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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Though, in a way, I don't believe all elemental ninjutsu can be mastered through normal means, either.
another translation has Kakashi mentioning the usage of multiple natures being the surprise.
Hachibi was enormous compared to Team Taka and the Ichibi towered over Suna likewise.
But it's not 10x, it's 3x sitting up. We see that whenever it's shown in relation to the village.
On the other hand, he also pointed out that no person can have all 5 different elemental chakra. All that makes me to think Nagato showcased jutsu of all sorts, from each single element to lead Jiraiya into such conclusion.
The difficulty and power of a jutsu generally increases as the ranking increases. It would be a pointless system if a C-rank jutsu required less skill and has more power than an A-rank jutsu. So does a lack of high level technique imply a lack of mastery? Not exactly, but they do share a correlation because a certain level of mastery is required as the level of technique increases. What does Jiraiya and Sarutobi using mostly B-rank jutsus have to do with anything? Just because you have a higher ranked jutsu doesn't mean you spam that jutsu for every situation. Only Naruto does that. B-ranked jutsus are also relatively high ranking. I don't recall that many jounins showcasing anything higher. The rest of that first paragraph is irrelevant. Shinobi's more or less develop their own skills after the academy. Its not like they reach jounin and then a jounin master comes and teaches them jounin techniques.
We know exactly how those chakra papers react. Anything beyond what Kakashi explained is your own speculations. It reacts to the user's chakra and burns, cuts, etc. depending on the elemental affinity. The rinnegan giving the user all 6 the elemental affinities directly allows him to learn elemental ninjutsus easier. That's is the benefit of affinities. And like I said, Kakashi was shocked after seeing THREE elemental ninjustus. What is so unbelievable about that when he himself can use three. It is the fact that Kakuzu can use all 3 at such high levels, and yes, B-rank is relatively high. Your linked translation says "a jutsu of THIS HIGH CALIBER needs to be matched to their chakra." This is completely consistent with what I have been saying. Learning an off-affinity element jutsu is already difficult and jounins only manage to use 2 total. Using 3 at high rank levels would make Kakuzu like the Sarutobi "the Professor" Hiruzen level, which is unbelievably rare.
Last edited by chilibun; January 15, 2013 at 09:10 PM.
What? Lacking a high ranking technique certainly does make you weak, or at least weaker in comparison than if you could employ one. If Kakashi made a Kagebunshin and fought himself with one limited to just using C-rank jutus, I'd guarantee you the one who could use higher level jutsus would win all the time. Yes, we have seen powerful ninjas employ lower ranked jutsus, but they wouldn't be nearly as powerful without their high ranked abilities. Seriously, what does this argument even have to do with anything regarding the ability of one to use any elemental jutsu?
We don't know how the paper would react to somebody with a kekkai, but those are anomalies. The general shinobi only has one affinity. Kakashi displayed 3 different elemental jutsus, but his paper only crimpled displaying his Raiton affinity. It didn't do some crazy 3-affinity nulclear explosion. Jiraiya also stated no such thing in Hakuteiken's post. Mastering your own affinity into high ranks is already difficult as most don't even get that far. Even the exceptional ones, the jounins, mostly only manage to learn to use one more element beyond their own affinity. Its difficulty in using off-affinity jutsus directly explains why most ninjas don't use mulitple elemental jutsus and why using 5 elements is like impossible. Kakashi was NOT surprised by Kakuzu using 3 elements. He has no reason to as he could use 3 himself. I've been saying that since the beginning! The manga specifically states its the use of the 3 elements at SUCH A HIGH LEVEL that makes it impossible. That "impossible" remark is also just a hyperbole because of the difficulty and unlikelihood of one being able to do so. Even Sarutobi Hiruzen couldn't (or at least didn't) display that type of versatility. And he was known as the Professor. It also makes his "supposed" claim to know all of Konohas jutsu even more retarded.
It is never stated anywhere that elemental affinity is required to learn a jutsu. I'm done with this argument. I've said everything that needs to said, and I don't want to keep arguing in circles.
Last edited by chilibun; January 16, 2013 at 12:49 AM.
Jiraiya says no single person can have all 5 different elemental chakra.
Anyway, it is never stated as such, but it still leaves the things as a question mark for me. I would focus on learning C-level ninjutsu from each element and keep my versatility level as high as possible, if I can really do that. Instead, every village focuses on its own forte element, and specializes on that to keep up with the balance. If it wasn't for that, ninja world wouldn't survive those three wars and most of the countries would be annihilated by one other. And I have all the reason to believe you need a specialty to use a jutsu, so that it becomes the enforcer of a struggling peace. But that is merely a speculation from my side.
On another note, I don't really get what you mean by the level of techniques. I checked out wiki for the jutsu classification and the jutsu Kakashi used are not inferior to those Kakuzu used in terms of rank, so, it's not like Kakuzu has been using unbelievably tough techniques to surprise Kakashi.
As for Chidori, are you sure?
I remember saying Kakashi couldn't manage to combine Rasengan and his own element, not that he created Chidori because he couldn't use an elemental Rasengan, expecially considering how Rasengan isn't part of his arsenal
Instead, even with someone like Kakashi, it simply shows its primary affinity. Why? Because, from what we gathered, ninjas have only one affinity, and can train for others. Considering that it takes year for the average ninja to master even his primary affinity, you can see why even the best can get to 2-3.
Hell Itachi freaking Uchiha is limited to 2, this tells you how difficult is to learn and implement other elements in one's arsenal, considering also its not like a ninja can train for his element and for nothing else.
Sasuke didn't learn element transformation when Fugaku teached him Gokyakuu, his father said "use those hand-seals to morph chakra and see what happens" basically, he didn't go at lengths to explain Fire's properties like, for example, Asuma and Kakashi did for Naruto.
And its not a case that Sasuke excels at Raitons while he's only ( ) above average with normal Katons, just like Kakashi's only S rank jutsu is a Raiton one, while his best with Suitons and Dotons is a B rank
Kakuzu overpowered Kakashi's S rank jutsu with his B rank, that's what Kakashi was talking about.
The whole point is, if Guy A and Guy B used the same elemental jutsu with only Guy A having an affinity, I'm sure Guy A would win the confrontation, despite Guy B knowing and using the same jutsu.
One needs an affinity to properly exploit the full strenght of the element, if one had natural second affinities why the hell Yamato and Kakashi didn't use KB training to find Naruto's secondary affinity and create another elemental Rasengan?
No, it doesn't. Was Madara defeated ? No. Don't give me crap about him being "almost" defeated. And I don't even care, Madara acknowledged him as a superior to the five Kages. It's done. I win !Quote:
And you changed that slightly to make it "they seek the Rinnegan, it's their goal in life".Quote:
I call others for what ? It's confirmed to not be Taijutsu, and it's not Ninjutsu. These terms are all used in real life, same as the Bunshin no Jutsu and Katon no Jutsu, and many more things. If you don't want to take the term, that doesn't matter. Using weapons is not Taijutsu. Kimimaro was not using ninja tools, he was using his body.Quote:
In the link I gave you is someone using Yin separately from YangQuote:
You're assuming the bold part.Quote:
And here Jiraya state six elements. Done.
Perhaps his arm where slightly different, Or because it's a summoning jutsu. We have yet to see him forming hand seals. But, you're refusing a direct statement. He said directly "He can't use his arms". It's over man, what was shown can go to hell for all I care. He was openly stated to not be able to use his arms. Done. I'm not gonna bother taking you seriously, you can cry all you want...but I'm not taking you seriously.Quote:
The translation you gave is full of garbage. That aside, you proved nothing, what Orochimaru did is a mystery. It never showed he can use hand seals or normal jutsus (not the summoning ones), it's unclear. But you know what's clear ? A freaking direct statement.
Again, sealing his chakra capacity was me putting it in a simple way for you to understand, not once did I say it was stated in the manga. However, sense you also like absolute proofs, go to the other four links. I win.
Strange, my dinner didn't perish, even though I made it using my hands. Yes, you're changing what was said. He created them using Yin-Yang release. Are you to provide me with a link saying they will disappear without one of the two ?Quote:
You can see all of his body used to pin down the head. All of it, his right arm grabbing one hand while his left arm grabbing his ear. He is sitting on what appears to be his neck (nothing about his back is shown, and will never be shown seeing as the Kyuubi is laying on his side not his chest, there is no physical way he could sit on his back in that position). And if we assume he was on his shoulder, how would Gamabunta as a whole being as big as his upper body, help you ? Why I told you not to show the next page ? Because you see in the one before it, the Kyuubi's head is on the ground while Gama's head is above it since he is standing on him. From that angle, his head appears to be bigger sense it's closer. I didn't want you to show it, to avoid explaining common sense. If it says anything, it's how desperate you are.Quote:
Was the "similar example said to have used his life force ? Show me where Itachi's Susanno was using his life force. Since an argument has ended, you could simply ignore it, but you must keep on replying.Quote:
I didn't make that up, seeing as that's how the battle was written. Compare to the things you make up with every new reply, that pales.Quote:
By the way I ignored the last reply, I see no point in it.
Last edited by KingOfNight; January 16, 2013 at 09:52 AM.
That's what I meant. <_< Anyway, dunno why Kakashi doesn't use it as part of his arsenal, but we know he can use it. Maybe Hiruzen can use it too, but chooses not to.
1-The young Kyuubi has the same size as ALL the other bijus.
2-All the other biju's after growing up kept the same size (the diference in size between them) the same.
3- Nobody stated "hey Kurama how come you are at half size".... Not even 1 of the bijus...
So we have 8 other biju's who did NOT change as growing up then you belive Kurama did? Makes no sense. So what i am telling you is that for this to be invalidated we need them 1 next to the other when older and showing Kurama 2x the size and not the other way around...
Kurama was NEVER stated to be more powerfull because of its SIZE but because it has more tails. Even Kurama belived to be the stronger of them all because it had MORE TAILS... 8 tails even contradicted Kurama's belive in this area...
Diference is that compared to your example we do know how "many apples" we had originaly. We have Kurama next to its brothers as young bijus... Then we have the other 8 "apples" all growing up and keeping the size diference.
The tortoise could be viewed from a wrong angle. They where all showed in that special dimension they all share 1 next to the other and they where same size(well the ones that where actualy in there).
First off that hand that was left in the dirt (paw print) from when it whent smaller is not even well made. Going from the size diference it whent smaller by a greater degree then 50%...Quote:
Let me show you something. 100% Kurama:
Head size comparison between Gamabunta and Kurama.... Now compare Gamabunta with Minato. Minato is the size of Gama's eye... So that means Minato is about the same size of Kurama's eye. Actualy Minato is a littel bigger then the eyes (Gamabunta's and Kurama's). Now Naruto in his mind world had the SAME SIZE compared to Kurama's EYE.
Kurama is not even way bigger then Gamabunta man... How the hell can it be 2x the size of OTHER BIJUS???!?!?!?!?!? Kurama is not 2x the size of Bunta lol.... Yes Kurama would be taller is it stand on its legs but that is because its a fox, it has longer legs.
No you have panels of it at the same size when they where little. Now stop comparin bloody trees. .. It can be influence by tree age, tree type. terain and a few other factors.Quote:
When Kurama was showed next to Konoha's buildings it was bigger then a giant snake or a giant toad but not BY MUCH. Kurama is not even bigger then Bunta by a hight degree.
He said he sealed 50% because he could not do more. If he wanted to seal just Yang/Ying part of chakra he would not be dealing in how much i can seal. He would state i sealed 40% because that is the part of chakra that was yin or yang or whatever. The yang or ying chakra would have a predefined percentage out of the hole. If Minato just sealed as much as he could then it becomes imposible for him to have sealed just the part that he wanted.Quote:
So you are telling me Raikage, Tsunade, Minato and Kushina had NO BLOODY IDEA about what they where talking about and you need on screen panels with this actualy happening? All the above people stating this is enough evidence...Quote:
If killed it pops back in time. You can just delay it. Why do you thing RS sealed the Juubi in the moon and split the chakra? Because the Juubi would come back in time after he died... Oh and you do have this happening somewhat curently with the Juubi.
Well obviously i can give you posibilities. The most logical one was because Naruto as a baby could not handle that much power.Quote:
Minato wanted to keep the biju balance. If that was possible by just sealing Kurama in Naruto.... Why the hell did he kill himself?
Also we don't know how long it would take BUT we can asume he wanted Naruto to start with a less powerfull biju so he can handle the chakra and as he grew up he could adapt to this chakra little by little.
Its like taking poison over time to increase your tolerance to it.
Kurama has long lags because its a fox. The snake and Bunta have low legs(well snakes don't). Now if a snake would strech out it would be taller then Kurama lol. Thing is compare the heads, eyes and so on.Quote:
Take that monkey biju, it woudl have larger paw then Kurama as it is a monkey. Wolfes have smaller paws.
In the end not even here:
And Kurama does not look like having 2x the size of other bijus...
Mad? I am not mad. I just pointed out we have no reason to keep posting the same thing.Quote:
You can add to this the fact that Kurama in Naruto's mind is the same size as the other bijus. Well perhaps it would fall into your nr.1 but still.Quote:
For the first thing we have Kurama and the rest the same size as kids. The other 8 biju's kept the same diference as growing up. Kurama somehow ending up 2x the size of other bijus when its not even 2x the size of Bunta (look when Minato summoned bunta on Kurama and compare there heads).... Well it would make no sense.... Now bunta is 2x the size of other bijus to (well close to as Kurama is a little bigger).Quote:
Now you also have the same size when comparing Naruto and Kurama in his head. Naruto is about the size of Kurama's eye like the other bijus are. Kurama's paw also has the same size as the other biju's paws (ignoring the diference created by the diference in animals).
Now i don't belive Naruto's own chakra is used to create the chakra Kurama considering he does not end up tired when it ends. Now Bee stated that when Naruto is using Kurama's chakra he is using that and not his own. How much is minglend with Kurama i have no idea... Thing is you can be most sure that Naruto is not providing 50% of Kurama's chakra to give it 50% more hight.. Its just not possible. Hell Bee is doing the same thing so if Kurama would be bigger would Bee's form be also bigger? Its a diferent type of transformation true but Bee is also dumping chakra there.
Hmmz? Someone it has now the same size as ALL the other bijus and it somehow had the same size as the other bijus when Kurama was little... Hell you can explain to me how Bunta is also 2x the size of other biju's if we go this route. Well close to 2x ... Its actualy more like 1,5 for bunta. Ignoring feature that would make Kurama bigger as it is a fox and has longer legs. Bunta and Kurama have close to the same size in there heads. Kurama has longer legs and a longer torso as its a fox. Now if Kurama was 2x the size of other bijus it should have a head some 3 times as bigger as Bunta and for some reason it did not...Quote:
First off Orochimaru stated that Sarutobi was said to be... Like it was rumored. Anyway if we belive Orochimaru's claim why should we not belive Nagato's claim that he was God? Well he retracted his claim when he died stating that perhaps this is the will of the true God but why should we belive Oro just because we never had the oportunity to be proven wrong?Quote:
Emm you think Naruto knows all of Kakashi's jutsus? All the tactics Kakashi can create and so on? All of Kakashi backstory? He did not even know about Obito... Yes i do belive Naruto does not know a TON about Kakashi and i do belive Orochimaru did not know a lot of things about his sensei... For instance he did not know about the DG seal... He did now know how much Sarutobi slowed down in his old age and so on...
So let me gues this streigh you first use a link of what Kakashi stated to back up your claim that what is impresive is the mastery behind the number of afinities but when i use Kakashi to show you it was about AFINITIES then it becomes a bad source of information?Quote:
Now Orochimaru stated that its rumor and the fact that Sarutobi knows them. He did not state perform them. Also Orochimaru does not knows all about Sarutobi. I can prove you wrong there and easy. He did not know a lot of things about Sarutobi... DG seal, power level now that he is old, other information that Sarutobi would have learned (jutsus and other stuff) AFTER Oro left the village.... Also even when in the village i am sure Orochimaru did not know all the techs Sarutobi knew. Considering the number of them i don't see how he could. Ask Naruto and Sakura if they know all the jutsus Kakashi has and i am sure they would have no idea. Sure they know a bunch of them but to know them all? No way. Kakashi did not even tell them about Kamui to the point he used it. Obito aparently did not know about Minato's ST level 2 but that is probably because Minato developed it after Obito was "dead", thing is this would also apply to Sarutobi and how he could learn a lot of stuff or forget after Oro left the village. Heh Oro even addressed what other people where calling Sarutobi, the profesor as people belived he knew all the jutsus in Konoha.
Last edited by xXan; January 17, 2013 at 03:53 AM.
Its called power inflation and, in case you missed it, Kishimoto has been abusing it A LOT in the last 2-3 years. What little sense it still had was completely lost after Nagato died. Kishimoto knows only one way to write his battles lately - spam new op tech left and right. He thinks thats cool, and he still has top 3 best-selling manga, so go figure.
about QB's size ....
The truth is that Kishi has problem with sizes .....
And Naruto specifically mentioned Sasuke having both natures, which Kakashi acknowledged. Jiraiya stated that no ninja could use all five elements. If natures play no part in it, then there would be no reason no ninja would be capable of learning them all. It makes the whole situation involving the Rinnegan and Kakuzu's technique meaningless. Why would using all five elements be considered some unique ability for the Rinnegan and why would Kakuzu have to purposely grab different nature hearts if any one would do? Kakashi was surprised and did specifically mention natures in the translations I showed, which also goes against you're assumption on what counts as high level considering they all were B-ranked. And as previously mentioned, we've seen nothing to indicate that mastering one's nature is difficult, especially at the level the majority of ninjas use.
Naruto responses to Kakashi's explanation on natures with inquiring about Sasuke having two and Kakashi acknowledges it being so. We don't know the exact mechanics of that paper, so claiming such would have to happen is flawed. Anyway, the issue isn't over the idea that a ninja can train to develop another nature, it's over the idea that a ninja is capable of using an elemental technique without having said nature. And we really haven't seen anything to indicate that the mastering training would be all that hard.