Bleach 524 Discussion

[ca12nag3]

The current manga developments do not support the notion that you can make your zampakuto though. No mention or allusion to that has been made to that during the entirety of the manga as of now. The manga facts right now are limited to nameless zampakuto (asauchi) being given to shinigami at some point during their lives and that asauchi eventually bonding with the shinigami. No manga fact or instance reasonably supports the notion that a shinigami (with or without skill) can make a zampakuto. Making zampakuto is as far as we know nimaiya's territory.

Renji and ichigo getting another zampakuto has the direct implication of the two of them abandoning zangetsu and zabimaru and getting two other completely different guys (although the way zampakuto work suggest potentially new zampakuto would be similar to the old ones as the essence of the shinigami in question would be the same). Plotwise I would argue that is a poor move, specially because of all the time that has already been given to developing zangetsu in particular. More so, it is an incontrovertible manga fact that as of now ichigo and renji are not aiming to get new zampakuto but rather they are aiming to get their old ones reforged. As of now nimaiya has in fact offered to reforged their zampakuto too.

I never implied they would have another one :/ why change my words?

i said,

-they do not have the skill to reforge their zanpakuto
-therefore even more impossible to make another

So for someone to make more then 1 zanpakuto is a tough one, as you already see and its fact that he , the royal guard made lots of m. This doesnt say its something easy but hes just the master of it all. Making them that is.

[kkck]

I never implied they would have another one :/ why change my words?

i said,

-they do not have the skill to reforge their zanpakuto
-therefore even more impossible to make another

So for someone to make more then 1 zanpakuto is a tough one, as you already see and its fact that he , the royal guard made lots of m. This doesnt say its something easy but hes just the master of it all. Making them that is.

Well, your post did say this:

Thats a lot of asumptions that just happen to stack in favor of your line of thought.

True there is the Asauchi, but we see their form is not as hugging cuddly as the girls before. Also he called them Zanpakuto before introducing the Asauchi. What im interested in is not per say the functionality of ones zanpakuto and the bond 1 creates with it. But the possibility that you can make a new one, if your skilled enough that is.
So far the Phoenix palance guard is rather blunt and straight forward, both Ichigo and Renji do not have the skill to reforge their Zanpakuto. making another would therefore be even more impossible.
My main reasoning is that you can do it if you got the skills thats all.

I thought you refered to renji and ichigo making new zampakuto and it being a matter of skill.


Anyways, the manga still has yet to imply that it is even vaguely possible for a normal shinigami to actually make a sword regardless of skill. The situation is on many fronts actually illogical. The average shinigami starts out at the academy. They go there because they do not have skills in order to learn skills. At this point they are given asauchi with which they spend every waking moment. Now, at which point of this would it make sense for a shinigami to make a zampakuto over getting one? A situation where a shinigami gets to make a zampakuto in the context you suggest has the implication that he trained and acquire both power and skills without ever getting a zampakuto. Then there is the situation of exactly at which point a shinigami can be considered to have either power or skill. Is that for captain level shinigami? vice captain level shinigami? Seated officers? Single captain is superior to an army of standard VCs. A single VCs is likely superior to all standard seated officers. A single officer is superior to your average shinigami. Most academy graduates don't have the power or skill to be average shinigami. So.... in the most optimistic scenario a person would have to get to at least the power level and skill of an average shinigami without getting a zampakuto in order to make his own? Why would anyone do that? For that matter, if the process at any point includes even a sliver of kido then the situation is even more absurd as many of those somewhat high in the power rank are usually bad at kido and even those who are adequate at it barely use it for the most part....

The way the manga has presented the situation so far is that no one can make zampakuto other than nimaiya (not yamamoto, not aizen, not urahara) and he is the only one that can reforge them (mayuri is in a worst case scenario the third greatest mind in bleach and his solution to ichigo's bankai predicament was a big "can't be done, you screwed").

[Lee.J.Baxter]

IMO, Unohana's Zanpakutou hasn't changed in nature; it looks like it may have given Zaraki immortality, which fits in with the whole healing thing.

Okay, another theory; if Unohana's abilities are healing-based, it may be that Unohana's "sin" may actually be transferring her powers to Zaraki and turning him into a Shinigami, in the same way that Rukia initially gave Ichigo his powers...

Come to think of it, we didn't actually see Zangetzu BEFORE Ichigo's own powers were awakened; I reckon that whilst Ichigo was using his temporary powers, his Zanpakutou's spirit may have been Sode no Shirayuki. This may explain why the process of transferring powers is forbidden; it essentially makes both Shinigami align to the same Zanpakutou spirit (which would make sense, since they're sharing the original Shinigami's powers). This means that Zaraki's Zanpakutou would also be Minizuki, giving him healing powers.

I also reckon that, if I'm right about the above, Zaraki KNOWS that his Zanpakutou is Minazuki, and deliberately refrains from using its powers because they're not his own. The only time he uses them is subconsciously, when he's about to die.

[shane1594]

IMO, Unohana's Zanpakutou hasn't changed in nature; it looks like it may have given Zaraki immortality, which fits in with the whole healing thing.

Okay, another theory; if Unohana's abilities are healing-based, it may be that Unohana's "sin" may actually be transferring her powers to Zaraki and turning him into a Shinigami, in the same way that Rukia initially gave Ichigo his powers...

Come to think of it, we didn't actually see Zangetzu BEFORE Ichigo's own powers were awakened; I reckon that whilst Ichigo was using his temporary powers, his Zanpakutou's spirit may have been Sode no Shirayuki. This may explain why the process of transferring powers is forbidden; it essentially makes both Shinigami align to the same Zanpakutou spirit (which would make sense, since they're sharing the original Shinigami's powers). This means that Zaraki's Zanpakutou would also be Minizuki, giving him healing powers.

I also reckon that, if I'm right about the above, Zaraki KNOWS that his Zanpakutou is Minazuki, and deliberately refrains from using its powers because they're not his own. The only time he uses them is subconsciously, when he's about to die.

Or maybe not. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. The easiest example to explain why this is not the case would be directly after his fight with Ichigo.

[mattiaildivino]

since we are in volume 59,I hope kubo won't use this as an opportunity to show again the fullbringers,who appeared for the first time 10 volumes ago: in vol.49.

[Kados]

About this Asauchi thing, has nobody considered the manner in which Ichigo even got Zangetsu? He wasn't exactly given an asauchi, the closest you could come to saying that is when he first received Rukia's shinigami powers. However, not only was that sword not an asauchi per se, his own actual shinigami form came with it's own busted sword at first. This wasn't a blade given to him by anybody, let alone an asauchi given him by Soul Society.

That considered, what makes it impossible for other shinigami back in the day to have done the same? Perhaps "#1 Zanpaktou creator" simply means he was the first(and to date only) individual capable of forging 'blank' zanpaktou for would-be shinigami, that is to say, souls that were not capable of becoming shinigami on their own. It honestly makes me question the very root of zanpaktou and shinigami alike. What if, prior to the academy, all shinigami were 'natural' shinigami? Born into the form and function, similar to Ichigo's transformation into a shinigami of his own right.

Isn't it possible, then, that asauchi were created in attempt to expand the shinigami army? To give lower ranking non-shinigami souls the ability to become shinigami, acting as a catalyst for Yamamoto to set up his academy. Just a ponderance.


Sorry, got a bit off topic there I suppose. As for this next chapter, I expect we'll be getting a look at what Ichigo and Renji are up to, and perhaps a bit more action from the two Kenpachis. I also believe we'll be getting a brief look into what the rest of (what's left of) soul society is doing. Perhaps we'll find out for sure who came over the radio when the Zero Division arrived(but I expect that will come later).

Now if you'll excuse me, I feel the need to fade back into lurk mode. For the next year or whatever my average is..

[DarkBankai]

About this Asauchi thing, has nobody considered the manner in which Ichigo even got Zangetsu? He wasn't exactly given an asauchi, the closest you could come to saying that is when he first received Rukia's shinigami powers. However, not only was that sword not an asauchi per se, his own actual shinigami form came with it's own busted sword at first. This wasn't a blade given to him by anybody, let alone an asauchi given him by Soul Society.

That considered, what makes it impossible for other shinigami back in the day to have done the same? Perhaps "#1 Zanpaktou creator" simply means he was the first(and to date only) individual capable of forging 'blank' zanpaktou for would-be shinigami, that is to say, souls that were not capable of becoming shinigami on their own. It honestly makes me question the very root of zanpaktou and shinigami alike. What if, prior to the academy, all shinigami were 'natural' shinigami? Born into the form and function, similar to Ichigo's transformation into a shinigami of his own right.

Isn't it possible, then, that asauchi were created in attempt to expand the shinigami army? To give lower ranking non-shinigami souls the ability to become shinigami, acting as a catalyst for Yamamoto to set up his academy. Just a ponderance.


Sorry, got a bit off topic there I suppose. As for this next chapter, I expect we'll be getting a look at what Ichigo and Renji are up to, and perhaps a bit more action from the two Kenpachis. I also believe we'll be getting a brief look into what the rest of (what's left of) soul society is doing. Perhaps we'll find out for sure who came over the radio when the Zero Division arrived(but I expect that will come later).

Now if you'll excuse me, I feel the need to fade back into lurk mode. For the next year or whatever my average is..

actually- Its in both the manga and the anime-
I was watching this episode and they talk about the asauchi in ichigos inner world.
so he has used one.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/43010#i0,p38,d0

zangetsu gave him one lol

when kenpachi broke his zanpaktou and he went into his inner world and fought hollow ichigo for the first time.

---
but to elaborate on your point- when rukia (who already had shikai) gave her powers to ichigo she fed raw energy to his latent shinigami powers that were dormant.

Those powers developed and gained in strength as I suspect the asauchi do when given to low level shinigami.
then when he was in the shattered shaft he pulled zangetsu from the box.
it was shortly after that, during the fight with urahara that he first materialized and could HEAR zangetsu.

then later in the rescue arc, he got his zanpaktou broken in that fight, and while he lays there dying, zangetsu materialized and took him to the inner world where zangetsu himself, throws an asauchi at him as he fights hichigo.

---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

yeas I also think that the asauchi serve the purpose of increasing the rate at which souls with potential become shinigami likely 1000 fold over the normal rate.
as an asauchi is not required but very helpful in the process of creating a zanpaktou.

I say not required because afro san didnt have one until he made one.

[mattiaildivino]

About this Asauchi thing, has nobody considered the manner in which Ichigo even got Zangetsu? He wasn't exactly given an asauchi, the closest you could come to saying that is when he first received Rukia's shinigami powers. However, not only was that sword not an asauchi per se, his own actual shinigami form came with it's own busted sword at first. This wasn't a blade given to him by anybody, let alone an asauchi given him by Soul Society.

That considered, what makes it impossible for other shinigami back in the day to have done the same? Perhaps "#1 Zanpaktou creator" simply means he was the first(and to date only) individual capable of forging 'blank' zanpaktou for would-be shinigami, that is to say, souls that were not capable of becoming shinigami on their own. It honestly makes me question the very root of zanpaktou and shinigami alike. What if, prior to the academy, all shinigami were 'natural' shinigami? Born into the form and function, similar to Ichigo's transformation into a shinigami of his own right.

Isn't it possible, then, that asauchi were created in attempt to expand the shinigami army? To give lower ranking non-shinigami souls the ability to become shinigami, acting as a catalyst for Yamamoto to set up his academy. Just a ponderance.


Sorry, got a bit off topic there I suppose. As for this next chapter, I expect we'll be getting a look at what Ichigo and Renji are up to, and perhaps a bit more action from the two Kenpachis. I also believe we'll be getting a brief look into what the rest of (what's left of) soul society is doing. Perhaps we'll find out for sure who came over the radio when the Zero Division arrived(but I expect that will come later).

Now if you'll excuse me, I feel the need to fade back into lurk mode. For the next year or whatever my average is..

well,it was a normal sword at its beginning,then he improved and transformed it thorugh using shikai and then bankai. I'm more interested in how the shinigami used to fight before achieving zampakuto.

[DarkBankai]

and if there are 6000 shinigami with asauchi it seems reasonable only 6 would become shinigami without one.

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------

good question- I suspect in a similar way-
using normal weapons that they then surrounded with their reiatsu, like ichigo holding getsuga tenshou to the blade.

a weapon surrounded with reiatsu would cut a hollow.

eventually they could have learned to manifest a blade from reiatsu alone.which would be the zanpaktou we all know of currently.

[Sky Render]

since we are in volume 59,I hope kubo won't use this as an opportunity to show again the fullbringers,who appeared for the first time 10 volumes ago: in vol.49.

The Fullbringers are coming 100% guaranteed. At least we'll get Tsukishima and Ginjo, two of the coolest. Kutsuzawa will probably not get much screentime. Hopefully.

[kkck]

I wonder how the whole being dead thing will affect the fullbringers. Ginjo was a shinigami in the past, will he get his powers back? How will he be affected as a soul by the hollow powers he had/has as a fullbringer? I am guessing tsukishima is not about to become a shinigami, even if he is given a zampakuto it is very likely the whole essence absorbing thing takes years or at least more time than what they have. It would be interesting if it is possible for an asauchi to kinda devour a fullbring seeing how a fullbring and asauchi seem to have some points in common.

[NoOneInParticular]

Right now I suppose the Fullbringers are Plusses with a hint of Hollow power. But the fact that they were able to manifest abilities when they were humans would suggest that they have latent spiritual potential, which might mean they can become Shinigami. If that's right and they do, that would make them natural hybrids, not unlike Ichigo. But in Ichigo's case, his Fullbring seems to have fused with his Shinigami powers. Maybe the Fullbringers will acquire Shinigami powers that are reflective of their Fullbrings then. I'm mostly interested in seeing what becomes of Ginjou's powers. I wouldn't be surprised if they stay the same as before he died though...

Speaking of Fullbringers, I wonder what became of Yukio? Riruka escaped, but she wasn't villainous like him. Last we saw of him, Hitsugaya had him imprisoned, so Soul Society might have taken steps to actually deal with him. I wonder if Mayuri got his hands on him, since I'm sure he'd relish the opportunity to experiment on rare specimens like the Fullbringers. But Yukio's crimes weren't really against Soul Society, so I don't know what they'd imprison him for, or where. Urahara may have been tasked with keeping an eye on him.

[Manta33]

Fullbringer, Quincy, Hollow, Arrancar, and Shinigami..all have reiatsu, the difference is in the manifestation. Aizen was capable of giving hollows zanpaktou which produced a different result then the one's of shinigami, but I think there is a hint there. We know that it acts as a condenser bc of king fisher with his giant sword. However Nimaiya explains that the blades aren't manifestations of there souls. So maybe the asuachi are more like a secondary container for a shinigami's spirit. And in bankai the spirit truly becomes the blade while in shikai it is more of transfer of reiatsu. It would explains why Quincy can only steal bankai because a shinigami's soul is only outside of his or her body at that time making it vulnerable. And scarred souls don't heal meaning bankai can take permeneat damage. Still asuachi have personas it would seem..so maybe thinking of them as containers isnt quite right, maybe they are substitue souls that allow for the exchange between a shinigami and zanpaktou...kon is there for reason, being an artificial soul and all. Who knows japanese and can tell us what the asua part of asuachi means...chi is spirit..so what is the semantics telling us?

I wonder if Kon will become Ichigos asuachi...

[fawz]

Here is my prediction. I think that actually Unohana might die, but I also think that her situation might be an excuse to bring Aizen Sousuke back from the jail to help the shinigami with his powers. I'm still interested in why did he change the time-space notion of Juha Bach to save everybody's as$. I'm sorry, but the one who have saved Soul Society was indeed Aizen this time.

[eripho]

Ch 525 :

http://www.mangainn.com/manga/chapter/98728_