The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

[Rikudou King]

So the addition of Mokuton(power booster as proven by New Oro), the Rinnegan (arguably superior to MS based on versatility alone), and UNLIMITED CHAKRA because he's undead makes you think his Edo feats would still be equal to his level of power when he fought the first? I seriously doubt that but hopefully we'll see soon enough.

None of the Edo summons have really made use of the "unlimited chakra" feature yet, and I said you shouldn't apply what Madara has done with Mokuton and the Rinnegan. Discount anything done with those to abilities, and we should have an idea of what he was originally capable of.

True, though he could have rooted himself into place since he saw the attack coming.

Think such a thing would have been shown.

We don't know how the fight went, though. Maybe Muu and Onoki didn't go all out because they feared losing alliance with Konoha or Hashirama.

We know they lost badly. It could be they didn't go all out, but then would Onoki be so scared of Madara if he hadn't been at least attempting to put up a real fight?

True, but we've only seen old Sarutobi, who despite not being in the shape he was in his prime, was able to take on two former hokage (despite their bein at half power) and Orochimaru. While nothing has supported Hiruzen's hype, nothing hindered it either, other than Hashirama bein constantly praised and he and Madara showin quite a hell lot of power.

But his hype has been hindered. First Kishi retcon the way techniques works, removing the idea of him being able to use all of Konoha's, then Edo Tensei was brought back and we see dozens of ways to stop them without the need to sacrifice one's life, bring into question Sarutobi's knowledge of techniques and the impressiveness of defeating an Edo summon. Him being the "strongest" of Kages during the current era is questionable when he lacks the speed and penetration power to match Ee or the sheer destructive power of Onoki. He's also the only Kage who wasn't shown capable of fighting/countering a Bijuu upon his own. And the age claim went out the window when we have the older Onoki and Chiyo matching strength with the current generation.

I see it as the equivalent of Jiraiya or someone saying "Minato was the great ninja produced by Konoha." Nothing so far has contradicted that because the first two kage were born before Konoha was established, Hiruzen may have been born before Konoha as well, and Minato might be better than the Sannin.

Yeah, but in addition to the praise given to him, Minato was shown as a genius, outdoing Konoha's searchers in saving Kushina from Kumo solo, wiping out an entire division of Iwa ninjas who had nearly eliminated Konoha's forces, stealing the title of fastest from Ee, becoming the youngest Hokage, and saving the entire village from the Kyuubi "natural disaster". The only Konoha ninja we seen do as much is Itachi and Naruto, and the only difference is that Itachi's actions were a secret while Naruto's have only been recent. Sarutobi's only shown feat is dealing with the Edo Hokages and taking on Orochimaru, which while impressive, isn't exactly the feat of feats.

[Tenacious Weezy]

None of the Edo summons have really made use of the "unlimited chakra" feature yet, and I said you shouldn't apply what Madara has done with Mokuton and the Rinnegan. Discount anything done with those to abilities, and we should have an idea of what he was originally capable.

IMO the unlimited chakra means that none of the Edo summons get tired which is pretty unfair. They also can't be hurt or killed so Madara could be hit by damn near anything and still be fine. I'm sorry but that in itself is a huge advantage that he didn't have previously when he was alive.

He has EMS so I expect him to be able to see moves and plan accordingly because not only is he beyond his prime but because he's very experienced as a fighter. Even Naruto was faster than the Raikage if you want compare his speed. Minato is in the same realm and so is the 2nd hokages likely(both due to space/time Justus).

So lastly, if you don't mind because I'm skeptical, could you list or perhaps show some feats that weren't effected by the Mokuton or Rinnegan? I doubt it because we don't know what is and isn't really. After thiese upcoming flashbacks we can probably get a better idea on his living feats to compare to. Even the OP said new Madara is probably overkill now compared to Sarutobi.

[Rikudou King]

IMO the unlimited chakra means that none of the Edo summons get tired which is pretty unfair. They also can't be hurt or killed so Madara could be hit by damn near anything and still be fine. I'm sorry but that in itself is a huge advantage that he didn't have previously when he was alive.

The Nidaime Mizukage was shown tired, Itachi and Hanzou were both still affected by the drawbacks of their own abilities, Deidara was still weak to lightning, and Nagato was still affected by his own inability to move fast. The Edo summons not being killable isn't much, because they can still be hurt like normal and that would open them up to being sealed as we saw repeatedly through the war.

He has EMS so I expect him to be able to see moves and plan accordingly because not only is he beyond his prime but because he's very experienced as a fighter. Even Naruto was faster than the Raikage if you want compare his speed. Minato is in the same realm and so is the 2nd hokages likely(both due to space/time Justus).

The prediction abilities wouldn't automatically grant the ability to react to such speeds. We saw this with Sasuke. And Naruto's only faster with forewarning. Being fast due to a S/T technique is not the same as being physically fast. Obito has Kamui, but normally he's not exactly a speedster.

So lastly, if you don't mind because I'm skeptical, could you list or perhaps show some feats that weren't effected by the Mokuton or Rinnegan? I doubt it because we don't know what is and isn't really. After thiese upcoming flashbacks we can probably get a better idea on his living feats to compare to. Even the OP said new Madara is probably overkill now compared to Sarutobi.

The feats we've seen from Madara that were unaffiliated with either Mokuton or the Rinnegan were Madara's blinding speed in dodging Gaara's sand and whirling through the Alliance Forces, his reflexes being fast enough to block Ee's max speed twice, durability to tank a hit from him without injury and strength to casually kick away a large ninja quite a distances from him, the sheer sizes and strength of his fire techniques, the size and power of his Susanoo, and his skills with his fan to block and counter Naruto's Bijuu Rasengan.

[shahdan]

Shouldn't this thread be closed given the latest fact about Hizuren's glaring inferiority before Hashirama?

[Tenacious Weezy]

The Nidaime Mizukage was shown tired, Itachi and Hanzou were both still affected by the drawbacks of their own abilities, Deidara was still weak to lightning, and Nagato was still affected by his own inability to move fast. The Edo summons not being killable isn't much, because they can still be hurt like normal and that would open them up to being sealed as we saw repeatedly through the war.

The prediction abilities wouldn't automatically grant the ability to react to such speeds. We saw this with Sasuke. And Naruto's only faster with forewarning. Being fast due to a S/T technique is not the same as being physically fast. Obito has Kamui, but normally he's not exactly a speedster.

The feats we've seen from Madara that were unaffiliated with either Mokuton or the Rinnegan were Madara's blinding speed in dodging Gaara's sand and whirling through the Alliance Forces, his reflexes being fast enough to block Ee's max speed twice, durability to tank a hit from him without injury and strength to casually kick away a large ninja quite a distances from him, the sheer sizes and strength of his fire techniques, the size and power of his Susanoo, and his skills with his fan to block and counter Naruto's Bijuu Rasengan.

Everyone still has their inherent weakness but no one has sustaining injuries from the fights. Seals don't effect Madara (no one can seal him to be accurate) so yeah no point in discussing that.

Speed is speed physically or Justu it's still speed one is a utility and the other an ability. Now for the comparison based on your comment. Forewarning from Naruto is similar to eyes that can see quick movements. Naruto was able to react thanks to the body of the sage. Isn't it possible Madara was able to counter because of the Hashrima cells (body of the sage reincarnate) that boosted his physical body as well? Blocking too?

I believe the fire, blocking the rasengans, and the Susanoo are legit. However him forming multiple clones with the ability to all summon their Susanoos is obviously an enhancement. The issue is where does HIS power end and the Rinnegan/Mokuton powers begin? You really can't say you know for sure.

Shouldn't this thread be closed given the latest fact about Hizuren's glaring inferiority before Hashirama?

How so? He was his student. He probably knows how overpowering is chakra first hand or maybe he didn't want to see the two brothers fighting as that would cause serious damage. He didn't seem inferior actually he was the only one not visually freaked out or bothered. More like relieved.

[Rikudou King]

Everyone still has their inherent weakness but no one has sustaining injuries from the fights. Seals don't effect Madara (no one can seal him to be accurate) so yeah no point in discussing that.

Not sustaining injuries don't matter against opponent's whose goal is to seal them. Madara being able to avoid being seal up to this point doesn't mean seals won't work on him. He's come close to being sealed before he was required to save himself.

Speed is speed physically or Justu it's still speed one is a utility and the other an ability. Now for the comparison based on your comment. Forewarning from Naruto is similar to eyes that can see quick movements. Naruto was able to react thanks to the body of the sage. Isn't it possible Madara was able to counter because of the Hashrima cells (body of the sage reincarnate) that boosted his physical body as well? Blocking too?

No, they're quite different. And the eyes getting forewarning wouldn't allow the user to dodge unless they were actually capable of moving that fast. Lee pointed this out to Sasuke back during the Chuunin Exam, where despite Sasuke being able to read all of Lee's movements, he wasn't psychically fast enough to do anything with that knowledge. Naruto has been caught off guard multiple times since then and couldn't even move before Amaterasu was used, unlike Ee. Neither Danzo, Yamato, or the Zetsus have shown any enhanced speed, so that's not anything granted by Mokuton.

I believe the fire, blocking the rasengans, and the Susanoo are legit. However him forming multiple clones with the ability to all summon their Susanoos is obviously an enhancement. The issue is where does HIS power end and the Rinnegan/Mokuton powers begin? You really can't say you know for sure.

Those clones were outright stated to be Mokuton Clones, and them being clones explains why they were capable of using his techniques like every other clone. His power is obviously everything not link to Mokuton or the Rinnegan. It's not that hard because all Mokuton techniques are clearly made of wood and we know all the techniques of the Rinnegan.