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Translations: Gintama 506 (2)
I have developed a kind of theory, and question, for how claymores are made.
Primariluy, what we once knew was that claymore were created from the tissue and flesh of yoma, shape shifting demons that craved human flesh and could perfectly imitate humans and hide amongst them. Somehow, however, Claymore are also far more powerful than yoma, naturally having superior abilities to them in most ways. However, if the Claymore lost control of her yoma side, she would turn into an awakened, which is an even more powrful version of yoma, or so was said.
However, as many fans know now, the Yoma are not what they seem. It is revealed that the yoma are in fact parasites, monsters that invade a host's body and take control. This changed everything. Yoma infected humans and hacked into their minds, pupetting the body and accessing the host's memories, allowing all but perfect replication. However yoma will eventually where out the host body, forcing them to take over another on occassion. This further supported the false belief yoma could shape shift. Not only that, it also shows that the fear people had of people who were near a revealed yoma long enough might turn into one disturbingly founded, as it is possible the yoma could have avoided its death and possessed another.
However, this now throws into doubt what exactly the Claymores are. from what is shown, the yomas are not the creatures forms shown, but the form hidden. It is thus extremely unlikely that the tissue of the host bodies could be used in any process. However, it might show something far more unnerving about the claymores.
Ny the logic of what a yoma is, the question of what exactly is implanted inside of a claymore must be adressed. The theory, i propose, is that what is implanted is in fact a refined version of the yoma parasite. Perhaps requiring reworking yoma remains that have gestated in human hosts, which owuld partly explain the raw need for infecting humans to begin with, it may be that a new creature is born. Instead of a parasite, we have a symbiote. Technically, becoming a claymore has few if any adverse affects for the claymore itself, aside for parts mentally and physically scarring. the symbiote simply sits inside of the claymore, awaiting mental commands from the host in order ot transfer energy or repair damage. however it remains in a partly unfused state, rooted yet not one with the host. however, when the host goes past its limits, they lose control of the symbiote and it fully merges with their being, becoming an awakened. while iti s techncially an enormous benefit for the host in a physical way, the side effect of the merger causes the mind of the host to act much like how a yoma does. however, unlike a yoma, the awakened retain some amount of who they were before the yoma insanity took hold, memories or personality quirks, ableit twisted and warped. ultimately, however, it is unknown if the host of the symbiote truly needs to feed on human flesh, or if it is a reaction of the further icnreased merger.
this leads to two things in canon of the story to be questioned or acknowledged. perhaps miria, deneve, helen, and clare somehow, when they went pass their limits adn returned, somehow managed to communicate with their symbiotes that they did not want ot awaken and managed to retake control of them. if the powers of a claymore have this creature as the core of their abilities, it is not implausible.
secondly, we wold have to abandon the assumption that clare really is one quarter yoma. the theory itself states that the tissue imlanted is in fact a refined parasite, and thus the warriors are not half breeds, but simply enhanced variation of yoma. which may mean that when clare was implanted with 'teresa's flesh and blood' it could mean that the organization recovered teresa's body, dissected it and imlanted the otherwise undamaged sumbiote inside of clare, hoping the girl would exhibit the same or at least similar level of power. howver, while the symbiote obviosuly became active again, it had already bonded with a different host, so the connection between itself and clare is flawed and incomplete. this could also answer to the isntances of clare exhibiting enormous amounts of power, in particular when she awakened her limbs, allowing her to unleash speed and strength far greater than an old, experienced, and highly skilled awakened that not onyl trounced far more powerful claymore than clare herself, but had managed to survive a fight agaisnt not only isley, an abyssal one, but priscilla, if only because of isley's interference.
this idea can also pass over to the ressurrected number ones, whom became abyssal afterwards. what all of them had in common might be that their symbiotes were undamaged. which may explain why the violently mutilated cassandra was selected for the experiment over a number one with less wounded corpse. priscilla's hand was used to create some kind of either drug or compund that caused the symbiotes to come back to life, and thus start repairing the body and bring the host back to life.
at least that is my theory for it all. i actually hope iti s the truth, because it would open a lot more options and perhaps more drama. how would the claymore react knowing that a wriggling mass of yoki sat inside of their torsos.
A really interesting theory here, it is nicely put explained and all facts are provided and explained.
This theory could be quite plausible, the only problem that remains is that "symbiote" consciousness. The one thing we know is that yoma parasites are made from combining flesh of awakened and ordinary Askaram, it's still unknown to me how this symbiote gain consciousness at human level at all being that it was made from flesh of two totally different species ( I do consider awakened ones different species form Claymores as I consider Claymores different species form Humans ). Anyway, the important thing is that while those put in Humans overwhelm their mind and take control of them the ones used on Claymores do not, that must mean that those are specially made just for them.
But also there are reasons why this is not possible.
-if symbiote is put into their bodies in standard procedure ( open wound in front ) then why would they need to cut this much? Unless the very symbiote is like 3 meters long I don't see reason for that kind of wound, normally you would cut just small wound on designated place.
-your assumption is that Claymores are lied about symbiote, well if he is put inside them the way you describe then why Claymores can't find it? Even when their bodies are wide opened the symbiote cannot be seen or found, and that happened at least two times in manga - with Clare and Cynthia. The other explanation would be that it's to small to be seen ( which is absurd giving how much power it gives it has to be visible ) or in their brain ( this is also not possible giving there are no entry wounds anywhere and not to mention that MiB would never allowed this giving how unstable Claymores can become even in this state ).
-Miria's silence about hearing the whole truth from Rimuto also goes against this theory. You would expect that Miria, one of the ( despite what Goral says ) most informed and intelligent Claymores when it comes to things like this, after hearing this would say something or connect the dots between parasite and themselves. But since nothing was said about this subject we can assume here that there is no symbiote whatsoever present in Claymore bodies ( you would think that out of all people Miria wouldn't know this kind of thing, and the fact she didn't mention that to Rimoto proves this ).
I still think that they make parasites to infect only Humans and turn them into yoma, while making "weaker ones" whose bodies get destroyed after being killed and "stronger ones" whose bodies remained solid even after they kill them and they use organ transfer from these bodies to create Calymores as we know them.
primarily, the symbiotes are implanted when the claymore is in their adolescence. it does nto need to be a meter long for the body of the claymore would, of course, be much smaller, yet the amount of cutting still becuase the symbiote is probably of a decent size. also the question of whether or not something is removed from the body when the symbiote is implanted. is the creature small enough to simply put inside of the body, or do they need to amputate any of the subject's innards to do so? i theorize that the symbiote would be implanted in the upper torso of the subject, and perhaps it merges with the organs there.
though i do add that i highly doubt that the claymore would go peaking into the insides of themselves or their comrades. not to mention they pinned clare shut before her torso burst open.
i wouldn't doubt that miria suspects such a possiblity. then again, she did not inquired the organization leader on how intelligent the dragons are. from what she likely presumed, that with the organization dead in those lands, the influence of the mainland war would no longer be an issue as she did not demand any more information. far as she was concerned, the moment his head hit the floor, and the monsters were allowed to die at last, it was over. perhaps a somewhat foolish thought though. she had no intention of sharing this dark truth with anyone, so why increase the burden by learning a few more details than needed? the rality, however, is she already knew that, and the moment was for us readers more than anything, if done is a rather sensible way.
awakening is obviously more akin to maturation than becoming something utterly different. whether claymore to awakened or askaram to dragon kin, it is maturation. in fact, that might be the total case for askaram. it is plausible that their 'awakened' forms are in fact their adult shapes, their normal states more of an adolescent stage. perhaps this two hundred year life thing is how long it takes them to turn into those giant monsters.
and how the parasites become intelligent is quite obvious. they gained sapient itnelligence the moment they invade a body and hack into the conciousness of the victim. kinda like a copy paste type thing, replicating the basic patterns of sapient itnelligence. a yoma acting on its true mentality is actually rather base in its cunning to begin with.
from what we know is that the yoma obviosuly retain some level of sapient thought as they shift through bodies, retaining memories from previous hosts. they can shift through hosts independently as well. however, considering the state most yoma end up by the hands of claymore, it is unlikely that there is anything left alive to the parasite. considering decaptiation and destruction of the head, obviously, it seems, where the parastie resides, then they would not be able to gather nearly enough material if they relied on living parasites. ot to mention that humans have constantly been exposed to not only yoma tissue and blood, but awakened tissue and blood, without any side effects at all, it is unlikely that the tissues themselves other than the parasites are of any use. especially true for the yoma, as they pretty much drain the bodies they possess continuously, relying consuming tissue from humans to sustain the body. if the invasive creature dead tissue adn blood had any effect, there would be some level of effecto n people being sprayed with yoma blood. ass there is not stigma for being covered in demon viscera, the dead tissue is a very unlikely thing.
considering also ti is the yoma's midn directing the alterations of the body, growing of fangs and claws, extending limbs, so on. and that any remaining human characteristics within the host cannot do anything. there seems to be a horrific hint that the hosts might still be aware of theri surroundings, as shown when the yoma that infected Raki's brother began weeping.
as stated, dead yoam tissue cannot do anything, cause its dead. and the body of the hosts are unlikely to have anythign beneficial to them because of the destructive effect the parasite has on the body. however then we have the claymores, who in fact have no negative, destructive aspects to theri physiology, despite the nature of the yoma infection being destructive to the body, do not exhibit yoma like behavior or insanity until they awaken, about to awaken, or simply suffering from a human derived madness, such as Octavia. which makes it doubtful that normal yoma flesh is used, as the result would in fact just be a yoma. something that has been refined and altered perhaps, thus a symbiote. soemthign that links to the mind of the claymore, but does not take over and is mostly dormant aside for certain alterations. this mindless state also explains why the body remains as it is after the surgery. far as the symbiote knows, that is the natural state of the body. hell, the body actually grows up that way, becauser remember, generalyl claymores are juveniles when they first get the surgery.
it seems more and more unlikely that this is a simle ting of implanting yhe yoma tissue. cosndering what we know of yoma infection. if they were implanted by the parasitic tissue as it is, it would simply overwhelm the hsot adn turn them into a yoma. if they could use the tissue of the yoma hosts, it would probably create a far weaker creature or maybe no effect at all. it is likely that the host is continuously drained as the yoma inahbits the body, all of the sustenance being focused to the parasite, as with all parasites, and the yoma maintaining a healthy outward appearance for the host to avoid detection.
actually, it makes it even more likely miria would say nothing or inquire nothing. think of it this way. she has to bear the burden of knowing the truth of the yoma. can she realluy stand total confirmation that she, and all claymores, are in fact not half breeds, but just more advanced forms of yoma? in the end, the process is the mature and juvenile asrakam tissue merging and being implanted into a human host. if the parasites really left anythign significt in the tissues of the theri hosts, it would make switching between them far, far more difficult.
Hopefully we will see what a yoma parasite looks like without its human host body, its said a yoma is made by combing the flesh of a 1st form Asarakam (Dragon kin) and the awakened form Asarakam.
So when you combine flesh from the 2 different Dragon kin types we know of you get a parasite which goes into a human to make a yoma.
Last edited by TimeMask; January 06, 2013 at 03:13 PM.
i believe the head of the org said it was a wriggling mass, likely grotesque i would say.
it seems that they use the humans to gestitate the yoma before having warriors kill them. perhaps this allows them to create something that cna bei mplanted into a host without harmful sideffects. obviously the yomas living inside of humans and gestating in them is a totally required part of the process. whether or not my symbiote theory is indeed correct, that is sitll a needed part of the process. perhaps it allows them to rengineer the tissue into the symbiote, and allow a process where the symbitoe reflects the mind of theh ost instead of gaining its very own.
further evidence of this is how the awakened often look. warriors with distinction in their mentality, personality, and abilties often have the stronger, more unique and or specialized forms. wild horse octavia is a sure sign, her body replicating her name. cassandra is an itnersting example. the body shows her tilted mentality, and her primary shown method of attack is grotesque variations of her head that attempt to devour her foes, referencing her nickname as well.
looking at yoma, or perhaps even warriors that do not remain human long enough to make their won distinction, we see there is almsot not variation. yoma are all typically human shaped with feral features, albeit some are winged. awakened of said category are generally less distinct or personalized.
further evidence exists it seems, thanks to the destroyer itself. after it exposed portion of its being was destroyed, its true form is a shapeless mass. it has no mind, so it has no distinct shape except what form is given or shared. and once it got some level of motivation, it shwoed that its pwoers were likely on par to that of priscilla, going so far as to not only overpower, but to actually assimilate her and break he down, something its spikes had originally failed to do.
what i like about thsi theory is that if it is true, it change the status quo. completely. which would explain how miria sought no more information. in the end, it seems that claymores are not in fact half breed. they are, if theory is correct. simply a more advanced variation of yoma.
though i still have a rather big hole in the theory i think. if yoma are parasites, and claymores and awakened simply more advanced yoma, then what is the abyssal feeders? perhaps a further extracted awakened symbiote? or, another theory could be that they are, in fact, failed experiments in the creation of the claymores. it is easy enough to simply say these monsters are made from awakened flesh as a cover story, as to a claymore it would seem a possible thing. however the org realized that, while they may not have been useful for the war for more reasons than can be counted, thye could use them to finally deal with the oversized elephants in the room that were the abyssal ones. i doubt the ones the Org themselves took orders from were going to tolerate the continued existence of demi god like yoki entities any longer.
either way, their existence seems to put some doubt to my theory. albeit i think my theory is strong and in factor to the canon of the series. trust me, i have worked thsi theory out sense it was revealed that the yoma re parasites.
Anything can happen in any story if the writer wills it too. However in my experience the most successful stories follow some kind of logical approach.
I really like this theory; it’s very logical and fits with a lot of what we already know, although I have always thought the process might have even more to it.
The idea of the ‘parasite’ gestating inside the human host is an interesting one; but I would like to propose an even more grotesque scenario if I may.
Ok; one question people have raised is this; ‘why do the Yoma parrot the organisation’s lies about their existence as predators that have been around since time amoral?’ I think this has a bearing on if the ‘does Yoma parasite have a brain question?’ It may also explain the abysmal feeders.
We know that essentially the ‘parasite’ is a combination of Askaram and Awakened Askaram flesh. Now I doubt that they use brain tissue, as that would certainly kill both of the organisations ‘prisoners’, mainly because if you destroy the head even an awakened dies.
But we’ve always assumed that the Yoma parasite must have it’s own brain or psyche prior to implantation. So my question would be ‘where does this ‘brain’ come from if it’s just random, or seemingly, pieces of flesh scrapped off two similar beings?’
So ‘why do Yoma parasites parrot the organisations lies and added to that why do most parasites continue to use only simple extensions of the human form when awakened can theoretically have 70 thousand fingers?
The excuse could simply be that a parasite can only manipulate the body in it’s original form; however if that were the case then why can some grow wings; additions I might add that haven’t even been show on Askaram or their awakened forms either.
The theory above is about asking the question, is the key component that produces a claymore a symbiote? Do I agree? I think it’s a distinctly possibility.
My additions to the theory are a little complicated and touch on some of the points raised, but it requires backtracking somewhat; and will start with the Yoma introduction of the Yoma themselves to the continent.
My first question would be who came first? The Yoma or the Claymore? We know that the main evidence that Yoma only existed recently is the fact that a distance village at the edge of the continent didn’t know what Yoma were.
This also tells us that someone has been telling these lies; why tell them anything? I think to prepare the seeds for the mentality of the Yoma, as the first step in creating a Yoma is the host. (Isn’t it also convenient that even Yoma that have never seen a Claymore before refer to them as their nature enemy?)
That, I believe, is the first step in creating a Yoma.
(Appx.1). The second step in creating a Yoma is the host. (Answers the ‘brain’ and ‘parroted lies’ question) Imagine that the Yoma is essentially just a collection of nerves and impulses capable of merging with another entity and rewriting DNA, but has no mind. It would acquire a ‘brain’ by copying the personality of the human host.
If a friend, or his companions had told the ‘host’ the lies of the organisation, he might believe it.
Imagine what would happen if the host is convinced that he has been possessed, for lack of a better term, by such a creature that eats flesh and can change it’s body? It might actually result in the human being transformed into that creature; because the host is convinced he now is. Meaning that the 1st host would have a symbiotic relationship with the symbiote because it would be essentially ‘himself.’
(appx.2) Once the new Yoma changes bodies it then becomes the parasite we know, because it will in a body that it was not in originally in. By this point the new Yoma (mark II) would be like the Yoma we know.
This may explain the different tactics, intelligence and the ‘wings’ some yoma possess. Depending on the personality of the original host and their imagination. Why some Yoma are loners and others are dumb, some are intelligent and other stealthy or hunt in packs. It’s all to do with the original human mind copied; other’s people are simply controlled till death.
I believe that the Yoma symbiote may actually be placed in the back of the head to facilitate brain copying.
Claymore creation; what this thread is about.
It might be possible that this is the closest point that the Yoma flesh becomes a true symbiote as it has no control over it’s host. As apex.1 it is one with the host and with appx.2 it is controlling the host.
If rather than the mind of the yoma but the ability to blend with human systems, and alter them, is what is required then it is possible that only samples of altered human body tissue is needed to make a claymore. In other words a first generation yoma cannot be used, but one that has changed hosts.
Most likely a Yoma (appx.2) has its developed brain removed to reinstate (appx.1) characteristics, but with (appx.2) advancements.
By placing the yoma flesh inside the abdomen, it only bonds with the body rather than directly connecting with the brain.
Of course when a warrior awakens the entire body and brain becomes affected, or one if you will.
This leads me to the abysmal feeders; I believe that they are infused with the pre-Yoma Askaram/Awakened flesh into normal girls who have had their eyes plucked out and sealed in a dark room to create their psychology (in other words they are torture victims) creating instinctual behaviour. Without the ability to see themselves such a person would have no self-image meaning that they would change their bodies on a whim and distort it. Only caring about their heads.
There’s more but I don’t have the time. C u soon guys.
i think the main reason why they parrot those beliefs is that they believe it themselves. it is possible that they are not truly sapient creatures, only copying sapience from their hosts. with only the memories of theri victims, they put together the idea that they really are ancient, perfect predators of humanity.
i think it is obvious that yoma came first. the organization likely experimented and managed to create the yoma, but not only did they prove uncontrollable and treacherous, their power levels were not even ocmparable to ashrakram. further experimentation founded a unnerving fact. that if gestated in humans, the yoma parasite can be reworked into something similar and yet different. the results not only produced a far superior and controllable, for the most part, specimen, but created a creature very much like the ashrakram. they have two stages, a weaker humanoid one and a stronger, deadly monstrous one. however they realized this was not enough, for not onyl were awakened forms as uncontrollable as yoma, their abilities far surpassed them.
the organization then realized they needed further experimentation. however it was obvious that they needed not only needed a experimental site away from the homeland, but a steady and large supply of humans to use for gestation. then was discovered the continent, off the coast and unware of the war or the existence of lands beyond. quickly and cleverly, they released yoma into the land, and soon after came claiming they could stop these new monsters.
which might show an even darker side to the org. it seems not only was the land a labratory, but a farm. harvesting yoma parasites and likely sending them back to the homeland in order to continue producing warriors. but i am nearly entirely certain that the org is far from done with this land if that is true. not only is it far away from the war at the homeland, thus removing worry that the enemy would interrupt, but it is a excellent place to harvest yoma. they need to take control again in order to keep their primary weapons.
i do think that the claymore have less to do with dna and more to do with psychology. think of it this way. a low rank claymore without her own nickname or special skills will turn into a generic awakened. however more powerful skilled claymore iwll gain nickname and special skills. and often their awakened form allow some variation or superior form of their abilities, skills, and preferences when they were claymores. at times their bodies literally take on the forms akin to their nicknames. such as the silver eyed lion, who is an especially intersting case as while most awakened are chitinous ando r reptilian, his form is mamalian. even wild horse octava has a chitinous shape.