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Thread: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity LoS's Avatar
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    HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Chapter is out

    It's a shame they continue to make Miu seem like a mindless, raging fighter, and they just had to hype up the blind guy.

    By the way, that was a very creepy face he had.
    The OG that ran Bleach for near a decade is no more.
    Cheers to a boss villain, I tip my hat to you Aizen

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Well, as far as we know miu at the time might actually be a mindless raging fighter much like she was against kano. She just released her dou ki but that does not mean she can quite control it just yet. I do expect us to have a chapter which deals with her finally controlling her ki and manage to defeat rimi without killing her.

    Lugh was hyped but only in regards to ki. In every other aspect there won't be any reason for him to not be a standard yomi at large. I did find the fact that he did not seem to have an awakened ki interesting. Dou ki makes your fist like steel and allows you to repel your enemy with ki alone, what would a sei style awakening do? This is a boost which could be relevant to takeda and even kenichi. Lugh is a sei user who has not yet awakened his ki, kenichi could easily be on the same wagon. Perhaps the reason kenichi's ryusui seikuken can so far be easily disrupted is that his sei ki has not quite yet awakened.

    As far as the effect of sei ki, perhaps it makes the user much like a wall? I dislike the idea a bit though. While sei and dou have implications of being defensive and offensive respectively I always liked the idea of both of them being good for both things in their own way. We even saw akira having a standard offensive position and sakaki with a standard defensive position. Perhaps much like what we saw with sakaki and akira each ki has an effect on how the user fights. Perhaps the very use of sei ki makes the user a more withdrawn fighter while dou ki makes them wild. In this regard perhaps once kenichi awakens his own sei ki he will have trouble actually changing to the offensive for a while. It is hard enough for kenichi to hurt his enemies as it is. If things are like that I do wonder if dou is the objectively better ki. While in the grand scheme of things both are likely equal but different, sei ki having the effects I described just now could be a huge blunder to a fighter. You ultimately cannot win a fight without attacking and dou ki is the one that best allows you to use all of your strength. Perhaps if kenichi was a dou user rather than a sei user he would not have the slow starting up problems he has. For someone as unwilling to fight as he is, dou ki would have been far more practical.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Lost0's Avatar
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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Lol I agree with you on the face, it was fucking creepy. Takeda should probably try the RS on Lugh, I wonder would it help him at all ?

    And Miu should hurry up and kill Rimi before she reaches Kenichi. We all know Kenichi will try to stop her from releasing her ki, the Rimi will strike when her guard is down.

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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    *I wanted to see Chikage trashing Ukita! I want to see him suffer while trying to get on Chikage's soft side!

    *Now you wish for Shiba's teachings, uh Takeda!?

    *End this now Miu!

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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    I'm not too sure if Takeda's been using Seikuken or not, but if he has been then its hilarious how Lugh can just jump in and out of it without suffering at all.

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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Well, I really liked the chapter, especially the ability Lugh has. I think it would benefit Kenichi to master the same thing. It's especially useful to have ki sensors on such a high level, when you not only fight strong enemies, but when you also fight several opponents. And it will make his Seikuken and Ryusui Seikuken more complete. At least the chapter gave me such an impression. Such a power up can get Kenichi considerably futher as a fighter.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    I don't think takeda is actually able to use the regular seikuken at all and I doubt ryusui seikuken will actually be possible against lugh. For one thing as far as we have seen both seikuken are on the weak side against submissions and throws. For another seikuken is directly against what boxing is supposed to be. Seikuken is basically a reflective/defensive techniques which stops attacks from entering an area around the user via blocking, deviating and punching attacks as far as we have seen. Boxers do not deviate attacks, they either avoid them or block them with their fist in the standard boxing position. Ryusui seikuken is an idea technique for a boxer however the regular seikuken would effectively make takeda's martial art precisely not boxing.

    As far as RS goes the issue will be that lugh is blind and for the most part keeps his eyes close. Lugh opens his eyes occasionally however if it comes down to it then lugh will simply force himself to close his eyes. Even if that was not an issue lugh still has the advantage over takeda in that department. RS is basically a deep reading of the enemy's movements so the expectation that takeda will be able to outread lugh is less than reasonable. RS is also a deep sei technique, there is a huge aspect of ki involved here. There is no particular reason for takeda to be able to compete with lugh in terms of ki.

    In the end takeda has to make due in this fight without RS against someone of stronger ki. I do get the impression takeda will actually lose this fight though. He just seems inferior. A single lock from lugh will at the very least break something in takeda however even if takeda does land a punch it is unlikely to finish the fight.

    Seeing how the fights have developed I can't help but get the impression that the fights will get interrupted shortly. Takeda is at a massive disadvantage, kisara has no business whatsoever fighting a yomi and overall the rest of the fights seem to be far more dangerous than what they need to be even by yomi standards. Rachel and renka are actually fighting in the middle of quite a strong fire.... The fight between kenichi and berserker still lacks something to give it some emotional weight. Once the park takes more damage I think the fights will be interrupted either by the police or masters at which point either party will issue a formal challenge to the other side at which point the shinpaku guys will have a chance to prepare better. The only fights I can imagine ending soon are the ones concerning miu and rimi and perhaps rachel and renka.

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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    No, I don't agree with that. It shouldn't be possible for Takeda to know how use RS if he didn't learn regular seikuken first. It's a manga fact that the Elder developed the RS technique as an further extension to the regular seikuken technique in general. That's why the technique is unique only to him. Kenichi wouldn't of been able to learn RS without first learning the basic principles of the regular seikuken technique as he did in his mountain training with the Elder. It's not possible to learn Ryusui Seikuken right off the bat, it goes against everything the manga has shown us so far. That's the same as trying to build a house up without first laying down the foundation, not possible . Takeda by all rights should know how to use regular seikuken regardless of the fact it may render his boxing style useless or whatever.
    Last edited by BASED Shinigami; January 15, 2013 at 05:57 AM.
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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I don't think takeda is actually able to use the regular seikuken at all and I doubt ryusui seikuken will actually be possible against lugh. For one thing as far as we have seen both seikuken are on the weak side against submissions and throws. For another seikuken is directly against what boxing is supposed to be. Seikuken is basically a reflective/defensive techniques which stops attacks from entering an area around the user via blocking, deviating and punching attacks as far as we have seen. Boxers do not deviate attacks, they either avoid them or block them with their fist in the standard boxing position. Ryusui seikuken is an idea technique for a boxer however the regular seikuken would effectively make takeda's martial art precisely not boxing.

    As far as RS goes the issue will be that lugh is blind and for the most part keeps his eyes close. Lugh opens his eyes occasionally however if it comes down to it then lugh will simply force himself to close his eyes. Even if that was not an issue lugh still has the advantage over takeda in that department. RS is basically a deep reading of the enemy's movements so the expectation that takeda will be able to outread lugh is less than reasonable. RS is also a deep sei technique, there is a huge aspect of ki involved here. There is no particular reason for takeda to be able to compete with lugh in terms of ki.

    In the end takeda has to make due in this fight without RS against someone of stronger ki. I do get the impression takeda will actually lose this fight though. He just seems inferior. A single lock from lugh will at the very least break something in takeda however even if takeda does land a punch it is unlikely to finish the fight.

    Seeing how the fights have developed I can't help but get the impression that the fights will get interrupted shortly. Takeda is at a massive disadvantage, kisara has no business whatsoever fighting a yomi and overall the rest of the fights seem to be far more dangerous than what they need to be even by yomi standards. Rachel and renka are actually fighting in the middle of quite a strong fire.... The fight between kenichi and berserker still lacks something to give it some emotional weight. Once the park takes more damage I think the fights will be interrupted either by the police or masters at which point either party will issue a formal challenge to the other side at which point the shinpaku guys will have a chance to prepare better. The only fights I can imagine ending soon are the ones concerning miu and rimi and perhaps rachel and renka.
    I agree with your last paragraph because miu might have just released her ki but that does not make her a step ahead of rimi because she on the other hand has been training with it and can control it, unlike miu who's just beserk right now. I do think their second battle will put the hammer to the nail and end their fuss with miu winning. then again how many times have they faced each other...getting kind of redundant how its not settled yet.

    overall i do agree that shimpaku might need to be better prepared, this fight looks like it'll be interupted, if not then i can see shimpaku loosing someone...chikage scares me in that regard as to how far she'll accomplish her mission.

  11. #10
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by BASED Shinigami View Post
    No, I don't agree with that. It shouldn't be possible for Takeda to know how use RS if he didn't learn regular seikuken first. It's a manga fact that the Elder developed the RS technique as an further extension to the regular seikuken technique in general. That's why the technique is unique only to him. Kenichi wouldn't of been able to learn RS without first learning the basic principles of the regular seikuken technique as he did in his mountain training with the Elder. It's not possible to learn Ryusui Seikuken right off the bat, it goes against everything the manga has shown us so far. That's the same as trying to build a house up without first laying down the foundation, not possible . Takeda by all rights should know how to use regular seikuken regardless of the fact it may render his boxing style useless or whatever.
    Well, RS is definitely an application of the standard seikuken however that does not rule out there being other ways to learn it (even if they are inferior). Shiba described boxing as a gentleman's sport because they fight in ways which at large are impractical, they bet their lives for that. They do not use kicks, knees, elbows, they do not deviate punches and their blocks are at large impractical. They bet everything on avoiding, impractical blocks and closed fists. How can takeda use or even learn seikuken in those conditions? The very form which allows seikuken to be formed around the user is plainly and utterly not boxing at all, the ways in which takeda would defend while using seikuken are simply not boxing. Even if takeda learned the regular seikuken it is still not something he can use in battle with his current style, it would beat the entire purpose of boxing. With that in mind, why would shiba teach him something which neither of them has use for? Seeing there is no point in either takeda or shiba learning the standard seikuken and that there is no way for shiba to teach ryusui seikuken as he simply does not know it, the most likely scenario is that takeda simply copied RS from kenichi. As it is simply a copied technique and takeda did not get the fundamentals which kenichi had for it then it simply resulted in his shallower version which did not get past the 1st stage.

  12. #11
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BASED Shinigami's Avatar
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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, RS is definitely an application of the standard seikuken however that does not rule out there being other ways to learn it (even if they are inferior). Shiba described boxing as a gentleman's sport because they fight in ways which at large are impractical, they bet their lives for that. They do not use kicks, knees, elbows, they do not deviate punches and their blocks are at large impractical. They bet everything on avoiding, impractical blocks and closed fists. How can takeda use or even learn seikuken in those conditions? The very form which allows seikuken to be formed around the user is plainly and utterly not boxing at all, the ways in which takeda would defend while using seikuken are simply not boxing. Even if takeda learned the regular seikuken it is still not something he can use in battle with his current style, it would beat the entire purpose of boxing. With that in mind, why would shiba teach him something which neither of them has use for? Seeing there is no point in either takeda or shiba learning the standard seikuken and that there is no way for shiba to teach ryusui seikuken as he simply does not know it, the most likely scenario is that takeda simply copied RS from kenichi. As it is simply a copied technique and takeda did not get the fundamentals which kenichi had for it then it simply resulted in his shallower version which did not get past the 1st stage.
    Look, I'm not debating the effectiveness of which Takeda can use the regular seikuken technique. You make a very good point about the boxing sports weaknesses, but you have to take in account the author does not always take the weaknesses of individual martial arts styles in consideration when they are portrayed throughout the story. The author has been shown to drastically bend the rules sometimes, so I think it's important for us to realize the boxing we see now is definitely not the same as real world boxing meaning not all the same implications can be drawn in this instance. Also, you're completely wrong when you say the blocking is at large impractical IMO you must don't watch a lot of boxing for you to say such a thing. That's absurd. I know and I've seen people who box professionally up close. Their parrying system (if you don't know what that is or what it looks like go watch some you-tube videos or something) at best allows them to deflect pretty much any type of attack aimed at their upper body. Boxing may not be all that practical in the MMA world, but for street fighting it's absolutely perfect because where I'm from people hardly ever attack the lower body with kicks or grappling techniques unless they've been trained. It is possible for Takeda to use the regular seikuken technique somewhat effectively if he utilizes the parrying system therefore it would still be considered boxing, but he would still be at a disadvantage when comes to defending his lower body. Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You cannot learn advanced techniques without first learning the basics. I think it's more likely he learned the regular seikuken technique and then was taught an inferior application to that technique that closely resembled the Elder's RS application. That's why it didn't make it past the first stage IMO.
    Last edited by BASED Shinigami; January 18, 2013 at 12:10 PM.
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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Well, the difference is that in this case the author has shown specifically that even takeda's secret boxing sports some serious handicaps. I would argue takeda's RS was acquired largely the same way as his myoboshi. Takeda does not know karate, kung fu, thai or jiujitsu however he is still able to use a weaker version of myoboshi via observing kenichi. That alone shows that it is possible for certain techniques to be copied to some degree without having all the fundamentals beaten into you.

    As far as boxing in the real world.... what difference does it make if it works in street fights(even in that scenario you have to be really good at it and to boot it is not quite unheard of for crazy to do the work against even more balanced martial arts)? The manga situations are far more similar to MMA fights than just regular street fights to begin with and people there have all the tools to do wonders against the lower body.

    Also, wouldn't a parrying system kinda beat the point of seikuken? The whole point of seikuken is to control the area around you. With a parrying system he would be either allowing attacks into his area or would have to move to make up for his limited blocks and covers which is what he would be doing anyways. Seikuken at large would seem redundant for takeda....

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member BASED Shinigami's Avatar
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    Re: HSDK Chapter 505 Discussion/Chapter 506 Predictions

    Possible, but not likely at all. In order for an application to be made something must have existed before it so which it can be applied upon. Your theory does not work in this case. No application of RS can be taught until you first learn the basics. How are you having such a hard time processing that information? It's not that hard to understand.

    I never argued that the manga situations are more similar to street fights. You said boxings blocking scheme is impractical (I'm assuming you mean in general all together) which is false because you obviously don't know what're talking about. Their blocking scheme is very well capable of defending against any attack aimed at the upper body. This makes is it perfectly suitable for street fighting, and it's not like the average citizen is a trained martial artist.

    No, the parrying system works by deflecting attacks before they can even get close to your body, so you would be in theory controlling the space around you. In certain cases you would be allowing attacks to enter your space.....but uh yeah not redundant.
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