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View Poll Results: Do you think kishi cheated you !?

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Thread: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

  1. #46
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Hakuteiken

    Under normal circumstances his realms where not right there next to him. Tobi can choose his moment. For Nagato to keep them constantly there and acive.... It would be harder. Then even if they are it would still not help. Activate Izanagi and then kill him. So what he get's hit at the same time? Its irrelevant. He pops back and Nagato is dead.

    Itachi already knows about his intangibility. Thing is he needs to fight, to use jutsus. Tobi can outlast him easy(using jutsus himself). Think about it Itachi needs to keep distance, use Susano. In a melee fight if Tobi lands a finger on him its over, this would force Itachi to pop ribets Susano and use long range jutsus+clones. Even Minato almost whent by, by. He is to hax.
    Then in the end... Izanagi again. 5 to 10 minutes. Itachi can't posibly win.

    Also i did notice you 2 where talking about manipulation but it was also about power levels. Itachi was.... Somewhat manipulated in the sense of what happened to Sasuke. Tobi knew EXACLY what Itachi was going to do and alowed it. He knew that Itachi plans to die for Sasuke. Then he got Sasuke. He manipulated him in the sense that he used him as a tool (in exchange for his help in murdering the clan) and then in the even got another tool in Sasuke's form(by using Itachi on Sasuke). Itachi did place a trap in Sasuke asuming this could happen but in the end Tobi got the better deal. But yeah he did not manipulated him trough force. Itachi was probably the only one that made Obito uneasy.

    Nagato on the other hand is even more clear how he was manipulated after curent chapters. Obito whent to him first when Konan and the other guy was there and offered him to answer on how to save the world. Nagato almost whent with it if not for his friend, Yahiko. Later after he died Nagato whent before "Madara" and accepted the deal completly. He was manipulated true but it was in part because of Nagato ofered himself completly.
    How could he choose the moment? Nagato has a change of heart and decides to take out Tobi, and to do that, he could be the one that ambushes his opponent.
    Though, this intangibility thing is a bit irritating in the end. Basically, only Kakashi could defeat Tobi at this moment, then, since only he could overcome the dimensional movements he is making. Other than that, Tobi could choose to stay intangible, in defensive mode, and he is assured not to die.

    Itachi knew that Amaterasu wasn't going to take out Tobi. He just placed it so that Sasuke would always be wary of that guy, as Itachi used a lethal technique on him. He also knew he could possibly get manipulated by the likes of him. It's not that Tobi directly manipulated Itachi. He just saw an opportunity in Itachi's moves, and took advantage of it after Itachi's death. Getting Sasuke is hardly the end result of a manipulation. Itachi could have killed Sasuke in the massacre. It wasn't Tobi's will that Sasuke lived.

    And I know, Nagato was manipulated. That's stated first by Minato, who said to Naruto that Pain was being manipulated because of his traumatic experiences. I just don't get why this had anything to do with power. It's a manipulation of words. Though, in a way, I also wonder how you can manipulate someone through force. Manipulation is making people do whatever you want without them realizing it at all. Nagato was in contact with Madara-identity of Tobi, and he was at least unaware of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. That's how manipulation works.

  2. #47
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: I feel Kishi betrayed us !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    No, he doesn't. His Genjutsu is probably no rival to that of Itachi's. And Nagato? How could Tobi possibly defeat Nagato in a battle? Konan came up with a great plan to defeat him, and Tobi used Izanagi to save himself from a certain death. Nagato was leagues above Konan, so, you are underestimating Nagato here a lot. Itachi was never even manipulated by that masked man. He only agreed to help him get his revenge. He had his own intentions as always.



    Ah, I see. My bad. I misinterpreted this.
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v09/c078/10.html
    It looks like Hiashi tried to say he didn't care about her since Hanabi was already more skilled than her. Uh. The kid was defeating her older sister when she was 7
    Does hiashi has a choice? Hiashi and neji's dad are twins. But just because hiashi born ahead of neji's dad in a couple of seconds, hiashi already destined to become the next head of the hyuga's clan. Why? Because he's the eldest. They can't change that. That's what their destiny really is. Well, maybe naruto can. He'll going to break that destiny by marrying hinata.

    Itachi : nagato, you possess the rinnegan and I possess the MS, together we can do everything.
    Nagato : yeah, but in the end, both of us was being used.

    How do you interpret that? And they're also talking about their knowledge on akatsuki or obito/tobi/madara's plan. In the end, both of them doesn't know the true plan of obito and they're being used/manipulated. I never understimate nagato at all. But I think you're the one who understimating obito. He's the true boss and the true harbinger of the ninja world. He's strong enough to used and manipulated both of them.

  3. #48
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: I feel Kishi betrayed us !!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Does hiashi has a choice? Hiashi and neji's dad are twins. But just because hiashi born ahead of neji's dad in a couple of seconds, hiashi already destined to become the next head of the hyuga's clan. Why? Because he's the eldest. They can't change that. That's what their destiny really is. Well, maybe naruto can. He'll going to break that destiny by marrying hinata.

    Itachi : nagato, you possess the rinnegan and I possess the MS, together we can do everything.
    Nagato : yeah, but in the end, both of us was being used.

    How do you interpret that? And they're also talking about their knowledge on akatsuki or obito/tobi/madara's plan. In the end, both of them doesn't know the true plan of obito and they're being used/manipulated. I never understimate nagato at all. But I think you're the one who understimating obito. He's the true boss and the true harbinger of the ninja world. He's strong enough to used and manipulated both of them.
    Ah, I figured that out, too, but at least, Hanabi is also from the Main family, therefore, she is a bit different in that respect to Neji. Hizashi and Neji had zero chance to become the head no matter how strong they were, but Hanabi is just waiting for Hinata to die, I guess

    The only reason Itachi joined Akatsuki was Sasuke. He wasn't really interested in what Pain initially introduced as their plan, either. Just because he wasn't aware what Tobi was thinking doesn't make it a manipulation. Itachi was well aware of the fact that those gangsters were going to take out the Bijuu on their own, with his presence changing the outcome little.
    Obito indeed manipulated Nagato, but as I said above, it's nothing to do with strength. Manipulation is only available through words getting through one, and he used the words good enough to manipulate him.

  4. #49
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    For itachi, his last-ditch effort was failed. And acknowledging nagato as invincible doesn't mean tobi included himself. Tobi is a liar and a pro in manipulating someone.
    He was being honest, that's all. He didn't mean Itachi could kill him through Sasuke he meant that had he revealed his true intentions, Itachi would kill him before. You don't need to believe but please, don't go saying weird things like he is stronger than them. He is having trouble against Naruto & B while Nagato owned them in seconds. I told you, in both feat and facts they are superior.

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  6. #50
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Again, Obito didn't have to be superior in terms of strength to manipulate Nagato. If you are a strong-minded person, no matter how strong a person is, you won't come to accept the ideas he is speaking of. Instead, you'd do everything in your possession to stop that opponent and if you failed, you'd die for that purpose along the way.
    When Obito first approached the Ame orphans, he didn't showcase his power. I believe that was the case after Yahiko's death, as well. Showing someone power won't make them obedient necessarily, and since Nagato lost everything he had in his parents and his friend, his dream, he'd definitely die rather than become someone's pawn by force.

  7. #51
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    He is having trouble against Naruto & B while Nagato owned them in seconds. I told you, in both feat and facts they are superior.
    Just saying, all Naruto in Bijuu Mode ( thus way stronger than the one Nagato faced ), Gaikage, Kakashi and Bee managed to do is break Obito's mask, so by feats and facts Obito is superior to Itachi, considering also he managed to do it using only a Rin'negan power ( Gedo path ) and not all six like Nagato did.

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  9. #52
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Just saying, all Naruto in Bijuu Mode ( thus way stronger than the one Nagato faced ), Gaikage, Kakashi and Bee managed to do is break Obito's mask, so by feats and facts Obito is superior to Itachi, considering also he managed to do it using only a Rin'negan power ( Gedo path ) and not all six like Nagato did.
    By definition, Obito doesn't have the Rinnegan. He just has his MS and intangibility, since he didn't have the Rinnegan before Nagato died. Also, intangibility is a confusing ability. Madara is probably way too more powerful than Obito is, but still, he can't hurt him directly because of that intangibility.

  10. #53
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    @Hakuteiken

    So you are asuming that Nagato decides it? Come on now that is unfair. Both sides should be made aware of the situation. What you are telling me that Obito could go over there to shake Nagato's hand in friendship and Nagato drains him completly of chakra instantly? Yeah he could do that but that is another thing.

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi knew that Amaterasu wasn't going to take out Tobi.
    This is a big asumtion. Tobi stated that the only reason he is alive is becasue he keps some secrets from Itachi (probably Izanagi). Going by the manga the biggest posibility here is that Itachi did asume its going to kill Tobi.

    Quote Quote:
    He just saw an opportunity in Itachi's moves, and took advantage of it after Itachi's death. Getting Sasuke is hardly the end result of a manipulation. Itachi could have killed Sasuke in the massacre. It wasn't Tobi's will that Sasuke lived.
    In the end this is a form of manipulation. Not mentaly exacly as he did to Nagato and Obito but he did use Itachi and got in the end what he needed and Itachi lost Sasuke to him. Even when Itachi was talking to Sasuke/Naruto (when in ET mode) he admits to be wrong to try to solve this by himself.

    Nagato was most defenetly manipulated trough "hope". Tobi gave Nagato a way out, a way to "save the world". Nagato did not had an answer and was lost. Perfect time for Tobi to do his thing. Obviously had nothing to do with power. Nagato whent to Tobi for help of his own free will(remember Tobi stating he will be at that place at the same hour, each day or something like that).

  11. #54
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Hakuteiken

    So you are asuming that Nagato decides it? Come on now that is unfair. Both sides should be made aware of the situation. What you are telling me that Obito could go over there to shake Nagato's hand in friendship and Nagato drains him completly of chakra instantly? Yeah he could do that but that is another thing.
    Well, of course, since it's not something that happened in the manga, it's an assumption. But why should Nagato warn Tobi that he was going to take him out? Tsunade was going to kill Orochimaru by pretending to be healing his arms and bringing his Ninjutsu back.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    This is a big asumtion. Tobi stated that the only reason he is alive is becasue he keps some secrets from Itachi (probably Izanagi). Going by the manga the biggest posibility here is that Itachi did asume its going to kill Tobi.
    Itachi knew what Izanagi and Izanami were, so, it was most likely Tobi's assumption that Itachi didn't know anything about the kinjutsu. If Itachi was sure of it, he was going to take Tobi out himself, no matter how strongly he intended to die in Sasuke's hands. He would probably abandon that for a higher purpose like killing the evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    In the end this is a form of manipulation. Not mentaly exacly as he did to Nagato and Obito but he did use Itachi and got in the end what he needed and Itachi lost Sasuke to him. Even when Itachi was talking to Sasuke/Naruto (when in ET mode) he admits to be wrong to try to solve this by himself.

    Nagato was most defenetly manipulated trough "hope". Tobi gave Nagato a way out, a way to "save the world". Nagato did not had an answer and was lost. Perfect time for Tobi to do his thing. Obviously had nothing to do with power. Nagato whent to Tobi for help of his own free will(remember Tobi stating he will be at that place at the same hour, each day or something like that).
    True. Itachi's moves, though well planned, didn't work out as he intended to. Not because he was manipulated by Obito perhaps, but he failed, trying to do it on his own and ended up giving an advantage to Obito.

    That's what I meant, as well.
    I wonder what would happen if they had succesfully got Hachibi and Kyuubi, as well. Nagato mentioned about creating a new jutsu. He didn't say a word of Juubi or Infinite Tsukuyomi. He probably had no idea about the plan. Obito would most likely try to take Nagato out once the Bijuu were gathered.

  12. #55
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: I feel Kishi betrayed us !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Ah, I figured that out, too, but at least, Hanabi is also from the Main family, therefore, she is a bit different in that respect to Neji. Hizashi and Neji had zero chance to become the head no matter how strong they were, but Hanabi is just waiting for Hinata to die, I guess

    The only reason Itachi joined Akatsuki was Sasuke. He wasn't really interested in what Pain initially introduced as their plan, either. Just because he wasn't aware what Tobi was thinking doesn't make it a manipulation. Itachi was well aware of the fact that those gangsters were going to take out the Bijuu on their own, with his presence changing the outcome little.
    Obito indeed manipulated Nagato, but as I said above, it's nothing to do with strength. Manipulation is only available through words getting through one, and he used the words good enough to manipulate him.
    But so is neji's dad. They're brothers after all. Their so called destiny failed because of neji. Damn, that man is no doubt one of the gifted hyuga's of all. So neji's dad should be the head of the hyuga instead of hiashi. But watevah.

    Itachi said that obito is his master, the one who teach him the power of his MS. And also, obito is the one who told nagato about the rinnegan's power, the six paths power. So maybe obito has the tools to defeat them. If not, then what's the point for staying in the akatsuki if itachi can defeat obito? Itachi needs obito's help to murder his clan, itachi knows obito's power, he even said that he was his master. So making a deal to obito to help him in his plan in exchange for sasuke and konoha doesn't mean that itachi had the power to defeat obito, it's just itachi's plan to save sasuke and the konoha to the likes of obito. And it doesn't matter if obito agreed on itachi's deal, t'was never meant that he,s afraid to itachi, obito just needs itachi service and power.

    And rinnegan isn't an ordinary power, so someone needs a power to manipulate a rinnegan user.

    And remember, for itachi and nagato, obito is madara. So they really believed that madara is still alive. And well, obito is really Tue second version of madara. T'was obito who told itachi and nagato about the MS/EMs/rinnegan's power. So obito, manipulated and used them through words, knowledge and power as the real madara.

  13. #56
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: I feel Kishi betrayed us !!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    But so is neji's dad. They're brothers after all. Their so called destiny failed because of neji. Damn, that man is no doubt one of the gifted hyuga's of all. So neji's dad should be the head of the hyuga instead of hiashi. But watevah.

    Itachi said that obito is his master, the one who teach him the power of his MS. And also, obito is the one who told nagato about the rinnegan's power, the six paths power. So maybe obito has the tools to defeat them. If not, then what's the point for staying in the akatsuki if itachi can defeat obito? Itachi needs obito's help to murder his clan, itachi knows obito's power, he even said that he was his master. So making a deal to obito to help him in his plan in exchange for sasuke and konoha doesn't mean that itachi had the power to defeat obito, it's just itachi's plan to save sasuke and the konoha to the likes of obito. And it doesn't matter if obito agreed on itachi's deal, t'was never meant that he,s afraid to itachi, obito just needs itachi service and power.

    And rinnegan isn't an ordinary power, so someone needs a power to manipulate a rinnegan user.

    And remember, for itachi and nagato, obito is madara. So they really believed that madara is still alive. And well, obito is really Tue second version of madara. T'was obito who told itachi and nagato about the MS/EMs/rinnegan's power. So obito, manipulated and used them through words, knowledge and power as the real madara.
    I think they were said to be pretty equal, not just by looks, but also in terms of power, so, he was capable of being the head if he was allowed to

    Apparently, Itachi just appeared to be helping him, when in reality, it was already decided that he was going to go through with the massacre. I don't think Itachi needed any sort of help from Obito in killing off the clan members. If the elders thought he wasn't good enough to do it on his own, he wouldn't be assigned to such a task as a single person. He just negotiated with Tobi to save the rest of the village.

    Of course, it goes without doubt that they wouldn't be manipulated by the words of someone who is just trash, but he doesn't necessarily have to be superior is what I meant.

  14. #57
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    He was being honest, that's all. He didn't mean Itachi could kill him through Sasuke he meant that had he revealed his true intentions, Itachi would kill him before. You don't need to believe but please, don't go saying weird things like he is stronger than them. He is having trouble against Naruto & B while Nagato owned them in seconds. I told you, in both feat and facts they are superior.
    Being honest? Obito acted as a boss at that scene. His order to nagato indicate that he's superior to him, '' pain, get the kyubi, so that my power, uchiha madara's power, will be blah blah''

    Trouble? But just like uchiha blood said, kakashi/gai /bee/hachibi/naruto/kyubi's attacks only break obito's mask.

    You can't change the fact that obito is their boss, for itachi, obito is his master, for nagato, obito is somehow his master. The one who told him the true power of his rinnegan.

    For them, obito is the legendary madara. Obito has alot of knowledge/info of the uchiha clan from madara. He knows a bunch of uchiha's jutsu than itachi. So itachi did honestly believed that obito is madara and he's no match to fight that man.

    Itachi's statement to sasuke : you? Will gonna kill madara? s. And '' sasuke, you must surpass obito este madara.''

    So itachi admitted that he never surpass his legendary master.

    ---------- Post added at 10:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I think they were said to be pretty equal, not just by looks, but also in terms of power, so, he was capable of being the head if he was allowed to

    Apparently, Itachi just appeared to be helping him, when in reality, it was already decided that he was going to go through with the massacre. I don't think Itachi needed any sort of help from Obito in killing off the clan members. If the elders thought he wasn't good enough to do it on his own, he wouldn't be assigned to such a task as a single person. He just negotiated with Tobi to save the rest of the village.

    Of course, it goes without doubt that they wouldn't be manipulated by the words of someone who is just trash, but he doesn't necessarily have to be superior is what I meant.
    Oh come on, does itachi's fb/genjutsu to sasuke shows that itachi approached obito to help him to kill the uchiha clan? T'was itachi's plan to murder his clan and not obito. He negotiate to obito to kill the entire uchiha in return, he'll let sasuke and the konoha to peace or itachi will help obito on his plan.

    But obito is really superior than itachi and nagato. They were being used and manipulated because obito has the tools and knowledge above than itachi and nagato.

  15. #58
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    @Hakuteiken

    Quote Quote:
    Well, of course, since it's not something that happened in the manga, it's an assumption. But why should Nagato warn Tobi that he was going to take him out? Tsunade was going to kill Orochimaru by pretending to be healing his arms and bringing his Ninjutsu back.
    Because asuming Tobi is forcing Nagato to do it then he would not be stupid enough to do something that would get him killed. Asuming he would go before Nagato he would be intangible or ready to do so.
    Then asuming Nagato jumps him with his realms all Tobi needs to do is go underground, warp away after he get's enough distance and the return at any time and take him down. Nagato would have no idea how get to Tobi and Tobi can get him at any time.

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi knew what Izanagi and Izanami were, so, it was most likely Tobi's assumption that Itachi didn't know anything about the kinjutsu. If Itachi was sure of it, he was going to take Tobi out himself, no matter how strongly he intended to die in Sasuke's hands. He would probably abandon that for a higher purpose like killing the evil.
    If you ask me Kishi did not know what he is going to end up needing Izanami...

    Anyway we don't know what it was. Could be anything. No indication it was Izanagi, we just asumed it was. Perhaps it was a Zetsu clone that was chating with Sasuke. We all know how those can replicate the original.

    Ok it was not Izanami. Over here his mask does not disapear:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/397/5

    if it was a Izanami "resurection" that the mask would disapear and would pop on his face back. Also if it was activated after the mask was on the ground Tobi would end up having some horible damage but he was at 100%(costume and all). Its a mistery what he did there.

    Anyway i go with Tobi on this:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/397/9

    It was an atempt to take him down. Of coruse who knows, can't say for sure. In the page i linked Tobi even states "or perhaps to keep me away".

    Quote Quote:
    I wonder what would happen if they had succesfully got Hachibi and Kyuubi, as well. Nagato mentioned about creating a new jutsu. He didn't say a word of Juubi or Infinite Tsukuyomi. He probably had no idea about the plan. Obito would most likely try to take Nagato out once the Bijuu were gathered.
    Well he would not allow Nagato to ruin his last chanse to get it on with Rin that is most defenetly sure...
    He must have had something planed to take him out.
    Last edited by xXan; January 08, 2013 at 10:23 AM.

  16. #59
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Being honest? Obito acted as a boss at that scene. His order to nagato indicate that he's superior to him, '' pain, get the kyubi, so that my power, uchiha madara's power, will be blah blah''

    Trouble? But just like uchiha blood said, kakashi/gai /bee/hachibi/naruto/kyubi's attacks only break obito's mask.

    You can't change the fact that obito is their boss, for itachi, obito is his master, for nagato, obito is somehow his master. The one who told him the true power of his rinnegan.

    For them, obito is the legendary madara. Obito has alot of knowledge/info of the uchiha clan from madara. He knows a bunch of uchiha's jutsu than itachi. So itachi did honestly believed that obito is madara and he's no match to fight that man.

    Itachi's statement to sasuke : you? Will gonna kill madara? s. And '' sasuke, you must surpass obito este madara.''

    So itachi admitted that he never surpass his legendary master.
    Ah well, I won't go with that if I were you. I mean I wouldn't use leadership as an indication of their power. Because Kishimoto already confirmed that Nagato is indeed the leader of the Akatsuki and Obito was nothing more than a collaborator with the Akatsuki.
    Where did he say that ? In a special book called "Character relationship chart". So going by YOUR word, Nagato is stronger because he's "Boss".

    He also Never ordered him, simply said, "you'd best hurry". Pain said " I could go whenever I want".

    In the scene you mentioned, he said "we will soon achieve OUR goal" Not "My goal". But that doesn't really matter since Kishimoto confirmed who's boss. And Itachi didn't know he was Obito, but he himself acknowledged Itachi to be stronger.

  17. #60
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Ridiculous topic. Naruto was a type of Genius since day 1. The only difference between Sasuke, Neji and others like them is that they knew that from the start and were being treated in that regard. Self-confidence and support from others were the key factors for Naruto to become an individual such as his current self.

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