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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #931
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The whole deal with the Rinnegan is it giving the user the ability to use all five elements. Not much of a feat if any ninja is capable of them. And then there was the thing with Kakuzu, which one version had Kakashi shocked due to him using those different natures.
    It would still be a feat, actually. Nagato didn't use the techniques of other elements merely. He was using them to the utmost efficiency at ten, which would be ridiculous for any other, let them be geniuses or what.
    Though, in a way, I don't believe all elemental ninjutsu can be mastered through normal means, either.

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  3. #932
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Well, I assumed mastering one's element into higher is difficult simply by the fact that few has ever achieved it. It never occurred to me that shinobis simply preferred to be weak... Kakashi and Jiraiya made use of C/B-rank jutsus, but they also have the talent to learn and use a number of high level techniques. Most shinobi's don't and can't achieve that. If you can only achieve a C-rank jutsu with your own affinity, chance are, you don't have the talent to achieve much if anything with off-affinity elements. Its simple opportunity cost. You have to make a sacrifice in time and effort for everything, so why would you not play to your talents especially considering most don't get too far.
    Lack of high level technique shouldn't imply lack of mastery. Weak? C-rank and B-rank techniques are considered Chuunin and Jounin level techniques, while A-rank are Jounin and forbidden along with S-rank. The C/B are basically the bread and butter of ninjutsu. Most of the techniques Sarutobi used were B-rank with only a single A-rank. Aside from the Rasengan variations, Jiraiya's techniques were B-rank and below, and same for Kakashi apart from his own Chidori/Raikiri creation. Kakuzu was praised for using high level techniques, despite all his techniques being B-rank. Not to mention there's also the issue of chakra. For example, the Great Fireball technique is just C-rank, but requires more chakra then the standard Genin would be capable of using. And summoning, a B-rank technique, requires a huge amount of chakra to really make use of. Seeing as most ninjas don't make it to Jounin rank, how could they be expected to wield the same sort of techniques that the most powerful ninjas do, especially when said level of techniques are rare?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    People who are not kekkai users are generally born with one elemental affinity and that's what the chakra papers reveal. Now how are you suppose to know if you can use another element or not? You can't. You just train until you do learn it. Most jounins, who are supposed to be the most talented and exceptional shinobis, can only manage to learn a second element. Considering that, yes, the Rinnegan allowing you to easily learn all 5 elements is a damn incredible feat. Kakuzu only used 3 elements against Kakashi when he made that comment. Kakashi can use 3 himself, so what is there to be shocked about? Not that Kakuzu can use 3, but that he can use 3 at such a high level. He even mentions specifically mentions at "this level." The most talented shinobi's, the jounins, only manage to learn 2 and most don't even reach that level of high elemental manipulation. Kakuzu using 3 elements at such a level would make him like the most talented mf in the world. That's why Kakashi is shocked.
    We don't know how that test would react to someone with other natures. But more then likely, it would involved using training and handsigns, which control that sort of thing. Nothing was said about the Rinnegan being special because one could learn the elements "easier", simply the ability to preform all five nature transformations. And as mentioned, another translation has Kakashi mentioning the usage of multiple natures being the surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I thought there was quite a difference. But it does look pretty big crouched, so when it stretches fully, it'll look quite huge. Even crouched, it looked pretty big compared to a lot of big summons or bijuu.
    Crouched, it's about twice as big as the gate and sitting up about three times. The toads and snakes are twice as big as Konoha's gate, the Hachibi was enormous compared to Team Taka and the Ichibi towered over Suna likewise.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Half of its chakra sealed away could cause it to shrink down to half its size. It wouldn't necessarily shrink down to their size, but in half, which could be close to the bijuu's size. What about when Naruto goes bijuu mode? That's a pretty close depiction of post-Shiki Fuuijin Kyuubi.
    Doesn't fit though, because as shown, even the other Bijuus towered over villages and made people look like tiny. Half the Kyuubi would have to be smaller then the other Bijuus, yet as far as we've seen, it's still of similar size.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Not necessary if Bunta is just that heavy. I'm not saying it's that small, but it's not big enough to completely hold down the Kyuubi.

    How so? It could have been 10x taller than Konoha's gate, but now it's 5x taller thanks to half of its chakra being sealed.
    Gamabunta would have to weight a whole, whole lot more to keep the Kyuubi down without being of similar size, and considering how we've seen him and the other toads freely jump around, that's unlikely. And it did pretty much hold the Kyuubi down. Plus, Gamabunta was able to wrap his hand around the Kyuubi's arm, so unless the Kyuubi's arm is really skinny...

    But it's not 10x, it's 3x sitting up. We see that whenever it's shown in relation to the village.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    It would still be a feat, actually. Nagato didn't use the techniques of other elements merely. He was using them to the utmost efficiency at ten, which would be ridiculous for any other, let them be geniuses or what.
    Though, in a way, I don't believe all elemental ninjutsu can be mastered through normal means, either.
    Don't recall Nagato being mentioned as using the elements at ten, only all of Jiraiya's techniques.

  4. #933
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Don't recall Nagato being mentioned as using the elements at ten, only all of Jiraiya's techniques.
    That is true, but Jiraiya also said he mastered all the essential ones and also talked about proficiency here.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v41/c375/11.html

    On the other hand, he also pointed out that no person can have all 5 different elemental chakra. All that makes me to think Nagato showcased jutsu of all sorts, from each single element to lead Jiraiya into such conclusion.

  5. #934
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @Rikudou King,

    The difficulty and power of a jutsu generally increases as the ranking increases. It would be a pointless system if a C-rank jutsu required less skill and has more power than an A-rank jutsu. So does a lack of high level technique imply a lack of mastery? Not exactly, but they do share a correlation because a certain level of mastery is required as the level of technique increases. What does Jiraiya and Sarutobi using mostly B-rank jutsus have to do with anything? Just because you have a higher ranked jutsu doesn't mean you spam that jutsu for every situation. Only Naruto does that. B-ranked jutsus are also relatively high ranking. I don't recall that many jounins showcasing anything higher. The rest of that first paragraph is irrelevant. Shinobi's more or less develop their own skills after the academy. Its not like they reach jounin and then a jounin master comes and teaches them jounin techniques.

    We know exactly how those chakra papers react. Anything beyond what Kakashi explained is your own speculations. It reacts to the user's chakra and burns, cuts, etc. depending on the elemental affinity. The rinnegan giving the user all 6 the elemental affinities directly allows him to learn elemental ninjutsus easier. That's is the benefit of affinities. And like I said, Kakashi was shocked after seeing THREE elemental ninjustus. What is so unbelievable about that when he himself can use three. It is the fact that Kakuzu can use all 3 at such high levels, and yes, B-rank is relatively high. Your linked translation says "a jutsu of THIS HIGH CALIBER needs to be matched to their chakra." This is completely consistent with what I have been saying. Learning an off-affinity element jutsu is already difficult and jounins only manage to use 2 total. Using 3 at high rank levels would make Kakuzu like the Sarutobi "the Professor" Hiruzen level, which is unbelievably rare.
    Last edited by chilibun; January 15, 2013 at 09:10 PM.

  6. #935
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That is true, but Jiraiya also said he mastered all the essential ones and also talked about proficiency here.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v41/c375/11.html

    On the other hand, he also pointed out that no person can have all 5 different elemental chakra. All that makes me to think Nagato showcased jutsu of all sorts, from each single element to lead Jiraiya into such conclusion.
    I took essential techniques as the basic ones every ninja learns, but I suppose it could have wider meaning. And Jiraiya was aware of the legend of the Rinnegan beforehand, so that could also have been what he was basing things on.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    The difficulty and power of a jutsu generally increases as the ranking increases. It would be a pointless system if a C-rank jutsu required less skill and has more power than an A-rank jutsu. So does a lack of high level technique imply a lack of mastery? Not exactly, but they do share a correlation because a certain level of mastery is required as the level of technique increases. What does Jiraiya and Sarutobi using mostly B-rank jutsus have to do with anything? Just because you have a higher ranked jutsu doesn't mean you spam that jutsu for every situation. Only Naruto does that. B-ranked jutsus are also relatively high ranking. I don't recall that many jounins showcasing anything higher. The rest of that first paragraph is irrelevant. Shinobi's more or less develop their own skills after the academy. Its not like they reach jounin and then a jounin master comes and teaches them jounin techniques.
    I'm not denying that power increase with the ranking, I'm simply pointing out that the lack of a high ranking technique doesn't mean one is weak. We've seen just as many powerful ninjas employ said techniques as the regular ninjas do. A-rank and S-rank techniques are basically aces in the hole, most of which were the person's personal creation and pretty much the sole technique of that level they have. Very few ninjas have shown having more then one or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    We know exactly how those chakra papers react. Anything beyond what Kakashi explained is your own speculations. It reacts to the user's chakra and burns, cuts, etc. depending on the elemental affinity. The rinnegan giving the user all 6 the elemental affinities directly allows him to learn elemental ninjutsus easier. That's is the benefit of affinities. And like I said, Kakashi was shocked after seeing THREE elemental ninjustus. What is so unbelievable about that when he himself can use three. It is the fact that Kakuzu can use all 3 at such high levels, and yes, B-rank is relatively high. Your linked translation says "a jutsu of THIS HIGH CALIBER needs to be matched to their chakra." This is completely consistent with what I have been saying. Learning an off-affinity element jutsu is already difficult and jounins only manage to use 2 total. Using 3 at high rank levels would make Kakuzu like the Sarutobi "the Professor" Hiruzen level, which is unbelievably rare.
    I know we know how the paper reacts to single cases, but we don't know what would happen for a person with more natures, like someone with a bloodline limit. Anyway, Hakuteiken pointed out that Jiraiya states that using all the natures was impossible for a single ninja. And the point was that as established, C-rank and B-rank are most ninjas bread and butter. There's no reason most ninjas couldn't have multiple elemental techniques of around C-rank, especially when we haven't really seen learning techniques of those rank be difficult for even an average ninja, much less a skilled one. Having two or three elements shouldn't be rare enough to generate surprise when facing a powerful ninja.

  7. #936
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @Rikudou King,

    What? Lacking a high ranking technique certainly does make you weak, or at least weaker in comparison than if you could employ one. If Kakashi made a Kagebunshin and fought himself with one limited to just using C-rank jutus, I'd guarantee you the one who could use higher level jutsus would win all the time. Yes, we have seen powerful ninjas employ lower ranked jutsus, but they wouldn't be nearly as powerful without their high ranked abilities. Seriously, what does this argument even have to do with anything regarding the ability of one to use any elemental jutsu?

    We don't know how the paper would react to somebody with a kekkai, but those are anomalies. The general shinobi only has one affinity. Kakashi displayed 3 different elemental jutsus, but his paper only crimpled displaying his Raiton affinity. It didn't do some crazy 3-affinity nulclear explosion. Jiraiya also stated no such thing in Hakuteiken's post. Mastering your own affinity into high ranks is already difficult as most don't even get that far. Even the exceptional ones, the jounins, mostly only manage to learn to use one more element beyond their own affinity. Its difficulty in using off-affinity jutsus directly explains why most ninjas don't use mulitple elemental jutsus and why using 5 elements is like impossible. Kakashi was NOT surprised by Kakuzu using 3 elements. He has no reason to as he could use 3 himself. I've been saying that since the beginning! The manga specifically states its the use of the 3 elements at SUCH A HIGH LEVEL that makes it impossible. That "impossible" remark is also just a hyperbole because of the difficulty and unlikelihood of one being able to do so. Even Sarutobi Hiruzen couldn't (or at least didn't) display that type of versatility. And he was known as the Professor. It also makes his "supposed" claim to know all of Konohas jutsu even more retarded.

    It is never stated anywhere that elemental affinity is required to learn a jutsu. I'm done with this argument. I've said everything that needs to said, and I don't want to keep arguing in circles.
    Last edited by chilibun; January 16, 2013 at 12:49 AM.

  8. #937
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Jiraiya says no single person can have all 5 different elemental chakra.
    Anyway, it is never stated as such, but it still leaves the things as a question mark for me. I would focus on learning C-level ninjutsu from each element and keep my versatility level as high as possible, if I can really do that. Instead, every village focuses on its own forte element, and specializes on that to keep up with the balance. If it wasn't for that, ninja world wouldn't survive those three wars and most of the countries would be annihilated by one other. And I have all the reason to believe you need a specialty to use a jutsu, so that it becomes the enforcer of a struggling peace. But that is merely a speculation from my side.

    On another note, I don't really get what you mean by the level of techniques. I checked out wiki for the jutsu classification and the jutsu Kakashi used are not inferior to those Kakuzu used in terms of rank, so, it's not like Kakuzu has been using unbelievably tough techniques to surprise Kakashi.

  9. #938
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I know he said that, but I still say I doubt it, based on what we know now. Orochimaru didn't know about Shiki Fuujin when he said Hiruzen could have killed him ten years ago, though he could have meant before he became White Snake Orochimaru and was pretty mortal. Shame consistency failed, since back in Part I it wasn't hard to believe or wouldn't have been hard to believe Hiruzen would have been stronger than Madara or Hashirama.

    Kakashi told Naruto he created chidori because he couldn't combine his element with rasengan.
    That was to hype Hiruzen, even though I remember Oro thinking that while Hiruzen was using Shiki Fuuin to seal his hands.

    As for Chidori, are you sure?
    I remember saying Kakashi couldn't manage to combine Rasengan and his own element, not that he created Chidori because he couldn't use an elemental Rasengan, expecially considering how Rasengan isn't part of his arsenal

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Yeah because said technique required a good deal of chakra to use, more then a Genin should have, and his "mastery" was literally huge. Not to mention we're talking about him seven years before that when he had just begun school. But for transforming his chakra into another nature, he succeed on his first try. Sasuke having an affinity for lightning doesn't negate him having a fire nature too, which is the underlying point.
    As chilibun said, if Sasuke or any other ninjas had more than one affinities it would simply show on paper.
    Instead, even with someone like Kakashi, it simply shows its primary affinity. Why? Because, from what we gathered, ninjas have only one affinity, and can train for others. Considering that it takes year for the average ninja to master even his primary affinity, you can see why even the best can get to 2-3.
    Hell Itachi freaking Uchiha is limited to 2, this tells you how difficult is to learn and implement other elements in one's arsenal, considering also its not like a ninja can train for his element and for nothing else.

    Sasuke didn't learn element transformation when Fugaku teached him Gokyakuu, his father said "use those hand-seals to morph chakra and see what happens" basically, he didn't go at lengths to explain Fire's properties like, for example, Asuma and Kakashi did for Naruto.
    And its not a case that Sasuke excels at Raitons while he's only ( ) above average with normal Katons, just like Kakashi's only S rank jutsu is a Raiton one, while his best with Suitons and Dotons is a B rank

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Jiraiya says no single person can have all 5 different elemental chakra.
    Anyway, it is never stated as such, but it still leaves the things as a question mark for me. I would focus on learning C-level ninjutsu from each element and keep my versatility level as high as possible, if I can really do that. Instead, every village focuses on its own forte element, and specializes on that to keep up with the balance. If it wasn't for that, ninja world wouldn't survive those three wars and most of the countries would be annihilated by one other. And I have all the reason to believe you need a specialty to use a jutsu, so that it becomes the enforcer of a struggling peace. But that is merely a speculation from my side.

    On another note, I don't really get what you mean by the level of techniques. I checked out wiki for the jutsu classification and the jutsu Kakashi used are not inferior to those Kakuzu used in terms of rank, so, it's not like Kakuzu has been using unbelievably tough techniques to surprise Kakashi.
    Elemental manipulation isn't easy, one would have the same results as Sasuke did if he tried an elemental ninjutsu from nowhere imo

    Kakuzu overpowered Kakashi's S rank jutsu with his B rank, that's what Kakashi was talking about.
    The whole point is, if Guy A and Guy B used the same elemental jutsu with only Guy A having an affinity, I'm sure Guy A would win the confrontation, despite Guy B knowing and using the same jutsu.
    One needs an affinity to properly exploit the full strenght of the element, if one had natural second affinities why the hell Yamato and Kakashi didn't use KB training to find Naruto's secondary affinity and create another elemental Rasengan?

  10. #939
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Rikudou King

    Quote Quote:
    It does change it. You're entire argument is that defeat is all that matters and we have Madara nearly being defeated using the same powers he had against Hashirama. Either only defeat matters or the conditions of the fight matter too.
    No, it doesn't. Was Madara defeated ? No. Don't give me crap about him being "almost" defeated. And I don't even care, Madara acknowledged him as a superior to the five Kages. It's done. I win !

    Quote Quote:
    Of course they guessed that, which lead to the experiments. That's what a hypothesis is.
    And you changed that slightly to make it "they seek the Rinnegan, it's their goal in life".

    Quote Quote:
    And again, where was that term used in the series. Just because that's what it's considered in real life doesn't mean it applies to the series. See, this is the exact thing you call others out for. Kimimaro's dances are all considered taijutsu apart from his final one, yet they all involve him using bone weapons to fight.
    I call others for what ? It's confirmed to not be Taijutsu, and it's not Ninjutsu. These terms are all used in real life, same as the Bunshin no Jutsu and Katon no Jutsu, and many more things. If you don't want to take the term, that doesn't matter. Using weapons is not Taijutsu. Kimimaro was not using ninja tools, he was using his body.

    Quote Quote:
    As shown, Yin-Yang is the basis for creating chakra in the first place. Yin-Yang is separate and not counted as the other releases, as we learnt from Kakashi.
    In the link I gave you is someone using Yin separately from Yang

    Quote Quote:
    Cause the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story. It's really not, because Kakashi tells us there are only the five standard releases and the whole trick with the Rinnengan is it specifically allowing the user to use all five natures. If it was a regular element like the others, then there's no point in them not including it.
    You're assuming the bold part.
    And here Jiraya state six elements. Done.

    Quote Quote:
    Nice try, but... Orochimaru was outright shown using his arms, which is cleaerly different from before when he could barely move his arms. Now unless you're gonna call what was shown in the actual manga useless, I'm right.
    Perhaps his arm where slightly different, Or because it's a summoning jutsu. We have yet to see him forming hand seals. But, you're refusing a direct statement. He said directly "He can't use his arms". It's over man, what was shown can go to hell for all I care. He was openly stated to not be able to use his arms. Done. I'm not gonna bother taking you seriously, you can cry all you want...but I'm not taking you seriously.

    Quote Quote:
    Right translation? How so? What puts this translation over the one I gave? And I outright showed via Orochimaru, that things sealed by the Dead Demon seal aren't gone completely. The Dead Demon seal doesn't even work the way you're trying to claim. Since you're such a fan of having absolute proof, please show me where it was shown the Dead Demon seal can do something like change chakra capacity.
    Because this
    The translation you gave is full of garbage. That aside, you proved nothing, what Orochimaru did is a mystery. It never showed he can use hand seals or normal jutsus (not the summoning ones), it's unclear. But you know what's clear ? A freaking direct statement.

    Again, sealing his chakra capacity was me putting it in a simple way for you to understand, not once did I say it was stated in the manga. However, sense you also like absolute proofs, go to the other four links. I win.

    Quote Quote:
    Sure, if it's made from your hands. All the Bijuus are is the chakra he formed and gave life. They don't have any other material in their creation. I'm not changing what was said, I repeated exactly what was said about Yin and Yang release.
    Strange, my dinner didn't perish, even though I made it using my hands. Yes, you're changing what was said. He created them using Yin-Yang release. Are you to provide me with a link saying they will disappear without one of the two ?

    Quote Quote:
    Gamabunta's not on the Kyuubi's head, he's on the Kyuubi's back, behind his shoulders. And why shouldn't i show the next page, which shows thathe Kyuubi's head is about as big as Gamabunta's head. Not to mention I posted other links showing the Kyuubi wasn't much taller then a giant summon. The mere fact that you acknowledge you're gonna ignore the evidence says plenty.
    You can see all of his body used to pin down the head. All of it, his right arm grabbing one hand while his left arm grabbing his ear. He is sitting on what appears to be his neck (nothing about his back is shown, and will never be shown seeing as the Kyuubi is laying on his side not his chest, there is no physical way he could sit on his back in that position). And if we assume he was on his shoulder, how would Gamabunta as a whole being as big as his upper body, help you ? Why I told you not to show the next page ? Because you see in the one before it, the Kyuubi's head is on the ground while Gama's head is above it since he is standing on him. From that angle, his head appears to be bigger sense it's closer. I didn't want you to show it, to avoid explaining common sense. If it says anything, it's how desperate you are.

    Quote Quote:
    It's not an assumption when I showed a similar example. And what do you mean the series hasn't talked about using life force? We've had that since Itachi's Susanoo, where we're informed that Susanoo is powered by the user's life force. And all I did was point out that despite your words, you're still doing it.
    Was the "similar example said to have used his life force ? Show me where Itachi's Susanno was using his life force. Since an argument has ended, you could simply ignore it, but you must keep on replying.

    Quote Quote:
    ... Situational example: an example that applies in a limited situation. I called you out for attempting to get a skewed result for using that, and then went on to mentioned what you made up, like the Edo Hokages not standing still most of their battle.
    I didn't make that up, seeing as that's how the battle was written. Compare to the things you make up with every new reply, that pales.

    By the way I ignored the last reply, I see no point in it.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; January 16, 2013 at 09:52 AM.

  11. #940
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    That was to hype Hiruzen, even though I remember Oro thinking that while Hiruzen was using Shiki Fuuin to seal his hands.

    As for Chidori, are you sure?
    I remember saying Kakashi couldn't manage to combine Rasengan and his own element, not that he created Chidori because he couldn't use an elemental Rasengan, expecially considering how Rasengan isn't part of his arsenal
    I thought he said that before the Shiki Fuujin. But I doubt Orochimaru would just say that. If anything, the ANBU could have said that just to hype up Hiruzen. Why would Orochimaru admit someone being superior back then?

    That's what I meant. <_< Anyway, dunno why Kakashi doesn't use it as part of his arsenal, but we know he can use it. Maybe Hiruzen can use it too, but chooses not to.

  12. #941
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    @M3J


    Quote Quote:
    Wait, when was it shown that the fully grown Kyuubi was the same size as other bijuu? The only time we see them together is during the war, after Kyuubi had half its chakra sealed in Minato. The Kyuubi that attacked Konoha seemed much larger than the Ichibi that came out of Gaara.
    We know:

    1-The young Kyuubi has the same size as ALL the other bijus.
    2-All the other biju's after growing up kept the same size (the diference in size between them) the same.
    3- Nobody stated "hey Kurama how come you are at half size".... Not even 1 of the bijus...

    So we have 8 other biju's who did NOT change as growing up then you belive Kurama did? Makes no sense. So what i am telling you is that for this to be invalidated we need them 1 next to the other when older and showing Kurama 2x the size and not the other way around...
    Kurama was NEVER stated to be more powerfull because of its SIZE but because it has more tails. Even Kurama belived to be the stronger of them all because it had MORE TAILS... 8 tails even contradicted Kurama's belive in this area...

    Quote Quote:
    How is it "wtf" moment? THat's like me telling you I took away few apples, showing you a basket of apples, and asking you to guess how many there were originally and how many I took away. You can't guess because you don't know how many apples there were originally or how many were taken away. Same applies with the Kyuubi - you don't know how tall it was in comparison to the other bijuu before it had its chakra sealed. Hell, for all we know the bijuu's true size is 2x bigger than what we've seen when the jinchuuriki transformed. I think the turtle is the only bijuu we've seen free, and it was nowhere as big as the Kyuubi, if I recall. If you're confused as to what bijuu I'm talking about, it's the one that Deidara and Tobi got with Deidara's bakuton.

    Diference is that compared to your example we do know how "many apples" we had originaly. We have Kurama next to its brothers as young bijus... Then we have the other 8 "apples" all growing up and keeping the size diference.
    The tortoise could be viewed from a wrong angle. They where all showed in that special dimension they all share 1 next to the other and they where same size(well the ones that where actualy in there).

    Quote Quote:
    That's not a fact at all, considering it seriously does look a lot smaller. When Kyuubi was freed from Kushina, both she and Tobi looked like tiny pricks and hard to see when Kishi was drawing Kyuubi standing. However, I don't think Gai or Kakashi looked that small when standing next to Hachibi or Kyuubi.
    First off that hand that was left in the dirt (paw print) from when it whent smaller is not even well made. Going from the size diference it whent smaller by a greater degree then 50%...
    Let me show you something. 100% Kurama:

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/503/10

    Head size comparison between Gamabunta and Kurama.... Now compare Gamabunta with Minato. Minato is the size of Gama's eye... So that means Minato is about the same size of Kurama's eye. Actualy Minato is a littel bigger then the eyes (Gamabunta's and Kurama's). Now Naruto in his mind world had the SAME SIZE compared to Kurama's EYE.
    Kurama is not even way bigger then Gamabunta man... How the hell can it be 2x the size of OTHER BIJUS???!?!?!?!?!? Kurama is not 2x the size of Bunta lol.... Yes Kurama would be taller is it stand on its legs but that is because its a fox, it has longer legs.

    Quote Quote:
    Proof? You only posted manga panels having it same size AFTER it had half its chakra sealed. I'm ignoring nothing, I even pointed out why I"m not using that as a fact or basis for Kyuubi having its whole chakra back. All we have to go by are comparisons. Kyuubi easily towered over the trees on four legs while Ichibi and Bunta were few meters taller than the trees.
    No you have panels of it at the same size when they where little. Now stop comparin bloody trees. .. It can be influence by tree age, tree type. terain and a few other factors.
    When Kurama was showed next to Konoha's buildings it was bigger then a giant snake or a giant toad but not BY MUCH. Kurama is not even bigger then Bunta by a hight degree.

    Quote Quote:
    Of course it's mind boggling to you. But how does Minato saying he sealed half of Kyuubi's chakra contradict what Jiraiya said? Minato never said he didn't seal ying or yang, or could have done so and meant half of its chakra.
    He said he sealed 50% because he could not do more. If he wanted to seal just Yang/Ying part of chakra he would not be dealing in how much i can seal. He would state i sealed 40% because that is the part of chakra that was yin or yang or whatever. The yang or ying chakra would have a predefined percentage out of the hole. If Minato just sealed as much as he could then it becomes imposible for him to have sealed just the part that he wanted.

    Quote Quote:
    We don't know that it can be killed but regenerate. We take it as fact only because it was said so, but we haven't seen it in action, have we?
    So you are telling me Raikage, Tsunade, Minato and Kushina had NO BLOODY IDEA about what they where talking about and you need on screen panels with this actualy happening? All the above people stating this is enough evidence...

    If killed it pops back in time. You can just delay it. Why do you thing RS sealed the Juubi in the moon and split the chakra? Because the Juubi would come back in time after he died... Oh and you do have this happening somewhat curently with the Juubi.


    Quote Quote:
    I did look at other factors, and I did show links and comparison about its size. Once again, why would Minato seal half of its chakra in himself when it'd just recover its chakra in few years?
    Well obviously i can give you posibilities. The most logical one was because Naruto as a baby could not handle that much power.
    Minato wanted to keep the biju balance. If that was possible by just sealing Kurama in Naruto.... Why the hell did he kill himself?

    Also we don't know how long it would take BUT we can asume he wanted Naruto to start with a less powerfull biju so he can handle the chakra and as he grew up he could adapt to this chakra little by little.
    Its like taking poison over time to increase your tolerance to it.

    Quote Quote:
    I doubt the trees that Naruto and Killerbee fought the jinchuuriki in or the trees in Naruto vs. Gaara are taller than the tree on top of the cliff that Minato and Kushina were on, which Kyuubi easily towered over.

    And like I said, Kyuubi was crouching pretty low, at least compared to the frog and snakes.
    Kurama has long lags because its a fox. The snake and Bunta have low legs(well snakes don't). Now if a snake would strech out it would be taller then Kurama lol. Thing is compare the heads, eyes and so on.
    Take that monkey biju, it woudl have larger paw then Kurama as it is a monkey. Wolfes have smaller paws.

    In the end not even here:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_NQnB2HzN0..._Hashirama.png
    And Kurama does not look like having 2x the size of other bijus...

    @Uchiha_Blood

    Quote Quote:
    Don't be mad, we are discussing a manga
    Mad? I am not mad. I just pointed out we have no reason to keep posting the same thing.

    Quote Quote:
    It actually does, since your post is based on 2 things:

    -Kyuubi is the same dimension than other Bijuus
    -Naruto's Bijuu mode is the same as Kyuubi
    You can add to this the fact that Kurama in Naruto's mind is the same size as the other bijus. Well perhaps it would fall into your nr.1 but still.

    Quote Quote:
    Both aren't right, or rather the first is unconfirmed, and in the second you don't keep in mind that, in Bijuu mode, their chakra is melded, thus its not Kyuubi, but Naruto+Kyuubi.
    For the first thing we have Kurama and the rest the same size as kids. The other 8 biju's kept the same diference as growing up. Kurama somehow ending up 2x the size of other bijus when its not even 2x the size of Bunta (look when Minato summoned bunta on Kurama and compare there heads).... Well it would make no sense.... Now bunta is 2x the size of other bijus to (well close to as Kurama is a little bigger).

    Now you also have the same size when comparing Naruto and Kurama in his head. Naruto is about the size of Kurama's eye like the other bijus are. Kurama's paw also has the same size as the other biju's paws (ignoring the diference created by the diference in animals).

    Now i don't belive Naruto's own chakra is used to create the chakra Kurama considering he does not end up tired when it ends. Now Bee stated that when Naruto is using Kurama's chakra he is using that and not his own. How much is minglend with Kurama i have no idea... Thing is you can be most sure that Naruto is not providing 50% of Kurama's chakra to give it 50% more hight.. Its just not possible. Hell Bee is doing the same thing so if Kurama would be bigger would Bee's form be also bigger? Its a diferent type of transformation true but Bee is also dumping chakra there.

    Quote Quote:
    Naruto2011's post, on the other hand, makes a direct comparison between the sealed Kyuubi and the actual Kyuubi.
    Fact is Kyuubi didn't grew one bit after 16 years
    Hmmz? Someone it has now the same size as ALL the other bijus and it somehow had the same size as the other bijus when Kurama was little... Hell you can explain to me how Bunta is also 2x the size of other biju's if we go this route. Well close to 2x ... Its actualy more like 1,5 for bunta. Ignoring feature that would make Kurama bigger as it is a fox and has longer legs. Bunta and Kurama have close to the same size in there heads. Kurama has longer legs and a longer torso as its a fox. Now if Kurama was 2x the size of other bijus it should have a head some 3 times as bigger as Bunta and for some reason it did not...

    Quote Quote:
    What Nagato being a God has to do with anything?
    Orochimaru's claim wasn't disproven, neither it was a rumor since, again, Orochimaru wasn't a stranger, but was Hiruzen's prized disciple, as such he surely knew well his sensei. Would you argue that, say, Naruto doesn't know all there is to know about Kakashi? Or Shikamaru about Asuma?
    First off Orochimaru stated that Sarutobi was said to be... Like it was rumored. Anyway if we belive Orochimaru's claim why should we not belive Nagato's claim that he was God? Well he retracted his claim when he died stating that perhaps this is the will of the true God but why should we belive Oro just because we never had the oportunity to be proven wrong?

    Emm you think Naruto knows all of Kakashi's jutsus? All the tactics Kakashi can create and so on? All of Kakashi backstory? He did not even know about Obito... Yes i do belive Naruto does not know a TON about Kakashi and i do belive Orochimaru did not know a lot of things about his sensei... For instance he did not know about the DG seal... He did now know how much Sarutobi slowed down in his old age and so on...

    Quote Quote:
    As for part 2, Kakashi also thought Rikudou was a mith, that the Sharingan was derived from the Byakugan and so on
    If, say, Madara, or Obito, or Hashirama would've said something like that I would agree with you, but Kakashi was disproven countless times. His knowledge is the average ninja knowledge, he also said, if I remember right, that FRS was impossible
    And talking about hype and whatnot, Kakashi's comment was made to hype Kakuzu as well.

    Point being, who is more believable, someone who knows all about Hiruzen, or someone who was proven to be wrong time and time again?
    So let me gues this streigh you first use a link of what Kakashi stated to back up your claim that what is impresive is the mastery behind the number of afinities but when i use Kakashi to show you it was about AFINITIES then it becomes a bad source of information?

    Now Orochimaru stated that its rumor and the fact that Sarutobi knows them. He did not state perform them. Also Orochimaru does not knows all about Sarutobi. I can prove you wrong there and easy. He did not know a lot of things about Sarutobi... DG seal, power level now that he is old, other information that Sarutobi would have learned (jutsus and other stuff) AFTER Oro left the village.... Also even when in the village i am sure Orochimaru did not know all the techs Sarutobi knew. Considering the number of them i don't see how he could. Ask Naruto and Sakura if they know all the jutsus Kakashi has and i am sure they would have no idea. Sure they know a bunch of them but to know them all? No way. Kakashi did not even tell them about Kamui to the point he used it. Obito aparently did not know about Minato's ST level 2 but that is probably because Minato developed it after Obito was "dead", thing is this would also apply to Sarutobi and how he could learn a lot of stuff or forget after Oro left the village. Heh Oro even addressed what other people where calling Sarutobi, the profesor as people belived he knew all the jutsus in Konoha.
    Last edited by xXan; January 17, 2013 at 03:53 AM.

  13. #942
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I thought he said that before the Shiki Fuujin. But I doubt Orochimaru would just say that. If anything, the ANBU could have said that just to hype up Hiruzen. Why would Orochimaru admit someone being superior back then?

    That's what I meant. <_< Anyway, dunno why Kakashi doesn't use it as part of his arsenal, but we know he can use it. Maybe Hiruzen can use it too, but chooses not to.
    I think he was referring to his near-immortality with that. Orochimaru changed his body a lot after fleeing from the village, therefore, it became impossible for Hiruzen to kill him over the time.

  14. #943
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member AlexGK's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Its called power inflation and, in case you missed it, Kishimoto has been abusing it A LOT in the last 2-3 years. What little sense it still had was completely lost after Nagato died. Kishimoto knows only one way to write his battles lately - spam new op tech left and right. He thinks thats cool, and he still has top 3 best-selling manga, so go figure.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    about QB's size ....

    The truth is that Kishi has problem with sizes .....
    خداحافظ

  17. #945
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    What? Lacking a high ranking technique certainly does make you weak, or at least weaker in comparison than if you could employ one. If Kakashi made a Kagebunshin and fought himself with one limited to just using C-rank jutus, I'd guarantee you the one who could use higher level jutsus would win all the time. Yes, we have seen powerful ninjas employ lower ranked jutsus, but they wouldn't be nearly as powerful without their high ranked abilities. Seriously, what does this argument even have to do with anything regarding the ability of one to use any elemental jutsu?
    As mentioned, even the noted stronger ninjas don't have more then one or two techniques above B rank. Even powerhouses like Jiraiya and Itachi depend mainly upon those kind of techniques as oppose to throwing out solely A and S rank techniques. A "Kakashi" without one would simply be him not using Raikiri, which would hardly cause him to lose given all that we've seen Kakashi capable of. And the argument began over the idea of a ninja would have to learn a "high" ranking elemental technique for it to be worthwhile. Given that the majority of ninjas mainly employ C and B rank techniques, they wouldn't need to learn anything higher then that for it to be useful to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    We don't know how the paper would react to somebody with a kekkai, but those are anomalies. The general shinobi only has one affinity. Kakashi displayed 3 different elemental jutsus, but his paper only crimpled displaying his Raiton affinity. It didn't do some crazy 3-affinity nulclear explosion. Jiraiya also stated no such thing in Hakuteiken's post. Mastering your own affinity into high ranks is already difficult as most don't even get that far. Even the exceptional ones, the jounins, mostly only manage to learn to use one more element beyond their own affinity. Its difficulty in using off-affinity jutsus directly explains why most ninjas don't use mulitple elemental jutsus and why using 5 elements is like impossible. Kakashi was NOT surprised by Kakuzu using 3 elements. He has no reason to as he could use 3 himself. I've been saying that since the beginning! The manga specifically states its the use of the 3 elements at SUCH A HIGH LEVEL that makes it impossible. That "impossible" remark is also just a hyperbole because of the difficulty and unlikelihood of one being able to do so. Even Sarutobi Hiruzen couldn't (or at least didn't) display that type of versatility. And he was known as the Professor. It also makes his "supposed" claim to know all of Konohas jutsu even more retarded.
    Except they aren't anomalies, not in the overall sense. And Naruto specifically mentioned Sasuke having both natures, which Kakashi acknowledged. Jiraiya stated that no ninja could use all five elements. If natures play no part in it, then there would be no reason no ninja would be capable of learning them all. It makes the whole situation involving the Rinnegan and Kakuzu's technique meaningless. Why would using all five elements be considered some unique ability for the Rinnegan and why would Kakuzu have to purposely grab different nature hearts if any one would do? Kakashi was surprised and did specifically mention natures in the translations I showed, which also goes against you're assumption on what counts as high level considering they all were B-ranked. And as previously mentioned, we've seen nothing to indicate that mastering one's nature is difficult, especially at the level the majority of ninjas use.

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    It is never stated anywhere that elemental affinity is required to learn a jutsu. I'm done with this argument. I've said everything that needs to said, and I don't want to keep arguing in circles.
    Never stated, but heavy implied by multiple events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    As chilibun said, if Sasuke or any other ninjas had more than one affinities it would simply show on paper.
    Instead, even with someone like Kakashi, it simply shows its primary affinity. Why? Because, from what we gathered, ninjas have only one affinity, and can train for others. Considering that it takes year for the average ninja to master even his primary affinity, you can see why even the best can get to 2-3.
    Hell Itachi freaking Uchiha is limited to 2, this tells you how difficult is to learn and implement other elements in one's arsenal, considering also its not like a ninja can train for his element and for nothing else.
    Naruto responses to Kakashi's explanation on natures with inquiring about Sasuke having two and Kakashi acknowledges it being so. We don't know the exact mechanics of that paper, so claiming such would have to happen is flawed. Anyway, the issue isn't over the idea that a ninja can train to develop another nature, it's over the idea that a ninja is capable of using an elemental technique without having said nature. And we really haven't seen anything to indicate that the mastering training would be all that hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Sasuke didn't learn element transformation when Fugaku teached him Gokyakuu, his father said "use those hand-seals to morph chakra and see what happens" basically, he didn't go at lengths to explain Fire's properties like, for example, Asuma and Kakashi did for Naruto.
    And its not a case that Sasuke excels at Raitons while he's only ( ) above average with normal Katons, just like Kakashi's only S rank jutsu is a Raiton one, while his best with Suitons and Dotons is a B rank
    No, Sasuke probably learnt it before, since using any elemental technique involves transforming one's chakra into said element. And that argument really doesn't work, given that said techniques were developed from an already high ranking technique. Shouldn't they possess more high ranking individual lightning techniques and less techniques of other natures?

    Spoiler: KingOfNight;3253686 show

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