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Thread: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad <3

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad <3

    A while ago I began an insistence that Zetsu (specifically the black Zetsu) is actually the big bad, and is actually actually the one pulling all the strings behind strings. For there to be one more bad guy "behind" everything isn't unbelievable, it happens all the time in the Narutoverse. My fan-wank theory had something to do with Zetsu's true plan for this war to be to spread himself across many places in the world, 'sewing the seeds' as it were for something involving the jyuubi. I had gotten it into my head that Zetsu was the consciousness of the jyuubi. I have no idea where to look for those posts, but I was proud of my insane ramblings.

    My original reasoning for this was that we know less about the black Zetsu than really anyone else in the series, and I thought I was dealt a horrible blow in that one chapter a lot of people didn't like. I thought "Since black Zetsu is so young, he couldn't be the one that started all this crap."

    Months later, it hit me. This is actually proof of my near-random idea. The before-mysterious "black rods" got the exact same cripplingly over-simplified origin as being "the will of Madara". My current idea is that what Madara said is bullshit. He has no idea what the black rods are and just like Nagato, has no idea what they really did to him when Gedo Mazo (presumably) synced with him. But the reader does have an idea of what happens: even the gentle-hearted Nagato looks fucking crazy with power, almost instantly. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that Madara was transformed from someone who, while being frightfully powerful, was only about as much of an aimless asshole as Sasuke until he summoned the Gedo and (probably involuntarily) synced with it. Then he suddenly 'got the great idea' to revive the jyuubi. This would make Madara look as if he was dicking around with something he didn't understand, and he would (FOR ONCE) have to eat his own words about people abusing forbidden jutsu and the like.

    My conclusion- the black rods are the will of the jyuubi, and the jutsu that Madara did to create Zetsu has nothing to do with "Madara's will", aside from that which overlaps with the jyuubi's own will. The black Zetsu is the black rods given human shape via Yin/Yang release. Further, since the white Zetsu all were grown from Gedo Mazo, and black Zetsu can merge with them, maybe he can merge with the Gedo itself, and by proxy, the jyuubi.

    I wonder when we'll see Zetsu next. Man he sure got beat awful quickly Either he's waiting for Ivysaur jyuubi to evolve into Venusaur jyuubi or I fear I may be wrong. Also this theory being right would make his appearance here all the more poignant.

    PS: This may also be why Tobi seems to have chosen not to sync with Gedo Mazo, and was instead attempting to get Sasuke to. He already noticed the influence from being merged with the white Zetsu (a creation of the Gedo), and didn't want to involuntarily lose anymore of his humanity than he already did. Or maybe he just couldn't. Idk lol

    Bonus off-topic prediction: Tobi has two distinct personalities, like Zetsu.

    The mask reveal was a red herring for his true 'traditional bad guy body modification reveal':

    Sasori - really an adorable bishie inside of a tank monster
    Deidara - fucking awesome chest mouth
    Hidan - didn't need one; he could survive decapitation and that's good enough for this list
    Kakuzu - the heart masks- also a tentacle monster
    Zetsu -
    Itachi - the only clean one; makes sense since he's not a bad guy
    Kisame - special case, his 'reveal modification' wasn't under his clothes per se, but in his sword
    Konan - seems to be more paper than human (though apparently still human enough to be incapacitated with a damn pipe)
    Pain - another 'different' one; Nagato, the emaciated 'real one' was the reveal itself
    Orochimaru - sheds his skin to reveal the White Snake
    Madara - had his armor blown off to reveal Hashirama's face
    Kabuto - Snake sage mode counts, I guess

    Tobi - Spiral Zetsu is still attached to him. When he was being cooky, fun Tobi, that was spiral Zetsu. It has since merged with him more completely, enabling him to spam the shit out of his version of Kamui. When his shirt is blown off completely we'll see his monstrous abdomen, probably complete with a talking Zetsu face that can move around on his body and cover his Obito face when it wants to take control.

    Wooo I was wrong! But such is the joy of a scientist who still has mystery left to unravel. Looks like Tobi's 'traditional bad guy body modification reveal' was an involuntary version of Kisame's, where another sentient-but-not-human entity attaches and creates some bizarre abomination. STILL ZETSU, +1 FOR ME

    Off-topic prediction: Shisui and Obito are more closely related, and both have blood from some other clan *cough Uzumaki* that resulted in their respective special Mangekyou. Madara "chose Obito wisely" indeed.

    EDIT: So it's been enough time to update this thread a little, I think.

    If some of you haven't noticed, Zetsu is becoming more relevant and rebellious the closer Madara gets to 'his' goal. We get this random tidbit about their personalities, and that got me thinking again about how the Zetsu don't look similar to Hashirama, nor do they expressly share Hashirama or Madara's personalities, despite being made from their bodies. I don't know the exact translations in that dialogue, but Zetsu seems to claim that black and white have inverse personalities on purpose. Before I go on, lemme preface with a couple facts:
    • Chakra is bound to the will of its bearer, and that can have a drastic influence on mingling chakras- especially those of a bijuu and its jinchuuriki. The legendarily malice-filled Kurama was first broken into component yin and yang halves- the former spending 16 years inside Minato who was inside the Shinigami. The latter spends 16 years inside Naruto, and the chakra tug of war ends with Naruto's willpower crushing Kurama's, subverting his malice and 'borrowing' his chakra.
    • The Sage spent the entirety of his adult life as the host of the juubi until his incredibly old death. Despite the lack of personality the juubi has shown so far, the baby-bijuu we see after he splits the demon show all of them to be as heartbroken as their little faces can express.

    The chakras of these two were likely linked in inexplicable ways that Kurama/Naruto have only foreshadowed to. We can infer that the Sage had a profound effect on the juubi, whatever its personality may have been between being the shinju and sealed inside the Sage.
    • Nega-Naruto. We see the potential result of a bijuu's malice-laced chakra overcoming its jinchuuriki's willpower. Pretty much an evil version of the jinchuuriki.
    • Chakra contains personality and memories, and if the seal is fancy enough, the sealed ones can even peer outside of their seal and gain new memories, sans a brain. Kushina, Minato, and Orochimaru have THOROUGHLY taught us these facts.

    Ready for this? MY WACKY CONCLUSION BASED ON LITTLE REASONING AND EXTREME OPTIMISM: ZETSU IS THE NEGA-SAGE

    Hear me out now. What is the Gedo Mazou? It's the sealed body of the juubi. Why did the body need to be separated from the chakra? The bijuu grieved the loss of their friend, can you see the juubi doing that? It is literally despair (I'll get back to that, most of you have probably seen my thoughts on this already). The disembodied (literally) chakra then has the capacity to be "painted" as Itachi would so elegantly put it. This is shown in the process of Kurama changing to Naruto's way of seeing things. That wasn't TnJ, it was a literal process in a metaphysical realm that we were shown for convenience.

    The Sage entrusted future generations with the task of slowly cleaning up the mess that he alone couldn't do, but could give a glimmer of hope. Then the mercenary era followed the conflict between the Older and Younger sons. The malice coalesced in the world, "painting" the bijuu to the monstrous forms they would later become infamous for being- I've always believed there was some truth to the kyuubi being a 'natural disaster' and a 'mass of malice' and whatnot. Naruto is all about some mythology emulation.

    REQUIRED BUT STUPID READING: Anyway, because it goes into my key idea, the body of the juubi- the Gedo. The monster that spawns the shinju when it is re-fed enough of it's dispersed chakra (bijuu). What sealed the sealed god? TLDR (just buy it for now) there was an ancient hero skilled in sealing sought to heal the world by sealing all despair. It took the form of a tree which would be called the shinju and worshiped. The hero either married or fathered Kaguya, and sealing is a trait the Uzumaki would inherit through his and Kaguya's line.

    ANYWAYS: Rinnegan is a borrowed power that imitates the juubi's eye in the same way jinchuuriki can use their bijuu's power. By proxy, all doujutsu seem to be descendant of the beast's power. When met with certain criteria that involve despair, the sharingan especially responds by growing powerful from it. The greater the despair the faster and/or stronger it seems to grow. The rinnegan just requires some extra science spices and *blam*, you access the power that is closest to using the juubi's power itself.

    "Somebody should tell the user to beware forbidden jutsu" indeed. When Madara obtained the rinnegan, he unwittingly 'signed' a contract to the Gedo, and was compelled to summon it. Then he suddenly had the great idea to smear Hashirama's 'cells' into it. Then he decided to use inyoton to make "clones". But why do these clones- the white Zetsu- look nothing like Hashirama? And why does the black Zetsu look nothing like Madara, but everything like the white Zetsu except all Noob Saibot-ish?

    The answer is simple- they are nega-clones of the Sage, and can still be described (as I've stated long ago) as the true will of the juubi that has guided all of these events to happen. Their personalities are the polar ends of the Sage's true personality, and thus are 1-dimensional variants of an otherwise-completely unknown man. This was made possible by the chakra the juubi shared with the Sage over his life, affecting the composition of both of their bodies and sort of 'tainting' each other. As I mentioned, half the Sage's bloodline seems to have inherited the ability to tap into an ability that seems to have originated in some capacity from the juubi- the rinnegan. The Gedo was trapped, though. With nothing better to do, it molded a personality that could interact with humans based on the only human it knew well enough to: the Sage. Imagine if Nega-Naruto just ran free and then compare that type of seemingly-pointlessly-evil personality to that of the Zetsu. Anyways, these entities could only be created under certain circumstances that involve inyoton, which has that sort of reality-altering capability.

    After molding that personality, the Gedo simply waited until a human unwittingly channeled its will by unlocking the rinnegan. That sway would be enough to convince the chump (Madara) to first summon the Gedo, and slowly continue where the Older son's curse of hatred left off. The existence of both Zetsu indicate that the juubi's plan is going perfectly so far, since there are many avenues left for it to screw over Madara.

    ..Um.. I'll make this more convincing later. OUT!

    BONUS NONSENSE: The branches of Sage Mode were founded by descendants of the Younger Son. Frog and Snake Sages were not-yet-named clans, and the Slug Sage would be ascendant to the Senju clan. The Young Sons paths all seem to involve certain themes: Slug is most idealistic and desires peace above all, even without any real means to do so besides crushing power. Snake is most cynical, and seems to follow [what I believe to be] the Older Son's strategy- steal the other Son's power and attain the secret to jutsu/Rinnegan/Sage power/whatever. Frog is neutral, embraces the concept of "hermit", and follows the middle path of true moderateness. Y'know, the right one, apparently. Of Jiraiya and Naruto.

    EDIT 5/28: Just making room for my inevitable addition to this post later on when I can talk about 678 in a normal thread xD

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    I think you're right, Black Zetsu said he was the land. Juubi is the land, and everything else. Maybe they're related?

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Sanga Au79's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    If this holds true, then Madara is still control in terms of the Moons Eye and Juubi. If zetsu is the conscious form of the juubi via Hashiramas influence and black zetsu holds Madara's will that would mean Madara has some form of a living being with his chakra/energy/life force still attached (think oro curse seal but he created the entity he placed the seal on so he's in double control) which comes back to his current problem Obito THINKS he has of not being able to become the host of the juubi.

    But that may in fact be what Madara doesnt want to do or if he does want to become its host, the Zetsu creations are the ace up his sleeve while he's misdirecting everyone and black zetsu is going to be a key catalyst in the final move.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    Quote Originally Posted by chorns View Post
    I think you're right, Black Zetsu said he was the land. Juubi is the land, and everything else. Maybe they're related?
    "I am the land." That chapter made me proportionately excited to how miserable I felt when Madara zapped Black Zetsu into existence. The black rods and Zetsu seem to be similar in nature, and the black rods come from the Gedo. If they were Madara's will, wouldn't they come out of Madara >_> I wouldn't doubt it if we cut back to a flashback with Madara again, this time showing Madara stabbing himself with the black rods to see if they give him power like Hashirama's cells did. Suddenly he has a flash of insight into how to stop all the suffering in the world in a way that only the mighty, superior sharingan can do. 'All you have to do, child, is resurrect the jyuubi'. That, and it gives some sort of precedence for how the hell Madara 'figured out' how to use the Six Paths implants (so that Tobi could pass the knowledge down to Nagato).

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    madara connected to the gedo brought about the black rods due to his will influencing it? i like this theory but maybe the black zetsu is like a fail safe, in case obito decides to switch teams he has someone/himself to watch his back. i think youre on to something though, this is legit

    ---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 AM ----------

    omg crazy thought! sasuke killed the original white zetsu so do you think the black one is gonna be free to do and go where ever, whenever? he always seemed to be the one in control so do you think his new found freedom will affect what he does? i wanna see him fight, the only akatsuki that hasnt done jack yet

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member number12michael's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    A while ago I began an insistence that Zetsu (specifically the black Zetsu) is actually the big bad, and is actually actually the one pulling all the strings behind strings. For there to be one more bad guy "behind" everything isn't unbelievable, it happens all the time in the Narutoverse. My fan-wank theory had something to do with Zetsu's true plan for this war to be to spread himself across many places in the world, 'sewing the seeds' as it were for something involving the jyuubi. I had gotten it into my head that Zetsu was the consciousness of the jyuubi. I have no idea where to look for those posts, but I was proud of my insane ramblings.

    My original reasoning for this was that we know less about the black Zetsu than really anyone else in the series, and I thought I was dealt a horrible blow in that one chapter a lot of people didn't like. I thought "Since black Zetsu is so young, he couldn't be the one that started all this crap."

    Months later, it hit me. This is actually proof of my near-random idea. The before-mysterious "black rods" got the exact same cripplingly over-simplified origin as being "the will of Madara". My current idea is that what Madara said is bullshit. He has no idea what the black rods are and just like Nagato, has no idea what they really did to him when Gedo Mazo (presumably) synced with him. But the reader does have an idea of what happens: even the gentle-hearted Nagato looks fucking crazy with power, almost instantly. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that Madara was transformed from someone who, while being frightfully powerful, was only about as much of an aimless asshole as Sasuke until he summoned the Gedo and (probably involuntarily) synced with it. Then he suddenly 'got the great idea' to revive the jyuubi. This would make Madara look as if he was dicking around with something he didn't understand, and he would (FOR ONCE) have to eat his own words about people abusing forbidden jutsu and the like.

    My conclusion- the black rods are the will of the jyuubi, and the jutsu that Madara did to create Zetsu has nothing to do with "Madara's will", aside from that which overlaps with the jyuubi's own will. The black Zetsu is the black rods given human shape via Yin/Yang release. Further, since the white Zetsu all were grown from Gedo Mazo, and black Zetsu can merge with them, maybe he can merge with the Gedo itself, and by proxy, the jyuubi.

    I wonder when we'll see Zetsu next. Man he sure got beat awful quickly Either he's waiting for Ivysaur jyuubi to evolve into Venusaur jyuubi or I fear I may be wrong. Also this theory being right would make his appearance here all the more poignant.

    PS: This may also be why Tobi seems to have chosen not to sync with Gedo Mazo, and was instead attempting to get Sasuke to. He already noticed the influence from being merged with the white Zetsu (a creation of the Gedo), and didn't want to involuntarily lose anymore of his humanity than he already did. Or maybe he just couldn't. Idk lol

    Bonus off-topic prediction: Tobi has two distinct personalities, like Zetsu.

    The mask reveal was a red herring for his true 'traditional bad guy body modification reveal':

    Sasori - really an adorable bishie inside of a tank monster
    Deidara - fucking awesome chest mouth
    Hidan - didn't need one; he could survive decapitation and that's good enough for this list
    Kakuzu - the heart masks
    Zetsu -
    Itachi - the only clean one; makes sense since he's not a bad guy
    Kisame - special case, his 'reveal modification' wasn't under his clothes per se, but in his sword
    Pain - another 'different' one; Nagato, the 'real one' was the reveal itself
    Orochimaru - sheds his skin to reveal the White Snake
    Madara - had his armor blown off to reveal Hashirama's face
    Kabuto - Snake sage mode counts, I guess

    Tobi - Spiral Zetsu is still attached to him. When he was being cooky, fun Zetsu, that was spiral zetsu. It has since merged with him more completely, enabling him to spam the shit out of his version of Kamui. When his shirt is blown off completely we'll see his monstrous abdomen, probably complete with a talking Zetsu face that can move around on his body and cover his Obito face when it wants to take control.
    What about Konan ?
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    Quote Originally Posted by number12michael View Post
    What about Konan ?
    Well, "frequently made entirely of paper" was pretty damn awesome. Very few ninja can just ambiently 'become' something else. Only Suigetsu's ability springs to mind, and he pales in comparison to what Konan did. Orochimaru's transformation was actually pretty similar in function. Too bad Tsunade can't use Katsuya's split... to have tiny Tsunades running around, making tiny giant craters from tiny mega punches... I've gone on a tangent. I'll add Konan later, thanks for reminding me.

    ---------- Post added at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    madara connected to the gedo brought about the black rods due to his will influencing it? i like this theory but maybe the black zetsu is like a fail safe, in case obito decides to switch teams he has someone/himself to watch his back. i think youre on to something though, this is legit

    ---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 AM ----------

    omg crazy thought! sasuke killed the original white zetsu so do you think the black one is gonna be free to do and go where ever, whenever? he always seemed to be the one in control so do you think his new found freedom will affect what he does? i wanna see him fight, the only akatsuki that hasnt done jack yet
    If Obito's falling into Madara's lap was truly an accident, black Zetsu was Madara's only plan before Tobi took things on a collision course to wacky. This gives a lot more importance to a character that was seemingly beat so easily. Wonder if Zetsu would have gone out of his way to attack Konoha or declare ninja war. Naw, he would have stayed in the shadows until the jyuubi was resurrected, with nobody the wiser until they were all wiped out... Especially since there would have been nobody around to provoke Naruto into becoming a savior.

    I don't think that was the "original" white Zetsu, considering how black Zetsu was always explaining things to it that would be common knowledge between the two if they had been working together for decades. Instead I'm pretty sure black Zetsu has cycled through many white Zetsu over the course of his 'life', and thus has never been under any real constraints except that which may have been placed into his personality by Madara and/or the jyuubi.

    PS: Awesome name. Fun old game.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Wwallace's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    Seriously, this is one of those theories i would support till the end.

    Maybe this is a method to the juubi revive itself, if somehow someone gets the rinnegan(i dont know what to say here but, why and how you would know to summon the mazou?) they will get a bright moment and summon the mazou and will sync with it and get info on sage's stuff(or juubi's sutff)(or maybe the info goes down for generations), maybe after you sync with the mazou a plan of get all the bijuu's back into the mazou will appear in your mind but you wouldn't notice its not your plan(lets say, like koto) - I would say this i what happened with Madara And Nagato
    On going: Naruto(A/M) - One Piece(A/M) - Bleach(A/M)
    Done: Another(A) - Highschool Of The Dead(A/M) - Yosuga No Sora(A) - Sword Art Online(A) - Durarara(A) - The World God Only Knows(M)

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    You know, it sucks that this all has to end with a fight. It would be better if they handled it politically. Those who want to have Naruto as their leader, go left. For Sasuke, go right.

    I'm guessing Sasuke-land would have a population of about 5.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Wwallace View Post
    Seriously, this is one of those theories i would support till the end.

    Maybe this is a method to the juubi revive itself, if somehow someone gets the rinnegan(i dont know what to say here but, why and how you would know to summon the mazou?) they will get a bright moment and summon the mazou and will sync with it and get info on sage's stuff(or juubi's sutff)(or maybe the info goes down for generations), maybe after you sync with the mazou a plan of get all the bijuu's back into the mazou will appear in your mind but you wouldn't notice its not your plan(lets say, like koto) - I would say this i what happened with Madara And Nagato
    I've thought for a long time that Infinite Tsukuyomi is bullshit. It's the juubi's manipulation of Madara to bring all the beasts together- nothing more than a reflection of Madara's general fantasy of imposing his will on the world. Just like Madara/Tobi had their own plan behind Nagato's nuclear-peace plan. I hope Obito gets his way, tries to launch the jutsu, and it just doesn't work. And then is immediately killed by the fully resurrected juubi, which I can't help but feel will look like the Soul King in Bleach.

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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    Obito will definitely - or as I think - turn out to be related to Uzumaki through his mom or dad. How else will he completely side with Naruto? He already spewed cliches concerning how 'him and Naruto are alike'. This could be a portentous affirmation of cliched events to follow. I highly agree (only) on your off-topic post. Not sure about Shisui though.
    Last edited by shahdan; February 11, 2013 at 04:18 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    I, for one, really hope Obito sticks to his evil ways and is not influenced by Naruto. I'd like to see him die still being the villian. I don't want to sympathize with him. It'd be a nice change from Neji, Gaara, Pain, etc.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    Well since the Uchiha now have some sort of neurological damage the chance of Obito becoming nice again should be wiped out unless Naruto becomes a brain surgeon.
    Meh

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kiba's Avatar
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    this is a nice theory but too good thought out for masashi if you ask me

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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    i have nothing against your theory but i missed the part where you proved you were right as the topic suggests

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  20. #15
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: I WAS RIGHT - On Zetsu being the big bad

    If this is the case, then I would have expected Zetsu [black] to stay in the shadows during the war as oppose to engaging in direct combat. Now he's under the threat of death with little chance of reuniting with the Jyuubi.

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