The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[Rikudou King]

He was never said to have more potential than Itachi, manipulating Amaterasu, doesn't mean he's stronger. He was never said to be stronger than Nagato, he only said "even if he becomes stronger than Nagato".

Itachi and Orochimaru did call Sasuke out for having more potential, and the Enton is an example of that. And as I said, he was implied to be, with Obito preparing Sasuke to connect with the Gedo Mazo and him speeding up his plans to achieve the Moon Eye plan soon. There was also Naruto, who admitted that he couldn't have defeated Sasuke despite beating Pain. So by Naruto's own words: Sasuke > Naruto > Pain. Now that's the logic you were using.

And never had an answer.

Not missed, forgot. Still don't see how that helps the original argument (that they sought the Rinnegan.)

Um, yeah you did: the Rinnegan.

Because we have them researching Mokuton, attempting to get an actual Uchiha body, and speaking of getting the Rinnegan and becoming the next Sage...

It was never said to be just chakra. Nor was anything about it being visible said. I never argued that the Amaterasu wasn't as hot as the sun, simply said it burns slowly. His bones are part of his body. I know, but the technique name haven't change, or the fact that it uses fire.

It was called chakra, which elemental techniques aren't called. They're referred to by their nature, since they are being literally transformed into that element. And it was remarked about being visible. Once again, burning slowly would not negate it burning as hot as the sun. Heck, it would basically be comparable to receiving a sunburn. Kimimaro's bones were apart of his body, before he literally removed them to employ them as weapons. Doesn't change that the mechanics are completely different.

Which is why I said they aren't basic.

You were saying that, actually.

So I take it you aren't planning to give up ? He never used a mysterious Jutsu, and he said that once he get his arms back from the Shinigami, then he will be able to use Jutsus again. So they were sealed. I win this, quite being stubborn.

Already explain why I said he used something, and once again, you're making things up. He did not say getting his arms back would let him use techniques, he said it would allow him to use one technique, Edo Tensei. And considering the argument was about Orochimaru getting around the sealing to regain usage of his arms and techniques, which I proved with multiple examples, you're the one being stubborn.

Opinion.

Um, it's not opinion. I can literally show that Sarutobi was never called outright stronger, and that Hashirama's real power was a huge mystery to everyone.

Nope. I have a proof, you don't. I win.

You haven't shown a single bit of proof proving anything happen to the actual Kyuubi, whereas I showed several examples about it's being back to normal.

You never gave proofs to anything. He said that his chakra will leak. You're seriously arguing against the most obvious of facts ?

Yes I did. The Kyuubi's size, Orochimaru's arms, Minato and KinGin brothers, and the toad's comment. I gave you a bunch of proof. And as I said, nothing about any leaking was claimed for fully opening the seal. Opening the seal equal full access, as shown by Naruto actually doing it along with the incident with Deva Path, which is why it was so dangerous.

So you admit the Kyuubi has only half it's power ?

Are you just skimming this argument? I never disagreed that Minato originally took half the Kyuubi's power. The point was that while Minato took that half, he did nothing to prevent the Kyuubi from eventually recreating the lost chakra.

How did you assume that he has to run out of chakra before using his life force ? It's good for you because you know when you're making assumptions.

When did I ever say that? Itachi didn't die from Susanoo, he died from implanting Amaterasu in Sasuke, after he had already deactivated Susanoo. Everything I said has been shown in the series itself. Sasuke showed the whole cells=life force during the summit.

Being brainless simply stops them from using their emotions, they still remained at full power. All that you said is them not showing everything they've got. It's not that they weren't at their best.

It also stopped them from thinking tactically and employing their techniques on their own. If they couldn't think like they normally did, plan like they normally did, or fight like they normally did, how exactly were they fighting at their best?

Well, I'll be fair with the argument here. I believe it was Itachi himself who saw more of a potential in Sasuke. Sasuke had the bigger chakra reserves out of the two. Comparing their Genjutsu isn't fair, since Itachi had more years to train, and to me, he was the real genius out of the siblings.
About Nagato, you are right. That was just pointing out a potential development over the time. Never it was stated anything to suggest Sasuke came anywhere close to Nagato.

Don't forget Orochimaru too. And I said Sasuke with EMS was implied to become stronger then Nagato, since Obito was working hard to get him on his side and strong enough before declaring the war, where he planned on finishing the Moon Eye plan. In addition, Naruto told the other Konoha 11 that he couldn't have defeated Sasuke after Kiba brought up him kicking Pain's ass as a reason why Sasuke shouldn't have stood a chance.

Obito claimed that if he didn't hold a few secrets from itachi, the amaterasu trap of itachi could kill him. Obito was talking to itachi's fail safe method and not that itachi can kill him head on. There's a big difference between the two.

And if itachi really want to kill sasuke with his amaterasu, he can shoot that directly to his face. The amaterasu was suppose to hit anyone on sight, but itachi didn't do that, and sasuke's speed isn't amazing enough to avoid being hit by amaterasu. So itachi was clearly holding back for sasuke's sake.

Itachi's fail safe was Amaterasu being shot, which Itachi was fully capable of preforming himself. And once Amaterasu is used, Itachi had no more control over it. So it wasn't as if he could have slowed the flames down to make it easier for Sasuke. Also, how isn't Sasuke's speed amazing enough? Sasuke is faster then regular Ee and has the prediction advantage of the Sharingan, which as we saw with the Edo Jinchuuriki, can easily make up the difference.

[marshall313]

Itachi and Orochimaru did call Sasuke out for having more potential, and the Enton is an example of that. And as I said, he was implied to be, with Obito preparing Sasuke to connect with the Gedo Mazo and him speeding up his plans to achieve the Moon Eye plan soon. There was also Naruto, who admitted that he couldn't have defeated Sasuke despite beating Pain. So by Naruto's own words: Sasuke > Naruto > Pain. Now that's the logic you were using.

Um, yeah you did: the Rinnegan.

Because we have them researching Mokuton, attempting to get an actual Uchiha body, and speaking of getting the Rinnegan and becoming the next Sage...

It was called chakra, which elemental techniques aren't called. They're referred to by their nature, since they are being literally transformed into that element. And it was remarked about being visible. Once again, burning slowly would not negate it burning as hot as the sun. Heck, it would basically be comparable to receiving a sunburn. Kimimaro's bones were apart of his body, before he literally removed them to employ them as weapons. Doesn't change that the mechanics are completely different.

You were saying that, actually.

Already explain why I said he used something, and once again, you're making things up. He did not say getting his arms back would let him use techniques, he said it would allow him to use one technique, Edo Tensei. And considering the argument was about Orochimaru getting around the sealing to regain usage of his arms and techniques, which I proved with multiple examples, you're the one being stubborn.

Um, it's not opinion. I can literally show that Sarutobi was never called outright stronger, and that Hashirama's real power was a huge mystery to everyone.

You haven't shown a single bit of proof proving anything happen to the actual Kyuubi, whereas I showed several examples about it's being back to normal.

Yes I did. The Kyuubi's size, Orochimaru's arms, Minato and KinGin brothers, and the toad's comment. I gave you a bunch of proof. And as I said, nothing about any leaking was claimed for fully opening the seal. Opening the seal equal full access, as shown by Naruto actually doing it along with the incident with Deva Path, which is why it was so dangerous.

Are you just skimming this argument? I never disagreed that Minato originally took half the Kyuubi's power. The point was that while Minato took that half, he did nothing to prevent the Kyuubi from eventually recreating the lost chakra.

When did I ever say that? Itachi didn't die from Susanoo, he died from implanting Amaterasu in Sasuke, after he had already deactivated Susanoo. Everything I said has been shown in the series itself. Sasuke showed the whole cells=life force during the summit.

It also stopped them from thinking tactically and employing their techniques on their own. If they couldn't think like they normally did, plan like they normally did, or fight like they normally did, how exactly were they fighting at their best?

Don't forget Orochimaru too. And I said Sasuke with EMS was implied to become stronger then Nagato, since Obito was working hard to get him on his side and strong enough before declaring the war, where he planned on finishing the Moon Eye plan. In addition, Naruto told the other Konoha 11 that he couldn't have defeated Sasuke after Kiba brought up him kicking Pain's ass as a reason why Sasuke shouldn't have stood a chance.

Itachi's fail safe was Amaterasu being shot, which Itachi was fully capable of preforming himself. And once Amaterasu is used, Itachi had no more control over it. So it wasn't as if he could have slowed the flames down to make it easier for Sasuke. Also, how isn't Sasuke's speed amazing enough? Sasuke is faster then regular Ee and has the prediction advantage of the Sharingan, which as we saw with the Edo Jinchuuriki, can easily make up the difference.

Oh, come on RK. Here you go again. Sasuke's speed is faster than regular Ee's speed? A cloakless Ee? Stop comparing sasuke's speed to Ee's speed. They're far from the same nor they're comparable. Sasuke's prediction advantage of the sharingan can't save him from itachi's amaterasu. Sharingan can't predict the amaterasu if sasuke doesn't have any special ability like raikage's cloak.

But itachi performing himself is entirely different from the fail safe method. Because I doubt itachi would caught obito off guard nor he had the tools to defeat obito's intangible jutsu. It seems obito knew itachi's caliber. And he knows what the MS ability is capable of.

So saying that itachi can defeat obito is a wishful thinking. He can't, because there's a huge difference between an uchiha to uchiha+senju.

[Rikudou King]

Considering we were outright shown Sasuke keeping up and overtaking Ee in speed, they're clearly comparable. Naruto's performance against Ee proves that. And exactly why can't the Sharingan predict Amaterasu? Where was such a rule displayed? We see Sasuke dodging it by sight and no sign of it moving any slower then normal.

The only difference is how it would be triggered. Clones, genjutsu, his intelligences... Itachi would have plenty of means to catch Obito off guard. And we already know the weakness of Obito's technique. If geniuses like Kakashi and Minato could figure it out, why would Itachi have any trouble doing likewise? Itachi has not only the Totsuka Blade to instantly end him, but the trap Izanami. Two things that are basically instant winners. And honestly, there's not much difference except for the inclusion of Mokuton, which is a minor annoyance vs Susanoo.

[Uchiha_Blood]

How are Sasuke, Itachi, Obito and everyone else pertinent in a thread about Hiruzen and Madara?
Stick to the topic please

[Hakuteiken]

Don't forget Orochimaru too. And I said Sasuke with EMS was implied to become stronger then Nagato, since Obito was working hard to get him on his side and strong enough before declaring the war, where he planned on finishing the Moon Eye plan. In addition, Naruto told the other Konoha 11 that he couldn't have defeated Sasuke after Kiba brought up him kicking Pain's ass as a reason why Sasuke shouldn't have stood a chance.

Ah, that, too. I don't know. Perhaps Obito was thinking Sasuke could somehow awaken the Rinnegan with his help. We can never truly measure this, since this is all hypothetic, but the only time we saw Nagato in action, he was doing quite a good job against the team of Naruto, Bee and Itachi, until Itachi's intellect overwhelmed Kabuto's, who was controlling Nagato's movements and Nagato was still lacking mobility at that point.
So, if we are to say EMS Sasuke was supposed to surpass Pain, I'm on the board. But I really doubt he could surpass prime Nagato (that is, without acquiring the Rinnegan)

How are Sasuke, Itachi, Obito and everyone else pertinent in a thread about Hiruzen and Madara?
Stick to the topic please

Who is this Hiruzen guy

[Uchiha_Blood]

Who is this Hiruzen guy

An old fart whose death Kishi just made meaningless

[Hakuteiken]

An old fart whose death Kishi just made meaningless

And here, this thread was just about to die
Honestly, I don't know how we have come to this stage, either. I can't read these posts anymore, they are huge chain posts. It is like you need a Sharingan to read and decipher this. My posts are no different, anyway.

Anyway, there is only one point related to the Hokage fight back in Part I and that's the brainless puppets argument. I have already sided with Rikudou on this, but there is no way to be sure of how Kishimoto will handle a possible fighting scene for the Edo Hokage now. Kabuto's puppet Kage were fighting much better than Shodaime and Nidaime did in Part I, so, he can take a shortcut and let them vanish after a brief chat or else he'll definitely need to bring an explanation. Oh wait, he doesn't need it. This is Orochimaru's version of Edo Tensei, so, he could just say it's still inferior to the one Kabuto used and Shodaime, Nidaime and Sandaime will all be Chuunin level, while fanboyism will save Minato to a Jounin level at least.

[Uchiha_Blood]

And here, this thread was just about to die
Honestly, I don't know how we have come to this stage, either. I can't read these posts anymore, they are huge chain posts. It is like you need a Sharingan to read and decipher this. My posts are no different, anyway.

Anyway, there is only one point related to the Hokage fight back in Part I and that's the brainless puppets argument. I have already sided with Rikudou on this, but there is no way to be sure of how Kishimoto will handle a possible fighting scene for the Edo Hokage now. Kabuto's puppet Kage were fighting much better than Shodaime and Nidaime did in Part I, so, he can take a shortcut and let them vanish after a brief chat or else he'll definitely need to bring an explanation. Oh wait, he doesn't need it. This is Orochimaru's version of Edo Tensei, so, he could just say it's still inferior to the one Kabuto used and Shodaime, Nidaime and Sandaime will all be Chuunin level, while fanboyism will save Minato to a Jounin level at least.

Agreed this is the last chance for Kishi to bring Hiruzen up to Part 2 standards, even though imo he is aware he's playing with fire:
the Hokages are loved characters, incredibly important plot-wise and they have among them the creator of Edo Tensei ( which should know how to escape from it, something Kabuto and by proxy Oro shouldn't know ), meaning he won't probably risk using them in the war.
What's more, all four combined are a force too great to unleash in the manga, they are positively the strongest team in all the Verse.
Imagine:

Hashirama + Hiruzen's ability to multiply kunai/shurikens for Hiraishin + Minato + Tobirama's whatever was his forte apart from Suitons

Pretty sure even Lord Madara would feel threatened, Rin'negan and all

[Hakuteiken]

And plot wise, it would be excellent if the Hokage were the one to stop Madara. It all started out of Madara's hatred for Konoha. Time to settle it for good now. They are all dead and they are all alive.
*Madara takes out one of his eyes and throws him at Hashirama. "Take it." he says, "Now, we are equal. Almost. If you want to get a statue of my cells in your chest, I could give them, too, you know."
Seriously, this is probably the last chance to make all these a bit more reasonable.

[Uchiha_Blood]

And plot wise, it would be excellent if the Hokage were the one to stop Madara. It all started out of Madara's hatred for Konoha. Time to settle it for good now. They are all dead and they are all alive.
*Madara takes out one of his eyes and throws him at Hashirama. "Take it." he says, "Now, we are equal. Almost. If you want to get a statue of my cells in your chest, I could give them, too, you know."
Seriously, this is probably the last chance to make all these a bit more reasonable.

It is true that the Hokages are the only ones able to be a serious threat to Madara, Juubi or not Juubi, but, I don't know, it would go against the very message this manga wants to give:
the new generation surpasses the next.
If the Hokages would save the day, it would mean that the next generation is no good, and I don't think Kishi wants to convey that. At the same time, this war was all about fanservice, so the Kages showing sick new moves would go with the flow.

Damn I would lose it if Hiruzen starts beating Madara around though

[shahdan]

Sasuke did know full well of the MS risks. He was the one who decided to spam it left and right. It's his fault to go blind in such a short time. The comparsion is fair in every sense of the word. We have two MS users who went blind over the course of their life.
One of them showed feats with a full formed Susanoo, a perfect Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. The other one only showed feats with an armored version of Susanoo, a Tsukuyomi/MS Genjutsu, which was nowhere near Itachi's level and only trumps in excellent usage of Amaterasu. Not only that, Itachi also can use Izanami.


The fact remains that Itachi can hold back and not kill his opponent.

Sasuke was aware of the repercussions? I don’t remember anything of the sort. Unless you don’t actually have a page to support this, I’ll hold on to this opinion. Itachi never had a full Sussano, he only had a complete version which Sasuke jumped to within an hour, including his usage of arrows. This isn’t potential? You have got to be kidding me.

No he can’t. He can switch off the genjustu, but nowhere in the manga is it ever alluded that Itachi can somehow use a milder version of the moon genjustu. He can control the fabrics of space/time and sensations within the genjutsu. For example, for Sasuke he opted for mental torture and for Kakashi he went for Physical torture sensations. Since Sasuke can overcome it easily, this advantage of his is lost.

[Delbi]

It is true that the Hokages are the only ones able to be a serious threat to Madara, Juubi or not Juubi, but, I don't know, it would go against the very message this manga wants to give:
the new generation surpasses the next.
If the Hokages would save the day, it would mean that the next generation is no good, and I don't think Kishi wants to convey that. At the same time, this war was all about fanservice, so the Kages showing sick new moves would go with the flow.

Damn I would lose it if Hiruzen starts beating Madara around though

It is entirely likely that the Hokages will be used later after all this ish with Madara and the Juubi is done for.

If Orochimaru does indeed become the big bad, the 4 Hokages would act as his 4 Horsemen of Apocalypse essentially. I don't forsee them going anywhere anytime soon permanently at least, they are far too valuable.

[Uchiha_Blood]

It is entirely likely that the Hokages will be used later after all this ish with Madara and the Juubi is done for.

If Orochimaru does indeed become the big bad, the 4 Hokages would act as his 4 Horsemen of Apocalypse essentially. I don't forsee them going anywhere anytime soon permanently at least, they are far too valuable.

If they don't save the day but ends up as tools for the big bad, hot damn I would be all for it, surpassing those four would really mean something imo, by hype they are undeniably the strongest Kages ever.

Surpassing them would be meaningful, but I don't think Kishi has in him to do another Arc after this one, expecially because, even if oro has those four, he can't top the Madara+Obito+Juubi trio imo

[Delbi]

If they don't save the day but ends up as tools for the big bad, hot damn I would be all for it, surpassing those four would really mean something imo, by hype they are undeniably the strongest Kages ever.

Surpassing them would be meaningful, but I don't think Kishi has in him to do another Arc after this one, expecially because, even if oro has those four, he can't top the Madara+Obito+Juubi trio imo

Surpassing them would be meaningful, however, you would need 4 individuals to battle them. And IMO, if Orochimaru or Sasuke (or a combo of them) is the final big bad, that guy will be left for Naruto most likely. So, IMO 1 of 3 things could happen.

1) Naruto has to fight 1 of the 4 (probably Minato or Hashirama) and then he fights Sasuke and/or Orochimaru.

2) Naruto doesn't fight any of them, and 4 others do thus giving him the pass to fight Sasuke and/or Orochimaru. (Will get to who those 4 could possibly be in a second).

3) Naruto fights all 4 and then fights Orochimaru and/or Sasuke (highly unlikely if you ask me).

So, who would be the 4 people most likely to square off against the former Hokages? IMO, we have a lot to choose from.

Individually, there are few who would be relevant enough and powerful enough to do the job.

Kakashi certainly comes to mind. As does Shikamaru (would kind of be an asspull but it is possible). Gaara is another one. Tsuande or any of the Kages if they live. If we have a time-skip you of course have Kono.

IMO, what could happen is groups of nina fight each of them, but that they would need to be select groups. Sand trio. Kakashi, Gai, Tenzo. InoShikaChou, etc. etc.

[Rikudou King]

How are Sasuke, Itachi, Obito and everyone else pertinent in a thread about Hiruzen and Madara?
Stick to the topic please

They were brought up in an attempt to show why the belief that someone beating another automatically makes them stronger didn't work, since the main argument for Sarutobi being stronger then Madara is he defeated Edo Hashirama. Sasuke was brought up because he "defeated" Itachi and Nagato, who in turn "defeated" others Sarutobi couldn't. So using that logic, Sasuke was stronger then the Hokages, which is obviously flawed.

Ah, that, too. I don't know. Perhaps Obito was thinking Sasuke could somehow awaken the Rinnegan with his help. We can never truly measure this, since this is all hypothetic, but the only time we saw Nagato in action, he was doing quite a good job against the team of Naruto, Bee and Itachi, until Itachi's intellect overwhelmed Kabuto's, who was controlling Nagato's movements and Nagato was still lacking mobility at that point.
So, if we are to say EMS Sasuke was supposed to surpass Pain, I'm on the board. But I really doubt he could surpass prime Nagato (that is, without acquiring the Rinnegan)

I don't know about that. Obito would have known from Madara's story that it took like five decades for him to awaken it, and Obito himself possesses both key ingredient yet hasn't awaken it in the 15 years he's been around. Sasuke awakening it seems like a pretty long shot to hope for, especially since he doesn't appear to have any Senju Dna.

Eh, Naruto and Kirabi's performance weren't any better against the Edo Jinchuuriki's or Obito. Can't really consider Nagato overpowered just by that. And to be fair, the glimpses we got of prime him fighting in the Ame civil war didn't exactly imply overwhelming strength, though it could have been he didn't know all of the Rinnegan's abilities at the time. I don't think EMS Sasuke would be that behind Nagato or Pain, who main saving grace was being disposable corpses.