Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

[so6pww]

As I said, it's got to do with the nature of a snake. It's not as obedient as a slug. But that has got nothing to do with the good and the bad. Sasuke forced him to sacrifice himself actually, not lend him power. In a way, what does Manda have got anything to do with Senjutsu? He's just a powerful snake summon.
I'm not saying Orochimaru was an angel on the world. But the statement that good people summon toads and the bad guys have affinity towards snakes is quite incomplete. Hiruzen stated that white snake was the symbol of rebirth and long life, so, snakes do not only represent evil.

With no offense, Manda represent what Gamabunta is for the snake in my opinion. Unless you want to ignore who Tsunade, Jiraya, and Orochimaru are, and what Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura are foreshadowed to represent, I will leave you with that. Each one of them made a choice of life, and if Oro and his boss where goodies, it wouldn't matter for Jiraya and Naruto to run after them. You can believe what you want, but facts show that these guys are not angels. Someone like Orochimaru was in Akatsuki, created the sound village and have lab everywhere he has been to experiment on human being. His victims are everywhere, and Suigetsu warning to Sasuke was an evidence among many. We talk about snake sage mode, and you ask me what the snakes have to do with sage mode? Of course, everything.

Until now, it turns out the quest for white snake has always been in blood for the innocent children. Hiruzen was pathetically pacific, and despite seeing the evilness in Orochimaru thought he would change. Orochimaru in my opinion is not a human - I call him a snaky entity.

Do you remember how Kishi used Kabuto's SM? The most evil sage mode!

[Hakuteiken]

With no offense, Manda represent what Gamabunta is for the snake in my opinion. Unless you want to ignore who Tsunade, Jiraya, and Orochimaru are, and what Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura are foreshadowed to represent, I will leave you with that. Each one of them made a choice of life, and if Oro and his boss where goodies, it wouldn't matter for Jiraya and Naruto to run after them. You can believe what you want, but facts show that these guys are not angels. Someone like Orochimaru was in Akatsuki, created the sound village and have lab everywhere he has been to experiment on human being. His victims are everywhere, and Suigetsu warning to Sasuke was an evidence among many. We talk about snake sage mode, and you ask me what the snakes have to do with sage mode? Of course, everything.

Until now, it turns out the quest for white snake has always been in blood for the innocent children. Hiruzen was pathetically pacific, and despite seeing the evilness in Orochimaru thought he would change. Orochimaru in my opinion is not a human - I call him a snaky entity.

Do you remember how Kishi used Kabuto's SM? The most evil sage mode!

Well, I'm not offended. This is a discussion, so, no worries.
What you stated as opinion could well be a fact. Gamabunta is like the Toad Boss and Manda is the Snake Boss in that sense. I'm not thinking any different there. Those who were after the snake sage mode weren't angels. What I don't agree with is simple. It's not that snake sage mode was deemed as evil because it was related with the snakes, but it's because that mode was used by Kabuto who had evil intentions (granted, evil from a certain perspective only).

Orochimaru was only a person with twisted persona until he began his experiments. He wasn't evil, and yet, he used the snakes beginning with his youth. Same goes for Anko, who had barely any evil qualities. Even Sasuke, whilst being trained by Orochimaru, was no evil. He was after his older brother to avenge his clansmen. What exactly can be considered evil about that? He became an antagonist and was deemed as evil only after learning the truth about the Uchiha from Tobi.
Of course, you can see the nature of snake nesting in all those people's character here and there, but it's not to go as far to call it evil, in my opinion.

[Rikudou King]

With no offense, Manda represent what Gamabunta is for the snake in my opinion. Unless you want to ignore who Tsunade, Jiraya, and Orochimaru are, and what Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura are foreshadowed to represent, I will leave you with that. Each one of them made a choice of life, and if Oro and his boss where goodies, it wouldn't matter for Jiraya and Naruto to run after them. You can believe what you want, but facts show that these guys are not angels. Someone like Orochimaru was in Akatsuki, created the sound village and have lab everywhere he has been to experiment on human being. His victims are everywhere, and Suigetsu warning to Sasuke was an evidence among many. We talk about snake sage mode, and you ask me what the snakes have to do with sage mode? Of course, everything.

Until now, it turns out the quest for white snake has always been in blood for the innocent children. Hiruzen was pathetically pacific, and despite seeing the evilness in Orochimaru thought he would change. Orochimaru in my opinion is not a human - I call him a snaky entity.

Do you remember how Kishi used Kabuto's SM? The most evil sage mode!

Manda and Gamabunta are simply rivals, therefore opposite, just like all the other rivalries in the series. None of the characters are angels. They're not meant to be, because they're ninjas. Minato and Kakashi have assassinated dozens of people, and they're still seen as good. And being in Akatsuki doesn't mean much. Nagato and Itachi were both in Akatsuki and committed massacres, yet the series considers them good guys. Most of Akatsuki is considered questionable morally, aside from Hidan and Zetsu.

And the White Snake has nothing to do with "innocent children's" blood. You're thinking of his Mokuton experiments.

[ninjabot]

I wouldn't want Sasuke to get a Sage Mode for a few reasons.

I'm sure I can guess what one of the reasons are but... for the sake of discussion let's just see, lol.

First, if he did, it would need to be a snake mode. The implications of Kabuto's comments tie back into the frog/snake/slug rivalry; those should be the three animal clans that have access to Sage Mode if there's a third Sage Mode at all. However, Sasuke's now symbolized by the hawk.

Well, here's the thing here: there's nothing that states the only two potential senjutsu instructing animal pacts are snakes and toads. Suigetsu tells us all animals can sense natural energy. I'll find the scan soon. As for hawks having access to Senjutsu, why not? They don't have arms for Hawk-Fu, but then snakes don't have arms or legs for Snake-Fu either and they still can teach Senjutsu. And while the Humid Bone Forrest may be the domain of Slug Sages, we've no confirmation yet.

Second, Sage Mode requires either intense meditation or a way to gather natural energy without moving. Naruto, Jiraiya, and Kabuto all have tricks to pull this off. Naruto uses Kage Bunshin no Jutsu to produce a copy of himself that can gather natural energy while out of harm's way. Jiraiya fused with the elderly frog couple so that they could gather natural energy and feed it into his body while he moved around. Kabuto researched Juugo's kekkei genkai and reproduced it in his own body to passively gather natural energy at all times.

And Sasuke has an entire torso's worth of Juugo's flesh inside of his body. I'd say that passes for enough of his DNA to produce the same feat IMO. As for focus, he's a genius-type ninja. I've no doubt he can get the knack with the aid of Juugo's DNA once they figure out how to activate it's ability.

Third, it runs counter to the Senju vs Uchiha parallels that have been built up between Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto's use of Sage Mode is evocative of the Senju Clan, which inherited the body and physical prowess of the Sage of Six Paths. He draws in power from outside sources and makes it his own, increasing his strength and speed to supernatural levels.

I'd say that Madara and Obito's current abilities run counter to the Senju vs. Uchiha parallels aswell. Madara now has everything that makes Hashirama a threat. Ditto for Obito. Ontop of that they have Rinnegan and MS jutsu. I do NOT want Sasuke to be a carbon copy of them. With Senjutsu Sasuke could rely entirely on his MS/EMS abilities without branching out into Senju territory. Then it will truly be Senju vs. Uchiha when he and Naruto fight.

I also disagree with the idea that Sage Mode is any way indicative of Senju power, since it relies on power that's not genetically pre-installed in his body. It's power from everywhere. Sage Mode, to me, always seemed like it was intended for genius type ninja because of the level of patience and understanding it requires. I always thought it made no sense that a ninja of Naruto's mentality could use it, let alone perfect it.

Sasuke's powers are the powers of the Uchiha Clan, which inherited the eyes and mental/spiritual prowess of the Sage of Six Paths. Sasuke's abilities are more about the mind and the imagination. He creates illusions, spawns black flames from his eyes, conjures an ethereal warrior, and even has the potential to warp and alter reality. His eyes give also give him supernatural reflexes and the ability to predict an opponent's movements.

Agreed. But the pinnacle of that spiritual power manifests in the Rinnegan, meaning in obtaining said Rinnegan he would also gain Senju strength and chakra. Gaining the Rinnegan is FAR more likely to destroy the "eyes vs. body" motif Kishi has going than Sage Mode would. Hell, look at Madara. His Perfect Susanoo isn't even using the Rinnegan's power to strengthen it, and it's capable of Bijuu level destructive feats. The sheer amount of stamina it would take for something like this is borderline Senju level already.

That dichotomy is there for a reason. Giving Sasuke the same exact power up that Naruto already has would sort of defeat the purpose, in my opinion. Naruto's got Sage Mode and Sasuke has the Sharingan. Naruto has Kurama and Sasuke has Susano'o. I don't think they need new modes on top of what they've already got. At most, I think Sasuke's Susano'o will get a new form when he stabilizes its chakra, just like with Madara's.

I expect him to perfect his Susanoo eventually aswell. Still this doesn't really give him an answer for his lacking stamina. Either he gains the Rinnegan and his stamina is increased thanks to Hashirama's DNA... or he does something else. Sage Mode seems the most possible next to Rinnegan. I don't particularly like either idea. But I like the thought of Sasuke gaining the Rinnegan far less than the thought of him being a Sage.

[so6pww]

I'm sure I can guess what one of the reasons are but... for the sake of discussion let's just see, lol.



Well, here's the thing here: there's nothing that states the only two potential senjutsu instructing animal pacts are snakes and toads. Suigetsu tells us all animals can sense natural energy. I'll find the scan soon. As for hawks having access to Senjutsu, why not? They don't have arms for Hawk-Fu, but then snakes don't have arms or legs for Snake-Fu either and they still can teach Senjutsu. And while the Humid Bone Forrest may be the domain of Slug Sages, we've no confirmation yet.

In my opinion, any animal that can speak in the manga can have some sort of wisdom or its own level of Sage. However, I think Kishi does not chose animal randomly for sage mode. Snakes and Toads are being from myths, and they were showcase early in the manga. You can also see that the slug are medical being, and Katsuya suggested that she will recollate Tsunade's body. This requires a certain level of techniques that requires a load of chakra. All Tsunade and slug partneship is no less that Sage techs - except it is medical one.

IAnd Sasuke has an entire torso's worth of Juugo's flesh inside of his body. I'd say that passes for enough of his DNA to produce the same feat IMO. As for focus, he's a genius-type ninja. I've no doubt he can get the knack with the aid of Juugo's DNA once they figure out how to activate it's ability.

Possible, but having part of something is not the same as fusing it with your entire body. Unless we wants counter intuitive effects just for power up, Kishi has to respect past chapters. Danzou failed and his used of Hashimara's power is imcomplete because he couldn't control. Obito can pump power from one side of his body but cannot use advance Hashimara Jutsu. Madara on the other side has Hashi fused with his entire edo body and he has all the power. In order for Sasuke to master Juugo's power which I don't have any doubt about it, they will have to implement Kabuto's solution.

II'd say that Madara and Obito's current abilities run counter to the Senju vs. Uchiha parallels aswell. Madara now has everything that makes Hashirama a threat. Ditto for Obito. Ontop of that they have Rinnegan and MS jutsu. I do NOT want Sasuke to be a carbon copy of them. With Senjutsu Sasuke could rely entirely on his MS/EMS abilities without branching out into Senju territory. Then it will truly be Senju vs. Uchiha when he and Naruto fight.

I agree. Madara cannot talk about Uchiha vs Senju anymore, and that is why he praises Hashimara despite mocking Tsunade. In fact, he mocked her because she useless compare to her gradfather.

II also disagree with the idea that Sage Mode is any way indicative of Senju power, since it relies on power that's not genetically pre-installed in his body. It's power from everywhere. Sage Mode, to me, always seemed like it was intended for genius type ninja because of the level of patience and understanding it requires. I always thought it made no sense that a ninja of Naruto's mentality could use it, let alone perfect it.

Here, I disagree a bit with you. While anyone can try sage mode, it is clear that unless you are a very special Senju/Uzumaki, you cannot be a true sage. As you can see, you need to balance your energy with that of the whole nature. Unless you have a shitload of energy, you will be in trouble. This is why we claim that the toad SM is a Jutsu that is intended for the Senju. Honestly, I don't see the genius in SM that Naruto cannot master after balancing wind with his chakra to form a rasenchuriken. Besides, I don't see how Sharingan is going to help with SM. This has nothing with external shape manipulation or chakra visualization. It happen within the body.

Now, as I told someone else, the snake SM will be perfect for Uchiha because they don't worry about pumping the energy and storing it. Since they have an antenna that is adjusting the level and enery and drawing on-demand, the user can draw as much as he need any time as we saw with Juugo. In fact, Kishi never explained how Snake SM works in detail.

I Agreed. But the pinnacle of that spiritual power manifests in the Rinnegan, meaning in obtaining said Rinnegan he would also gain Senju strength and chakra. Gaining the Rinnegan is FAR more likely to destroy the "eyes vs. body" motif Kishi has going than Sage Mode would. Hell, look at Madara. His Perfect Susanoo isn't even using the Rinnegan's power to strengthen it, and it's capable of Bijuu level destructive feats. The sheer amount of stamina it would take for something like this is borderline Senju level already.

Again, not only the scope of Uchiha/Senju has never been respected with Sasuke, but you made a false analysis with Rinnegan.

From the beginning, Sasuke has not been Uchiha. Yes, he got Sharingan and used it as Uchiha, but in major battle, Sasuke were saved most of the time by power up that are external to Uchiha. From curse seal, Kakashi's chidori (body based jutsu), to Orochimaru's full power, and maybe to summoning. You can see that Sasuke is more than an Uchiha with Sharingan.

Next, I continue to claim that anyone who think Rinnegan is an eye technique is really misundertanding the manga. Not only we are shown that you cannot have it without the Senju body, but in its operation, it heavily rely on the body. Madara choosing Nagato to revive him was the greatest evidence. While Uchiha power is needed to activate Rinnegan (as for now), I believe strongly that Rinnegan is a power that fit more the Senju than the Uchiha. If you take a pair of spare Rinnegan, I cna guaranty that an unaltered Uchiha will be unable to use it perfectly while a Senju or Uzumaki will use it perfectly, better than the Uchiha.

Also noticed that Obito's usage of it is poor despite having half his body Senju, and notice that Rinnegan (the eyes themselves) are keys to knwoledge, while the body allow for using that knowledge.

II expect him to perfect his Susanoo eventually aswell. Still this doesn't really give him an answer for his lacking stamina. Either he gains the Rinnegan and his stamina is increased thanks to Hashirama's DNA... or he does something else. Sage Mode seems the most possible next to Rinnegan. I don't particularly like either idea. But I like the thought of Sasuke gaining the Rinnegan far less than the thought of him being a Sage.

Don't worry? In order to be a sage, you need a body that is fit for it, you need juugo's ability for snakes. In order to use Rinnegan, you need Hashimara's cell. At the end of this manga, if all the prediction I have seen comes true on Sasuke's sides, He will have:

- Sharingan
- Sage Mode
- Rinnegan
- Orochimaru power
- etc.

At this point, it is hilarious to talk about Senju vs Uchiha.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I expect him to perfect his Susanoo eventually aswell. Still this doesn't really give him an answer for his lacking stamina. Either he gains the Rinnegan and his stamina is increased thanks to Hashirama's DNA... or he does something else. Sage Mode seems the most possible next to Rinnegan. I don't particularly like either idea. But I like the thought of Sasuke gaining the Rinnegan far less than the thought of him being a Sage.

Syx made, in a prediction thread, an excellent post showing how Kakashi did a million draining jutsus before collapsing for lack of chakra in this war, and you'll agree Sasuke should have a bigger reserve than Kakashi.
Trust me, Sasuke's stamina will not be a problem

On topic, I prefer Sage Mode over Rin'negan every day, doesn't change the fact though that it would still be the same as Rin'negan:
overused, already seen, nothing new.
Just like we saw the Rin'negan with Madara, Obito and Nagato we saw Sage Mode with Naruto, Jiraiya and Kabuto. So I would not be totally convinced on it as well, even though Sasuke in Sage Mode would finally close the gap with Itachi and truly surpass him.

It doesn't change the fact though that Oro surely wanted, after taking Sasuke's body, to inject Hashirama's cells in it and obtain Sage Mode and Rin'negan himself, so the possibility isn't totally unreal

[marshall313]

So, orochimaru would let sasuke gain the ultimate senjutsu?

Not unless orochimaru is an idiot. Giving the ultimate senjutsu to sasuke whereas he was after to sasuke's body is some sort of stupidity.

Or not unless orochimaru cared for sasuke. He wants sasuke to gain power because of his parental love.

[Hakuteiken]

So, orochimaru would let sasuke gain the ultimate senjutsu?

Not unless orochimaru is an idiot. Giving the ultimate senjutsu to sasuke whereas he was after to sasuke's body is some sort of stupidity.

Or not unless orochimaru cared for sasuke. He wants sasuke to gain power because of his parental love.

Having known of Itachi's true power to a certain degree (at least a lot more than Sasuke knew), he could have thought he could always go through another deal to give Sasuke the senjutsu in exchange for taking over his body.
Although Sasuke boasted about not needing Orochimaru's tutelage in the end, he failed against Itachi on his own, so, if Orochimaru really thought something of that sort, it wouldn't make him an idiot at all.

Ah, that. It's possibly love.
Not parental, though

[marshall313]

Manda and Gamabunta are simply rivals, therefore opposite, just like all the other rivalries in the series. None of the characters are angels. They're not meant to be, because they're ninjas. Minato and Kakashi have assassinated dozens of people, and they're still seen as good. And being in Akatsuki doesn't mean much. Nagato and Itachi were both in Akatsuki and committed massacres, yet the series considers them good guys. Most of Akatsuki is considered questionable morally, aside from Hidan and Zetsu.

And the White Snake has nothing to do with "innocent children's" blood. You're thinking of his Mokuton experiments.

No. Manda and gamabunta aren't a rivals. They're mortal enemies, the frogs and snakes. There's no such thing as rivalry to both snakes and frogs. The frogs hate the snakes and vice versa.

And I agree with @so6pww, snakes is evil. For them, humans are just their foods. When oro summon manda, he wants to have at least a hundred humans as a sacrificed for calling him in a battle field. And it's not impossible for the white snake to asked kabuto to sacrifice a hundreds of humans in exchange for kabuto's training in sage mode. Yeah, that's what they are. Thats why kishi called the snake sage as the most evil sage mode.

---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 PM ----------

Having known of Itachi's true power to a certain degree (at least a lot more than Sasuke knew), he could have thought he could always go through another deal to give Sasuke the senjutsu in exchange for taking over his body.
Although Sasuke boasted about not needing Orochimaru's tutelage in the end, he failed against Itachi on his own, so, if Orochimaru really thought something of that sort, it wouldn't make him an idiot at all.

Ah, that. It's possibly love.
Not parental, though

Oro said that he's still wants to take sasuke's body. So giving sasuke his ultimate power is kinda odd. Because it'll become impossible for oro to take sasuke's body if he had the sage mode. A sharingan powered by senjutsu chakra is one hell of a doujutsu. The sharingan's genjutsu that was used by sasuke to oro would become 10 times more stronger.

So, if oro would really do that, then for me, he's an idiot.

No. It's parental love.

[ninjabot]

Orochimaru doesn't have to give Senjutsu to Sasuke. Infact, Sasuke has no snake pact so the great snake sage wouldn't teach him most likely. If Sasuke were to obtain it, it would be from a hawk sage.

Syx made, in a prediction thread, an excellent post showing how Kakashi did a million draining jutsus before collapsing for lack of chakra in this war, and you'll agree Sasuke should have a bigger reserve than Kakashi.
Trust me, Sasuke's stamina will not be a problem

I expect the same thing, but I'd prefer it be explained away via his coming powerup. Unless they say somewhere "Your chakra has grown Sasuke", I'd be okay with that too. It's just Kishimoto tends to prefer being vague.

[marshall313]

Hawk sage?

What the hell is that? Where was stated that sasuke's hawk is a sage? Wow. Just because you want sasuke to gain a powerups, you're assuming that sasuke's hawk is a sage? So, the humid forest(?) Is where the hawk sage lives?

[NinjaStar]

That's nonsense. Orochimaru doesn't use the Curse Seal on his own body and he nearly became a Sage. The only reason he couldn't is because of all the bodies he kept stealing, none of them were strong enough to become Sages. You forget that not every human can become a Sage. They need to have a naturally large chakra. Jiraiya had a large chakra. Naruto has an enormous chakra.

Likewise, drawing in energy isn't the only thing it takes to enter Sage Mode. One has to focus the natural energy with their own chakra. This is what Kabuto learned from the great Snake Sage.



Kabuto implements Juugo's DNA because it's far easier to absorb natural energy when your body does it automatically. Naruto and Jiraiya both find themselves in situations where they can't absorb natural energy unless they have toads or other ninja watching their backs. Kabuto has no such limitation thanks to Juugo's DNA.



Oh yes there is a way to compare.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Mode

Naruto is considered a perfect Toad Sage because of the red eyeshadow. Kabuto is considered a perfect Snake Sage because of the dragon transformation. Inorder to see which is superior, you look at what they both inherently gain with their transformations aswell as both their inherent weaknesses.
Naruto has a time limit with his Sage Mode and runs out after two FRS's, which means he has to sit still and absorb more energy. Kabuto has Juugo's ability continuously absorbing natural energy for him, meaning he can move at will and never run out of natural energy.
Jiraiya could move at will and still gather energy, but ONLY when Fukusaku and Shima was fused to him. And Naruto currently can't fuse with either of them thanks to Kurama.
I will admit however that the only reason Kabuto's SM is superior is because of experimentation/Juugo's DNA. Doesn't change the fact that it's better though.




How the hell does Manda being evil prove that EVERY snake is evil? I never said snakes were good, I simply said that not all were inherently evil. That means that the only ones that can be considered evil are the ones that have been shown to be evil. Which is ONE snake: Manda. You haven't the slightest chance of proving otherwise either.

As for Manda's modification, he was DEAD. Originally he was a normal snake. The boss summon of the snake pact, but still just a snake. Then Sasuke got him killed, but Kabuto revived him and did experiments on him to alter him (gave him limbs, increased his sensing abilities,etc).

I'd just like to point out that Naruto threw 3 FRS' like two chapters ago. And that was coming from a nearly "exhausted" Naruto. Everything else i agree with.

[ninjabot]

Hawk sage?

What the hell is that? Where was stated that sasuke's hawk is a sage? Wow. Just because you want sasuke to gain a powerups, you're assuming that sasuke's hawk is a sage? So, the humid forest(?) Is where the hawk sage lives?

When did I say that one existed?

Go ahead. Quote the exact point where I said that a hawk sage exists. I said that if he becomes a sage it would be thanks to a hawk sage's tutelage, because you can only learn senjutsu from an actual senjutsu master. And since his summoning pact is with hawks, the only one he could potentially gain this knowledge from, is a hawk.

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@NinjaStar: I remember that instance. I didn't bring it up because I thought Kurama had something to do with him having the chakra to make another since he can use FRS in Chakra Mode.

[Rikudou King]

No. Manda and gamabunta aren't a rivals. They're mortal enemies, the frogs and snakes. There's no such thing as rivalry to both snakes and frogs. The frogs hate the snakes and vice versa.

Not in the series mythology, since the slug is grouped along with them. Anyway, given that they would have had to work together in the past, when the Sannins were still together, their relationship couldn't have been as mortal enemies. And their enmity towards each other appeared to have come from the same event that Jiraiya and Orochimaru's enmity did.

And I agree with @so6pww, snakes is evil. For them, humans are just their foods. When oro summon manda, he wants to have at least a hundred humans as a sacrificed for calling him in a battle field. And it's not impossible for the white snake to asked kabuto to sacrifice a hundreds of humans in exchange for kabuto's training in sage mode. Yeah, that's what they are. Thats why kishi called the snake sage as the most evil sage mode.

Aside from Manda, name one other snake that was shown evil. The majority of snakes shown have been mindless fodder. Not only that, but if snakes were automatically evil, then neither Anko nor former Orochimaru would have employed them. After all, don't forget, Orochimaru wasn't always evil. So there's nothing suggesting that the Snake Sage is as evil as you seem to want him to be, especially since he looked pretty laid back from what we saw.

Orochimaru, Kabuto, Anko, and Sasuke's connection to snakes has nothing to do with "evil". Snakes are regularly attributed to "forbidden" knowledge and wisdom, which fits all all four characters, either because they know some sort of information (Orochimaru and Anko) or because they were on a quest to discover some information (Sasuke and Kabuto).

[NinjaStar]

When did I say that one existed?

Go ahead. Quote the exact point where I said that a hawk sage exists. I said that if he becomes a sage it would be thanks to a hawk sage's tutelage, because you can only learn senjutsu from an actual senjutsu master. And since his summoning pact is with hawks, the only one he could potentially gain this knowledge from, is a hawk.

---------- Post added at 03:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 AM ----------

@NinjaStar: I remember that instance. I didn't bring it up because I thought Kurama had something to do with him having the chakra to make another since he can use FRS in Chakra Mode.

Nope, Its just a side affect of him getting better with senjutsu i guess. Kinda like how he can get into it much faster and what not. Evidently he is a Saiyan and the more he fights the stronger and better he gets. Kurama was busy gathering chakra for operation doomed to fail...