Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/8/14 - 9/14/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
New Reply
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 41

Thread: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

  1. #1
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Sanga Au79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Country
    United States
    Posts
    56
    Post Thanks / Like

    Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    After reading 616 and seeing the Snake team back on panels, I looked back on the chapters right before they kind of disappeared and began thinking of their potential involvement..
    All I could think of is the curse seal and some type of connection to Jugo's clan ability. Since the curse seal is basically an altered form of senjutsu and with Kabuto's final appearance being the key tie-in for the concept/jutsu I'm thinking Suigetsu was aiming at Sasuke to master senjutsu fully in order to do whatever is on that scroll.

    Which brings me to my next theory/point that Orochimaru on his own wanted to find or release the Juubi for whatever purposes he's after (explaining his true involvement in akatsuki..to gain a pair of sharingan and progress them to rinnegan on his own...Danzo, Yamato, etc were just test runs and experiments to perfect what was needed to control the Gedo/Juubi).

    With Senju and Uchiha , Oro would have the formula for the SO6P realm abilities...which if he released the Juubi on his own he would be right where Obito and Madara are in the War..BUT the two of them are displaying difficulty with control and plan to have more pending the transformation. However, Orochimaru having time to build upon the research (which according to Kabuto was correct) about Madara/S06p/Hashirama took into account one thing..Natural Energy or Senjutsu...which is where had been putting all of his effort into perfecting the Curse Seal from Jugo's natural ability.

    His approach could be instead of directly controlling or becoming the host of the Juubi, be, syncing with the Juubi and using Senjutsu principles to use the Juubi's very own flux and influence to control itself, maybe a tactic the S06P used himself (?)

    I have also consider alternate scenarios where Madara has had Black Zetsu as the ace up his sleeve to carry out his own form of what I just explained Orochimaru doing. With Zetsu being based from the Gedo which is the Juubi but with Madara's influence, there is room for someone of his level to finagle a Natural Energy channel or some way of finishing the job. Another alternate is that the person or people Snake are on their way to meet are another form of Zetsu which would again lead the momentum back to Natural Energy and Jugo's innate abilities.



    In either outcome, Naruto will also use his senjutsu ability possibly in tandem with kyubi on a level/combination we've yet seen to combat whichever party (Snake or The 2 Uchiha) they face.
    Last edited by Sanga Au79; January 20, 2013 at 02:08 AM.

  2. Like 2 Member(s) likes this post
  3. #2
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Adv2011's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Country
    Netherlands
    Age
    24
    Posts
    165
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    possible powerup for sasuke
    Tobi: no power surpasses my eternal mangeyko sharingan!
    Itachi: Kabuto, to think that you surpassed orochimaru is amazing on it’s own, yet i believe you still have much to learn, especially about who you are deal(?) “dealing?” with

    Failll ^^

  4. #3
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,170
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    You know... I was gonna post a thread called "Sage Mode Sasuke would not be an asspull, and here's why".

    I never got around to it because I'm lazy. But I guess I can post it here without it being offtopic.

    Basically, my logic was that, whether Sasuke knew all the specifics or not, he spent 2 years with a pseudo-sage in Orochimaru. He also didn't ever act suprised when it was stated by Kabuto that Orochimaru had attempted to become a Sage after finding Ryuuichido. He at the very least knew OF sage transformation if not the specifics and needs (he also states that he did research on Orochimaru, potentially learning of his senjutsu chakra).

    Then the question of "where would he learn to be a sage if he hasn't found Ryuuichidou, and doesn't have snakes anymore"? Well, Juugo states that all animals have the power to sense things. That's how his birdies keep finding out things that little pea brained animals shouldn't know. This means, potentially, every single animal summoning pact, provided they have the chakra to do so, could become sages, aswell as pass down their sage techniques to human students. Inother words, not just toads and snakes. And potentially hawks.

    Lastly, does Sasuke have the body for it? This is the only potential problem, as you need a large chakra reserve to be able to be a Sage, but Kabuto didn't originally have a large chakra reserve. He overcame this with experimentation. Sasuke could potentially have Juugo's ability to absorb natural energy inside of his body, since Juugo has put his flesh into Sasuke's chest. Also his chakra reserve has improved since years ago.

  5. Like 2 Member(s) likes this post
  6. #4
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    Romania
    Age
    30
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,003
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Well i hope that Sasuke does not get SM... I like that to be Naruto's own thing. I whant Sasuke to get something new, unique to him. Sasuke was never about large chakra capacity and more about refined use of his chakra and power of his eyes. Sasuke going Senju mode (large chakra) would be... I don't know... Not right with the hole Senju vs Uchiha fight that Naruto and Sasuke are destined to have... This is no diferent then Naruto getting a sharingan or rinnegan... Sasuke should keep the eye power and get a rinnegan or something and Naruto should keep his chakra capacity...

    But i gues Sasuke is going to be something like Madara but also get SM... So Sasuke would have Rinnegan, Mokuton, Super Susanoo and SM... As for what Naruto si going to get or his curent power is going to be enough... Well i don't know but i hope this is not going to happen.
    Sasuke with Rinnegan is just about sure at this point and for that he needs Senju DNA aka Hashirama's DNA and that means he also is going to get Mokuton...
    Last edited by xXan; January 21, 2013 at 02:36 AM.

  7. #5
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    290
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanga Au79 View Post
    After reading 616 and seeing the Snake team back on panels, I looked back on the chapters right before they kind of disappeared and began thinking of their potential involvement..
    All I could think of is the curse seal and some type of connection to Jugo's clan ability. Since the curse seal is basically an altered form of senjutsu and with Kabuto's final appearance being the key tie-in for the concept/jutsu I'm thinking Suigetsu was aiming at Sasuke to master senjutsu fully in order to do whatever is on that scroll.
    Here, I want to point that curse seal is not a form of senjutsu. Using curse seal, Orochimaru can seal a piece of some chakra or power in an individual. The fact is that this piece can deplete after some time. This is the opposite of Senjutsu that allow one to pump natural energy and mix it to his own without becoming any type of beast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanga Au79 View Post
    Which brings me to my next theory/point that Orochimaru on his own wanted to find or release the Juubi for whatever purposes he's after (explaining his true involvement in akatsuki..to gain a pair of sharingan and progress them to rinnegan on his own...Danzo, Yamato, etc were just test runs and experiments to perfect what was needed to control the Gedo/Juubi).
    While I cannot say anything because this is a speculation, I can say that Juubi does not have to be in Orochimaru's plan. Orochimaru already made an hypothesis based on Madara's body. So he can obtain Rinnegan after having Sasuke by adding Hashimara's cell. I am pretty sure that Orochimaru's problem was that his own body couldn't tolerate Hashi's cell. This might be the reason he was experimenting on children to find the best candidate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanga Au79 View Post
    With Senju and Uchiha , Oro would have the formula for the SO6P realm abilities...which if he released the Juubi on his own he would be right where Obito and Madara are in the War..BUT the two of them are displaying difficulty with control and plan to have more pending the transformation. However, Orochimaru having time to build upon the research (which according to Kabuto was correct) about Madara/S06p/Hashirama took into account one thing..Natural Energy or Senjutsu...which is where had been putting all of his effort into perfecting the Curse Seal from Jugo's natural ability.
    It is well-known that to take advantage of the Juubi power, one has to become Jinchuriki, which in turn will shorten the lifespan. Thus I doubt Orochimaru is interested in Juubi. Don't forget he wants to know all Justus. His main plan should be Rinnegan and long life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanga Au79 View Post
    His approach could be instead of directly controlling or becoming the host of the Juubi, be, syncing with the Juubi and using Senjutsu principles to use the Juubi's very own flux and influence to control itself, maybe a tactic the S06P used himself (?)
    Very speculative, right? I wonder how he is going to walk around with the huge Juubi. This also mean you don't understand a lot of things. Juubi is a mass of Natural energy, and being a perfect sage mean you have all the natural energy around you. WHy don't you just draw this energy if you can when you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanga Au79 View Post
    I have also consider alternate scenarios where Madara has had Black Zetsu as the ace up his sleeve to carry out his own form of what I just explained Orochimaru doing. With Zetsu being based from the Gedo which is the Juubi but with Madara's influence, there is room for someone of his level to finagle a Natural Energy channel or some way of finishing the job. Another alternate is that the person or people Snake are on their way to meet are another form of Zetsu which would again lead the momentum back to Natural Energy and Jugo's innate abilities.
    Well, I don't understand the principle at all.

    ==== Here is my contribution to what I thought the thread would talk about ====

    1. Juggo clan are some sort of Sage. Unlike the normal Sage, they have animal like behavior and each animal can draw and use the raw natural energy. Thus, if Sasuke is able to implement this feat, he can be able to draw the natural energy of Juugo freely. Note that unlike Naruto's SM that talk about energy from everywhere, Juugo can pump energy from a very specific place.

    2. Orochimaru can give his power to Sasuke, or take Sasuke power and master Juugo's ability after obtaining Rinnegan and doing all the crap to have a strong body.

    After doing the things above, and assuming that Sasuke's body will be a good sage body (which it is not obviously - elder son), they can have a Sage mode along with Rinnegan.

    3. However, I also think curse seal is related to Sharingan. Both of them have the same symbol initially, and Itachi also was looking into the matter as well. This suggest that Orochimaru might be able to complete a possible level of Sharingan. (speculation)

    =====

    Concerning the Ultimate sage mode, I think it is the ultimate toad sage mode. This is because this sage mode draw his energy from everwhere and does not rely on a single source of power like the snake sage mode. I also think that the secret of defeating Juubi is that ultimate (continuous) toad SM because if one is able to achieve it, then he can have all the source of energy of the universe.



    In either outcome, Naruto will also use his senjutsu ability possibly in tandem with kyubi on a level/combination we've yet seen to combat whichever party (Snake or The 2 Uchiha) they face.[/QUOTE]

  8. #6
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,170
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan
    Well i hope that Sasuke does not get SM... I like that to be Naruto's own thing. I whant Sasuke to get something new, unique to him. Sasuke was never about large chakra capacity and more about refined use of his chakra and power of his eyes. Sasuke going Senju mode (large chakra) would be... I don't know... Not right with the hole Senju vs Uchiha fight that Naruto and Sasuke are destined to have... This is no diferent then Naruto getting a sharingan or rinnegan... Sasuke should keep the eye power and get a rinnegan or something and Naruto should keep his chakra capacity...
    I get what you're saying, and agree for the most part... but think about it: even if Sasuke had access to SM, he'd still have less than half of the chakra reserve Naruto does. He'd still have less chakra than Madara, Naruto, Obito, Bee, AND the Juubi. He'd still be the character with less chakra than everyone else, but more impressive usage of that chakra.

    Even better: if he had Sage Mode, he'd never need to aquire the Rinnegan, because SM powered EMS jutsu would be unstoppable. And it would be more unique than him gaining a Rinnegan because he would also potentially gain Mokuton. He'd be a carbon copy of Madara and Obito. Not if he had SM. If he had SM he would just be Sasuke, with stronger attacks.

    Quote Quote:
    But i gues Sasuke is going to be something like Madara but also get SM... So Sasuke would have Rinnegan, Mokuton, Super Susanoo and SM... As for what Naruto si going to get or his curent power is going to be enough... Well i don't know but i hope this is not going to happen.
    Sasuke with Rinnegan is just about sure at this point and for that he needs Senju DNA aka Hashirama's DNA and that means he also is going to get Mokuton...
    See? This would be the only way for Sasuke to remain solely Uchiha, instead of another Uchiha/Senju hybrid like the only other two Uchiha left alive. Hell, it could be Senjutsu that allowed Rikudou Sennin to use the full power of his eyes for all we know. We've yet to see Madara or Obito or Nagato use Banbutsu Souzou.

    ---------- Post added at 10:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

    EDIT: Snake Sage Mode doesn't rely on a different source from Toad Sage Mode. It's still drawing Natural Energy from the environment. The only difference is that Kabuto does so automatically, thus, he never runs out of energy because his body is absorbing it as he needs it.

    It's also inaccurate to say that Snake Sage Mode has a finite amount of power while Toad Sage Mode doesn't because Snake Sage Mode is the only Sage Mode that doesn't run out with lack of focus (thanks to Juugo's DNA). We've never read otherwise anywhere, and it's been proven already that it's absorbtion of natural energy is automatic. This is why Juugo goes crazy. He has an overabundance of the energy.
    Last edited by ninjabot; January 21, 2013 at 05:26 PM.

  9. #7
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    290
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I get what you're saying, and agree for the most part... but think about it: even if Sasuke had access to SM, he'd still have less than half of the chakra reserve Naruto does. He'd still have less chakra than Madara, Naruto, Obito, Bee, AND the Juubi. He'd still be the character with less chakra than everyone else, but more impressive usage of that chakra.

    Even better: if he had Sage Mode, he'd never need to aquire the Rinnegan, because SM powered EMS jutsu would be unstoppable. And it would be more unique than him gaining a Rinnegan because he would also potentially gain Mokuton. He'd be a carbon copy of Madara and Obito. Not if he had SM. If he had SM he would just be Sasuke, with stronger attacks.



    See? This would be the only way for Sasuke to remain solely Uchiha, instead of another Uchiha/Senju hybrid like the only other two Uchiha left alive. Hell, it could be Senjutsu that allowed Rikudou Sennin to use the full power of his eyes for all we know. We've yet to see Madara or Obito or Nagato use Banbutsu Souzou.

    ---------- Post added at 10:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

    EDIT: Snake Sage Mode doesn't rely on a different source from Toad Sage Mode. It's still drawing Natural Energy from the environment. The only difference is that Kabuto does so automatically, thus, he never runs out of energy because his body is absorbing it as he needs it.

    It's also inaccurate to say that Snake Sage Mode has a finite amount of power while Toad Sage Mode doesn't because Snake Sage Mode is the only Sage Mode that doesn't run out with lack of focus (thanks to Juugo's DNA). We've never read otherwise anywhere, and it's been proven already that it's absorbtion of natural energy is automatic. This is why Juugo goes crazy. He has an overabundance of the energy.
    I could leave most of the speculation since they are speculations. Again, I think when we are discussing, the discussion is also to contribute. Unlike the toad SM, Kabuto said clearly that the place where the snake SM is from is the source of Juugo's clan power. This is canon, and if you insist, I will bring fact to you. Kabuto implement's Juugo's ability and used the snake cornea to gather the enrgy from Ryochidu (or whatever spelling). Another evidence that the two SM do not draw their energy from the same place is the fact that when you petrify in both case, the result is different. Moreover, while you need special animal transformation to be able to draw the snake SM energy, in the toad case, the more human you are the perfect is the SM.

    My second point might again hurt your feelings, but I don't mean too. In the case you have not noticed, it seems that the same antagonism between the Sage and the Juubi exist between the toads and the snakes. If we expands, it seems that the same antagonist that exist between the elder son and the younger son exist between the toad and the snakes. Thus, you might have noticed that if one of the SM is close to whatever power Rikudo used, it is the Toads SM. If the snake were good guys, they would never have given their power in people like Orochimaru or Kabuto. The facts is the toads are the good guys, and the snakes are the bad guys. If we consider valuable the concept of prophecy in the series, I will say that the god that gives prophecy to the toads is the one who brought Rikudo sennin while the one who is in contact with the snakes is the one who brought the Juubi. This are just parallelism, and I believe the manga give hint to that. While we are discussing, notice that Orochimaru is a bad guys, someone who defy the normal course of life and have committed horrible crime to attain his goal. In my opinion, if Sasuke walk in is step, he will face the ultimate consequence - that is corruption.

  10. #8
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Zaphkiel
    Country
    Netherlands
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    10,940
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    My second point might again hurt your feelings, but I don't mean too. In the case you have not noticed, it seems that the same antagonism between the Sage and the Juubi exist between the toads and the snakes. If we expands, it seems that the same antagonist that exist between the elder son and the younger son exist between the toad and the snakes. Thus, you might have noticed that if one of the SM is close to whatever power Rikudo used, it is the Toads SM. If the snake were good guys, they would never have given their power in people like Orochimaru or Kabuto. The facts is the toads are the good guys, and the snakes are the bad guys. If we consider valuable the concept of prophecy in the series, I will say that the god that gives prophecy to the toads is the one who brought Rikudo sennin while the one who is in contact with the snakes is the one who brought the Juubi. This are just parallelism, and I believe the manga give hint to that. While we are discussing, notice that Orochimaru is a bad guys, someone who defy the normal course of life and have committed horrible crime to attain his goal. In my opinion, if Sasuke walk in is step, he will face the ultimate consequence - that is corruption.
    The sage toad and the sage snake aren't symbols of good and bad, not at least what is perceived as good and bad as human beings; they are merely the polar sides of wisdom hidden in the world for humans.
    Kabuto never demanded a power for the destruction of world. His goal, as it was Orochimaru's goal also, was to learn the truth behind the ninjutsu concept, reaching a level of understanding of the world only Rikudou Sennin possessed. The sage snake just lent him that power for his effort to achieve it, for his effort to become one with nature as Naruto did in Mt. Myoboku.
    There is no such thing as the snakes being good or bad. Granted, a snake's nature should be taken into consideration. Point is, it's a similar difference that of residing within the Bijuu. Some of them show an obedient nature, whilst others are closer to fulfill the supposed role of carrying a great hatred. I believe it's just the same with the Sage.

  11. #9
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    290
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    The sage toad and the sage snake aren't symbols of good and bad, not at least what is perceived as good and bad as human beings; they are merely the polar sides of wisdom hidden in the world for humans.
    Kabuto never demanded a power for the destruction of world. His goal, as it was Orochimaru's goal also, was to learn the truth behind the ninjutsu concept, reaching a level of understanding of the world only Rikudou Sennin possessed. The sage snake just lent him that power for his effort to achieve it, for his effort to become one with nature as Naruto did in Mt. Myoboku.
    There is no such thing as the snakes being good or bad. Granted, a snake's nature should be taken into consideration. Point is, it's a similar difference that of residing within the Bijuu. Some of them show an obedient nature, whilst others are closer to fulfill the supposed role of carrying a great hatred. I believe it's just the same with the Sage.
    The snakes are bad guys, and you know that. A first reason why they bad is that they give their power to people without even checking the attitude of these people. Guys like Orochimaru and Kabuto keep killing innocent for power. In my opinion, the sage snake is a bad copy of the the toad sage. Unless you want to close your eyes, Minato, Jiraya and now Naruto who trained under the toads are reasonable people who fight to protect their loved one. On the contrary, Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Maybe Sasuke are all bent on revenge and ready to kill everyone on site. You just have to open your eyes on the number of people Orochimaru have killed as sacrifice or laboratory rats. Also look at this:

    Spoiler show


    On this page, Manda request 100 sacrifice for being summoned by Orochimaru. I guess every time Orochimaru has to summon him, 100 humans have to be kill. Sasuke had to force him with Genjutsu. This is not true power actually. Add to this the fact that snake usually represent evil.

  12. #10
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,170
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww
    I could leave most of the speculation since they are speculations. Again, I think when we are discussing, the discussion is also to contribute. Unlike the toad SM, Kabuto said clearly that the place where the snake SM is from is the source of Juugo's clan power. This is canon, and if you insist, I will bring fact to you. Kabuto implement's Juugo's ability and used the snake cornea to gather the enrgy from Ryochidu (or whatever spelling). Another evidence that the two SM do not draw their energy from the same place is the fact that when you petrify in both case, the result is different. Moreover, while you need special animal transformation to be able to draw the snake SM energy, in the toad case, the more human you are the perfect is the SM.
    You're mistaken. Again.

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/579/16

    Kabuto never states that Snake Sage Mode gets natural energy from Ryuuichidou. He states that the power that Jyuugo's clan is born with comes from Ryuuichidou. It's like saying Naruto's Sage Mode gains power from Myouboukuzan. It doesn't. That's where he got the power ability from. But it's not where his power comes from.

    Sage Mode, no matter which kind of Sage Mode, gains it's power from the mixture of natural energy around the ninja (no matter where they are), and a mixture of their own chakra. Juugo's clan naturally absorbs this natural energy no matter what. Naruto and Jiraiya however, have to sit still and absorb the natural energy of their own accord. This is why Kabuto's Sage Mode is superior: because it can be activated without sitting still, and never runs out.

    I repeat: the ability to absorb natural energy came from Ryuuichidou. Not the natural energy that they absorb.

    Quote Quote:
    The snakes are bad guys, and you know that. A first reason why they bad is that they give their power to people without even checking the attitude of these people. Guys like Orochimaru and Kabuto keep killing innocent for power. In my opinion, the sage snake is a bad copy of the the toad sage. Unless you want to close your eyes, Minato, Jiraya and now Naruto who trained under the toads are reasonable people who fight to protect their loved one. On the contrary, Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Maybe Sasuke are all bent on revenge and ready to kill everyone on site. You just have to open your eyes on the number of people Orochimaru have killed as sacrifice or laboratory rats. Also look at this:
    Snakes aren't inherently evil. We've literally only seen 1 snake that can talk, and he was the only evil one. The Uchiha clan made usage of nin-cats aswell. Should we assume that the cats are evil aswell? You really think these little guys can be considered evil?

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/354/7
    Last edited by ninjabot; January 21, 2013 at 10:53 PM.

  13. #11
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    290
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You're mistaken. Again.

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/579/16

    Kabuto never states that Snake Sage Mode gets natural energy from Ryuuichidou. He states that the power that Jyuugo's clan is born with comes from Ryuuichidou. It's like saying Naruto's Sage Mode gains power from Myouboukuzan. It doesn't. That's where he got the power ability from. But it's not where his power comes from.

    Sage Mode, no matter which kind of Sage Mode, gains it's power from the mixture of natural energy around the ninja (no matter where they are), and a mixture of their own chakra. Juugo's clan naturally absorbs this natural energy no matter what. Naruto and Jiraiya however, have to sit still and absorb the natural energy of their own accord. This is why Kabuto's Sage Mode is superior: because it can be activated without sitting still, and never runs out.

    I repeat: the ability to absorb natural energy came from Ryuuichidou. Not the natural energy that they absorb.
    How does the ability to absorb the natural energy comes from Ryuuchido. This is your own interpretation of the fact. Juugo's clan is not from Ryuuchidou. In fact, Juugo does not even know where Ryuuchidou is, yet his power source is Ryuuchidou. You could convince me since we don't have explanation on the SM process, but the sole fact that Juugo's power comes from Ryuuchidou means that the natural energy he is using come from there. Unlike toads SM, in order to use Snake SM, you need to implement Juugo's DNA, otherwise they will be no drawing energy.

    Because of this, I discussed once about requiring compatibility with toads before becoming toad sage. If you place our antagonism aside, you will notice that Juugo's power work as a antenna along with a filter to receive a specific chakra. If this snake SM was the raw natural energy that Naruto is using, why would Kabuto implement Juugo's DNA. Again, you should be carefull with the phrase - Ryuuchidou is the source of Juugo's clan power. This mean clearly the energy they are using come from there unless you are saying their DNA comes from there (in which case Kabuto would not need Juugo's DNA).

    Now, can you tell me how snake SM is superior to toads SM? In my opinion, Naruto's SM is just imperfect. Besides, there is no benchmarkl to compare the two unless you match two people who have mastered both of them in a fight. On a side note, Kabuto got Izanami's by Itachi without even noticing it. The difference seen so far is dependent on the user, not the power itself.



    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Snakes aren't inherently evil. We've literally only seen 1 snake that can talk, and he was the only evil one. The Uchiha clan made usage of nin-cats aswell. Should we assume that the cats are evil aswell? You really think these little guys can be considered evil?

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/354/7
    Believe what you wants. I gave you a link showing Manda, the Gamabunta of the snakes asking for 100 sacrifices. You should have tell me how this is good. You should tell me how Orochimaru willing to destroy a village without a reason makes his master better. Besides, in order to show you that these snakes are cheap sage, remember when Kabuto said he modified manda. This suggest that Manda is not even a naturally born snake, but the result of genetic manipulation. This even make questionable the whole snaky business. Who are the masters - snakes or Orochimaru/Kabuto?

    Again: The pattern of the manga is obvious and no different from other series. On one side, you have the bad guys, and on the other the good guys. The only way for Sasuke to escape greater corruption is to go back to Naruto and become a Konoha Nin. As Itachi said, there are power that are not his, and if he go along with Orochimaru, he will become another Kabuto.
    Last edited by so6pww; January 21, 2013 at 11:51 PM.

  14. #12
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Poke-france.
    Country
    United States
    Age
    27
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    8,824
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    The snakes are bad guys, and you know that. A first reason why they bad is that they give their power to people without even checking the attitude of these people. Guys like Orochimaru and Kabuto keep killing innocent for power. In my opinion, the sage snake is a bad copy of the the toad sage. Unless you want to close your eyes, Minato, Jiraya and now Naruto who trained under the toads are reasonable people who fight to protect their loved one. On the contrary, Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Maybe Sasuke are all bent on revenge and ready to kill everyone on site. You just have to open your eyes on the number of people Orochimaru have killed as sacrifice or laboratory rats. Also look at this:

    Spoiler show


    On this page, Manda request 100 sacrifice for being summoned by Orochimaru. I guess every time Orochimaru has to summon him, 100 humans have to be kill. Sasuke had to force him with Genjutsu. This is not true power actually. Add to this the fact that snake usually represent evil.
    Aside what has already been mentioned concerning snakes and the fact that the majority of them are mindless, a major flaw in your argument is the fact that Orochimaru wouldn't have been evil when he made the contract with the snakes. Orochimaru wasn't always evil, he was relatively good up until the Third War. And Anko is a good person, and she still uses snakes. So your argument about snakes being evil because evil people uses them fails. And really, if we're gonna bring up humans being killed, how about the mass of people that the toads allowed to turn into statues? That seems far more messed up then wanting to be provided a meal.

    Also, toads too can represent evil, like in witchcraft. There are several religions that revered snakes, like Hindu, ancient Greece, and Mesoamerica. They're seen as symbols of wisdom and knowledge. They're also seen as a symbol of healing, which continues even to this day.

  15. #13
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,170
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww
    How does the ability to absorb the natural energy comes from Ryuuchido. This is your own interpretation of the fact. Juugo's clan is not from Ryuuchidou. In fact, Juugo does not even know where Ryuuchidou is, yet his power source is Ryuuchidou. You could convince me since we don't have explanation on the SM process, but the sole fact that Juugo's power comes from Ryuuchidou means that the natural energy he is using come from there. Unlike toads SM, in order to use Snake SM, you need to implement Juugo's DNA, otherwise they will be no drawing energy.
    That's nonsense. Orochimaru doesn't use the Curse Seal on his own body and he nearly became a Sage. The only reason he couldn't is because of all the bodies he kept stealing, none of them were strong enough to become Sages. You forget that not every human can become a Sage. They need to have a naturally large chakra. Jiraiya had a large chakra. Naruto has an enormous chakra.

    Likewise, drawing in energy isn't the only thing it takes to enter Sage Mode. One has to focus the natural energy with their own chakra. This is what Kabuto learned from the great Snake Sage.

    Quote Quote:
    Because of this, I discussed once about requiring compatibility with toads before becoming toad sage. If you place our antagonism aside, you will notice that Juugo's power work as a antenna along with a filter to receive a specific chakra. If this snake SM was the raw natural energy that Naruto is using, why would Kabuto implement Juugo's DNA. Again, you should be carefull with the phrase - Ryuuchidou is the source of Juugo's clan power. This mean clearly the energy they are using come from there unless you are saying their DNA comes from there (in which case Kabuto would not need Juugo's DNA).
    Kabuto implements Juugo's DNA because it's far easier to absorb natural energy when your body does it automatically. Naruto and Jiraiya both find themselves in situations where they can't absorb natural energy unless they have toads or other ninja watching their backs. Kabuto has no such limitation thanks to Juugo's DNA.

    Quote Quote:
    Now, can you tell me how snake SM is superior to toads SM? In my opinion, Naruto's SM is just imperfect. Besides, there is no benchmarkl to compare the two unless you match two people who have mastered both of them in a fight. On a side note, Kabuto got Izanami's by Itachi without even noticing it. The difference seen so far is dependent on the user, not the power itself.
    Oh yes there is a way to compare.

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Mode

    Naruto is considered a perfect Toad Sage because of the red eyeshadow. Kabuto is considered a perfect Snake Sage because of the dragon transformation. Inorder to see which is superior, you look at what they both inherently gain with their transformations aswell as both their inherent weaknesses.
    Naruto has a time limit with his Sage Mode and runs out after two FRS's, which means he has to sit still and absorb more energy. Kabuto has Juugo's ability continuously absorbing natural energy for him, meaning he can move at will and never run out of natural energy.
    Jiraiya could move at will and still gather energy, but ONLY when Fukusaku and Shima was fused to him. And Naruto currently can't fuse with either of them thanks to Kurama.
    I will admit however that the only reason Kabuto's SM is superior is because of experimentation/Juugo's DNA. Doesn't change the fact that it's better though.


    Quote Quote:
    Believe what you wants. I gave you a link showing Manda, the Gamabunta of the snakes asking for 100 sacrifices. You should have tell me how this is good. You should tell me how Orochimaru willing to destroy a village without a reason makes his master better. Besides, in order to show you that these snakes are cheap sage, remember when Kabuto said he modified manda. This suggest that Manda is not even a naturally born snake, but the result of genetic manipulation. This even make questionable the whole snaky business. Who are the masters - snakes or Orochimaru/Kabuto?
    How the hell does Manda being evil prove that EVERY snake is evil? I never said snakes were good, I simply said that not all were inherently evil. That means that the only ones that can be considered evil are the ones that have been shown to be evil. Which is ONE snake: Manda. You haven't the slightest chance of proving otherwise either.

    As for Manda's modification, he was DEAD. Originally he was a normal snake. The boss summon of the snake pact, but still just a snake. Then Sasuke got him killed, but Kabuto revived him and did experiments on him to alter him (gave him limbs, increased his sensing abilities,etc).

  16. #14
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Suzaku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    692
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    I wouldn't want Sasuke to get a Sage Mode for a few reasons.

    First, if he did, it would need to be a snake mode. The implications of Kabuto's comments tie back into the frog/snake/slug rivalry; those should be the three animal clans that have access to Sage Mode if there's a third Sage Mode at all. However, Sasuke's now symbolized by the hawk.


    Second, Sage Mode requires either intense meditation or a way to gather natural energy without moving. Naruto, Jiraiya, and Kabuto all have tricks to pull this off. Naruto uses Kage Bunshin no Jutsu to produce a copy of himself that can gather natural energy while out of harm's way. Jiraiya fused with the elderly frog couple so that they could gather natural energy and feed it into his body while he moved around. Kabuto researched Juugo's kekkei genkai and reproduced it in his own body to passively gather natural energy at all times.


    Third, it runs counter to the Senju vs Uchiha parallels that have been built up between Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto's use of Sage Mode is evocative of the Senju Clan, which inherited the body and physical prowess of the Sage of Six Paths. He draws in power from outside sources and makes it his own, increasing his strength and speed to supernatural levels.

    Sasuke's powers are the powers of the Uchiha Clan, which inherited the eyes and mental/spiritual prowess of the Sage of Six Paths. Sasuke's abilities are more about the mind and the imagination. He creates illusions, spawns black flames from his eyes, conjures an ethereal warrior, and even has the potential to warp and alter reality. His eyes give also give him supernatural reflexes and the ability to predict an opponent's movements.

    That dichotomy is there for a reason. Giving Sasuke the same exact power up that Naruto already has would sort of defeat the purpose, in my opinion. Naruto's got Sage Mode and Sasuke has the Sharingan. Naruto has Kurama and Sasuke has Susano'o. I don't think they need new modes on top of what they've already got. At most, I think Sasuke's Susano'o will get a new form when he stabilizes its chakra, just like with Madara's.

  17. #15
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Zaphkiel
    Country
    Netherlands
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    10,940
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    The snakes are bad guys, and you know that. A first reason why they bad is that they give their power to people without even checking the attitude of these people. Guys like Orochimaru and Kabuto keep killing innocent for power. In my opinion, the sage snake is a bad copy of the the toad sage. Unless you want to close your eyes, Minato, Jiraya and now Naruto who trained under the toads are reasonable people who fight to protect their loved one. On the contrary, Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Maybe Sasuke are all bent on revenge and ready to kill everyone on site. You just have to open your eyes on the number of people Orochimaru have killed as sacrifice or laboratory rats. Also look at this:

    Spoiler show


    On this page, Manda request 100 sacrifice for being summoned by Orochimaru. I guess every time Orochimaru has to summon him, 100 humans have to be kill. Sasuke had to force him with Genjutsu. This is not true power actually. Add to this the fact that snake usually represent evil.
    As I said, it's got to do with the nature of a snake. It's not as obedient as a slug. But that has got nothing to do with the good and the bad. Sasuke forced him to sacrifice himself actually, not lend him power. In a way, what does Manda have got anything to do with Senjutsu? He's just a powerful snake summon.
    I'm not saying Orochimaru was an angel on the world. But the statement that good people summon toads and the bad guys have affinity towards snakes is quite incomplete. Hiruzen stated that white snake was the symbol of rebirth and long life, so, snakes do not only represent evil.

New Reply
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts