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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #1066
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    It's pretty unfair to try and compare Old Sarutobi to the Edo Tensei Madara we've seen in this war...

    That said, it would be pretty hard for Sarutobi to fight Perfect Susanoo.

    However... I'm sure that Sarutobi, in his prime, could figure something out to hold on for a while. He knew all the justu in Konoha, and thus could come up with a way to counter each. For example, he used a summon to counter Mokuton. He used his keen senses to counter the darkness genjutsu. He used Minato's sealing jutsu to counter the Edo Tensei.

    He would likely still lose, but I don't think he's as weak as some are making him out to be.

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  3. #1067
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    More like it was made out of something unique. But blocking would still have required him to physically be able to block, else he would have been knocked backwards himself.
    True, though he could have rooted himself into place since he saw the attack coming.

    Quote Quote:
    But with Madara, we're not just relying on hype, we're also relying on his feats shown. He was physically capable of handling Ee's max speed and tanking a punch without injury, dodging Gaara's sand in an instant, literally solo'ing an entire army division, fighting Onoki and Muu together without going full out, and of course, fighting against Hashirama several times before he "died". He's shown the feats to back up the hype, unlike Sarutobi who has shown nothing to support his hype.
    We don't know how the fight went, though. Maybe Muu and Onoki didn't go all out because they feared losing alliance with Konoha or Hashirama.

    True, but we've only seen old Sarutobi, who despite not being in the shape he was in his prime, was able to take on two former hokage (despite their bein at half power) and Orochimaru. While nothing has supported Hiruzen's hype, nothing hindered it either, other than Hashirama bein constantly praised and he and Madara showin quite a hell lot of power.

    I see it as the equivalent of Jiraiya or someone saying "Minato was the great ninja produced by Konoha." Nothing so far has contradicted that because the first two kage were born before Konoha was established, Hiruzen may have been born before Konoha as well, and Minato might be better than the Sannin.
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  4. #1068
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    So the addition of Mokuton(power booster as proven by New Oro), the Rinnegan (arguably superior to MS based on versatility alone), and UNLIMITED CHAKRA because he's undead makes you think his Edo feats would still be equal to his level of power when he fought the first? I seriously doubt that but hopefully we'll see soon enough.
    None of the Edo summons have really made use of the "unlimited chakra" feature yet, and I said you shouldn't apply what Madara has done with Mokuton and the Rinnegan. Discount anything done with those to abilities, and we should have an idea of what he was originally capable of.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    True, though he could have rooted himself into place since he saw the attack coming.
    Think such a thing would have been shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    We don't know how the fight went, though. Maybe Muu and Onoki didn't go all out because they feared losing alliance with Konoha or Hashirama.
    We know they lost badly. It could be they didn't go all out, but then would Onoki be so scared of Madara if he hadn't been at least attempting to put up a real fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    True, but we've only seen old Sarutobi, who despite not being in the shape he was in his prime, was able to take on two former hokage (despite their bein at half power) and Orochimaru. While nothing has supported Hiruzen's hype, nothing hindered it either, other than Hashirama bein constantly praised and he and Madara showin quite a hell lot of power.
    But his hype has been hindered. First Kishi retcon the way techniques works, removing the idea of him being able to use all of Konoha's, then Edo Tensei was brought back and we see dozens of ways to stop them without the need to sacrifice one's life, bring into question Sarutobi's knowledge of techniques and the impressiveness of defeating an Edo summon. Him being the "strongest" of Kages during the current era is questionable when he lacks the speed and penetration power to match Ee or the sheer destructive power of Onoki. He's also the only Kage who wasn't shown capable of fighting/countering a Bijuu upon his own. And the age claim went out the window when we have the older Onoki and Chiyo matching strength with the current generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I see it as the equivalent of Jiraiya or someone saying "Minato was the great ninja produced by Konoha." Nothing so far has contradicted that because the first two kage were born before Konoha was established, Hiruzen may have been born before Konoha as well, and Minato might be better than the Sannin.
    Yeah, but in addition to the praise given to him, Minato was shown as a genius, outdoing Konoha's searchers in saving Kushina from Kumo solo, wiping out an entire division of Iwa ninjas who had nearly eliminated Konoha's forces, stealing the title of fastest from Ee, becoming the youngest Hokage, and saving the entire village from the Kyuubi "natural disaster". The only Konoha ninja we seen do as much is Itachi and Naruto, and the only difference is that Itachi's actions were a secret while Naruto's have only been recent. Sarutobi's only shown feat is dealing with the Edo Hokages and taking on Orochimaru, which while impressive, isn't exactly the feat of feats.

  5. #1069
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Tenacious Weezy's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    None of the Edo summons have really made use of the "unlimited chakra" feature yet, and I said you shouldn't apply what Madara has done with Mokuton and the Rinnegan. Discount anything done with those to abilities, and we should have an idea of what he was originally capable.
    IMO the unlimited chakra means that none of the Edo summons get tired which is pretty unfair. They also can't be hurt or killed so Madara could be hit by damn near anything and still be fine. I'm sorry but that in itself is a huge advantage that he didn't have previously when he was alive.

    He has EMS so I expect him to be able to see moves and plan accordingly because not only is he beyond his prime but because he's very experienced as a fighter. Even Naruto was faster than the Raikage if you want compare his speed. Minato is in the same realm and so is the 2nd hokages likely(both due to space/time Justus).

    So lastly, if you don't mind because I'm skeptical, could you list or perhaps show some feats that weren't effected by the Mokuton or Rinnegan? I doubt it because we don't know what is and isn't really. After thiese upcoming flashbacks we can probably get a better idea on his living feats to compare to. Even the OP said new Madara is probably overkill now compared to Sarutobi.

  6. #1070
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    IMO the unlimited chakra means that none of the Edo summons get tired which is pretty unfair. They also can't be hurt or killed so Madara could be hit by damn near anything and still be fine. I'm sorry but that in itself is a huge advantage that he didn't have previously when he was alive.
    The Nidaime Mizukage was shown tired, Itachi and Hanzou were both still affected by the drawbacks of their own abilities, Deidara was still weak to lightning, and Nagato was still affected by his own inability to move fast. The Edo summons not being killable isn't much, because they can still be hurt like normal and that would open them up to being sealed as we saw repeatedly through the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    He has EMS so I expect him to be able to see moves and plan accordingly because not only is he beyond his prime but because he's very experienced as a fighter. Even Naruto was faster than the Raikage if you want compare his speed. Minato is in the same realm and so is the 2nd hokages likely(both due to space/time Justus).
    The prediction abilities wouldn't automatically grant the ability to react to such speeds. We saw this with Sasuke. And Naruto's only faster with forewarning. Being fast due to a S/T technique is not the same as being physically fast. Obito has Kamui, but normally he's not exactly a speedster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    So lastly, if you don't mind because I'm skeptical, could you list or perhaps show some feats that weren't effected by the Mokuton or Rinnegan? I doubt it because we don't know what is and isn't really. After thiese upcoming flashbacks we can probably get a better idea on his living feats to compare to. Even the OP said new Madara is probably overkill now compared to Sarutobi.
    The feats we've seen from Madara that were unaffiliated with either Mokuton or the Rinnegan were Madara's blinding speed in dodging Gaara's sand and whirling through the Alliance Forces, his reflexes being fast enough to block Ee's max speed twice, durability to tank a hit from him without injury and strength to casually kick away a large ninja quite a distances from him, the sheer sizes and strength of his fire techniques, the size and power of his Susanoo, and his skills with his fan to block and counter Naruto's Bijuu Rasengan.

  7. #1071
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Shouldn't this thread be closed given the latest fact about Hizuren's glaring inferiority before Hashirama?

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  9. #1072
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Tenacious Weezy's Avatar
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The Nidaime Mizukage was shown tired, Itachi and Hanzou were both still affected by the drawbacks of their own abilities, Deidara was still weak to lightning, and Nagato was still affected by his own inability to move fast. The Edo summons not being killable isn't much, because they can still be hurt like normal and that would open them up to being sealed as we saw repeatedly through the war.

    The prediction abilities wouldn't automatically grant the ability to react to such speeds. We saw this with Sasuke. And Naruto's only faster with forewarning. Being fast due to a S/T technique is not the same as being physically fast. Obito has Kamui, but normally he's not exactly a speedster.

    The feats we've seen from Madara that were unaffiliated with either Mokuton or the Rinnegan were Madara's blinding speed in dodging Gaara's sand and whirling through the Alliance Forces, his reflexes being fast enough to block Ee's max speed twice, durability to tank a hit from him without injury and strength to casually kick away a large ninja quite a distances from him, the sheer sizes and strength of his fire techniques, the size and power of his Susanoo, and his skills with his fan to block and counter Naruto's Bijuu Rasengan.
    Everyone still has their inherent weakness but no one has sustaining injuries from the fights. Seals don't effect Madara (no one can seal him to be accurate) so yeah no point in discussing that.

    Speed is speed physically or Justu it's still speed one is a utility and the other an ability. Now for the comparison based on your comment. Forewarning from Naruto is similar to eyes that can see quick movements. Naruto was able to react thanks to the body of the sage. Isn't it possible Madara was able to counter because of the Hashrima cells (body of the sage reincarnate) that boosted his physical body as well? Blocking too?

    I believe the fire, blocking the rasengans, and the Susanoo are legit. However him forming multiple clones with the ability to all summon their Susanoos is obviously an enhancement. The issue is where does HIS power end and the Rinnegan/Mokuton powers begin? You really can't say you know for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Shouldn't this thread be closed given the latest fact about Hizuren's glaring inferiority before Hashirama?
    How so? He was his student. He probably knows how overpowering is chakra first hand or maybe he didn't want to see the two brothers fighting as that would cause serious damage. He didn't seem inferior actually he was the only one not visually freaked out or bothered. More like relieved.

  10. #1073
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    Re: The 3rd Hokage is PROBABLY stronger than Madara

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    Everyone still has their inherent weakness but no one has sustaining injuries from the fights. Seals don't effect Madara (no one can seal him to be accurate) so yeah no point in discussing that.
    Not sustaining injuries don't matter against opponent's whose goal is to seal them. Madara being able to avoid being seal up to this point doesn't mean seals won't work on him. He's come close to being sealed before he was required to save himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    Speed is speed physically or Justu it's still speed one is a utility and the other an ability. Now for the comparison based on your comment. Forewarning from Naruto is similar to eyes that can see quick movements. Naruto was able to react thanks to the body of the sage. Isn't it possible Madara was able to counter because of the Hashrima cells (body of the sage reincarnate) that boosted his physical body as well? Blocking too?
    No, they're quite different. And the eyes getting forewarning wouldn't allow the user to dodge unless they were actually capable of moving that fast. Lee pointed this out to Sasuke back during the Chuunin Exam, where despite Sasuke being able to read all of Lee's movements, he wasn't psychically fast enough to do anything with that knowledge. Naruto has been caught off guard multiple times since then and couldn't even move before Amaterasu was used, unlike Ee. Neither Danzo, Yamato, or the Zetsus have shown any enhanced speed, so that's not anything granted by Mokuton.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    I believe the fire, blocking the rasengans, and the Susanoo are legit. However him forming multiple clones with the ability to all summon their Susanoos is obviously an enhancement. The issue is where does HIS power end and the Rinnegan/Mokuton powers begin? You really can't say you know for sure.
    Those clones were outright stated to be Mokuton Clones, and them being clones explains why they were capable of using his techniques like every other clone. His power is obviously everything not link to Mokuton or the Rinnegan. It's not that hard because all Mokuton techniques are clearly made of wood and we know all the techniques of the Rinnegan.

  11. #1074
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    This would explain a lot about the current conjecture of the series.

    It always felt strange how Madara never used Amaterasu despite facing the 5 kages but more importantly Hashirama despite the latter using techniques based of on inflamable wood.

    Even if Hashirama had a lethal counter to the technique that would not explain why Madara didn't use it against the 5 kages who certainly had no way of stopping it.

    In my opinion, since it was revealed the MS reflects the specific despair of the user rather than a predefined set of abilities, Madara doesn't have Amaterasu and hence why he never prevailed over Hashirama Senju.

    We assumed Madara was the first to use Amaterasu because we tought other had information about it due to Madara's historical records in Konoha but since Itachi was a spy he could very well have been the first to awake Amaterasu and gave information how to counter it.

    If Amaterasu and Enton are the definitive counter to Mokuton I wouldn't put it past Kishimoto to have Sasuke win a possible fight with Hashirama or Madara because of that.

    As for Obito not having Tsukuyomi it would explain why he didn't become the Juubi's jinchuriki right of the bat.

    His sharingan grants him Kamui and maybe Susanoo (we can't be sure until his eyes are reunited) but if he needs someone else to cast Tsukuyomi on humanity this would explain his dependancy on Madara and his interest in Sasuke.

    If he could just go and use the Genjutsu by himself he would never have bothered to keep Naruto alive when he had so many chances to capture him but if he needed Naruto to motivate Sasuke into becoming the Juubi's jinchuriki then his plan makes a whole lot more sense.

    Sasuke was perfect because he could cast Tsukuyomi in Madara's place while being manipulable whereas Madara would certainly throw Obito under the bus.

    Even tough Obito took Madara's right eye, we don't know if a transplanted Rinnegan can morph back to EMS and much less if Madara's right eye was the one he used to cast Tsukuyomi in his life.

    In this sense, unless Obito knew how to change between the Rinnegan and the EMS and that Madara's Tsukuyomi came explicitly out of his right eye, Obito would be forced to either bargain with Madara or manipulate Sasuke (much easier) instead of casting the Mugen Tsukuyomi by himself.

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  13. #1075
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity llamapie's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    This would explain a lot about the current conjecture of the series.

    It always felt strange how Madara never used Amaterasu despite facing the 5 kages but more importantly Hashirama despite the latter using techniques based of on inflamable wood.

    Even if Hashirama had a lethal counter to the technique that would not explain why Madara didn't use it against the 5 kages who certainly had no way of stopping it.

    In my opinion, since it was revealed the MS reflects the specific despair of the user rather than a predefined set of abilities, Madara doesn't have Amaterasu and hence why he never prevailed over Hashirama Senju.

    We assumed Madara was the first to use Amaterasu because we tought other had information about it due to Madara's historical records in Konoha but since Itachi was a spy he could very well have been the first to awake Amaterasu and gave information how to counter it.

    If Amaterasu and Enton are the definitive counter to Mokuton I wouldn't put it past Kishimoto to have Sasuke win a possible fight with Hashirama or Madara because of that.

    As for Obito not having Tsukuyomi it would explain why he didn't become the Juubi's jinchuriki right of the bat.

    His sharingan grants him Kamui and maybe Susanoo (we can't be sure until his eyes are reunited) but if he needs someone else to cast Tsukuyomi on humanity this would explain his dependancy on Madara and his interest in Sasuke.

    If he could just go and use the Genjutsu by himself he would never have bothered to keep Naruto alive when he had so many chances to capture him but if he needed Naruto to motivate Sasuke into becoming the Juubi's jinchuriki then his plan makes a whole lot more sense.

    Sasuke was perfect because he could cast Tsukuyomi in Madara's place while being manipulable whereas Madara would certainly throw Obito under the bus.

    Even tough Obito took Madara's right eye, we don't know if a transplanted Rinnegan can morph back to EMS and much less if Madara's right eye was the one he used to cast Tsukuyomi in his life.

    In this sense, unless Obito knew how to change between the Rinnegan and the EMS and that Madara's Tsukuyomi came explicitly out of his right eye, Obito would be forced to either bargain with Madara or manipulate Sasuke (much easier) instead of casting the Mugen Tsukuyomi by himself.
    Ya it makes you wonder what his other MS techniques are if any. Right now he has just displayed his Susanoo. But ya totally agree. I think its based on family too. Both Itachi and Sasuke had Ametarasu (sasuke's is better) and Tsukiyomi (Itachi's is better). But yes, most certainly you don't gain a preset of abilities. For instance Shisui's eye gave him an incredible genjutsu able to change someone's very nature permanently. So ya I'm curious what Madara has or if we'll see it considering now he has the Rinnegan which is overpowered in its own right.
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  14. #1076
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by llamapie View Post
    Ya it makes you wonder what his other MS techniques are if any. Right now he has just displayed his Susanoo. But ya totally agree. I think its based on family too. Both Itachi and Sasuke had Ametarasu (sasuke's is better) and Tsukiyomi (Itachi's is better). But yes, most certainly you don't gain a preset of abilities. For instance Shisui's eye gave him an incredible genjutsu able to change someone's very nature permanently. So ya I'm curious what Madara has or if we'll see it considering now he has the Rinnegan which is overpowered in its own right.
    If I were to make a guess, his third power would wind based as he has always used a fan during battle.

    They say the fan can create powerful gusts of wind when channeled with chakra but maybe it was Madara's ability that created tornados out of nowhere.

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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    i thought one of sasukes eyes was used to summon ametarasu while the other one was to manipulate it and since itachi had ameterasu and tsukiyomi , his ametarasu wasnt as good as sasukes

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  17. #1078
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    I'm wondering if each set of brothers has the same set of individual eye powers, but each brother is better with one than the other according to their natural abilities. But, any Uchiha who unlocks eye powers in each eye has access to Sussano.
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  18. #1079
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Well yeah. It was clear they don't have the same tech (aside for Susano) from the point it was revealed that Kakashi has Obito's eye and they have Kamui.

    Its Sasuke:

    Amaterasu.
    Amaterasu manipulation.

    Take note that Sasuke shoots Amaterasu with 1 eye and manipulates it with the other. Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi as that other eye is used to manipulate Amaterasu.

    Itachi:

    Amaterasu.
    Tsukiyomi

    Obito (asuming he has both eyes):

    Defensive Kamui that can be cast on himself or when tauching people.
    Offensive Kamui that can be cast at range.

    Madara?

    -insert here
    -insert here

    He should have 2 powers most defenetly. You need 2 powers to awaken the 3'th one, Susano. Sasuke stated it back when he was facing Raikage/Gaara.

    Now why is he not using it? Probably because it would be a headache for Kishi to come up with 2 more and be better then that of Itachi/Sasuke and Obito... Madara needs to be above them.
    Last edited by xXan; March 11, 2013 at 03:00 AM.

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  20. #1080
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Didn't sasuke use tsukiyomi against bee?
    Meh

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