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Thread: Naruto 617 Discussion

  1. #556
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post

    The definition of genius by this manga is someone who has intelligence that allows them to achieve feats and goals easily and quickly whereas it would take others much more time and effort to do so. Essentially being a genius means things come easy to you.

    Naruto is not a genius because nothing comes easy to him. He has to work hard, and often times find ways to "cheat" things because he can't do them the right way properly. That in an of itself means he is intuitive, but does not mean he is a genius.

    Rightfully so, if you are a genius you are undoubtedly intuitive. Bust like how a square is a rectangle, but rectangle isn't a square, being intuitive in and of itself does not make you a genius.

    Do we need more evidence? If Naruto was in fact a genius, he would be BY FAR, the only genius who wasn't highly intelligent. The fact that Naruto lacks common sense, can not grasp complicated concepts, and needs everything given to him, by his own admission to Kakashi "slowly and simply" means he lacks one of the fundamental traits of being a genius: To easily be able to grasp something. And once you grasp a concept, you should be able to perform it easily.

    Naruto has always been about working hard. If he was genius, then things wouldn't be so hard for him to do.

    As for the bolded part, how does a large chakra capacity make you a genius?
    That's a general definition, not a definition of manga. And the word "genius" has a lot sub-definitions that describe a person excelling in certain fields in life.

    Not really. He learned Rasengan in 7 days whereas his daddy needed 3 years, who was, ironically, called a Genius.

    Naruto wasn't intuitive, he has Minato's genes, for logic's sense.

    That's the problem here. You and bunch of others judge his intelligence by his behavior outside of battles which is incredibly stupid. His common sense is more than there when he's fighting. Do I need to show you THAT EVIDENCE?

    He was always working hard, but he always accomplished and still does something that NO OTHER could. That's another definition of a Genius, btw.

    How? Simply because NO OTHER individual has that particular asset.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    As for what I remember, Jiraiya called him a rare talent' that comes around once every generation....
    That case Naruto is a genius.

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  4. #558
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by toussaintac View Post
    Kakashi, Sasuke, Neji, Orochimaru, and Minato were geniuses because of how well they did in the academy. The academy, as indicated by the name, was a more academic way of looking at genius. They did well in that structure and written testing, etc. There are plenty of smart people in real life that never even finished school. Some people are just born with good fighting sense and instinct. There are things that would need to happen for ceertain people to take interest and show their full capability. For Naruto, that happened when he met Jiraiya and saw the Rasengan. For Jiraiya, it happened when he stumbled across Toad/Frog Mountain. For Hiruzen, I'm not sure. Being called the professor, I would think he was like that from the beginning. Gaara was already strong and very smart. He was just psychotic. Usually kage's children are well educated. Not sure about Hanzou either.
    Again, you unable to grasp what the term "genius" actually means.

    Sasuke was genius because he learned a C-rank right of passage ninjutsu at the age of 7. He later created a chakra manipulation that not even Orochimaru had ever seen.

    Kakashi was a genius because he was able to create an A-rank jutsu (using nature manipulation no less) at 13.

    Minato was a genius because he created, not 1, not 2, but 3 of the most powerful jutsu known to man. One gives you control of the God of Death, another is a Space/Time ninjutsu, and the last is the pinnacle of shape manipulation.

    Neji was a genius because he learned all of his clans jutsu at young age without ever being taught them.

    Orochimaru is a genius because just look at all the shit he's created and done.

    Now, there ability to do well in school helped show their genius, but it is not the real reason they are geniuses. If they never went to the ninja academy they would still be recognized as geniuses because of the ease at which they learn things and there ability to create things.

    When we look at Naruto we see someone who had to break his back to do everything he's ever done. NOTHING has ever come easy to him. That fact alone proves he isn't a genius.

    Again, genius is term used for one's ability to learn and understand. It is not used to describe one's talent or skill, but rather how easily they acquire and use that skill.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  5. #559
    The Green Knight MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Gats's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    @Roman : Minato created the Rasengan, which means he had to do it from nothing but his mind.
    Naruto just had to apply what has been taught to him. Not saying that it wasn't difficult but really we shouldn't compare both facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Hardly. I'm still waiting for a full explanation as to how in the hell he learned how to do this in the way he is. Giving chakra to someone is nothing knew as he's done it before (and that isn't taking away from this feat which is nothing short of extraordinary, but it seems he capable of doing anything at this point). Saying that the last chapter made no sense. The fact that Naruto can regenerate living tissue and organs while harnessing the Kyuubi's chakra in the past, yet couldn't fix a dislocated shoulder (something everyone has the capability to do), boggles my mind to no end.

    Do not underestimate the power of feelings, especially for Sasuke. Hence the difference of regeneration.
    Last edited by Gats; January 28, 2013 at 01:36 PM.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Again, you unable to grasp what the term "genius" actually means.

    Sasuke was genius because he learned a C-rank right of passage ninjutsu at the age of 7. He later created a chakra manipulation that not even Orochimaru had ever seen.

    Kakashi was a genius because he was able to create an A-rank jutsu (using nature manipulation no less) at 13.

    Minato was a genius because he created, not 1, not 2, but 3 of the most powerful jutsu known to man. One gives you control of the God of Death, another is a Space/Time ninjutsu, and the last is the pinnacle of shape manipulation.

    Neji was a genius because he learned all of his clans jutsu at young age without ever being taught them.

    Orochimaru is a genius because just look at all the shit he's created and done.

    Now, there ability to do well in school helped show their genius, but it is not the real reason they are geniuses. If they never went to the ninja academy they would still be recognized as geniuses because of the ease at which they learn things and there ability to create things.

    When we look at Naruto we see someone who had to break his back to do everything he's ever done. NOTHING has ever come easy to him. That fact alone proves he isn't a genius.

    Again, genius is term used for one's ability to learn and understand. It is not used to describe one's talent or skill, but rather how easily they acquire and use that skill.
    You contradict yourself with your explanations. Naruto learned an A-rank technique in 7 days. He CREATED an ABOVE S RANK TECHNIQUE which NO ONE, not even Minato, could. Can you grasp that?

    ---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gats View Post
    @Roman : Minato created the Rasengan, which means he had to do it from nothing but his mind.
    Naruto just had to apply what has been taught to him. Not saying that it wasn't difficult but really we shouldn't compare both facts.
    I'm sure he didn't waste 3 years constructing it in his head. Even if it's a year, for example, for learning it, 7 days still is amazing as it ever was.

  7. #561
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    That's a general definition, not a definition of manga. And the word "genius" has a lot sub-definitions that describe a person excelling in certain fields in life.

    Not really. He learned Rasengan in 7 days whereas his daddy needed 3 years, who was, ironically, called a Genius.

    Naruto wasn't intuitive, he has Minato's genes, for logic's sense.

    That's the problem here. You and bunch of others judge his intelligence by his behavior outside of battles which is incredibly stupid. His common sense is more than there when he's fighting. Do I need to show you THAT EVIDENCE?

    He was always working hard, but he always accomplished and still does something that NO OTHER could. That's another definition of a Genius, btw.

    How? Simply because NO OTHER individual has that particular asset.
    It is not a general definition but the definition given to us time and time again in the manga.

    Minato CREATED THE TECHNIQUE. It takes much more to create something from nothing then to learn something half assed in 7 days which is exactly what Naruto did. He need 3 steps of hands and several seconds to create a softball sized Rasengan whereas his father created one the size of a basketball in the blink of an eye with one hand.

    And his common sense is there when he is fighting? O really? WTF was he doing when he tried to hit Nagato with a ninjutsu technique then despite knowing Nagato could absorb it? He's an idiot, accept that fact and move on.

    And good God I do not know who you believe having an asset no one else has makes you a genius. For the record, Kisame, Raikage, Gaara, and Nagato all have chakra capacities as large as Naruto does if not larger. No where has it been said that they are geniuses. Juugo is the only known person alive that can naturally absorb natural energy. Is he now a genius too?

    Chouji is probably the only human alive who can eat 50 lbs of ribs and live to tell the tale. Is he a genius?

    And doing something no one else could because no one else had the luxury of his skill set. No other ninja but Naruto could condense what was likely over 10 years in training into a 3 day span with his Kage Bushin technique. Can you imagine what would happen if you gave Itachi or Minato that much time?

    Again, just accomplishing a feat does not make you a genius. You must accomplish the feat with ease and very quickly. THAT is what makes you a genius, genius is an intellectual property, something that has to do with one's mind being able to process and allow there body to do something easily. Hard work is the exact opposite of genius.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Stephen Hawkins is a genius but I still doubt he could beat Madara... Tho he would have explained Obito's Kamui time/space ability far quicker than Kakashi... and he dont even have Obito's other sharingan.
    Last edited by Dattebayo!; January 28, 2013 at 01:45 PM.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    You contradict yourself with your explanations. Naruto learned an A-rank technique in 7 days. He CREATED an ABOVE S RANK TECHNIQUE which NO ONE, not even Minato, could. Can you grasp that?
    I contradict myself? You are claiming that his large chakra supply makes him a genius.

    He learned how to do an A-rank technique incorrectly and to a lesser degree in 7 days and he had to break his ass in doing so.

    He created an S-rank technique in an actual time frame of what was probably 10-20 years due to a training method, and broke his ass the entire time doing it.

    That does not fit the explanation of a genius. You need more than that, and even still you would need to achieve those results without it being so difficult.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I contradict myself? You are claiming that his large chakra supply makes him a genius.

    He learned how to do an A-rank technique incorrectly and to a lesser degree in 7 days and he had to break his ass in doing so.

    He created an S-rank technique in an actual time frame of what was probably 10-20 years due to a training method, and broke his ass the entire time doing it.

    That does not fit the explanation of a genius. You need more than that, and even still you would need to achieve those results without it being so difficult.
    I agree, but how do you explain Gai's comment about lee being a Genius of hard work?

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    It is not a general definition but the definition given to us time and time again in the manga.

    Minato CREATED THE TECHNIQUE. It takes much more to create something from nothing then to learn something half assed in 7 days which is exactly what Naruto did. He need 3 steps of hands and several seconds to create a softball sized Rasengan whereas his father created one the size of a basketball in the blink of an eye with one hand.

    And his common sense is there when he is fighting? O really? WTF was he doing when he tried to hit Nagato with a ninjutsu technique then despite knowing Nagato could absorb it? He's an idiot, accept that fact and move on.

    And good God I do not know who you believe having an asset no one else has makes you a genius. For the record, Kisame, Raikage, Gaara, and Nagato all have chakra capacities as large as Naruto does if not larger. No where has it been said that they are geniuses. Juugo is the only known person alive that can naturally absorb natural energy. Is he now a genius too?

    Chouji is probably the only human alive who can eat 50 lbs of ribs and live to tell the tale. Is he a genius?

    And doing something no one else could because no one else had the luxury of his skill set. No other ninja but Naruto could condense what was likely over 10 years in training into a 3 day span with his Kage Bushin technique. Can you imagine what would happen if you gave Itachi or Minato that much time?

    Again, just accomplishing a feat does not make you a genius. You must accomplish the feat with ease and very quickly. THAT is what makes you a genius, genius is an intellectual property, something that has to do with one's mind being able to process and allow there body to do something easily. Hard work is the exact opposite of genius.
    I agree with pretty much most of this post, though I wouldn't say hard work is exactly the opposite of genius. 'Genius' implies that hard work isn't needed, sure, but the two definitely aren't mutually exclusive. Neji and Sasuke still have to train to accomplish things.

    But yeah, just having Sharingan isn't what makes Sasuke a genius, as someone implied.

    And the only reason Naruto was able to learn FRS so quickly is directly related to the massive amount of chakra he has. That's not 'genius', not at least by the manga's standard.

  12. #566
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    I agree, but how do you explain Gai's comment about lee being a Genius of hard work?
    Simple, it's a paradox and a play on words.

    Again, working hard is the exact opposite of being of genius. Lee showed us however, that by working hard you can attain the same results as a genius, it just takes longer and is much more difficult.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    It is not a general definition but the definition given to us time and time again in the manga.

    Minato CREATED THE TECHNIQUE. It takes much more to create something from nothing then to learn something half assed in 7 days which is exactly what Naruto did. He need 3 steps of hands and several seconds to create a softball sized Rasengan whereas his father created one the size of a basketball in the blink of an eye with one hand.

    And his common sense is there when he is fighting? O really? WTF was he doing when he tried to hit Nagato with a ninjutsu technique then despite knowing Nagato could absorb it? He's an idiot, accept that fact and move on.

    And good God I do not know who you believe having an asset no one else has makes you a genius. For the record, Kisame, Raikage, Gaara, and Nagato all have chakra capacities as large as Naruto does if not larger. No where has it been said that they are geniuses. Juugo is the only known person alive that can naturally absorb natural energy. Is he now a genius too?

    Chouji is probably the only human alive who can eat 50 lbs of ribs and live to tell the tale. Is he a genius?

    And doing something no one else could because no one else had the luxury of his skill set. No other ninja but Naruto could condense what was likely over 10 years in training into a 3 day span with his Kage Bushin technique. Can you imagine what would happen if you gave Itachi or Minato that much time?

    Again, just accomplishing a feat does not make you a genius. You must accomplish the feat with ease and very quickly. THAT is what makes you a genius, genius is an intellectual property, something that has to do with one's mind being able to process and allow there body to do something easily. Hard work is the exact opposite of genius.
    It's not given in the manga, it's simply your own view on it, like so many others.

    Oh now we're gonna judge the technicalities? I don't give a shit HOW he obtained it, he just DID. Downplaying it won't change the fact that no one else could do it in the time he did it, as well as shaping it, mastering it and ADVANCING it.

    No, MORE than common sense is there when he's fighting. WTF are you reading? Did you even see his fights?

    Excuse me? Is that an EVIDENCE from manga since you so highly respect it? NO, It's not. It's another biased "explanation".

    It certainly makes it plausible more than to oppose it. Minato was the fastest shinobi alive. Being fastest means that no else is as fast as he is. I'm sure that's one of the things that signifies his genius. It's as simple as that.

    Now you're being sarcastic, boy. Stay on the page and throw me the evidence and explanation. Chouji is a mediocre shinobi, nothing more, nothing less.

    LOL. Are you fucking kidding me right now? You're gonna bash his skill set and blame his success on his KageBunshin? If that's the case, you're no different than others who try to downplay his abilities. Itachi or Minato didn't have the luxury of that because they weren't good at it and didn't have as much as CHAKRA CAPACITY. Imagine if Naruto had Sharingan. Can you imagine how powerful he'd be then?

    Okay, let ask you this in a drawing-type of question. So you tellin' me that Naruto's Rasenshuriken isn't a Genius property? Somehow I hope you don't answer that.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi View Post
    I agree with pretty much most of this post, though I wouldn't say hard work is exactly the opposite of genius. 'Genius' implies that hard work isn't needed, sure, but the two definitely aren't mutually exclusive. Neji and Sasuke still have to train to accomplish things.

    But yeah, just having Sharingan isn't what makes Sasuke a genius, as someone implied.

    And the only reason Naruto was able to learn FRS so quickly is directly related to the massive amount of chakra he has. That's not 'genius', not at least by the manga's standard.
    I agree, you still need to work hard. Difference is the level of hard work Neji and Sasuke would have to put in to learn something is significantly less than someone like Lee or Naruto would have to put in. Not to mention, Naruto and Lee would need 10 times as much time to learn said skill or what have you

    . And again, Naruto didn't literally learn FRS quickly. In real time it only took him 3 days, but in his mind he trained for decades in order to accomplish it.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I contradict myself? You are claiming that his large chakra supply makes him a genius.

    He learned how to do an A-rank technique incorrectly and to a lesser degree in 7 days and he had to break his ass in doing so.

    He created an S-rank technique in an actual time frame of what was probably 10-20 years due to a training method, and broke his ass the entire time doing it.

    That does not fit the explanation of a genius. You need more than that, and even still you would need to achieve those results without it being so difficult.
    You obviously don't know what contradiction means.

    Incorrectly as in terms of different? He fucked Kabuto up with that Rasengan. I'm sure you remember that.

    Yeah, he did. And guess what? No one else can do that. NO ONE.

    It certainly fits. It even fits your own explanation. He needed his MIND to create that technique.

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    Re: Naruto 617 Discussion / 618 Predictions

    @ Delbi

    I think you chose the wrong example. Indeed, Rock Lee is a genius of hardwork, but fact is your body need to keep up with the hard work. In that sense, Rock Lee is not some regular individual as you pointed. He was born with something special. This is my point here. Hashimara Mokuton was classified as KKG. People usually confuse the Mokuton with Senju, but it is wrong. Hashimara was a special Senju, and that is why he is who he is. For him to be that special, his power has to have a source that is different from other mainstream Senju.

    Similarly, when talking about Minato's bloodline, I mean the reason he was so special, even if this reason is not mention yet. Besides, I am pretty sure, Kishi will not kill the thrill of his work before the end, specially his hero. The hero has to renew interest in the manga continually. Thus, I usually predict that Namikaze is not some cheap name. While I might be wrong, I hardly am able to read response such as Minato is a regular guy. He isn't a regular guy, and I can bet on this. There is no way a guy who was already a flash at 12 years old is going to be regular in this manga.

    Finally, there is only one type of genius in the manga, and it is the only same definition of the word. For the sake of good discussion, read the definition of genuis here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genius.

    In any case you are born genius, you don't acquire it:

    1. Lee was born a genius of hardwork
    2. Minato was born a genius of brain and all his yellow flash stuffs: He had the basis for them
    3. The Uchiha are born genius because they have the basis for the Sharingan, etc.

    All these bases are not learned, they are given by mother nature, or by blood.

    PS: It seems to me that Lee=young Guy sensei. Maybe some bloodline here. (LOL)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    You can achieve greatness without having any special attributes and others ascend what other "geniuses" can achieve.
    Trying to evade again with some broad word. What kind of greatness can a coward achieve? Do you really know what you are talking about?



    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Where and how Minato got Hiraishin from has already been explained in the Manga.
    Please, for your credibility, show me where and how he got it. Bring me some fact given in the manga.



    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Minato is not from a genius bloodline. Minatos character is to be THAT ordinary guy, like Jiraiya etc He is powerful because of his ambition and his endless drive to achieve etc etc not because of some special trait. Dont degrade his character please.
    His own blood is geniune, and this is my point. Now, you can convince yourself that it popped from nowhere. A regular guy flying at speed closed to teleportation. Obito with his Sharingan couldn't even see him coming with a body flicker. Are you serious about him?

    === Anyways, let wait for Kishi to give answers ===

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I agree, you still need to work hard. Difference is the level of hard work Neji and Sasuke would have to put in to learn something is significantly less than someone like Lee or Naruto would have to put in. Not to mention, Naruto and Lee would need 10 times as much time to learn said skill or what have you

    . And again, Naruto didn't literally learn FRS quickly. In real time it only took him 3 days, but in his mind he trained for decades in order to accomplish it.
    When it comes to learning something and do it, Naruto is faster than anyone in the manga. Sasuke can understand things easily than Naruto, but it has not been shown that he can achieve the Jutsu faster than Naruto. Sasuke spent many days ( or one month) on Chidori and Lee's Jutsu despite having copied them or receive explanation from Kakashi. He even could use his Sharingan to manipulate shape as well - yet he spend a month.

    Naruto learned the Rasengan in a week, and believe me, his problem was that his body couldn't keep up with the power of the technique. Understanding and achieving the result are different. Sasuke and Neiji have an advantage with their eyes for understanding movements, processes, etc. But Naruto's advantage is the real thing, the body to do. When a Jutsu is not Sharingan related, Naruto is the fastest.
    Last edited by so6pww; January 28, 2013 at 02:19 PM.

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