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View Poll Results: Do you think kishi cheated you !?

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Thread: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

  1. #106
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I corrected that for you.
    It wasn't this bad until the summit, though, so, he has a point.

  2. #107
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I corrected that for you.
    this is showing difference in ideas ...

    IMO Sasuke didn't show any overwhelming power against Kages ( for example itachi could beat oro in seconds when he was in verge of his death !!!! or when he was 13-14 and with normal sharingan !!! ) .... and against Danzo , well , Danzo was the one who had hax ability not Sasuke .... in best case Sasuke was no where near Itachi ( and Sasuke was supposed to surpass Itachi with his MS ) nor Sasuke has access to super power Tsukiumi ( oneshot jutsu ) or Tatsuka sword or Yata shield ... .
    and fact is that Sasuke finished Danzo with some luck and his intelligence not with overwhelming power ....
    ..........

    but after that kishi wanted to make more epic fights and monster and big jutsu come to play ....
    Last edited by shafagh; January 19, 2013 at 07:44 AM.
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  3. #108
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman View Post
    Because it's easy. It's Easy to take a character that has already been established as a monumental idiot and place them back in an idiot role, regardless of the progress that that character has made. that way, the audience doesn't question when the character does something monumentally stupid. Because, after all, it's within character. Look what happened when Kishimoto tried to pull that shit with Sasuke.
    Kishi evolved Naruto over time and made him smarter and better. Look at how he did against Karui and Darui - he stopped Darui from drawing his sword with his elbow and caught Karui's sword with his bare hands. He managed to think of that on the fly. And look at his fight with Pain, Naruto was nothing short of epic. So why does he need to get dumbed up against Nagato? Why this after or before (forgot when) Naruto somehow deducing the Third Raikage was the one who gave himself the scar? There's no excuse for Kishi showing Naruto maturing and getting better, and then dumbing him up again. Even if he didn't betray us, I still think he betrayed Naruto.

    I mean, Itachi was epic throughout the manga, up until his death, Jiraiya was epic even when he was dying, and Minato was shown to be cool and epic. Then you had Naruto, who was shown to be awesome against Pain and Darui and Karui. His resolve and speech was also pretty good at the Mountain when he was told his prophecy. Naruto is a great character, but in my opinion Kishi messed him up, which is what I don't like.

    Quote Quote:
    Overpowered freak? This late in the game, everyone's of note is an overpowered freak. look at Ē for example. The guy uses one technique, but despite that every person that he has faced has to be broken in someway otherwise they could easily die within seven seconds or less. that's honestly just being generous. Onoki goes without saying. Seriously, flying and Atomizing Jutsu?? Mei has two bloodline limits to match up. the only ones that can really be considered grounded are Gaara and Tsunade.
    when did I say they weren't? That's what annoys me, how Naruto turned into a DBZ-like manga with all the overpowered freaks like ET Madara, Kyuubi Naruto, Susano'o Sasuke, and the likes.

    Even E met his match in Naruto just because of Kyuubi chakra. The very same chakra that allowed Naruto to deal damage to Muu (though with Gaara's sand help). At this point, you can only safely say that ET Madara's the most overpowered freak.

    Quote Quote:
    Basically tactics and good jutsu usage aren't going to get you far at this point. I mean for shits sake, Look at Obito, dumbing him down for the plot sake is the only way to balance this guy out. He has one of the most broken techniques to exist in this entire story, that's not even counting the techniques he apparently has but hasn't used purely for the hell of it. And people complain about Kakashi not killing him, Seriously? Kakashi, and a shit ton of other people should be dead 12 times over by now. Hell, the only reason that anyone is much of a threat to him at all is due to the fact that Kakashi has his other eyeball, which he conveniently didn't just snatch back from him. Point being, everyone of note is an overpowered freak because being a "ninja" isn't going to get them anywhere anymore.
    But it used to. That's what I miss and want back. Tactics and using jutsu well was what made the manga interesting, and what made me root for Naruto himself. Look at his fight with Kiba, and how he impressed people. That's what I loved reading about Naruto, seeing intelligence used in battles. It's quite different from mangas like One Piece, Dragon Ball Z, and to a degree Bleach. Stuff like this is why I think we or the manga was betrayed.

    Or, Tobi conveniently being Obito.
    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I corrected that for you.
    Nope, the manga was still decent before the kage summit. Naruto came out of the fights looking better as a character, Sasuke didn't seem too overpowered, and etc.

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  5. #109
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member xaither's Avatar
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    Re: I feel Kishi betrayed us !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    i agree with this. after every one of sasukes fights naruto gets a power up and i agree with shafagh, you dont have to be the child destiny, uzumaki, son of the fourth and everything holy in life in one person just to be the main character of a story. naruto is often compared to goku but they are nothing alike, goku was born with a power level of 1, a lower class soldier and was sent to earth cause they thought he was a pussy and was still the hero. naruto started off a regular kid being the host for the fox but now he's pretty much ninja jesus with all these titles and power ups.

    imho i dont think naruto is cut out to be at the point where he is now,he constantly needs to be reassured, cant think for himself... he needs to build upon his skills and realize his full potential cause right now he's just borrowing other peoples power and is protected by the child prophecy bs. nagato shouldve been the sole child prophecy, he shouldve just passed on his will to naruto entrusting him to finish his goal once he changed his heart and died resurrecting everyone
    Here we go again, why are people hating naruto's power ? Just because it has a a mind and consciousness. Borrowed power you want to talk about naruto borrowing power. Go look at madara and sasuke, so they don't have borrowed power too ? No you just want to say naruto has borrow power because his power can TAlk ?

    madara- his brother eye and first hokage cells,
    Sasuke- his brother eye

    ---------- Post added at 08:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

    Kishi did not betray me, he might of betrayed you, but not me. I was smart and capable of knowing where this manga was heading. if you feel betrayed why then are you reading it? I know if i was reading a manga and then it becomes too boring for me or bad story I would have stopped reading it.

  6. #110
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: I feel Kishi betrayed us !!

    Quote Originally Posted by xaither View Post
    Here we go again, why are people hating naruto's power ? Just because it has a a mind and consciousness. Borrowed power you want to talk about naruto borrowing power. Go look at madara and sasuke, so they don't have borrowed power too ? No you just want to say naruto has borrow power because his power can TAlk ?

    madara- his brother eye and first hokage cells,
    Sasuke- his brother eye

    ---------- Post added at 08:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

    Kishi did not betray me, he might of betrayed you, but not me. I was smart and capable of knowing where this manga was heading. if you feel betrayed why then are you reading it? I know if i was reading a manga and then it becomes too boring for me or bad story I would have stopped reading it.
    They are mad because they all are predicting that Sasuke will come and save the alliance. Now that Naruto is showing to be able to do better than Sasuke, they are feeling that their hope might not come true. There is one thing you might have noticed about Naruto's haters. They are mad at Naruto being powerful, and they are mad at Naruto being the savior. However, if you wait a bit and listen to them, you will hear them saying that Sasuke will be more powerful than Naruto, and that Sasuke will save the shinobi alliance. Sometimes, in order to satisfy their own self, they even imagine that Obito or Madara will betray his friend and help the shinobi alliance. The reason for all these contradiction is that they have made a contract with hatred against Naruto. They would want anyone being hero as long as it is not Naruto.

    Some tips:

    1. Any power up is OK as long as it is not Naruto's. I recall a false spoiler saying that Madara went eight gates - and everyone was happy.
    2. Anyone can stop Biju and it will be OK as long as it is not Naruto. Even people will accept if Moegi get a power up to stop Juubi. Better, they will accept that Kishi bring back Rikudo Sennin or Hashimara to stop Juubi as long as it is not Naruto who does the job.
    3. These people will be happy only when Kishi will show something or someone with a suggestion that that person can defeat Naruto. You certainly have seen how they praise a scroll because Suigetsu said it will give victory in the war - as if Suigetsu knew everything in the shinobi world.
    4. My personal thought: They only read fact in which Sasuke is. Thus they ignore everything else.

  7. #111
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Whats that son of the fourth-argument doing in here?
    Wasnt it obvious right from the beginning? I mean, its been a while, and i havent went through the trouble of reading naruto from the beginning again, but to me, it was obvious right from the start. "uzumaki clan" is therefor no surprise aswell. Additionally, jiraya started that "child of prophecy" stuff years ago, so its no news eiter. Dunno how you can feel "betrayed" just because kishimoto didnt developed the story as YOU might have figured a decade ago.

    The real thing that make me feel like i got cheated , is the ninja war right now. I was so eager to see it, i couldnt wait for it, but now... it sucks. Please kubo, end it asap and let naruto RIP.
    Last edited by Pigov; January 21, 2013 at 09:58 AM.

  8. #112
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    I voted yes though I'm not sure if "cheated" is really the right word. More like "changed the story into something I don't like much".

    I liked Naruto because of his underdog origins and personal achievements. I have been eager to see how the boy and his friends would develop and grow into adults and what kind of people they would be. This is where Naruto has fallen short for me. I don't think Naruto has grown into an adult. After the Kage summit his character's maturation was twisted into ideological polarization and "Naruto the person" was pushed aside in favor of the "Naruto the ideological avatar"

    The problem with that is that I was a fan of Naruto the person more than his philosophy (which was clumsy, at best). His hopes, fears, sorrows, and triumphs were what I read the series for. Naruto never had to be "pure" or "right" to satisfy me. He just had to be "himself". When the narrative of the series was character focused I loved it. Now that it's switched to something more plot based, more about events and ideals than people, and I don't think it's nearly as good.

    I haven't enjoyed this War arc, or the Turtle Island arc before it. In my opinion, they are the two worst arcs in the entire series.. by far. They were badly written, badly plotted, full of weird characterizations, and emotionally flat. In this sense I do feel cheated because I don't think Kishimoto is doing as a good a job as he is capable of. I had expectations of him and his series that were not met. Whether the fault is with "him" or with "my expectations" is debatable, I suppose, but the feeling is definitely there.
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  10. #113
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    One good thing about the Turtle Island arc is that we got some insights into Naruto and how he felt about the village. That added to his character, in my opinion. We all knew Naruto cared about Konoha and his village, but we didn't know he still resented the village and had mistrust towards it even though they finally accepted him.

    Then, he did hug no jutsu.

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  12. #114
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    One good thing about the Turtle Island arc is that we got some insights into Naruto and how he felt about the village. That added to his character, in my opinion. We all knew Naruto cared about Konoha and his village, but we didn't know he still resented the village and had mistrust towards it even though they finally accepted him.

    Then, he did hug no jutsu.
    I agree 1000%, that whole Arc was terrible but that tidbit was golden:
    it showed just how scarred by those 13 years Naruto really was, and how difficult was to overcome all of that.
    After all its most difficult to accept all of oneself ( even though Kishi kinda ripped Atlus and the Persona series with the whole "Shadow/dark Naruto, I'm me" thingy ), and Naruto back then was the same socially awkward Naruto of part 1

  13. #115
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    It also showed how realistic Naruto was; despite being accepted by Konoha now, he still harbored suspicion and bad feelings towards them, and who could blame him? It added more to his character. Naruto changed from wanting to be hokage for recognition to wanting to be hokage to protect the ones he cared about. Now, he's just a repetition of one thing - establish peace and Jesus no jutsu. He became one dimensional.

  14. #116
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I agree 1000%, that whole Arc was terrible but that tidbit was golden:
    it showed just how scarred by those 13 years Naruto really was, and how difficult was to overcome all of that.
    After all its most difficult to accept all of oneself ( even though Kishi kinda ripped Atlus and the Persona series with the whole "Shadow/dark Naruto, I'm me" thingy ), and Naruto back then was the same socially awkward Naruto of part 1
    I think that tidbit could have been "golden". Having Naruto face his id was such a great idea but I don't like the way that was handled, to be honest.

    He faced down his darkside and was like "I believe in myself, so let's hug it out man." That resolution made so little sense.

    The whole point of facing down your id, which Persona and Ar tonelico games always do so well, is that your id is "you". Defeating it is about accepting a part fo yourself you reject so you can address the core problems in yourself whose very existence your rejecting. Instead Naruto literally preached to himself until his dark side went away.
    Last edited by Jammin; January 23, 2013 at 11:20 PM.
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  16. #117
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pigov View Post
    Whats that son of the fourth-argument doing in here?
    Wasnt it obvious right from the beginning? I mean, its been a while, and i havent went through the trouble of reading naruto from the beginning again, but to me, it was obvious right from the start. "uzumaki clan" is therefor no surprise aswell. Additionally, jiraya started that "child of prophecy" stuff years ago, so its no news eiter. Dunno how you can feel "betrayed" just because kishimoto didnt developed the story as YOU might have figured a decade ago.

    The real thing that make me feel like i got cheated , is the ninja war right now. I was so eager to see it, i couldnt wait for it, but now... it sucks. Please kubo, end it asap and let naruto RIP.
    Well, it being obvious does not mean the argument shouldn't be here. In regards to naruto originally supposedly being a talentless, worthless, born objectively bad person it simply stacks up with naruto in fact being insanely talented, worth objectively more than others who didn't win the genetic jackpot and born from a strickly moral standpoint better than others.

    The manga could have easily gone with naruto being an underdog who through hard work made his way from rock bottom to the top and find out he was the son of the hokage all along which would have been the cherry on top of the middle finger naruto would have given the village after becoming hokage however the story took a different direction. Naruto is not "just" the son of the greatest shinobi of the previous generation but he is also a number of other things. With him being an uzumaku (senju), descendant of the sage, possessor of the kyubi, his magical public speaking abilities which convert people to his religion on the spot and who knows what other magic talent or genetic advantage he has had from birth he is perfect, and pure, and awesome, and flawless and whatever other synonym of perfect you can think of.

    Its not just the story not developing how some people would have expected. This is not the story of an underdog, this is the story of someone born so overwhelmingly awesome and from any conceivable point of view so much greater than everybody else that society itself made a point of making him fail and not only he didn't fail but now carries the weight of saving the very society which despised him for no good or coherent reason.

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  18. #118
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Well, imho opinion, its just the perceptive point that changed.
    It started with naruto beeing an underdog just because everyone else were stupid, partly fashist assholes, who hated naruto because of his "curse" and him beeing different.
    Now its just that everyone else is shown in a bad spot since they underestimated him. Maybe thats what kishi is after? I dont know, we are all just guessing.
    Anyways, i dont disagree with you, especially during ninja school and earlier training sequences, he showed no promise and skill at all, so the emphasis on "naruto->underdog" is probably right and intented.

  19. #119
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Euraj's Avatar
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    Re: I feel like Kishi betrayed us!

    Well, it certainly changed themes somewhere down the line. I think in order to avoid this incongruity now, we shouldn't have had Naruto's discourse to Neji including "overcoming destiny" in the first. Overcoming his position would have been better since he definitely did that. Iruka's recollection after the Pain fight are proof.

    Nevertheless, I wouldn't say I feel "betrayed" or "cheated"
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  20. #120
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member MiyamotoMusashi's Avatar
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    Re: I feel Kishi betrayed us !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    While I agree with you that the whole "Child of prophecy" and all kinda ruined Naruto's character in regards of defying destiny and all, its not like he's gonna sit there and things are gonna magically fix themselves, he still has to work his butt off to defeat his enemies.

    And if you think he's protected by the plot because he's the child of prophecy, then you must've missed for, what, 400 chapters that the manga is called Naruto its obvious he's gonna be top dog at the end of the manga, is foolish to think otherwise
    First off, i am sorry if someone else already said this or you changed your opinion or added something to it, i did not read all of the 8 pages.

    I just want to ask you when Naruto after the TS worked his butt off to grow stronger without any asspull? Naruto was supposed to be the talentless guy who actually really has to work hard to achieve things but let´s review what happened:
    First he comes back after 2 and a half years training, in which he actually had time to work his butt off, with the apparently strongest ninja of Konoha, but the only thing he learned was a bigger Rasengan, a way to free himself from a Genjutsu, which the first time he tried did not work anyway, and of course being way easier to provoke. But then he completes a Jutsu which the extremely talented, 4th Hokage, who had several years to achieve the jutsu, or Naruto´s master, who had a lifetime to complete the jutsu, could not complete and he did it in a few days (forgot the exact number) even though he did not even know about elemental chakra before. Hmm, that does not sound like hard work succeeding over talent. The same happened with Sage Mode. He learned it faster than Jiraiya and was even able to perfect it (i guess you can´t have a protagonist that looks like a frog). And finally, we have his Kyuubi power ups, i guess those do not need a comment.

    I admit that the word "betrayed" is way too harsh, i would choose disappointed but that does not change the fact that imo shafagh is right.
    Last edited by MiyamotoMusashi; February 01, 2013 at 12:36 AM.

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