appear as a multitude of hands and swords. Besides, the randomness of the moves makes them very difficult to predict.
It is virtually impossible to durably avoid this relentless, savage assault no matter one's reflexiveness and mobility. The first second of inattention will be the last, as the coup de grace comes with a stab or a strike, bleeding you dry and signing your death sentence.


Captions

-The blade of bone enters a disorderly rampage, each stab creating as many red blossoms!!

-Growing flowers of blood so that he may live!

Picture comments

-By Dances standards this one seems relatively simple, but this is something only Kimimaro can do!!

-The blade's trajectory may be changed at will with each strike! The attacks are coming from unexpected angles, making for dangerously confused defensive reactions...!

Yin and Yang can be used as separate releases. That's how.

And natural energy can be used separate from senjutsu, as Naruto showed against the Paths. Doesn't change that it's still a base in creating senjutsu.

Yes, yes you're.

Nope, reconned:

NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: RINNEGAN
User: Nagato
Supplementary; Rank: none

Main text

The doujutsu hosted by the founder of shinobi: Rikudou Sennin. Rinnegan's ripple pattern, expanding all over the eyes is the greatest particularity of all, as these pupils are sovereign, even amidst Sharingan and Byakugan, with which it forms the Three Great Doujutsu. The one who possesses these eyes, purported to have given birth to all ninjutsu, can grasp all five great nature alterations, upon which all ninjutsu are founded. Rumor has it they are sent by Heaven, when the world knows troubled times, to put those to an end, and be either a God of Creation, or a Destroyer who returns everything on the face of the Earth to nothingness.

Captions

-The supreme pupils that appear in turbulent times. Do they bring about creation or destruction?

-The secret behind ninjutsu's genesis expands like ripples!!

Picture comments

- The Six Paths of Pain share their field of vision, and boast a cooperation that leaves absolutely no openings!!

- Awakened to Rinnegan, the Pains have a shared field of vision to begin with, and they also have things such as chakra-disrupting weapons and undying bodies in common. However, whether these are part of the Rinnegan's power is still quite the riddle.

Link.

Nope. What was said contradict what was shown. Orochimaru kept stating many and many times that he can't take Sasuke as he is now due to being unable to use Ninjutsu. You're denying the latest, direct and undeniable statement that he can't use his arms with nothing but an unexplained summoning technique. And it's kinda funny as the table have turned. You're now going against what you said about the "newer information negate the old one".

Orochimaru never said that nor was anything ever mentioned about Orochimaru not being able to take Sasuke because of no ninjutsu. He said he didn't have the strength right now to take Sasuke's body. While, I should mention, swinging around his arms. And there's multiple examples of him using his arms to support said argument. Suigfetsu's statement not using his arms was negated by Orochimaru freely moving his arms afterward, so I'm not going against my claim.

Here, check this one. Your translation is full of garbage as I said. The only reason you're sticking to it, is out of desperation. Am not gonna bother with the rest, as I mad it clear up there.

Except that's the translation the disputed scans used, which doesn't help your case. And considering the current chapter had the Kyuubi creating enough chakra for Naruto to pass out cloaks to his friends and have it felt halfway across the world, my argument is actually supported by shown events.

When did you try to simplify something exactly ?

About the bold part, I'm gonna give this straight and I don't care what happens next... you're lying. You never showed him back at full size, the toad was talking about something else and you avoided answering to that in both times, because you know you're lying. Minato himself said he sealed half of his power in Naruto. And there is also loads of other statements about that. Done. These proofs are absolute. Bring me one, ONE statement saying otherwise. If I don't see it in your next reply, then I win this argument.

I attempted to simplify why one can't use who defeats who as a gauge of power.

I showed the Kyuubi in relation to Konoha village, not that much bigger then the giant toads, snakes, and Ichibi. The Toads were specifically talking about Naruto taking the Kyuubi's chakra and there is nothing indicating meaning something else. And I already pointed out that Minato sealing half in himself didn't do anything to the Kyuubi personally to prevent it from creating more chakra, and I used Orochimaru as proof of that. There's not a single statement in the series saying the Kyuubi doesn't currently have it's full power back, and that would make no sense, since the whole story has been built upon the idea that Akatsuki grabbing the Kyuubi would mean the complete Juubi. Not just that, but we know from the KinGin brothers that just having the chakra wouldn't allow Naruto to reach all nine tails or risk resurrecting the Kyuubi.

If I made a triangle with my fingers then pulled my right arm away, would my left arm disappear from this world ? No. There will still be a half triangle unless I pull my left hand.

Who said anything about something disappearing? The question was, how could the Kyuubi possess a form if it's missing the portion that's responsible for it having one. No Yin means the Kyuubi should be nothing but raw chakra incapable of resurrecting itself.

Behind his armpit ? It's clearly stomping the right side of his face, this means Gama is on either his shoulder or neck. Again he can't sit on the Kyuubi's back while he is in that position. Yes, perspective does make his ahead appear slightly bigger, not several times. Also, it's worth mentioning the Kyuubi's head was shown from the right side unlike Gama's. That and because Gama's head is rounder and wider made it seem as he's bigger. And again, how is he being about as big the upper side of his body while he is on four legs, is going to help your point ?

What? If Gamabunta's foot was on the Kyuubi's head, then not only would the Kyuubi's arm not be pulled up infront of Gamabunta's leg but the next page would have shown that. Yet we clearly see that Gamabunta's foot wasn't anywhere near the Kyuub's head. We can see the Kyuubi's head and shoulders in front of Gamabunta's face. Gamabunta's head appears at least three times bigger then the enlonged Kyuubi's head. And the point is that the Kyuubi wasn't "so much bigger" in relationship to Gamabunta.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Seeing as it has little to do with the argument that has already ENDED, can we move on ?

See, that's like the third time you have done that. Everytime I show you proof you're wrong, you claim that it "has nothing to do" with the argument.

But that's how it was written. And still pales compared to what you do. And there is no point, because both of us were right and wrong. Stop being so desperate.

Which doesn't change my point. I'm not the one attempting to make the battle out to be more then it was. It was a simple battle where Sarutobi had little challenge and all the time he needed to plan. I wasn't wrong there, nor am I "desperate".

[M3J]

Anyone wanna summarize how this ties in with the topic at hand, which is Hiruzen being stronger htan Madara?

And I said summarize, so be short and all.

[Rikudou King]

Anyone wanna summarize how this ties in with the topic at hand, which is Hiruzen being stronger htan Madara?

And I said summarize, so be short and all.

Originally began over an explanation of why one can't use "who beat who" as a strength gauge and why Sarutobi's feat against the Edo Hokges didn't measure up to the current situations, and it eventually branched out to the current state as comparisons and examples involving Sasuke and then the other Kages were used.

[M3J]

Oh, I see.

Well, the obvious answer would be that we can't use Part I to judge Hiruzen's strength as it would be now. Everyone got an immediate jump in power after the timeskip, including Hashirama. It makes sense that if Kishi wants to keep up Hiruzen's hype, he ups Hiruzen's power as well.

[suraj5898]

its doesn't matter what Kishimoto said because if in NARUTO anything can happen. now lets see madara + obito r defeating all ninjas and samurai but tomorrow we may be see naruto + sasuke defeat madara + obito. its meaningless to fight on this because Kishimoto can do anything in NARUTO like change history, make c class fighter to s class fighter and s class fighter to c class fighter