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Thread: Bleach 524 Discussion

  1. #226
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkBankai's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    The battle between zakari and unohana was predictable this week, totally owning zakari-
    some of the comments in the thread talk about her healing zanpaktou, then I thought to myself, why does it have to be that way,
    If we examine ichigo- he wants to protect, so his zanpaktou is that which allows him to protect, for him its a combat based zanpaktou, but Unohana was already a killer, and wanted to be a healer for whatever reason. maybe her and her zanpaktou changed when she became a healer and set aside the kenpachi title.

    I think that Unohana changed her zanpaktou when she became a healer.

    ~ what I am suggesting; she knows the royal guard. perhaps when she set aside the title of kenpachi, she also changed her zanpaktou and started with the healing stingray thing, vs whatever she had before.- perhaps an octopus of doom or something- who knows.

    If afrosan can manifest multiple zanpaktou, why cant she change hers? all she would do is manifest a zanpaktou that focued on healing and not killing.
    I have not seen it stated that once a zanpaktou is manifested that its shape cannot change.

    thoughts?
    Last edited by DarkBankai; January 28, 2013 at 10:04 AM.

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  3. #227
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBankai View Post
    Theory:
    does anyone think that Unohana changed her zanpaktou when she became a healer?

    ~ what I am suggesting; she knows the royal guard. perhaps when she set aside the title of kenpachi, she also changed her zanpaktou and started with the healing stingray thing, vs whatever she had before.- perhaps an octopus of doom or something- who knows.

    If afrosan can manifest multiple zanpaktou, why cant she change hers? all she would do is manifest a zanpaktou that focued on healing and not killing.
    I have not seen it stated that once a zanpaktou is manifested that its shape cannot change.

    thoughts?
    Octopus of doom
    Nice man
    Good theory though. I still think that she has same sword as when she was fighting Zaraki for the first time mainly because I do think that her powers had something to do her sin- what she did to Ken-chan.

  4. #228
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Well, there would be two things to consider if that is plausible at all:

    1.- Can a shinigami get a second zampakuto?
    2.- If a second zampakuto can be obtained, would it be different from the previous one in terms of ability?

    Overall I would think that the answer to both questions is no. Even if the zampakuto starts out as a separate being from a shinigami the relationship between them does seem to become stronger and perhaps more intimate and necessary as time goes on. An asauchi does seem to in some ways become part of the shinigami over time (that is a requirement for the asauchi to actually be a separate being from a shinigami and for what has been said of zampakuto before to remain true, in particular the part about zampakuto being part of the soul of a shinigami). Anyways, if a shinigami can actually get more than one zampakuto then wouldn't it make sense that every shinigami simply carries as many zampakuto as he can hold? Overall it means more weapons in battle and zanjutsu training simply has to change from the standard one to a two handed one.

    Now, the second part. The explanation given in the manga is that asauchi take in the essence of the shinigami's soul and become the zampakuto that we regularly see. In that regard, why would a second zampakuto be different from the first one? It might have a different name and personality however the abilities it posseses should still be based on the essence of the soul of the shinigami. Unless the essence of the soul of a shinigami can change then I don't see how getting a second zampakuto would help a shinigami in getting more abilities.

    Now, mayuri is prove that a zampakuto can be modified however to what extent is such a thing possible? Mayuri has modified his bankai however in the occasions we have seen it its abilities have remained largely the same. I have my doubts about a shinigami being able to modify his zampakuto to such an extreme. In any case, if the zampakuto already takes in the essence of a shinigami then ideally whatever ability a zampakuto ends up having would likely be about as ideal as it can be for a given shinigami given that it is basically his essence. In the end the idea of a zampakuto with the sole ability to destroy stuff being modified to do the exact opposite and furthermore a shinigami being able to use it appropriately is a tad weird.

  5. #229
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Lee.J.Baxter's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    I'm thinking that Unohana's Minazuki's Bankai is responsible for Zaraki's immortality, as a result of its 'catch'...

    I think Unohana's Bankai grants her immortality for a certain amount of time after she cuts her opponent, after which she loses that immortality and her opponent gains it. Under normal circumstances, there are 2 outcomes to her using her Bankai; either she kills her opponent and her immortality is lost after her opponent dies, or she takes too long in defeating her opponent and they gain immortality and kill her (which in turn results in the deactivation of Minazuki's powers and thus the opponent's immortality). In other words, in normal circumstances, the immortality that Minazuki grants is temporary.

    However, in this case it looks as though Unohana took too long in defeating him, and the powers of immortality switched over to Zaraki, but for whatever reason Zaraki didn't succeed in killing Unohana (either she convinced him not to kill her, or he mistook her for dead, or she escaped from the battle; I'm guessing the 'sin' is that Unohana didn't meet her end of the fight-to-the-death). This means that Minazuki's power has remained active, granting Zaraki immortality until he kills Unohana!

    For that reason, I think Unohana is going to be the one who dies, either to Zaraki or to another opponent (I'm guessing that she won't be able to use her Bankai anymore, as it's already in effect with Zaraki, so she could easily be defeated without her powers of immortality). In short, she's kinda just been prolonging her death-sentence!
    Last edited by Lee.J.Baxter; January 28, 2013 at 11:48 AM.
    Predictions
    • Quincies become latent Shinigami when they die, meaning Yhwach is the progenitor of the Shinigami too.
    • The star and name "Quincy" refers to the 5 Royal Guards and the Soul King; this originates in Yhwach wanting to overthrow him.
    • The final battle within the Seireitei will be between Zaraki and Haschwalth.

  6. #230
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkBankai's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    well im not suggesting unohana is getting a second zanpaktou-
    Im suggesting that she has changed the manifestation appearance and function of her shikai, and possibly bankai.
    It would be like a soldier helping the wounded in combat. Just because the soldier learns how to do first aid- doesnt mean that he cant pick up a rifle and attack.

    I state this is possible because the shinigami can learn.
    therefore its spirit zanpaktou can also learn.

    If a shinigami like unohana who knows every style of fighting wants to be a healer, then her zanpaktou will want to be a healer. If she can learn to heal, her zanpaktou can learn to heal. stingrays also have a powerful tail barb- (attack) and her stingray zanpaktou form can heal with its stomach juices. (healing)

    that manifestation may not even be the only one she has access to, she is as old as CC was before he got killed, and until the battle with CC and Bach, we didnt really know how versatile a bankai could be. CC had a bankai north east south and west.

  7. #231
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, there would be two things to consider if that is plausible at all:

    1.- Can a shinigami get a second zampakuto?
    2.- If a second zampakuto can be obtained, would it be different from the previous one in terms of ability?

    Overall I would think that the answer to both questions is no. Even if the zampakuto starts out as a separate being from a shinigami the relationship between them does seem to become stronger and perhaps more intimate and necessary as time goes on. An asauchi does seem to in some ways become part of the shinigami over time (that is a requirement for the asauchi to actually be a separate being from a shinigami and for what has been said of zampakuto before to remain true, in particular the part about zampakuto being part of the soul of a shinigami). Anyways, if a shinigami can actually get more than one zampakuto then wouldn't it make sense that every shinigami simply carries as many zampakuto as he can hold? Overall it means more weapons in battle and zanjutsu training simply has to change from the standard one to a two handed one.

    Now, the second part. The explanation given in the manga is that asauchi take in the essence of the shinigami's soul and become the zampakuto that we regularly see. In that regard, why would a second zampakuto be different from the first one? It might have a different name and personality however the abilities it posseses should still be based on the essence of the soul of the shinigami. Unless the essence of the soul of a shinigami can change then I don't see how getting a second zampakuto would help a shinigami in getting more abilities.

    Now, mayuri is prove that a zampakuto can be modified however to what extent is such a thing possible? Mayuri has modified his bankai however in the occasions we have seen it its abilities have remained largely the same. I have my doubts about a shinigami being able to modify his zampakuto to such an extreme. In any case, if the zampakuto already takes in the essence of a shinigami then ideally whatever ability a zampakuto ends up having would likely be about as ideal as it can be for a given shinigami given that it is basically his essence. In the end the idea of a zampakuto with the sole ability to destroy stuff being modified to do the exact opposite and furthermore a shinigami being able to use it appropriately is a tad weird.
    The closest example we have to something like that is Yumichika's Zanpakuto. But he doesn't make his Zanpakuto use a different ability, wheat he does is suppress it's true ability. The 5 bladed sickle form doesn't have any powers, it's just a shape that's somewhat reflective of his actual Shikai. It's more of a mid-point between Shikai and fully sealed form. Minazuki is an inherently healing-type Zan - that's it's ability. I agree, you shouldn't be able to make a Zanpakuto carry out an ability contrary to it's nature, probably not even through the modification Mayuri was talking about (whose Bankai was effectively identical after he "modified" it - you'd think a guy like Mayuri would make changes and improvements if it were a possibility). So as far as I can tell, Unohana's sword is a healing type and that's all there is to it. That in itself is strange though, given her nature. Like you said, a Zanpakuto is supposed to be a reflection of it's wielder, so for a mass murdering psycho to have a healing blade is odd.

    I don't think the giant stingray form of Minzauki is her Shikai at all, it's just her manifesting her Zan spirit, which just happens to have healing properties. When Ichigo fought Zaraki, Zangetsu told him he was working to stop Ichigo's bleeding, but Zangetsu (the shikai) and Tensa Zangetsu have no such abilities whatsoever. It's possible that healing might just be something Unohana can make her Zan spirit do, but which has nothing to do with her actual Shikai and Bankai. If her Shikai is indeed a healing type, it could be to do with her desire to prolong and savour battles. Like how in the latest novel, Kenpachi's Zan was hinted to have the ability to limit his strength to match his opponents so he can properly experience battle, maybe Minazuki has a similar nature, but works by healing the enemy to make them last.

  8. #232
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBankai View Post
    well im not suggesting unohana is getting a second zanpaktou-
    Im suggesting that she has changed the manifestation appearance and function of her shikai, and possibly bankai.
    It would be like a soldier helping the wounded in combat. Just because the soldier learns how to do first aid- doesnt mean that he cant pick up a rifle and attack.

    I state this is possible because the shinigami can learn.
    therefore its spirit zanpaktou can also learn.

    If a shinigami like unohana who knows every style of fighting wants to be a healer, then her zanpaktou will want to be a healer. If she can learn to heal, her zanpaktou can learn to heal. stingrays also have a powerful tail barb- (attack) and her stingray zanpaktou form can heal with its stomach juices. (healing)

    that manifestation may not even be the only one she has access to, she is as old as CC was before he got killed, and until the battle with CC and Bach, we didnt really know how versatile a bankai could be. CC had a bankai north east south and west.
    Well, it depends on to what extent a zampakuto's intrinsic abilities are "learned". The explanation given in the manga about asauchi becoming standard zampakuto does not imply learning, it implies a change happening to the asauchi due to exposure to the essence of the shinigami. The standard situation is that academy students are given asauchi, basically a point at which the shinigami themselves would not regularly have any particular traits other than their personality as they would have yet to learn control, kendo or kido. The asauchi can indeed become anything however the idea that a zampakuto can change to something else once it already has a name and a set of abilities is a tad weird. I can buy a shinigami and a zampakuto working together to develop new techniques within the realm of the natural abilities of a zampakuto (which I suspect urahara does with shikai and perhaps applies to each named form byakuya's bankai has) however the situation you describe is about a zampakuto with specific traits and abilities developing entirely different intrinsic abilities. To put it in context, would we expect yamamoto's or hitsugaya's zampakutos to change to ice and fire respectively if the two of them go through deep emotional or personal changes?

    Perhaps even evidence of this not happening would be good old yumichikai. The guy hates his zampakuto's kido like abilities yet he still has the same zampakuto. If he had a say or his personality and preferences had relevance in regards to what his abilities are then he would be the prime candidate to have a change in abilities. In turn all he has managed is to stop his release halfway so that it gets a few useless extra blades. Yumichika does not have two releases, he has a single one which he partially releases into an inconvenient shape by literally pissing off his zampakuto. If a zampakuto could just "learn" abilities then yumichika's would have already learned a new shikai which would fit yumichika's lifestyle better.

  9. #233
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ca12nag3's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, there would be two things to consider if that is plausible at all:

    1.- Can a shinigami get a second zampakuto?
    2.- If a second zampakuto can be obtained, would it be different from the previous one in terms of ability?

    Overall I would think that the answer to both questions is no. Even if the zampakuto starts out as a separate being from a shinigami the relationship between them does seem to become stronger and perhaps more intimate and necessary as time goes on. An asauchi does seem to in some ways become part of the shinigami over time (that is a requirement for the asauchi to actually be a separate being from a shinigami and for what has been said of zampakuto before to remain true, in particular the part about zampakuto being part of the soul of a shinigami). Anyways, if a shinigami can actually get more than one zampakuto then wouldn't it make sense that every shinigami simply carries as many zampakuto as he can hold? Overall it means more weapons in battle and zanjutsu training simply has to change from the standard one to a two handed one.

    Now, the second part. The explanation given in the manga is that asauchi take in the essence of the shinigami's soul and become the zampakuto that we regularly see. In that regard, why would a second zampakuto be different from the first one? It might have a different name and personality however the abilities it posseses should still be based on the essence of the soul of the shinigami. Unless the essence of the soul of a shinigami can change then I don't see how getting a second zampakuto would help a shinigami in getting more abilities.

    Now, mayuri is prove that a zampakuto can be modified however to what extent is such a thing possible? Mayuri has modified his bankai however in the occasions we have seen it its abilities have remained largely the same. I have my doubts about a shinigami being able to modify his zampakuto to such an extreme. In any case, if the zampakuto already takes in the essence of a shinigami then ideally whatever ability a zampakuto ends up having would likely be about as ideal as it can be for a given shinigami given that it is basically his essence. In the end the idea of a zampakuto with the sole ability to destroy stuff being modified to do the exact opposite and furthermore a shinigami being able to use it appropriately is a tad weird.
    Your answer to your own question takes into thought that it is easy to make a zanpakuto, and this in itself is not true. For 1 to gain 1 you first have to be gifted with power and thats a rarity, then gain the ability to form a sword from your own soul and then train to wield it properly. Im not saying you can or cannot make more then 1, but the odds of even making 1 is rare. If its possible to forge a 2nd one its beyond whats considered common. And this royal guard has as many zanpakuto as huge hefner has chicks in his mansion. Because he has so many zanpakuto in his castle doesnt make it common. So for anyone to forge a 2nd one isnt impossible just a rare thing to see.

  10. #234
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    The closest example we have to something like that is Yumichika's Zanpakuto. But he doesn't make his Zanpakuto use a different ability, wheat he does is suppress it's true ability. The 5 bladed sickle form doesn't have any powers, it's just a shape that's somewhat reflective of his actual Shikai. It's more of a mid-point between Shikai and fully sealed form. Minazuki is an inherently healing-type Zan - that's it's ability. I agree, you shouldn't be able to make a Zanpakuto carry out an ability contrary to it's nature, probably not even through the modification Mayuri was talking about (whose Bankai was effectively identical after he "modified" it - you'd think a guy like Mayuri would make changes and improvements if it were a possibility). So as far as I can tell, Unohana's sword is a healing type and that's all there is to it. That in itself is strange though, given her nature. Like you said, a Zanpakuto is supposed to be a reflection of it's wielder, so for a mass murdering psycho to have a healing blade is odd.

    I don't think the giant stingray form of Minzauki is her Shikai at all, it's just her manifesting her Zan spirit, which just happens to have healing properties. When Ichigo fought Zaraki, Zangetsu told him he was working to stop Ichigo's bleeding, but Zangetsu (the shikai) and Tensa Zangetsu have no such abilities whatsoever. It's possible that healing might just be something Unohana can make her Zan spirit do, but which has nothing to do with her actual Shikai and Bankai. If her Shikai is indeed a healing type, it could be to do with her desire to prolong and savour battles. Like how in the latest novel, Kenpachi's Zan was hinted to have the ability to limit his strength to match his opponents so he can properly experience battle, maybe Minazuki has a similar nature, but works by healing the enemy to make them last.
    I finished writing my previous post before I saw your own(the yumichikai part is basically the same I wrote).

    Anyways, I don't think that what we saw what minazuki's form in the real world like when we saw renji and ichigo training for bankai. How would that work? Contextually it makes little sense IMO and we actually saw minazuki revert to the sealed zampakuto form later on. If materialized zampakuto could be used in such a fashion then I would think seeing materialized zampakuto from captains should be a more common occurrence to some degree. We also don't know if unohana has a desire to prolong and savor battles though, she was a criminal and a kenpachi however she is not necessarily a literal female zaraki.

    With unohana we have to consider the possibility of her simply using kido with her blade though. She is a doctor after all, it is entirely possible that she has a kido related technique which allows her to phase her blade through things she cuts and cut only what she wants or perhaps a technique which heals a cut as soon as it is done. Either would be useful for a doctor as far as we know.

    ---------- Post added at 12:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ca12nag3 View Post
    Your answer to your own question takes into thought that it is easy to make a zanpakuto, and this in itself is not true. For 1 to gain 1 you first have to be gifted with power and thats a rarity, then gain the ability to form a sword from your own soul and then train to wield it properly. Im not saying you can or cannot make more then 1, but the odds of even making 1 is rare. If its possible to forge a 2nd one its beyond whats considered common. And this royal guard has as many zanpakuto as huge hefner has chicks in his mansion. Because he has so many zanpakuto in his castle doesnt make it common. So for anyone to forge a 2nd one isnt impossible just a rare thing to see.
    Except that shinigami don't have to make souls to get a zampakuto or make zampakuto. The only maker of zampakuto out there is nimaiya, that is his thing. Hypothetically the very asauchi ichigo and renji are fighting will eventually make it to the hands of academy students and they will take on a form and a name based on the souls of the shinigami who owns them. In all likelihood all the girls they met at niimaiya's palace are just asauchi who took girls forms to mess with ichigo and renji and the only zampakuto there who actually "belongs" to nimaiya is the one actually named "mera-chan".

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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Except that shinigami don't have to make souls to get a zampakuto or make zampakuto. The only maker of zampakuto out there is nimaiya, that is his thing. Hypothetically the very asauchi ichigo and renji are fighting will eventually make it to the hands of academy students and they will take on a form and a name based on the souls of the shinigami who owns them. In all likelihood all the girls they met at niimaiya's palace are just asauchi who took girls forms to mess with ichigo and renji and the only zampakuto there who actually "belongs" to nimaiya is the one actually named "mera-chan".
    Thats a lot of asumptions that just happen to stack in favor of your line of thought.

    True there is the Asauchi, but we see their form is not as hugging cuddly as the girls before. Also he called them Zanpakuto before introducing the Asauchi. What im interested in is not per say the functionality of ones zanpakuto and the bond 1 creates with it. But the possibility that you can make a new one, if your skilled enough that is.
    So far the Phoenix palance guard is rather blunt and straight forward, both Ichigo and Renji do not have the skill to reforge their Zanpakuto. making another would therefore be even more impossible.
    My main reasoning is that you can do it if you got the skills thats all.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member DarkBankai's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Some great replies- very interesting- I am now more excited than before for this weeks upcoming chapter- and I hope we at least get a 50/50 split with ichigo and unohana.

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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by ca12nag3 View Post
    Thats a lot of asumptions that just happen to stack in favor of your line of thought.

    True there is the Asauchi, but we see their form is not as hugging cuddly as the girls before. Also he called them Zanpakuto before introducing the Asauchi. What im interested in is not per say the functionality of ones zanpakuto and the bond 1 creates with it. But the possibility that you can make a new one, if your skilled enough that is.
    So far the Phoenix palance guard is rather blunt and straight forward, both Ichigo and Renji do not have the skill to reforge their Zanpakuto. making another would therefore be even more impossible.
    My main reasoning is that you can do it if you got the skills thats all.
    The current manga developments do not support the notion that you can make your zampakuto though. No mention or allusion to that has been made to that during the entirety of the manga as of now. The manga facts right now are limited to nameless zampakuto (asauchi) being given to shinigami at some point during their lives and that asauchi eventually bonding with the shinigami. No manga fact or instance reasonably supports the notion that a shinigami (with or without skill) can make a zampakuto. Making zampakuto is as far as we know nimaiya's territory.

    Renji and ichigo getting another zampakuto has the direct implication of the two of them abandoning zangetsu and zabimaru and getting two other completely different guys (although the way zampakuto work suggest potentially new zampakuto would be similar to the old ones as the essence of the shinigami in question would be the same). Plotwise I would argue that is a poor move, specially because of all the time that has already been given to developing zangetsu in particular. More so, it is an incontrovertible manga fact that as of now ichigo and renji are not aiming to get new zampakuto but rather they are aiming to get their old ones reforged. As of now nimaiya has in fact offered to reforged their zampakuto too.

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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBankai View Post
    Some great replies- very interesting- I am now more excited than before for this weeks upcoming chapter- and I hope we at least get a 50/50 split with ichigo and unohana.
    Agreed. I'm at work trying to follow the posts so sorry if I missed this but what do you guys think about the fact that Shunsui and Ukitake both have two zanpakuto? I mean my questions would be, were they given two asauchi? Are they a rare breed who's souls can bee attuned to influence two? And then there was Tousen. Didn't his Zanpaukto belong to a dead friend? If that zanpakuto can be modified (lack of a better word) and wielded by someone other than the original owner then maybe a second one can be obtained as well. Definitely excited for this weeks chapter.

  17. #239
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    It's already stated. Nimaiya said he would consider reforging their zanpakuto. He didn't say anything about Ichigo and Renji taking a part in it. I believe it's just his way of testing them, and perhaps, without the cooperative action from the zanpakuto spirit, the sword cannot be reforged. Nimaiya probably channels the spirit into the katana somehow, that's his way of doing things, although no explanation of how he does it aren't given as of now.

    ---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------

    The two zanpakuto thing has been going around as a theory for some time. While I don't exactly know if they are carrying two zanpakuto or if this is possible, it's not far-fetched to think this unique trait has something unrevealed. Out of numerous Shinigami present and countless that have lived through ages, it's interesting that only two use dual-blades.
    Not sure if there is going to be any elaboration regarding this, but if there was, it would be cool.

  18. #240
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member avantasian's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 524 Discussion / 525 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    It's already stated. Nimaiya said he would consider reforging their zanpakuto. He didn't say anything about Ichigo and Renji taking a part in it. I believe it's just his way of testing them, and perhaps, without the cooperative action from the zanpakuto spirit, the sword cannot be reforged. Nimaiya probably channels the spirit into the katana somehow, that's his way of doing things, although no explanation of how he does it aren't given as of now.

    ---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------

    The two zanpakuto thing has been going around as a theory for some time. While I don't exactly know if they are carrying two zanpakuto or if this is possible, it's not far-fetched to think this unique trait has something unrevealed. Out of numerous Shinigami present and countless that have lived through ages, it's interesting that only two use dual-blades.
    Not sure if there is going to be any elaboration regarding this, but if there was, it would be cool.
    Hisagi could be considered a third.

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