The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[Rikudou King]

Oh, I see.

Well, the obvious answer would be that we can't use Part I to judge Hiruzen's strength as it would be now. Everyone got an immediate jump in power after the timeskip, including Hashirama. It makes sense that if Kishi wants to keep up Hiruzen's hype, he ups Hiruzen's power as well.

Tried pointing out that Kishi has reconned a bunch of things and the new info must be taken over the old, but apparently if it wasn't specifically and directly quoted in the series, it can't be considered true.

[M3J]

That's the downside though. You can't take everything said as facts as Kishi isn't saying it as facts, but from the characters' point of view and what they know. It should also be based on action, among other stuff.

Words can always be proven wrong, actions are rarely ever proven wrong.

[KingOfNight]

Rikudou King

You're the one who brought up Madara's words in an attempt to prove Hashirama's strength in relation to the others.

And, how is this connected to him being almost defeated ?

How is it not fact when we know what they were doing?

It's just not. They were researching the Sharingan, assumed it can go into Rinnegan, and that's it. They never said it was their goal.

I was just pointing out your hypocrisy, because you have called people out for "not using exact manga proof".

It's not hypocrisy when it's an entirely different thing. I don't remember calling someone for naming something, beside I took from the Wiki, so I haven't really made this up.

I gave you two examples of weapon techniques being called taijutsu. Asuma didn't employ any taijutsu, he simply used his knife. Same with Kimimaro. The second databook specifically mentions them using said weaponry is the technique:

First off, Asuma. You should check before posting. While it was classified as Taijutsu (a mistake maybe), in the main text it was stated to be a Ninjutsu :

An additional ninjutsu where one puts chakra into a blade such as a kunai or a sword,

So it was likely a mistake. And you should check some more before you post, I really mean that. This Jutsu is using chakra in addition to the blade to create a whole new ability. Nothing about using the weapon itself was said to be a Taijutsu or Ninjutsu.

Kimimaro...He's not using Ninja tools. It's his body, it's along the alley of Taijutsu anyway.

And natural energy can be used separate from senjutsu, as Naruto showed against the Paths. Doesn't change that it's still a base in creating senjutsu.

That really has nothing to do with it. He clearly stated he is a Yin element user. So Yin is different from Yang and are not always bound together.

Nope, reconned:

Wow, this has absolutely nothing to do with this argument. Nothing...

Orochimaru never said that nor was anything ever mentioned about Orochimaru not being able to take Sasuke because of no ninjutsu. He said he didn't have the strength right now to take Sasuke's body. While, I should mention, swinging around his arms. And there's multiple examples of him using his arms to support said argument. Suigfetsu's statement not using his arms was negated by Orochimaru freely moving his arms afterward, so I'm not going against my claim.

It's not about swinging your arm. This was not the point of the Hiruzen sealing them. He can't use his Ninjutsus. That's the point. When Hiruzen used DDS he said he will seal all of his Jutsus.

Except that's the translation the disputed scans used, which doesn't help your case. And considering the current chapter had the Kyuubi creating enough chakra for Naruto to pass out cloaks to his friends and have it felt halfway across the world, my argument is actually supported by shown events.

Dude, he simply regenerated his chakra. What's so special about that ? Several characters have done the same. And once again, because you desperately drag this, I forgot the original argument.

I attempted to simplify why one can't use who defeats who as a gauge of power.

That's entirely, ENTIRELY different from what I did. It has no connection at all. What I did was, simply taking my point (a factual one), and putting it in a very simple way for you to understand it quickly and we can get this over with. This has no connection to you giving your opinion about defeating someone can't be used as a measure of power.

Who said anything about something disappearing? The question was, how could the Kyuubi possess a form if it's missing the portion that's responsible for it having one. No Yin means the Kyuubi should be nothing but raw chakra incapable of resurrecting itself.

Which is a groundless statement that doesn't make any sense. Nowhere was it said that him losing his Yin half would mean him losing his form.

What? If Gamabunta's foot was on the Kyuubi's head, then not only would the Kyuubi's arm not be pulled up infront of Gamabunta's leg but the next page would have shown that. Yet we clearly see that Gamabunta's foot wasn't anywhere near the Kyuub's head. We can see the Kyuubi's head and shoulders in front of Gamabunta's face. Gamabunta's head appears at least three times bigger then the enlonged Kyuubi's head. And the point is that the Kyuubi wasn't "so much bigger" in relationship to Gamabunta.

This dragging for too long so let's make it simply. Okay his leg was on his head (still not convinced but okay). Three times is exaggerating, at best 1.5x times bigger. Not so much bigger than Gamabunta ? Him standing on four legs is bigger than Gamabunta on two. Gama's whole body is about as big as the Kyuubi's upper body. So in the end he is much bigger.

See, that's like the third time you have done that. Everytime I show you proof you're wrong, you claim that it "has nothing to do" with the argument.

It's true. Nothing to do with our original argument. You've proved that "using once life force" thing does actually exist, okay, cool. But...does it say The Kyuubi used his life force ? Does it say Nagato did ? No. So it really has nothing to do with the original. And please, move on. I already said I don't care about this argument.

Which doesn't change my point. I'm not the one attempting to make the battle out to be more then it was. It was a simple battle where Sarutobi had little challenge and all the time he needed to plan. I wasn't wrong there, nor am I "desperate".

I never made the battle more than it was. I simply didn't go arguing about "why they didn't do this" and "why they were doing that". You weren't exactly "Wrong"...it's just random.

[Rikudou King]

And, how is this connected to him being almost defeated ?

Because were it not for a power that he gained after his time with Hashirama, the Rinnegan, he would have been defeated by the three. By your own argument, his strength is thus below theirs.

It's just not. They were researching the Sharingan, assumed it can go into Rinnegan, and that's it. They never said it was their goal.

Orochimaru mentioned several times his desire to learn everything and Kabuto outright spoke of his goal of learning the secrets of the Rikudou Sennin.

It's not hypocrisy when it's an entirely different thing. I don't remember calling someone for naming something, beside I took from the Wiki, so I haven't really made this up.

You have, called people out for not using information that was in the series itself. Said term does not apply to the Naruto series.

First off, Asuma. You should check before posting. While it was classified as Taijutsu (a mistake maybe), in the main text it was stated to be a Ninjutsu :

So it was likely a mistake. And you should check some more before you post, I really mean that. This Jutsu is using chakra in addition to the blade to create a whole new ability. Nothing about using the weapon itself was said to be a Taijutsu or Ninjutsu.

Kimimaro...He's not using Ninja tools. It's his body, it's along the alley of Taijutsu anyway.

... So you're acknowledging that the databook can have errors and thus can't be trusted, like everyone was trying to tell you?

Anyway, it could simply mean it can be enhanced by an additional ninjutsu, since chakra flow is actually basic and states right at the bottom about it pertaining to Asuma and his knife. Swords, spears, and whips are weaponry, which are exactly what those techniques use. There's nothing about his body apart from him simply creating said weapons to use.

That really has nothing to do with it. He clearly stated he is a Yin element user. So Yin is different from Yang and are not always bound together.

It has plenty. The fact that it can be used separately doesn't change that it's also used together. Thus the whole senjutsu/natural energy example. And no one ever claim they weren't different.

Wow, this has absolutely nothing to do with this argument. Nothing...

Absolutely love how when you're shown wrong, it has "absolutely nothing to do with the argument". And yeah, it does. It goes back to the point about changing things previously stated as facts.

It's not about swinging your arm. This was not the point of the Hiruzen sealing them. He can't use his Ninjutsus. That's the point. When Hiruzen used DDS he said he will seal all of his Jutsus.

And a side effect of him getting his arms sealed was that he lost the usage of his arm, shown in that very chapter. All throughout the Sannin fight, Orochimaru didn't move his arms a bit. But once he switched bodies, he could move his arms freely and use ninjutsu that we know require handsigns. And not just snake techniques, but regular techniques too. So no matter how you look at it, Orochimaru was no longer affected by the Dead Demon seal, at least not at the level he originally was.

Dude, he simply regenerated his chakra. What's so special about that ? Several characters have done the same. And once again, because you desperately drag this, I forgot the original argument.

Yes, that's the point. Minato taking away half it's chakra doesn't prevent it from regenerating more to replace what was lost. The only thing the Dead Demon seal seals is what was taken, not anything else.

That's entirely, ENTIRELY different from what I did. It has no connection at all. What I did was, simply taking my point (a factual one), and putting it in a very simple way for you to understand it quickly and we can get this over with. This has no connection to you giving your opinion about defeating someone can't be used as a measure of power.

I gave two reason examples of average ninjas defeating much stronger opponents due to special circumstances to show the whole who beats who doesn't work.

Which is a groundless statement that doesn't make any sense. Nowhere was it said that him losing his Yin half would mean him losing his form.

It was stated that the Yin half gave it form. No Yin half clearly means no form. It's makes prefect sense, and obviously why Kishi changed it to just being chakra later on.

This dragging for too long so let's make it simply. Okay his leg was on his head (still not convinced but okay). Three times is exaggerating, at best 1.5x times bigger. Not so much bigger than Gamabunta ? Him standing on four legs is bigger than Gamabunta on two. Gama's whole body is about as big as the Kyuubi's upper body. So in the end he is much bigger.

Um, no, his leg wasn't on his head, which was your claim. And again, the Kyuubi was about twice as big as the fence and buildings in Konoha when crouched, making it about three times as big normally. A giant snake and toad are about twice as big as the gate. It's fellow Bijuu, the Ichibi, was also about three times as big as the surrounding buildings in the village. So we clearly see the Kyuubi wasn't massively bigger then any of them before it was sealed, and since it's not smaller then any of them currently, it's back to normal.

It's true. Nothing to do with our original argument. You've proved that "using once life force" thing does actually exist, okay, cool. But...does it say The Kyuubi used his life force ? Does it say Nagato did ? No. So it really has nothing to do with the original. And please, move on. I already said I don't care about this argument.

Goes right back to the powerlevels of the Bijuus, and thus the challenge they posed in being defeated. It didn't have to say because it showed us them literally wasting away, something that wouldn't happen by just using chakra.

I never made the battle more than it was. I simply didn't go arguing about "why they didn't do this" and "why they were doing that". You weren't exactly "Wrong"...it's just random.

You did actually. You got upset because I pointed out that the fight against the Edo Hokages didn't measure up to a Kage level battle, and therefore was no challenge. You disagreed. I asked how could they have been a challenged if they weren;t fighting at their best and didn't do anything challenging, and you made it out as if I was attempting to change the story. Fact is, the Edo Hokages just don't measure up to the current battle-scale, and Sarutobi defeating them is no longer impressive since they didn't have their current feats.

[KingOfNight]

Because were it not for a power that he gained after his time with Hashirama, the Rinnegan, he would have been defeated by the three. By your own argument, his strength is thus below theirs.

That doesn't matter. He said Hashirama is above the Kages combined. That's it. Done. I win this.

Orochimaru mentioned several times his desire to learn everything and Kabuto outright spoke of his goal of learning the secrets of the Rikudou Sennin.

As I said it's logical to assume that. But not yet a fact.

You have, called people out for not using information that was in the series itself. Said term does not apply to the Naruto series.

When I saw it in the in the wiki I thought it was stated somewhere. Also being an actual ninja art, made it more obvious to me. Still, if you don't want to take it then just don't. Calling me hypocrite for something I didn't know is not the right way to use the word "hypocrite". But you know what, yes it doesn't exist in the manga, so I'm not saying anything except that I got my informations wrong.

... So you're acknowledging that the databook can have errors and thus can't be trusted, like everyone was trying to tell you?

Anyway, it could simply mean it can be enhanced by an additional ninjutsu, since chakra flow is actually basic and states right at the bottom about it pertaining to Asuma and his knife. Swords, spears, and whips are weaponry, which are exactly what those techniques use. There's nothing about his body apart from him simply creating said weapons to use.

No. Typing or naming mistakes are far different from simply saying everything in the Databook is a lie.

Again, using the weapon itself was not stated or even hinted. The whole Jutsu involve him using his chakra with the weapon to create a more powerful form of attack and altering it's range.

It has plenty. The fact that it can be used separately doesn't change that it's also used together. Thus the whole senjutsu/natural energy example. And no one ever claim they weren't different.

I don't get what you're trying to say. He simply said he is a Yin element user, if it's like you say, he should've said "I'm Yin-Yang user specialized in Yin" or something like that.

Absolutely love how when you're shown wrong, it has "absolutely nothing to do with the argument". And yeah, it does. It goes back to the point about changing things previously stated as facts.

No. It really has nothing at all to do with what I said. I said you assumed that " the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story", and then suddenly, out of nowhere, you just jumped in and brought me the whole Rinngan is the source of Jutsus. That's random as...It's just random. What does the Rinnegan being the source of all Jutsus, have to do with the toad and Tobi ?

And a side effect of him getting his arms sealed was that he lost the usage of his arm, shown in that very chapter. All throughout the Sannin fight, Orochimaru didn't move his arms a bit. But once he switched bodies, he could move his arms freely and use ninjutsu that we know require handsigns. And not just snake techniques, but regular techniques too. So no matter how you look at it, Orochimaru was no longer affected by the Dead Demon seal, at least not at the level he originally was.

And in that very page, you see him saying once again you can't use your Jutsus. And about that snake Jutsu, where did he use seals ?
And that fire technique...who's to say he used it ? And even if he used it, here he used something similar without changing his body and at the time he was asking Tsunade to help cure his arm. So who knows what's the deal with him and the DDS. But by your logic, his Jutsus are still sealed, because you said newer information negated the old one.

Yes, that's the point. Minato taking away half it's chakra doesn't prevent it from regenerating more to replace what was lost. The only thing the Dead Demon seal seals is what was taken, not anything else.

An assumption. While it was stated that tons of times that half of his chakra is sealed forever. Nothing is there to say otherwise, so I win. I'm not about to reply to this anymore, because I can see, you hope to win these discussions by dragging it and hope people will just quite. Unless there is one statement that he regained the chakra that was sealed, that he regained his Yin half. It's over.

I gave two reason examples of average ninjas defeating much stronger opponents due to special circumstances to show the whole who beats who doesn't work.

Again that's a different thing. This here is you, trying to force your opinion on me. What I did is, take the facts and say them in a simple way. It's just making what's long and hard to understand...short and simple. That's it.

It was stated that the Yin half gave it form. No Yin half clearly means no form. It's makes prefect sense, and obviously why Kishi changed it to just being chakra later on.

It was stated that with Yin he formed them and with Yang he gave them life. That's it, they were created using Yin and Yang, and now they are living beings with their own Yin and Yang parts. Beside, you could take your opinion to Kishimoto as I said before, and ask him to change his mind. But as of now, He doesn't have his Yin half. Done.

Um, no, his leg wasn't on his head, which was your claim. And again, the Kyuubi was about twice as big as the fence and buildings in Konoha when crouched, making it about three times as big normally. A giant snake and toad are about twice as big as the gate. It's fellow Bijuu, the Ichibi, was also about three times as big as the surrounding buildings in the village. So we clearly see the Kyuubi wasn't massively bigger then any of them before it was sealed, and since it's not smaller then any of them currently, it's back to normal.

My bad, I meant to say "Okay his legs are on his back\shoulder (whatever it is you said)" to end this as quickly as possible. That aside, Gamabunta is as big as the Kyuubi's upper half, and sense Gamabunta and the Shukaku are the same size...
And the Sand village's buildings are probably different, don't just compare things however you like. And once more, all this is just an assumption, because while it was clearly shown that he got smaller, to make stubborn people like you understand. Nothing about him returning to his original size was shown. It's over.

Goes right back to the powerlevels of the Bijuus, and thus the challenge they posed in being defeated. It didn't have to say because it showed us them literally wasting away, something that wouldn't happen by just using chakra.

And again, the concept of him using life force was never even hinted in the Manga. It's the same with the Bukijutsu thing. We both assumed something, because it seems rather obvious. And we both thought of them as facts. But you don't want to admit you're wrong at all, you just have to keep dragging this in hope I would give up or get bored. And again, you don't have to reply to what's over.

You did actually. You got upset because I pointed out that the fight against the Edo Hokages didn't measure up to a Kage level battle, and therefore was no challenge. You disagreed. I asked how could they have been a challenged if they weren;t fighting at their best and didn't do anything challenging, and you made it out as if I was attempting to change the story. Fact is, the Edo Hokages just don't measure up to the current battle-scale, and Sarutobi defeating them is no longer impressive since they didn't have their current feats.

I didn't. You said they weren't fighting at their best, I said prove it, you said they were standing around. That's not what I meant by prove it. What I meant is a clear statement like Itachi not wanting to kill Sasuke on purpose or something like that. Not your view on the battle.

[Rikudou King]

That doesn't matter. He said Hashirama is above the Kages combined. That's it. Done. I win this.

And he was shown below three of them with his own skills, therefore showing that being able to defeat someone does not make one stronger.

As I said it's logical to assume that. But not yet a fact.

How is it not yet a fact when the entire series has been built upon that concept and we outright have their words confirming it?

When I saw it in the in the wiki I thought it was stated somewhere. Also being an actual ninja art, made it more obvious to me. Still, if you don't want to take it then just don't. Calling me hypocrite for something I didn't know is not the right way to use the word "hypocrite". But you know what, yes it doesn't exist in the manga, so I'm not saying anything except that I got my informations wrong.

Perhaps you shouldn't be relying upon a wiki as a first source. There are dozens of real ninja arts that aren't involved in this series, so you shouldn't have assumed anything. And that's not the reason I referred to you as a hypocrite.

No. Typing or naming mistakes are far different from simply saying everything in the Databook is a lie.

Again, using the weapon itself was not stated or even hinted. The whole Jutsu involve him using his chakra with the weapon to create a more powerful form of attack and altering it's range.

Aside from there being dozens of examples proving the databook erroneous nature, you can't which part s the error, can you? Using the weapon was stated. I pointed out where it was stated in all the cases. And applying chakra to a weapon or tool is chakra flow, which isn't a specific technique but general ability.

I don't get what you're trying to say. He simply said he is a Yin element user, if it's like you say, he should've said "I'm Yin-Yang user specialized in Yin" or something like that.

... Yin and Yang are separate portions that are used together, like natural energy in regards to senjutsu. That doesn't mean they can't be used independently, again like natural energy in regards to Sage Mode.

No. It really has nothing at all to do with what I said. I said you assumed that " the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story", and then suddenly, out of nowhere, you just jumped in and brought me the whole Rinngan is the source of Jutsus. That's random as...It's just random. What does the Rinnegan being the source of all Jutsus, have to do with the toad and Tobi ?

... I gave you another piece of evidence showing that there was only five nature releases, stated to be the source of all ninjutsu. No mention of a sixth.

And in that very page, you see him saying once again you can't use your Jutsus. And about that snake Jutsu, where did he use seals ?
And that fire technique...who's to say he used it ? And even if he used it, here he used something similar without changing his body and at the time he was asking Tsunade to help cure his arm. So who knows what's the deal with him and the DDS. But by your logic, his Jutsus are still sealed, because you said newer information negated the old one.

Which doesn't change that Orochimaru was shown entirely losing usage of his arms. The Hidden Shadow Snake technique was stated to require handseals. There's not any sort of sign of anyone else "helping" him teleport. And no, there hasn't been any mention in all of Part two of Orochimaru's "ninjutsu" being sealed. The only mention have been of him not being able to use his arms by Suigetsu, which was clearly proven wrong by Orochimaru moving his arms right after.

An assumption. While it was stated that tons of times that half of his chakra is sealed forever. Nothing is there to say otherwise, so I win. I'm not about to reply to this anymore, because I can see, you hope to win these discussions by dragging it and hope people will just quite. Unless there is one statement that he regained the chakra that was sealed, that he regained his Yin half. It's over.

It's not an assumption. I showed you proof that what pertains to the Dead Demon seal has no effect upon the material world with Orochimaru. Minato sealing away half the chakra has no effect upon the other half of the chakra. It only applies to what Minato took, just like Minato's soul being sealed away had no effect upon the piece left behind in Naruto. I've got the evidence showing the Kyuubi's back to normal supporting me, so I've already won.

Again that's a different thing. This here is you, trying to force your opinion on me. What I did is, take the facts and say them in a simple way. It's just making what's long and hard to understand...short and simple. That's it.

Force my opinion? I have never forced anything. I merely simplified your own argument and showed why it was flawed.

It was stated that with Yin he formed them and with Yang he gave them life. That's it, they were created using Yin and Yang, and now they are living beings with their own Yin and Yang parts. Beside, you could take your opinion to Kishimoto as I said before, and ask him to change his mind. But as of now, He doesn't have his Yin half. Done.

Except they aren't living beings, they're chakra constructs, which has been a whole plot point. And as mentioned, Kishi did change it. He recon the whole "Yin" issue to being just regular chakra in Kushina's flashback.

My bad, I meant to say "Okay his legs are on his back\shoulder (whatever it is you said)" to end this as quickly as possible. That aside, Gamabunta is as big as the Kyuubi's upper half, and sense Gamabunta and the Shukaku are the same size...
And the Sand village's buildings are probably different, don't just compare things however you like. And once more, all this is just an assumption, because while it was clearly shown that he got smaller, to make stubborn people like you understand. Nothing about him returning to his original size was shown. It's over.

Gamabunta is bigger then just the Kyuubi's upper half, as shown by their relation to the fence around Konoha. The building in Suna aren't differently sized. We've seen the inside of their village and such, we know it's a normal village in that regard. And no, it's not an assumption. Cause not only would a half sized Kyuubi be smaller then the building of Konoha and the other giant creatures, but we were told by the Toads that Naruto was gonna master the Kyuubi's full chakra. Not to mention the current chapters where the Kyuubi created enough chakra to grant a cloak be passed out to thousands of ninjas.

How are we being the stubborn ones when the whole plot relies upon the Kyuubi being back to 100%? You honestly believe that Minato, who believed that the Kyuubi's power was the only thing that could deal with Obito, would risk depending only on half? Not to mention the whole plot with the Juubi depends upon a fully powered Kyuubi being taken.

And again, the concept of him using life force was never even hinted in the Manga. It's the same with the Bukijutsu thing. We both assumed something, because it seems rather obvious. And we both thought of them as facts. But you don't want to admit you're wrong at all, you just have to keep dragging this in hope I would give up or get bored. And again, you don't have to reply to what's over.

It was hinted, by his very body being weaken. I'm not assuming anything, nor am I wrong, because only life force usage would affect the body. Merely using chakra, even to the point of running out, doesn't affect the body as we've seen several times.

I didn't. You said they weren't fighting at their best, I said prove it, you said they were standing around. That's not what I meant by prove it. What I meant is a clear statement like Itachi not wanting to kill Sasuke on purpose or something like that. Not your view on the battle.

How is that not proving they were trying their best? No usage of their most powerful techniques, simply standing around, and using taijutsu that wasn't even strong enough to destroy a clone. That's not their best.

---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------

That doesn't matter. He said Hashirama is above the Kages combined. That's it. Done. I win this.

And he was shown below three of them with his own skills, therefore showing that being able to defeat someone does not make one stronger.

As I said it's logical to assume that. But not yet a fact.

How is it not yet a fact when the entire series has been built upon that concept and we outright have their words confirming it?

When I saw it in the in the wiki I thought it was stated somewhere. Also being an actual ninja art, made it more obvious to me. Still, if you don't want to take it then just don't. Calling me hypocrite for something I didn't know is not the right way to use the word "hypocrite". But you know what, yes it doesn't exist in the manga, so I'm not saying anything except that I got my informations wrong.

Perhaps you shouldn't be relying upon a wiki as a first source. There are dozens of real ninja arts that aren't involved in this series, so you shouldn't have assumed anything. And that's not the reason I referred to you as a hypocrite.

No. Typing or naming mistakes are far different from simply saying everything in the Databook is a lie.

Again, using the weapon itself was not stated or even hinted. The whole Jutsu involve him using his chakra with the weapon to create a more powerful form of attack and altering it's range.

Aside from there being dozens of examples proving the databook erroneous nature, you can't which part s the error, can you? Using the weapon was stated. I pointed out where it was stated in all the cases. And applying chakra to a weapon or tool is chakra flow, which isn't a specific technique but general ability.

I don't get what you're trying to say. He simply said he is a Yin element user, if it's like you say, he should've said "I'm Yin-Yang user specialized in Yin" or something like that.

... Yin and Yang are separate portions that are used together, like natural energy in regards to senjutsu. That doesn't mean they can't be used independently, again like natural energy in regards to Sage Mode.

No. It really has nothing at all to do with what I said. I said you assumed that " the toad was just generalizing, whereas Obito was telling a specific story", and then suddenly, out of nowhere, you just jumped in and brought me the whole Rinngan is the source of Jutsus. That's random as...It's just random. What does the Rinnegan being the source of all Jutsus, have to do with the toad and Tobi ?

... I gave you another piece of evidence showing that there was only five nature releases, stated to be the source of all ninjutsu. No mention of a sixth.

And in that very page, you see him saying once again you can't use your Jutsus. And about that snake Jutsu, where did he use seals ?
And that fire technique...who's to say he used it ? And even if he used it, here he used something similar without changing his body and at the time he was asking Tsunade to help cure his arm. So who knows what's the deal with him and the DDS. But by your logic, his Jutsus are still sealed, because you said newer information negated the old one.

Which doesn't change that Orochimaru was shown entirely losing usage of his arms. The Hidden Shadow Snake technique was stated to require handseals. There's not any sort of sign of anyone else "helping" him teleport. And no, there hasn't been any mention in all of Part two of Orochimaru's "ninjutsu" being sealed. The only mention have been of him not being able to use his arms by Suigetsu, which was clearly proven wrong by Orochimaru moving his arms right after.

An assumption. While it was stated that tons of times that half of his chakra is sealed forever. Nothing is there to say otherwise, so I win. I'm not about to reply to this anymore, because I can see, you hope to win these discussions by dragging it and hope people will just quite. Unless there is one statement that he regained the chakra that was sealed, that he regained his Yin half. It's over.

It's not an assumption. I showed you proof that what pertains to the Dead Demon seal has no effect upon the material world with Orochimaru. Minato sealing away half the chakra has no effect upon the other half of the chakra. It only applies to what Minato took, just like Minato's soul being sealed away had no effect upon the piece left behind in Naruto. I've got the evidence showing the Kyuubi's back to normal supporting me, so I've already won.

Again that's a different thing. This here is you, trying to force your opinion on me. What I did is, take the facts and say them in a simple way. It's just making what's long and hard to understand...short and simple. That's it.

Force my opinion? I have never forced anything. I merely simplified your own argument and showed why it was flawed.

It was stated that with Yin he formed them and with Yang he gave them life. That's it, they were created using Yin and Yang, and now they are living beings with their own Yin and Yang parts. Beside, you could take your opinion to Kishimoto as I said before, and ask him to change his mind. But as of now, He doesn't have his Yin half. Done.

Except they aren't living beings, they're chakra constructs, which has been a whole plot point. And as mentioned, Kishi did change it. He recon the whole "Yin" issue to being just regular chakra in Kushina's flashback.

My bad, I meant to say "Okay his legs are on his back\shoulder (whatever it is you said)" to end this as quickly as possible. That aside, Gamabunta is as big as the Kyuubi's upper half, and sense Gamabunta and the Shukaku are the same size...
And the Sand village's buildings are probably different, don't just compare things however you like. And once more, all this is just an assumption, because while it was clearly shown that he got smaller, to make stubborn people like you understand. Nothing about him returning to his original size was shown. It's over.

Gamabunta is bigger then just the Kyuubi's upper half, as shown by their relation to the fence around Konoha. The building in Suna aren't differently sized. We've seen the inside of their village and such, we know it's a normal village in that regard. And no, it's not an assumption. Cause not only would a half sized Kyuubi be smaller then the building of Konoha and the other giant creatures, but we were told by the Toads that Naruto was gonna master the Kyuubi's full chakra. Not to mention the current chapters where the Kyuubi created enough chakra to grant a cloak be passed out to thousands of ninjas.

How are we being the stubborn ones when the whole plot relies upon the Kyuubi being back to 100%? You honestly believe that Minato, who believed that the Kyuubi's power was the only thing that could deal with Obito, would risk depending only on half? Not to mention the whole plot with the Juubi depends upon a fully powered Kyuubi being taken.

And again, the concept of him using life force was never even hinted in the Manga. It's the same with the Bukijutsu thing. We both assumed something, because it seems rather obvious. And we both thought of them as facts. But you don't want to admit you're wrong at all, you just have to keep dragging this in hope I would give up or get bored. And again, you don't have to reply to what's over.

It was hinted, by his very body being weaken. I'm not assuming anything, nor am I wrong, because only life force usage would affect the body. Merely using chakra, even to the point of running out, doesn't affect the body as we've seen several times.

I didn't. You said they weren't fighting at their best, I said prove it, you said they were standing around. That's not what I meant by prove it. What I meant is a clear statement like Itachi not wanting to kill Sasuke on purpose or something like that. Not your view on the battle.

How is that not proving they were trying their best? No usage of their most powerful techniques, simply standing around, and using taijutsu that wasn't even strong enough to destroy a clone. That's not their best.

[Hakuteiken]

This thread is a perfect reflection of Naruto as a series and a character:
As a series, the posts get longer and longer (spamming S-rank jutsu and retconning).
As a character, same statements are recurrently appearing (Kage Bunshin or Rasengan, I leave it to your taste).

Back on topic #997:

That's the downside though. You can't take everything said as facts as Kishi isn't saying it as facts, but from the characters' point of view and what they know. It should also be based on action, among other stuff.

Words can always be proven wrong, actions are rarely ever proven wrong.

Can't argue with that.
If we are going to take Iruka's words of being Sandaime the strongest Hokage of all into account, we should consider the fact that there were people wishing for Minato's presence during the invasion, apparently believing Sandaime wouldn't be able to stop his pupil.
In the end, somehow, it wasn't the case and Sandaime held off Orochimaru, proving the doubters wrong.
Mabui concluded that Raikage and Tsunade wouldn't be able to handle Tenso no Jutsu (teleportation), but they went through it (with Tsunade's creation rebirth, perhaps, but that's not the point, it was still a wrong assessment).

That alone proves people in the manga universe are prone to be proven wrong immediately or over the time.

[KingOfNight]

And he was shown below three of them with his own skills, therefore showing that being able to defeat someone does not make one stronger.

Okay. But...he said that Hashirama is above them. So it really doesn't matter if he was defeated or not.

How is it not yet a fact when the entire series has been built upon that concept and we outright have their words confirming it?

How was the entire series built upon that anyway ? How ? And we don't have their word confirming anything. They didn't say " The Rinnegan is our goal in life".

Perhaps you shouldn't be relying upon a wiki as a first source. There are dozens of real ninja arts that aren't involved in this series, so you shouldn't have assumed anything. And that's not the reason I referred to you as a hypocrite.

Not a first source really, just came across it a while back and didn't bother checking if it was legit or not.

Aside from there being dozens of examples proving the databook erroneous nature, you can't which part s the error, can you? Using the weapon was stated. I pointed out where it was stated in all the cases. And applying chakra to a weapon or tool is chakra flow, which isn't a specific technique but general ability.

You think those "dozens" are mistakes, when they are not. It wasn't stated. It's just a technique classified as Ninjutsu\Taijutsu where ever the Mistake is. Using weapons alone was never stated. Applying chakra into the weapon, is also part of the technique along with extending the range, dealing stronger blows.

... Yin and Yang are separate portions that are used together, like natural energy in regards to senjutsu. That doesn't mean they can't be used independently, again like natural energy in regards to Sage Mode.

Okay fine. At least we agree on something.

... I gave you another piece of evidence showing that there was only five nature releases, stated to be the source of all ninjutsu. No mention of a sixth.

My bad, I didn't know you provided to the Five or six nature releases. Back to topic, it was stated there is 5 in the databook. But 6 where mentioned in the Manga twice, which is it ?

Which doesn't change that Orochimaru was shown entirely losing usage of his arms. The Hidden Shadow Snake technique was stated to require handseals. There's not any sort of sign of anyone else "helping" him teleport. And no, there hasn't been any mention in all of Part two of Orochimaru's "ninjutsu" being sealed. The only mention have been of him not being able to use his arms by Suigetsu, which was clearly proven wrong by Orochimaru moving his arms right after.

Yes but the point is, he can't use Ninjutsu. Orochimaru is always spitting out snakes without hand signs, along with many other weird techniques, like here and here. Suigetsu meant that he can't use Ninjutsu which is why he mentioned his arms being sealed by the DDS.

It's not an assumption. I showed you proof that what pertains to the Dead Demon seal has no effect upon the material world with Orochimaru. Minato sealing away half the chakra has no effect upon the other half of the chakra. It only applies to what Minato took, just like Minato's soul being sealed away had no effect upon the piece left behind in Naruto. I've got the evidence showing the Kyuubi's back to normal supporting me, so I've already won.

As I said, you're trying to win this by dragging it. Orochimaru's wasn't proven to have suffered no effect, while otherwise was stated. So I'm the one who already won. And again, you have no evidence of the Kyuubi being back to normal. And one last time, was it ever said that either Orochimaru or the Kyuubi regained their lost parts ? If so, bring me a direct statement similar to this and this. If I don't see that, then I won.

Force my opinion? I have never forced anything. I merely simplified your own argument and showed why it was flawed.

You simplified an opinion\argument, I simplified a fact. Two different things.

Except they aren't living beings, they're chakra constructs, which has been a whole plot point. And as mentioned, Kishi did change it. He recon the whole "Yin" issue to being just regular chakra in Kushina's flashback.

Okay, I'm gonna walk with you and say that he changed his mind (not really convinced but because the outcome won't change) and made the Yin issue into a regular chakra...Did he get it back ? No. In the end, be it Yin-Yang case or chakra case, he wasn't shown getting it back.

Gamabunta is bigger then just the Kyuubi's upper half, as shown by their relation to the fence around Konoha. The building in Suna aren't differently sized. We've seen the inside of their village and such, we know it's a normal village in that regard. And no, it's not an assumption. Cause not only would a half sized Kyuubi be smaller then the building of Konoha and the other giant creatures, but we were told by the Toads that Naruto was gonna master the Kyuubi's full chakra. Not to mention the current chapters where the Kyuubi created enough chakra to grant a cloak be passed out to thousands of ninjas.

Yeah, this is dragging for too long. Okay, he is bigger than his upper body (still not buying it, but it's the same as above), the building in Suna aren't different (don't even know where you got that). Where was it shown that he got back to his full size ? He was shown shrinking, unless you have place showing him getting back...you know how it is. The toad for the last time meant something different, don't know why you're pretending to not understand.

How are we being the stubborn ones when the whole plot relies upon the Kyuubi being back to 100%? You honestly believe that Minato, who believed that the Kyuubi's power was the only thing that could deal with Obito, would risk depending only on half? Not to mention the whole plot with the Juubi depends upon a fully powered Kyuubi being taken.

So now the plot revolves around the Kyuubi being back at 100% ? Does the plot always goes however you want it ? And how does it revolve around that anyway ?
Now that's a weird question. Do you think Minato would just go kill himself only to seal something that the Kyuubi would regenerate after taking a nap ? And say it's lost forever ?

It was hinted, by his very body being weaken. I'm not assuming anything, nor am I wrong, because only life force usage would affect the body. Merely using chakra, even to the point of running out, doesn't affect the body as we've seen several times.

Source ?

How is that not proving they were trying their best? No usage of their most powerful techniques, simply standing around, and using taijutsu that wasn't even strong enough to destroy a clone. That's not their best.

How do you know it's not because he killed them instantly ?

[M3J]

This thread is a perfect reflection of Naruto as a series and a character:
As a series, the posts get longer and longer (spamming S-rank jutsu and retconning).
As a character, same statements are recurrently appearing (Kage Bunshin or Rasengan, I leave it to your taste).

Back on topic #997:



Can't argue with that.
If we are going to take Iruka's words of being Sandaime the strongest Hokage of all into account, we should consider the fact that there were people wishing for Minato's presence during the invasion, apparently believing Sandaime wouldn't be able to stop his pupil.
In the end, somehow, it wasn't the case and Sandaime held off Orochimaru, proving the doubters wrong.
Mabui concluded that Raikage and Tsunade wouldn't be able to handle Tenso no Jutsu (teleportation), but they went through it (with Tsunade's creation rebirth, perhaps, but that's not the point, it was still a wrong assessment).

That alone proves people in the manga universe are prone to be proven wrong immediately or over the time.

Those were opinions though, and what Hiruzen and Anko said about Minato doesn't negate Iruka's statement that Hiruzen was the strongest, since we know Hiruzen's old age was the main reason why he feared he couldn't stop Orochimaru. Orochimaru himself said he thought Hiruzen would have been able to kill him ten years prior to their final fight.

[Hakuteiken]

Those were opinions though, and what Hiruzen and Anko said about Minato doesn't negate Iruka's statement that Hiruzen was the strongest, since we know Hiruzen's old age was the main reason why he feared he couldn't stop Orochimaru. Orochimaru himself said he thought Hiruzen would have been able to kill him ten years prior to their final fight.

Iruka also used something like "It is said that", as far as I could remember.
Never mind. What I tried to say here is what characters could think or state could be negated through the plot over the time. It wasn't Anko's statement that negated it, but it was rather the arrival of Madara and the continuously retconned skill level of Hashirama negated it. Anko's statement fearing Hiruzen's age were somehow negated by Hiruzen himself, who stopped Orochimaru's invasion move. I can't see why it couldn't be the same with Iruka or someone else.

Say, if Kishimoto decides to give Hiruzen a praise for the final time and reveals something big, big enough that could even stop Madara, Madara's words of only Hashirama being able to stop him would also be negated, right?
I believe such things can happen at the mangaka's will.

[M3J]

And it wouldn't be a plothole, retcon, or anything since words aren't always facts.

[Rikudou King]

Okay. But...he said that Hashirama is above them. So it really doesn't matter if he was defeated or not.

It does in proving that one doesn't need to be stronger to defeat another. Same as I pointed out before, with Hanzou and KinGin brothers being defeated by ninjas clearly weaker then them.

How was the entire series built upon that anyway ? How ? And we don't have their word confirming anything. They didn't say " The Rinnegan is our goal in life".

Um, the Rikudou Sennin and his legacy is not only the source of the entire series, but the source of the current situation. Both the main villains and heroes powers originated from it. Except their words do confirm wanting it, to learn everything and to discover the Rikudou Sennin's secrets. There's literally no other conclusion you can make from their words.

Not a first source really, just came across it a while back and didn't bother checking if it was legit or not.

That would make it the first source then, if it was the sole source.

You think those "dozens" are mistakes, when they are not. It wasn't stated. It's just a technique classified as Ninjutsu\Taijutsu where ever the Mistake is. Using weapons alone was never stated. Applying chakra into the weapon, is also part of the technique along with extending the range, dealing stronger blows.

They are canonically proven as mistakes, as mentioned countless times before. i.e. Chidori being stated as pure chakra and Amaterasu burning as hot as the sun. You keep claiming weapons along are never mentioned, despite the entries outright stating that creating the weapons were the whole technique.

My bad, I didn't know you provided to the Five or six nature releases. Back to topic, it was stated there is 5 in the databook. But 6 where mentioned in the Manga twice, which is it ?

Um, no. Six was not mentioned in the series twice. It was mentioned once, whereas there being the five main natures was mentioned several times in both the series and databooks.

Yes but the point is, he can't use Ninjutsu. Orochimaru is always spitting out snakes without hand signs, along with many other weird techniques, like here and here. Suigetsu meant that he can't use Ninjutsu which is why he mentioned his arms being sealed by the DDS.

Except he has been shown using ninjutsu, thereby negating that argument. Not to mention the lost of his arms was outright shown a consequence to the sealing. Unlike examples that involve his modified body, we're specifically talking about a technique that was shown requiring handsigns and arms to use. And Orochimaru wasn't always employing snakes without handsigns. He didn't do so in the Forest of Death. Same with summoning the gates. And Suigetsu says nothing about not using ninjutsu. He solely mentions the lack of arm usage, which was proven false.

As I said, you're trying to win this by dragging it. Orochimaru's wasn't proven to have suffered no effect, while otherwise was stated. So I'm the one who already won. And again, you have no evidence of the Kyuubi being back to normal. And one last time, was it ever said that either Orochimaru or the Kyuubi regained their lost parts ? If so, bring me a direct statement similar to this and this. If I don't see that, then I won.

No I'm not. Orochimaru was proven to gotten over the effects. I've showed him both using his arms and ninjutsus again, whereas you proven nothing to the contrary. And I showed evidence that the Kyuubi was back to normal. I showed you the toads stating that Naruto was gonna take the Kyuubi's full power. You keep bring up the same statement and ignoring that it has no barring upon the unsealed portion. Heck, I even pointed out how Minato being sealed forever didn't affect the part of him left in Naruto nor Orochimaru being sealed within the Totsuka Blade affected his other consciousnesses.

You simplified an opinion\argument, I simplified a fact. Two different things.

It wasn't an opinion, it was an actual fact. Neither Darui or Mifune are Kage level, yet they defeated opponent stronger then Kages. This is a simple fact.

Okay, I'm gonna walk with you and say that he changed his mind (not really convinced but because the outcome won't change) and made the Yin issue into a regular chakra...Did he get it back ? No. In the end, be it Yin-Yang case or chakra case, he wasn't shown getting it back.

The Kyuubi wouldn't have to "get back' the part sealed to simply regenerate back the portion lost. And that's the point, which you seem to be missing. The sealing wouldn't affect the Kyuubi's natural ability to generate more chakra, as it has shown frequently.

Yeah, this is dragging for too long. Okay, he is bigger than his upper body (still not buying it, but it's the same as above), the building in Suna aren't different (don't even know where you got that). Where was it shown that he got back to his full size ? He was shown shrinking, unless you have place showing him getting back...you know how it is. The toad for the last time meant something different, don't know why you're pretending to not understand.

Yeah, it was shown shrinking to half it's size, which would have made it smaller then the other Bijuus, yet we clearly see it's back to equal size in the current war. And you keep saying that, which it's not true. What "other thing" could full power have meant?

So now the plot revolves around the Kyuubi being back at 100% ? Does the plot always goes however you want it ? And how does it revolve around that anyway ?
Now that's a weird question. Do you think Minato would just go kill himself only to seal something that the Kyuubi would regenerate after taking a nap ? And say it's lost forever ?

Um, yeah. The current plot is Madara and Obito attempting to revive the complete Juubi, which requires the whole Kyuubi, and the Alliance attempting to prevent them from doing so by keeping them from taking the Kyuubi, while Naruto has begun to live up to the legacy the Rikudou Sennin left behind for someone reuniting all the Bijuus back together. And yeah, considering his stated plan was to have Naruto master the Kyuubi's power, the only thing he believed was capable of defeating Obito. Especially since he didn't seal half the Kyuubi's chakra because of Naruto, but because that was all he could manage to take within himself. Clearly if he could have taken more, he would have.

Source ?

Itachi, Kakashi, and Tsunade have all been shown running out of chakra and nothing of the like was shown happening to their bodies.

How do you know it's not because he killed them instantly ?

Um, because he didn't kill them instantly. That's kind of the point, that the fight wasn't fast but slow, with them mostly standing around doing nothing.

[KingOfNight]

It does in proving that one doesn't need to be stronger to defeat another. Same as I pointed out before, with Hanzou and KinGin brothers being defeated by ninjas clearly weaker then them.

Defeat doesn't matter here, it's a statement that Hashirama > Kages. Done.

Um, the Rikudou Sennin and his legacy is not only the source of the entire series, but the source of the current situation. Both the main villains and heroes powers originated from it. Except their words do confirm wanting it, to learn everything and to discover the Rikudou Sennin's secrets. There's literally no other conclusion you can make from their words.

The whole series does not revolve around that. They want to know learn everything and discover the RS secret, but the Rinnegan is not his secret, at least not the only one. Unless I see a statement they want his secret, then please. Cut it out. If they wanted the Rinnegan they should've went for Nagato instead of Itachi\Sasuke.

That would make it the first source then, if it was the sole source.

When I say it's not my first source, then it's not. One of them though.

They are canonically proven as mistakes, as mentioned countless times before. i.e. Chidori being stated as pure chakra and Amaterasu burning as hot as the sun. You keep claiming weapons along are never mentioned, despite the entries outright stating that creating the weapons were the whole technique.

That doesn't prove anything really. Does those "proves" say that the databook is mistaking or if it's negating it directly ? The Chidori was never said to be "pure chakra" and none said that Amaterasu isn't as hot as the sun. It does burn slowly though. Outright stating that creating the weapon is the the whole technique ? Where are you reading ? Fusing the chakra with the weapon and making a different use of it is the Jutsu itself. The weapon use was not mentioned.

Um, no. Six was not mentioned in the series twice. It was mentioned once, whereas there being the five main natures was mentioned several times in both the series and databooks.

No, it was stated twice. By Jiraya and Yamato. So again, which is it ? By the way, the Kekkie Genkai's are also chakra Natures. Five are mentioned in the Databook as "Basic" only. Yin-Yang and Kekkei Genkais are also chakra natures, but they probably don't fall under the "Basic" category.


About the Orochimaru's hands and the Kyuubi topic. I didn't see the proof I asked for, so I'm just gonna ignore it. Dragging this is useless. There are several, SEVERAL, statements that those two haven't regained what's sealed in the DDS. You don't have any proof saying otherwise. That means everything you said is an assumption. Not trying to anger you, but I won.

It wasn't an opinion, it was an actual fact. Neither Darui or Mifune are Kage level, yet they defeated opponent stronger then Kages. This is a simple fact.

Did I argue about weaker people not being able to defeat stronger people ? If so, then remind me when.

The Kyuubi wouldn't have to "get back' the part sealed to simply regenerate back the portion lost. And that's the point, which you seem to be missing. The sealing wouldn't affect the Kyuubi's natural ability to generate more chakra, as it has shown frequently.

Your opinion. Half of him was said to be sealed forever. Is there a similar statement saying otherwise ?

Yeah, it was shown shrinking to half it's size, which would have made it smaller then the other Bijuus, yet we clearly see it's back to equal size in the current war. And you keep saying that, which it's not true. What "other thing" could full power have meant?

You're assuming that he should be smaller than the other Bijuus. The other thing is, the toad said, the seal was designed so that a tiny bit of the Kyuubi's chakra would leak, but should the seal be opened, it's full chakra would come out. This has nothing to do with how much chakra the Kyuubi has, but how much would leak.

Um, yeah. The current plot is Madara and Obito attempting to revive the complete Juubi, which requires the whole Kyuubi, and the Alliance attempting to prevent them from doing so by keeping them from taking the Kyuubi, while Naruto has begun to live up to the legacy the Rikudou Sennin left behind for someone reuniting all the Bijuus back together. And yeah, considering his stated plan was to have Naruto master the Kyuubi's power, the only thing he believed was capable of defeating Obito. Especially since he didn't seal half the Kyuubi's chakra because of Naruto, but because that was all he could manage to take within himself. Clearly if he could have taken more, he would have.

Emmm...No. It wasn't stated they need the Kyuubi at full power to summon the Juubi. They summoned him already without the Kyuubi or Hachibi's full power. And your answer is random. What does him killing himself for no reason have to do with Naruto controlling the Kyuubi ? If the chakra would be regenerated immediately then why would he kill himself ? He might have just sealed the Kyuubi's full chakra in Naruto in the first place.

Itachi, Kakashi, and Tsunade have all been shown running out of chakra and nothing of the like was shown happening to their bodies.

Still doesn't say he used his life force, or that using your life force would make your body age like that. In fact, Itachi according to you was using his life force, he didn't age like that or become skinny.

Um, because he didn't kill them instantly. That's kind of the point, that the fight wasn't fast but slow, with them mostly standing around doing nothing.

And you made it a fact that they weren't at their best ?

[Rikudou King]

Defeat doesn't matter here, it's a statement that Hashirama > Kages. Done.

Then Sasuke is > the Kages and sannins, since he has the statements attesting to it too.

The whole series does not revolve around that. They want to know learn everything and discover the RS secret, but the Rinnegan is not his secret, at least not the only one. Unless I see a statement they want his secret, then please. Cut it out. If they wanted the Rinnegan they should've went for Nagato instead of Itachi\Sasuke.

The series does revolve around that. Without it, there would be no Bijuus, no Akatsuki, no Uchiha/Senju rivalry, no ninjutsu at all. Every single current event started due to Madara's actions of attaining the Rinnegan. And I gave you said statement of that very thing, here.

...Why would they go after a weaken Nagato and have to deal with huge chakra cost instead of grabbing a stronger Uchiha and not having any chakra cost?

When I say it's not my first source, then it's not. One of them though.

Since that word was never used in the series, databook, or anime, then clearly there was only a single source you could have gotten it from.

That doesn't prove anything really. Does those "proves" say that the databook is mistaking or if it's negating it directly ? The Chidori was never said to be "pure chakra" and none said that Amaterasu isn't as hot as the sun. It does burn slowly though. Outright stating that creating the weapon is the the whole technique ? Where are you reading ? Fusing the chakra with the weapon and making a different use of it is the Jutsu itself. The weapon use was not mentioned.

How does it not prove anything when we got direct prove that it's wrong/been reconned? It was said to be nothing but chakra, which was why the chakra being visible was so impressive, and Amateruas's databook entry outright states it burns as hot as the sun. And as mentioned, chakra flow is not an individual technique. Naruto, Sasuke, Kirabi, Itachi, and Kakashi all showed this. And you need better reading comprehension...

"Asuma infuses his brass knuckles - his weapons of choice - with this jutsu and goes into battle"
"For a heavy price in chakra, one obtains the strongest of spears, an item of absolute sturdiness. It is the crystallization of the blood and skill of a clan who'd worked slaughter into its finest art."
"Tsuru attacks, bending and twisting the spinal column like a veritable whip."
"Drawing a Bone Pulse-created blade of bone, and unleashing a disorderly succession of stabs at a blinding speed...!"

No, it was stated twice. By Jiraya and Yamato. So again, which is it ? By the way, the Kekkie Genkai's are also chakra Natures. Five are mentioned in the Databook as "Basic" only. Yin-Yang and Kekkei Genkais are also chakra natures, but they probably don't fall under the "Basic" category.

Yamato never mention there being six release, in fact he was the one who made it clear that Yin-Yang was not included with the others. Bloodline limits are based upon a combination of the basic five, which is the point.

About the Orochimaru's hands and the Kyuubi topic. I didn't see the proof I asked for, so I'm just gonna ignore it. Dragging this is useless. There are several, SEVERAL, statements that those two haven't regained what's sealed in the DDS. You don't have any proof saying otherwise. That means everything you said is an assumption. Not trying to anger you, but I won.

Don't see the prove? Then you're purposely ignoring the proof I gave you. The one statement about Orochimaru was clearly shown false, and there's no a single statement saying the Kyuubi wasn't back to 100%. In fact, I gave you a statement informing us that the Kyuubi had it's full power back. The fact that you're trying to claim to be right while openly ignoring the very evidence you asked for says plenty.

Did I argue about weaker people not being able to defeat stronger people ? If so, then remind me when.

Yeah you did, you're whole argument about Sarutobi supposedly being stronger was built upon that.

Your opinion. Half of him was said to be sealed forever. Is there a similar statement saying otherwise ?

And that has no barring upon the unsealed half. Not a single statement anywhere in the series suggesting the Kyuubi didn't regenerate it back.

You're assuming that he should be smaller than the other Bijuus. The other thing is, the toad said, the seal was designed so that a tiny bit of the Kyuubi's chakra would leak, but should the seal be opened, it's full chakra would come out. This has nothing to do with how much chakra the Kyuubi has, but how much would leak.

If it's of even size and was cut in half, then logically it would be smaller then the others Bijuus. No, the Toads said that opening the seal would allow Naruto to tap into the Kyuubi's full power, possibly allowing the Kyuubi to be reborn. Nothing about "what would come out" as you;re attempting to claim. Heck, we outright saw that the seal didn't have to be open for the Kyuubi to flood Naruto with it's chakra, as shown during Pain's invasion.

Emmm...No. It wasn't stated they need the Kyuubi at full power to summon the Juubi. They summoned him already without the Kyuubi or Hachibi's full power. And your answer is random. What does him killing himself for no reason have to do with Naruto controlling the Kyuubi ? If the chakra would be regenerated immediately then why would he kill himself ? He might have just sealed the Kyuubi's full chakra in Naruto in the first place.

To summon the complete Juubi, they need the full Hachibi and Kyuubi. The current Juubi isn't complete... My answer isn't random. He outright mentions sealing the complete Kyuubi isn't possible.

Still doesn't say he used his life force, or that using your life force would make your body age like that. In fact, Itachi according to you was using his life force, he didn't age like that or become skinny.

Life force is the only other source on can draw upon to fuel techniques. And Itachi didn't die from using Susanoo, he died from running out of chakra.

And you made it a fact that they weren't at their best ?

I'm not the one who made it a fact, Kishi did by greatly expanding upon what they were truly capable of.

[KingOfNight]

Then Sasuke is > the Kages and sannins, since he has the statements attesting to it too.

There is no such thing.

The series does revolve around that. Without it, there would be no Bijuus, no Akatsuki, no Uchiha/Senju rivalry, no ninjutsu at all. Every single current event started due to Madara's actions of attaining the Rinnegan. And I gave you said statement of that very thing, here.

...Why would they go after a weaken Nagato and have to deal with huge chakra cost instead of grabbing a stronger Uchiha and not having any chakra cost?

That and having the whole series revolving around the RS are two entirely different things. And he said he wanted to learn his secret, that's it. The Rinnegan is not his secret. Unless you have a page or a source saying they sought the Rinnegan, then it's an assumption, and with that I win.

They could just take his eyes.

Since that word was never used in the series, databook, or anime, then clearly there was only a single source you could have gotten it from.

I misunderstood. I thought you meant the first source of all my informations is the Wiki. But if it's only about that term, then yes, I did take it from the Wiki.

How does it not prove anything when we got direct prove that it's wrong/been reconned? It was said to be nothing but chakra, which was why the chakra being visible was so impressive, and Amateruas's databook entry outright states it burns as hot as the sun. And as mentioned, chakra flow is not an individual technique. Naruto, Sasuke, Kirabi, Itachi, and Kakashi all showed this. And you need better reading comprehension...

They weren't proven as mistakes, and even if they were, are we to make everything in the Databook, a lie ? It was not said that it's nothing but Chakra, and nothing about it being visible is an impressive feat. I didn't argue that it does not burn as hot as the sun, simply said it takes too long to burn. When did I say chakra flow is an individual skill ?

I think you need it much more than me...

And why did you bring me what was said about Kimimaro ? Are you hoping to win by giving me an answer that has nothing to do with the question ? And once again, nothing about ASUMA'S use of weapon was stated. Or if using a weapon is Taijutsu for that matter. I don't even understand why I bother, when Taijutsu itself means "Body technique" and when it's in real life Ninja means, empty handed combat style.

Yamato never mention there being six release, in fact he was the one who made it clear that Yin-Yang was not included with the others. Bloodline limits are based upon a combination of the basic five, which is the point.

But they are still chakra elements, even if they are a combination of others. And if Yin and Yang is not a chakra element, then what is it exactly ? We have the second Mizukage clearly saying he is a Yin element user, so it's an element, be them together or not.

Don't see the prove? Then you're purposely ignoring the proof I gave you. The one statement about Orochimaru was clearly shown false, and there's no a single statement saying the Kyuubi wasn't back to 100%. In fact, I gave you a statement informing us that the Kyuubi had it's full power back. The fact that you're trying to claim to be right while openly ignoring the very evidence you asked for says plenty.

Now I'm sure you have no idea what's the difference between Proofs and opinions. And again, it simply says how desperate you're. There is a actually several statements about that, you're just ignoring them. And again, you're lying. You never gave a statement of him regenerating his power.

Yeah you did, you're whole argument about Sarutobi supposedly being stronger was built upon that.

Ah...no. I didn't. And it was not built upon that. You need to check back before spouting nonsense.

And that has no barring upon the unsealed half. Not a single statement anywhere in the series suggesting the Kyuubi didn't regenerate it back.

Okay, I win. You don't have a proof to back up your claim. I do.

If it's of even size and was cut in half, then logically it would be smaller then the others Bijuus. No, the Toads said that opening the seal would allow Naruto to tap into the Kyuubi's full power, possibly allowing the Kyuubi to be reborn. Nothing about "what would come out" as you;re attempting to claim. Heck, we outright saw that the seal didn't have to be open for the Kyuubi to flood Naruto with it's chakra, as shown during Pain's invasion.

It's not of even size. Tap or not, doesn't change what the toad says. Nothing about what comes out ? Do you know what "leak" mean ? If you do, then you're more desperate than I thought.

To summon the complete Juubi, they need the full Hachibi and Kyuubi. The current Juubi isn't complete... My answer isn't random. He outright mentions sealing the complete Kyuubi isn't possible.

Yes, but he's out. Sure not complete, but the fact that he's out without the QB and Hachibi just destroys your point. And your answer is beyond random, he said he can't seal the Kyuubi completely, what does that have to do with the original question ? Why would he kill himself to seal something that would regenerate in a while ?

Life force is the only other source on can draw upon to fuel techniques. And Itachi didn't die from using Susanoo, he died from running out of chakra.

Yes, but if Susanoo draws upon life force, he should have suffered the same thing. And we don't know what they need to draw upon their life force in order to fuel an attack.

I'm not the one who made it a fact, Kishi did by greatly expanding upon what they were truly capable of.

Not being at their best and not showing everything are two different things, Mr."You need better reading comprehension".