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Translations: Bleach 600 by BadKarma
Though, this intangibility thing is a bit irritating in the end. Basically, only Kakashi could defeat Tobi at this moment, then, since only he could overcome the dimensional movements he is making. Other than that, Tobi could choose to stay intangible, in defensive mode, and he is assured not to die.
Itachi knew that Amaterasu wasn't going to take out Tobi. He just placed it so that Sasuke would always be wary of that guy, as Itachi used a lethal technique on him. He also knew he could possibly get manipulated by the likes of him. It's not that Tobi directly manipulated Itachi. He just saw an opportunity in Itachi's moves, and took advantage of it after Itachi's death. Getting Sasuke is hardly the end result of a manipulation. Itachi could have killed Sasuke in the massacre. It wasn't Tobi's will that Sasuke lived.
And I know, Nagato was manipulated. That's stated first by Minato, who said to Naruto that Pain was being manipulated because of his traumatic experiences. I just don't get why this had anything to do with power. It's a manipulation of words. Though, in a way, I also wonder how you can manipulate someone through force. Manipulation is making people do whatever you want without them realizing it at all. Nagato was in contact with Madara-identity of Tobi, and he was at least unaware of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. That's how manipulation works.
Itachi : nagato, you possess the rinnegan and I possess the MS, together we can do everything.
Nagato : yeah, but in the end, both of us was being used.
How do you interpret that? And they're also talking about their knowledge on akatsuki or obito/tobi/madara's plan. In the end, both of them doesn't know the true plan of obito and they're being used/manipulated. I never understimate nagato at all. But I think you're the one who understimating obito. He's the true boss and the true harbinger of the ninja world. He's strong enough to used and manipulated both of them.
The only reason Itachi joined Akatsuki was Sasuke. He wasn't really interested in what Pain initially introduced as their plan, either. Just because he wasn't aware what Tobi was thinking doesn't make it a manipulation. Itachi was well aware of the fact that those gangsters were going to take out the Bijuu on their own, with his presence changing the outcome little.
Obito indeed manipulated Nagato, but as I said above, it's nothing to do with strength. Manipulation is only available through words getting through one, and he used the words good enough to manipulate him.
Again, Obito didn't have to be superior in terms of strength to manipulate Nagato. If you are a strong-minded person, no matter how strong a person is, you won't come to accept the ideas he is speaking of. Instead, you'd do everything in your possession to stop that opponent and if you failed, you'd die for that purpose along the way.
When Obito first approached the Ame orphans, he didn't showcase his power. I believe that was the case after Yahiko's death, as well. Showing someone power won't make them obedient necessarily, and since Nagato lost everything he had in his parents and his friend, his dream, he'd definitely die rather than become someone's pawn by force.
So you are asuming that Nagato decides it? Come on now that is unfair. Both sides should be made aware of the situation. What you are telling me that Obito could go over there to shake Nagato's hand in friendship and Nagato drains him completly of chakra instantly? Yeah he could do that but that is another thing.
This is a big asumtion. Tobi stated that the only reason he is alive is becasue he keps some secrets from Itachi (probably Izanagi). Going by the manga the biggest posibility here is that Itachi did asume its going to kill Tobi.Quote:
In the end this is a form of manipulation. Not mentaly exacly as he did to Nagato and Obito but he did use Itachi and got in the end what he needed and Itachi lost Sasuke to him. Even when Itachi was talking to Sasuke/Naruto (when in ET mode) he admits to be wrong to try to solve this by himself.Quote:
Nagato was most defenetly manipulated trough "hope". Tobi gave Nagato a way out, a way to "save the world". Nagato did not had an answer and was lost. Perfect time for Tobi to do his thing. Obviously had nothing to do with power. Nagato whent to Tobi for help of his own free will(remember Tobi stating he will be at that place at the same hour, each day or something like that).
That's what I meant, as well.
I wonder what would happen if they had succesfully got Hachibi and Kyuubi, as well. Nagato mentioned about creating a new jutsu. He didn't say a word of Juubi or Infinite Tsukuyomi. He probably had no idea about the plan. Obito would most likely try to take Nagato out once the Bijuu were gathered.
Itachi said that obito is his master, the one who teach him the power of his MS. And also, obito is the one who told nagato about the rinnegan's power, the six paths power. So maybe obito has the tools to defeat them. If not, then what's the point for staying in the akatsuki if itachi can defeat obito? Itachi needs obito's help to murder his clan, itachi knows obito's power, he even said that he was his master. So making a deal to obito to help him in his plan in exchange for sasuke and konoha doesn't mean that itachi had the power to defeat obito, it's just itachi's plan to save sasuke and the konoha to the likes of obito. And it doesn't matter if obito agreed on itachi's deal, t'was never meant that he,s afraid to itachi, obito just needs itachi service and power.
And rinnegan isn't an ordinary power, so someone needs a power to manipulate a rinnegan user.
And remember, for itachi and nagato, obito is madara. So they really believed that madara is still alive. And well, obito is really Tue second version of madara. T'was obito who told itachi and nagato about the MS/EMs/rinnegan's power. So obito, manipulated and used them through words, knowledge and power as the real madara.
Apparently, Itachi just appeared to be helping him, when in reality, it was already decided that he was going to go through with the massacre. I don't think Itachi needed any sort of help from Obito in killing off the clan members. If the elders thought he wasn't good enough to do it on his own, he wouldn't be assigned to such a task as a single person. He just negotiated with Tobi to save the rest of the village.
Of course, it goes without doubt that they wouldn't be manipulated by the words of someone who is just trash, but he doesn't necessarily have to be superior is what I meant.
Trouble? But just like uchiha blood said, kakashi/gai /bee/hachibi/naruto/kyubi's attacks only break obito's mask.
You can't change the fact that obito is their boss, for itachi, obito is his master, for nagato, obito is somehow his master. The one who told him the true power of his rinnegan.
For them, obito is the legendary madara. Obito has alot of knowledge/info of the uchiha clan from madara. He knows a bunch of uchiha's jutsu than itachi. So itachi did honestly believed that obito is madara and he's no match to fight that man.
Itachi's statement to sasuke : you? Will gonna kill madara? s. And '' sasuke, you must surpass obito este madara.''
So itachi admitted that he never surpass his legendary master.
---------- Post added at 10:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 AM ----------
But obito is really superior than itachi and nagato. They were being used and manipulated because obito has the tools and knowledge above than itachi and nagato.
Because asuming Tobi is forcing Nagato to do it then he would not be stupid enough to do something that would get him killed. Asuming he would go before Nagato he would be intangible or ready to do so.Quote:
Then asuming Nagato jumps him with his realms all Tobi needs to do is go underground, warp away after he get's enough distance and the return at any time and take him down. Nagato would have no idea how get to Tobi and Tobi can get him at any time.
If you ask me Kishi did not know what he is going to end up needing Izanami...Quote:
Anyway we don't know what it was. Could be anything. No indication it was Izanagi, we just asumed it was. Perhaps it was a Zetsu clone that was chating with Sasuke. We all know how those can replicate the original.
Ok it was not Izanami. Over here his mask does not disapear:
if it was a Izanami "resurection" that the mask would disapear and would pop on his face back. Also if it was activated after the mask was on the ground Tobi would end up having some horible damage but he was at 100%(costume and all). Its a mistery what he did there.
Anyway i go with Tobi on this:
It was an atempt to take him down. Of coruse who knows, can't say for sure. In the page i linked Tobi even states "or perhaps to keep me away".
Well he would not allow Nagato to ruin his last chanse to get it on with Rin that is most defenetly sure...Quote:
He must have had something planed to take him out.
Last edited by xXan; January 08, 2013 at 10:23 AM.
Where did he say that ? In a special book called "Character relationship chart". So going by YOUR word, Nagato is stronger because he's "Boss".
He also Never ordered him, simply said, "you'd best hurry". Pain said " I could go whenever I want".
In the scene you mentioned, he said "we will soon achieve OUR goal" Not "My goal". But that doesn't really matter since Kishimoto confirmed who's boss. And Itachi didn't know he was Obito, but he himself acknowledged Itachi to be stronger.
Ridiculous topic. Naruto was a type of Genius since day 1. The only difference between Sasuke, Neji and others like them is that they knew that from the start and were being treated in that regard. Self-confidence and support from others were the key factors for Naruto to become an individual such as his current self.