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Thread: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

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    MH's Best Reviewer MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Jammin's Avatar
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    Confused Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    I have a confession to make about KageBunshin training. I don't think it makes any sense.

    This has been bugging me for years. I never mentioned it because with Sasuke always getting power-ups that were, if not free, gotten a huge Uchiha discount. Typically those shortcuts to strength were just excused with the 3 magic words of "he's a genius" (That's not how being a genius works, by the way). Anyway, since it balanced things out I just chose to ignore the concepts behind Kagebunshin training.

    But the fact that, in all the arguments skirting this general topic, I've never seen anybody mention this is starting to bother me. So here we go...

    Why Kagebunshin Training Never Made Sense to Me.


    Think about this for a moment. Assuming you train with 1000 of yourself and then combine the experience, it wouldn't have significant effect on the outcome of the training because all 1000 of you would be starting at the same point of experience and ending at the same point. So basically Naruto ends up learning the same thing for the first time, 1000 times. He's not getting 1000x the experience because the experience isn't shared until the bunshin is released. Making the repetitions... completely pointless.

    If you have 1000 of yourself learn the same thing 3 times independently of one another and then rejoin. How many repetitions worth of experience do you actually have? The answer, unfortunately, is 3.

    Imagine reading a book. Now imagine assigning 1000 of yourself to read that same book. You don't read that book any faster because you have to start at beginning and go to the end or the book won't make sense.

    The only real application of that sort of training would be to train 1000 different things at the same time. That WOULD make sense. As it wouldn't be like 1000 of him reading one book, it would be like 1000 of him reading a 1000 different books.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    So, am I missing something here? Does this thing actually make perfect sense and I'm just too dim to understand it's brilliance? Or is Kagebunshin training, as I've secretly always suspected, a massive load of nonsensical crap?
    Last edited by Jammin; February 13, 2013 at 08:48 PM.
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Actually, it doesn't really make sense, at least not the way Kishi did. For it to work, luck would have to have played a big factor, since Naruto's learning anything depended on one of his clones getting lucky and achieving the wanted result in a single try. Could sort of seeing it working for taijutsu training or as you said, learning a bunch of different things at once.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    It should work, but not for Naruto IMO.

    I say this because Naruto was just getting lucky trying different things with everything he did. He seems to work on feeling much more than precision. To me, it would seem to learn from something like this, you would need to know the ins and outs of jutsu and what you are doing. You would need to know what balance of chakra does and doesn't work, but type of force does and doesn't work, etc etc.

    I think the technique could certainly work because it's just massive trial and error. I just don't think Naruto is smart enough or has enough knowledge of how jutsu actually work for it to work effectively.
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    What you said makes sense, if not for the fact that Elemental training isn't like reading a book 100 times over, basically every Naruto seems to have his own personality and flair, and every Naruto can experience something different from the other.
    Also doing the same thing 1 time over is different than doing it 100 times, try shooting a shot 1 time, then 100.
    Rest assured your accuracy would be waaay better if you shot 100 times.
    Basically Naruto tried to cut that leaf 100 times, in that 100 times one of his clones could've found a trick, another could've found out to better use his chakra, and so on. I think it makes sense, even though, as you said, it could've been better.

    What it doesn't make sense, to me, is the fact that experience return to the user.
    I mean Kishi never explained how it does it

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    What it doesn't make sense, to me, is the fact that experience return to the user.
    I mean Kishi never explained how it does it
    How don't you understand that? I thought it was pretty self explanatory. Or am i not understanding your question exactly?

    What i don't get about Kage bunshin is the transfer of exhaustion. Why is it that when he was training he got really tired after he unsummoned all the clones and yet that flaw isn't always consistent? There will be times a clone goes poof after exerting all its chakra and yet the original Naruto is completely unfazed. Why doesn't the pain transfer? Why doesn't the mental stress from genjutsu transfer? Or are clones still immune to genjutsu? Because i see people on the forums claiming that clones is not a viable option to clones.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaStar View Post
    How don't you understand that? I thought it was pretty self explanatory. Or am i not understanding your question exactly?

    What i don't get about Kage bunshin is the transfer of exhaustion. Why is it that when he was training he got really tired after he unsummoned all the clones and yet that flaw isn't always consistent? There will be times a clone goes poof after exerting all its chakra and yet the original Naruto is completely unfazed. Why doesn't the pain transfer? Why doesn't the mental stress from genjutsu transfer? Or are clones still immune to genjutsu? Because i see people on the forums claiming that clones is not a viable option to clones.
    Its basically how experience, and only experience ( and well Senjutsu chakra ) can travel back from the user.
    It would make sense if, say, the chakra used would return to the user, and it would explain how Naruto survived having his chakra split into 1/1000, but randomly so doesn't make sense imo.
    I mean how can experience travel from the copy to the user? I'm talking about the process of the transfer.

    As for mental fatigue, is because Kakashi is dumb enough to make him dispel 1000 clones at once:
    say Naruto dispelled one at a time, he would have time to process every clone's information instead of having, at the same time, 1000 experiences of 1000 different point of views.

    As for clones being immune to genjutsus, the Itachi-copy vs Kakashi fight pretty much proved that:
    we see Kakashi's KB reacting despite being in a genjutsu, and Itachi confirming it right after
    Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; February 02, 2013 at 05:46 AM.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    i think it is and it isnt. think of it like doing something 1000 times over, since they apparently get experience instead of anruto training 1000 days he gets his clones to cut down on the time through training. if they are all practicing the same thing at the same time instead of doing it over the course of years it'll def shorten the time but it doesnt make sense that he can still train with 1000 clones. i know he has 3 times kakashis chakra but still the fact that he can make 1000 clones and still function without using kyuubi chakra is ridiculous, hes training 1000 times at once how can he sustain that or even attempt it without severely draining his chakra to the point of exhaustion. the fact that he can do this and train is bs, if he was just reading a book and doing different things at once, yeah, but all the clones split chakra evenly and expend it so they should each have like 0.001 of his chakra each (1 divided by 1000), i call bs on all of them training at the same time like you said, the kb theory makes sense but putting it in motion should be near impossible
    Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 02, 2013 at 08:00 AM.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Actually, it doesn't really make sense, at least not the way Kishi did. For it to work, luck would have to have played a big factor, since Naruto's learning anything depended on one of his clones getting lucky and achieving the wanted result in a single try. Could sort of seeing it working for taijutsu training or as you said, learning a bunch of different things at once.
    The main problem with Taijutsu training is that muscle memory would not advance. Martial arts training is all about replacing natural physical responses with new ones through practice and repetition. And make the body better at moving in those ways.

    The goal in martial arts when doing an activity like throwing a certain punch 300 times is actually to have your body throw a punch 300 times. If Naruto uses 100 Kagebunshin's to throw a punch 3 times. His body has only thrown that punch 3 times, which would defeat the point of the exercise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    It should work, but not for Naruto IMO.

    I say this because Naruto was just getting lucky trying different things with everything he did. He seems to work on feeling much more than precision. To me, it would seem to learn from something like this, you would need to know the ins and outs of jutsu and what you are doing. You would need to know what balance of chakra does and doesn't work, but type of force does and doesn't work, etc etc.

    I think the technique could certainly work because it's just massive trial and error. I just don't think Naruto is smart enough or has enough knowledge of how jutsu actually work for it to work effectively.
    I suppose that could work. If you had 100 clones try 100 different approaches at learning something. Like having 100 lab assistants try 100 different experiments. You, would in that case, be speeding things up considerably. Unfortunately, it would be limited by how many different approaches you could figure out to try and solve a problem more than the number of clones you could make. Which as you said, wouldn't be likely to be Naruto's strength.

    Though it still wouldn't be what the manga said....

    "Naruto + 1 Clone + 1 Day of Training = 2 Days of Experience"

    But it stands to reason that it would have been a good and believable application of Kagebunshins for training.


    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    What you said makes sense, if not for the fact that Elemental training isn't like reading a book 100 times over, basically every Naruto seems to have his own personality and flair, and every Naruto can experience something different from the other.
    Also doing the same thing 1 time over is different than doing it 100 times, try shooting a shot 1 time, then 100.
    Rest assured your accuracy would be waaay better if you shot 100 times.
    Basically Naruto tried to cut that leaf 100 times, in that 100 times one of his clones could've found a trick, another could've found out to better use his chakra, and so on. I think it makes sense, even though, as you said, it could've been better.
    That's just it though, he didn't do it if he does something with 100 clones one time, like shooting. He's only actually done it once. Learning is the process of experience building upon experience. The reason your better at something the 100th time you do it is because of the 99 times before that in which you already tried it. No matter how many clones Naruto has, if he's doing something 5 times, from the perspective of each clone he's only done it 5 times, so he only has 5 repetitions of experience. And, since they are all still Naruto, those training attempts should be much them same. You wouldn't be getting "optimal training results", you'd be getting "optimal training results for you"; since your still the common denominator there.

    Whether he is learning to throw a punch or knit or learn a new element or read book all that should remain true.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    Think about this for a moment. Assuming you train with 1000 of yourself and then combine the experience, it wouldn't have significant effect on the outcome of the training because all 1000 of you would be starting at the same point of experience and ending at the same point. So basically Naruto ends up learning the same thing for the first time, 1000 times. He's not getting 1000x the experience because the experience isn't shared until the bunshin is released. Making the repetitions... completely pointless.
    you are assuming one thing that is even more strange. that all the clones would be learning and would be stuck on at the same point. well, this is not true.

    rather think like this, Naruto starts learning nature manipulation without clones. how would he progress? because he is new, he will be learning little things with time. because he doesn't know well, he will be manipulating his chakra in different ways, it will take whole lot of time, don't you think?

    now take those clones into consideration. every clone started training, and they all started to experience things, some experienced similar and some experienced different things. individually those will not seem much, but when Naruto gains the memories of 1000 clones, he will be adding those "small useful" parts of the memories as well. what he could have done by himself using hell lot of a time, he can do the same thing using less time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    If you have 1000 of yourself learn the same thing 3 times independently of one another and then rejoin. How many repetitions worth of experience do you actually have? The answer, unfortunately, is 3.

    Imagine reading a book. Now imagine assigning 1000 of yourself to read that same book. You don't read that book any faster because you have to start at beginning and go to the end or the book won't make sense.

    The only real application of that sort of training would be to train 1000 different things at the same time. That WOULD make sense. As it wouldn't be like 1000 of him reading one book, it would be like 1000 of him reading a 1000 different books.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    So, am I missing something here? Does this thing actually make perfect sense and I'm just too dim to understand it's brilliance? Or is Kagebunshin training, as I've secretly always suspected, a massive load of nonsensical crap?
    the thing i think you are missing is in your assumption. you are thinking that all of the clones are doing the same thing. but in actual, 1000 clones are learning may be hundred different things at once. they are learning for the same purpose (eg. nature manipulation), but they are trying to reach it using different ways. many of the clones will be trying similar ways, but overall, 1000 clones will cover many things at once.

    to me at least it makes sense, i find no problem here.

    i will give one real example, if it makes sense at all. years ago, when i started using computers, it took me such long time to type one single paragraph using my keyboard. you know what? now i am able to type much faster than that. how is that you think? i did exactly the same thing over the time, right? which is using the keyboard for typing. yet, by doing the same thing, i became better than before.
    Last edited by darkprince0521; February 02, 2013 at 12:20 PM.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    It plays off the light bulb theory.

    You work through the 1000 ways to not do something. Each naruto is a naruto, but they operate as individuals, meaning they start at different places.

    If you play your friend in video games, you slowly get better. Add that sum exp up 1000 times and you go faster.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    That's just it though, he didn't do it if he does something with 100 clones one time, like shooting. He's only actually done it once. Learning is the process of experience building upon experience. The reason your better at something the 100th time you do it is because of the 99 times before that in which you already tried it. No matter how many clones Naruto has, if he's doing something 5 times, from the perspective of each clone he's only done it 5 times, so he only has 5 repetitions of experience. And, since they are all still Naruto, those training attempts should be much them same. You wouldn't be getting "optimal training results", you'd be getting "optimal training results for you"; since your still the common denominator there.

    Whether he is learning to throw a punch or knit or learn a new element or read book all that should remain true.
    Every clone does it once, meaning, at the end of the day, Naruto done that 100 times.
    Its not reading the same line over again, is exercising something for 100 times ( you can see how exercising for a jutsu increases the chances of succeding, like Sasuke when he was a kid when learning the Gokyakuu or Naruto when learning Rasengan ), every time you find something new while applying what you know:
    using the example of the shot, maybe I can find how to better use my legs, another time how its better to bend the knee just a little, and on, and every time you add those little useful tips you discover through experience.
    He's not dumbly doing the same exercise ( like writing the same line ) over and over, every clone of Naruto is different from the original, thus Naruto will have 100 different results on top of his own, adding to his personal experience.

    The leaf-cutting exercise shows this perfectly:

    You see one of the Naruto's results, then you see another with way better results, and on and on, every clone has a different result.
    Later Naruto asks Asuma about it, and every clone gets the memo.
    And then, this is the end of that sequence, a tiny cut made by the original, yet next page he is confident he will complete it before long, why? Because, with the flux of informations, he knows the best approach for both cutting, chakra immitting, sharpening of the chakra and whatever is involved, having done it 1000 times already. Basically he's at the level of the one that nearly cut the leaf completely in half, while receiving precious pointers from other clones.
    And what you see next? All Naruto's clones effortlessy cutting the leaf in half.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    It isn't total crap.
    Think about studying for exams.
    You read over a text book once, you don't remember too much.

    You get about 500 of you to read over a text book, and when they come back to you, you got 500 memories of you going over that text book.
    So you're not going to forget a single part of the text book you went over. I mean, you have 500 different memories of going over it.

    But for someone like Naruto to suddenly be able to handle that kinda knowledge and the way it was made to look extremely simple was sort of crap.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    It isn't total crap.
    Think about studying for exams.
    You read over a text book once, you don't remember too much.

    You get about 500 of you to read over a text book, and when they come back to you, you got 500 memories of you going over that text book.
    So you're not going to forget a single part of the text book you went over. I mean, you have 500 different memories of going over it.

    But for someone like Naruto to suddenly be able to handle that kinda knowledge and the way it was made to look extremely simple was sort of crap.
    i don't get it. what's the problem with "someone like Naruto"? or people just add this line behind everything because it looks cool?

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Its basically how experience, and only experience ( and well Senjutsu chakra ) can travel back from the user.
    It would make sense if, say, the chakra used would return to the user, and it would explain how Naruto survived having his chakra split into 1/1000, but randomly so doesn't make sense imo.
    I mean how can experience travel from the copy to the user? I'm talking about the process of the transfer.

    As for mental fatigue, is because Kakashi is dumb enough to make him dispel 1000 clones at once:
    say Naruto dispelled one at a time, he would have time to process every clone's information instead of having, at the same time, 1000 experiences of 1000 different point of views.

    As for clones being immune to genjutsus, the Itachi-copy vs Kakashi fight pretty much proved that:
    we see Kakashi's KB reacting despite being in a genjutsu, and Itachi confirming it right after
    The way I see the transfer is this:

    When Naruto create clones, they all have the same amount of chakra and stamina as Naruto. The have the same spiritual and physical energy as Naruto. These are Naruto's initial resources divided by the total number of copies including the original. During a battle or training, we see that some are talking, some are defending, some are fighting, etc. Each one of them spend some amount of his resources and gain knowledge as well.

    When one clone is destroyed, his stamina, and all other resources are wasted. This mean, if all of them are destroyed, Naruto lose an equivalent amount of his resources, and in particular, a huge stamina. Thus, Naruto will become exhausted if all the clones are killed - reason why KB is forbidden.

    However, if the clones survives, Naruto will gain their knowledge by releasing them under the form of return physical energy or spiritual energy because he get their remaining resources back. My opinion on the knowledge transfer is that these KB are actually illusion. Naruto is the caster of the illusion, thus he can get everything these Bushin experience.
    Last edited by M3J; February 02, 2013 at 04:35 PM.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    its like anything you do repeatedly after awhile you will learn it, and lets say you have 1000 clones, its like doing it 1000 times

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