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Thread: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

  1. #136
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    @Kid Chamelone can you please quote our names in these things so we can understand who the hell you are responding too? Please

    Saying that, I'm just going to bullet point a few things for you:

    1) The anime doesn't count and isn't Cannon so don't quote or reference it. A lot shit happens there screws with the manga, and a lot of it is important, so you're wrong, Jiraiya never visted the Toad Sage at 13.

    2) Naruto had the time constraints of the fact that Akatsuki was roaming around killing people and collecting Biju. Did he know that Konoha was going to be under attack? No. But, it's not like he years or even an extended amount of months to master this shit.

    3) The combination of Ma Pa and Bunta would throttle 95% of the ninja in this manga without their summoner. Two of them are Sages the other one is one of if not the Strongest Boss Summon after Manda we have seen. Denying this information is like saying Itachi isn't one of if not the best Genjutsu users in the manga.

    4) Bee was kicking Sasuke's ass before he even unleashed his Biju power so this is a moot point. Sasuke kicked him the fucking neck and he didn't even flinch. Bee having a Biju is equal to Sasuke have MS so i'm not sure what your point is.

    5) And Naruto does assess situations before hand, that's what his clones are for, look how he fought Kakazu an Akatsuki member.

    You keep complaing about Naruto yet you don't understand his character. HE"S SUPPOSED TO BE MORON! That's who he is. He's not a genius, he's an idiot savant who time to time has a great idea, but usually has to go in and do the dirty work to beat his opponents. There's a reason Kishi gave him a massive chakra reserve, because he needs it to compete with people.

    Now, should he be smarter? Of course, but Kishi is adamant about making his growth never stay consistent.

    And since you acknowledged your own bias, I won't go there, but I really have nothing more to add to this discussion because now we are repeating ourselves ad nausim and I swore I would stop doing this years ago on this site.
    Last edited by Delbi; January 25, 2013 at 03:54 PM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  3. #137
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Naruto getting Sage Mode was never a wrong thing. What was wrong was making him rely or solely use Kyuubi's chakra, like how it was wrong to make Sasuke use Susano'o a lot. At least in Part I Naruto started out with his own skills, but in the war, he just uses Kyuubi's power.

  4. #138
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    dude naruto is broken cause he has no base skills to fall back on and i know sasuke and naurto are 16 but sasuke fought deidara and he did manage to beat tsukyomi with a base sharigan while naruto hasnt fought one akatsuki memeber without power ups. he has 3 times the regular chakra of nin that should be sufficient enough
    He beat Deidara thanks to his body being augmented by Orochimaru's abilities, the Cursed Seal and an asspull final victory, while Naruto beat Kakuzu ( even though with the help of Kakashi when he screwed up ) without power-ups ( despite the eyes, the influx of Kyuubi's chakra was so minimum it didn't alter even his whiskers, and still he was all battered and tired from his training ).
    As for beating Tsukuyomi, taking too seriously a fight where the opponent was half-dead and willingly to die isn't really all that much.
    And even then, Sasuke was empowered by CS and Oro's chakra, so saying "by himself" isn't correct.
    Not at all

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Naruto getting Sage Mode was never a wrong thing. What was wrong was making him rely or solely use Kyuubi's chakra, like how it was wrong to make Sasuke use Susano'o a lot. At least in Part I Naruto started out with his own skills, but in the war, he just uses Kyuubi's power.
    No, he does not use only Kyuubi's chakra ( damn that's a lot of link, one for each word )

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Killing Deidara before he can activate jutsu is an option. And while he's great in the air, I would like to think Sasuke's Hawk is too. Not to mention Sasuke has elemental advantage. IMO, Sasuke now is better in every way that his CS self with just his plain Sharigan minus the snakes. He's bigger, stronger, has a larger chakra pool and has more experience.

    Comparing Sasuke and Shikamaru's skills aside from their intelligence is laughable as Sasuke out classes him every way possible.

    Saying that, Sakura and Chiyo did a hell of a job avoiding Sasori's attacks, and Sasuke for what it's worth is much much faster and has the Sharigan to help him dodge. Not to mention, Chidori Nagashi could like damage the puppets and electrify back to Sasori injuring him.
    True enough, but Deidara is no slouch either.
    And I think in the air he's superior too, if any because he could keep up with Oonoki.

    True, but that was comparing Shika's intelligence with Sasuke:
    knowing like we know that Shikamaru is better in that department, we can't expect Sasuke to pick up certain things faster than he does, meaning if Shikamaru needed a good bit of time to read Tayuya's fingers, I expect Sasuke to require more time.
    Predicting =/= reading, as the Bee fight proved.
    As for Sakura and Chiyo, it was all Chiyo's ( she was a master puppeter and Sasori's master so she knew perfectly how to read his attacks, and both of them were saved by Sakura's antidotes ) doing until Sakura experienced 29439 attacks, after which she started predicting them.
    Sasuke would have an easier time for sure, but he would still be in great danger imo
    Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; January 26, 2013 at 08:10 AM.

  5. #139
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    True, but that was comparing Shika's intelligence with Sasuke:
    knowing like we know that Shikamaru is better in that department, we can't expect Sasuke to pick up certain things faster than he does, meaning if Shikamaru needed a good bit of time to read Tayuya's fingers, I expect Sasuke to require more time.
    Predicting =/= reading, as the Bee fight proved.
    As for Sakura and Chiyo, it was all Chiyo's ( she was a master puppeter and Sasori's master so she knew perfectly how to read his attacks, and both of them were saved by Sakura's antidotes ) doing until Sakura experienced 29439 attacks, after which she started predicting them.
    Sasuke would have an easier time for sure, but he would still be in great danger imo
    I think you are seriously underestimating the abilities of Sharigan as they have been shown, and Sasuke's own battle intelligence. The Sharigna is going to slow things down for Sasuke and allow him to predict movments. If you forget, at the age of 13 he was able to tell what people were writing by their finger movements, thats how he cheated and passed the written portion of the exam.

    The ability for Sasuke and Shikamaru to pick things up fast is not separated by a wide gap, especially when it comes to jutsu, in fact Sasuke may be superior. Aside from having the Sharigan, lets not forget Sasuke trained with Orochimaru for 2 1/2 years, and has created far more jutsu than Shikamaru ever hoped to. Sasuke is a jutsu and battle specialist, while Shikamaru is a strategists, there is a difference.

    Look at Sasuke's fights vs. Deidara and Danzaou. Sasuke was able to pick apart their jutsu rather quickly no? Shikamaru would have been dead before he got a chance to do all that.

    IMO, what Shikamaru is so great at is once he figures out what you are doing, he can think up of 100's of ways to counter it in a matter of minutes. Sasuke, can't do that. He can figure you out, and then he'll make a strategy to get around you. Shikamaru will make 20 strategies just in case his first one doesn't work. Difference is, Shika has to do this because he has less to work with.

    Likewise, Shika would be better having multiple pieces to work with where he can use everyone's skills. Sasuke is better at just using his own skills and would likely do much worse than Shika if he had to lead an army.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  6. #140
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    No, he does not use only Kyuubi's chakra ( damn that's a lot of link, one for each word )
    like, three or five times he used Sage Mode or not Kyuubi's chakra. So? And you can't consider Sage Mode because he was trying to sense the Juubi, which he couldn't do in Rikudou Mode. Majority of the war, you'll see him in Rikudou Mode, and I'm not counting when he's in RM against the Zetsu.

  7. #141
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I think you are seriously underestimating the abilities of Sharigan as they have been shown, and Sasuke's own battle intelligence. The Sharigna is going to slow things down for Sasuke and allow him to predict movments. If you forget, at the age of 13 he was able to tell what people were writing by their finger movements, thats how he cheated and passed the written portion of the exam.

    The ability for Sasuke and Shikamaru to pick things up fast is not separated by a wide gap, especially when it comes to jutsu, in fact Sasuke may be superior. Aside from having the Sharigan, lets not forget Sasuke trained with Orochimaru for 2 1/2 years, and has created far more jutsu than Shikamaru ever hoped to. Sasuke is a jutsu and battle specialist, while Shikamaru is a strategists, there is a difference.

    Look at Sasuke's fights vs. Deidara and Danzaou. Sasuke was able to pick apart their jutsu rather quickly no? Shikamaru would have been dead before he got a chance to do all that.

    IMO, what Shikamaru is so great at is once he figures out what you are doing, he can think up of 100's of ways to counter it in a matter of minutes. Sasuke, can't do that. He can figure you out, and then he'll make a strategy to get around you. Shikamaru will make 20 strategies just in case his first one doesn't work. Difference is, Shika has to do this because he has less to work with.

    Likewise, Shika would be better having multiple pieces to work with where he can use everyone's skills. Sasuke is better at just using his own skills and would likely do much worse than Shika if he had to lead an army.
    I'm not saying that Shikamaru would have a chance fighting Sasori, I'm saying that Sasuke's analytical abilities < Shikamaru's.
    The Sharingan would be useless ( not really, but not as useful as you may think ) for two reasons:
    -even if it helps predicting the motion, predicting doesn't help that much ( as showed in the Bee vs Sasuke fight, Sharingan couldn't read Bee's swordplay and Sasuke got impaled ).
    -Seeing through chakra strings would be useless, since all the Sharingan would pick up is that they are strings made of chakra, puppeter abilities involve moving said puppets, and Chiyo explains pretty clearly how you need ton of experience to fight a puppet master

    As for his fights, in both occasions he was wounded and had to try some things to prove that his strategy was right, with Sasori he can't afford that, expecially because, without MS, he wouldn't be able to use Susano'o and without CS or Oro's abilities he can't fly nor shed his body and avoid the poison

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    like, three or five times he used Sage Mode or not Kyuubi's chakra. So? And you can't consider Sage Mode because he was trying to sense the Juubi, which he couldn't do in Rikudou Mode. Majority of the war, you'll see him in Rikudou Mode, and I'm not counting when he's in RM against the Zetsu.
    He used Sage Mode proficently in every fight he had in the war bar against Nagato, and even used it as a main weapon against Third Raikage ( one of the strongest Kages in history ) and Lord Madara ( 'nuff said ).
    He used Chakra Mode and Bijuu Mode because they were more powerful, but when the situation required it he switched to Sage Mode without missing a beat.
    Pretty different to using only Kyuubi's chakra

  8. #142
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    True, but he's mainly relied on Kyuubi's chakra. You see him in that mode more than in Sage Mode throughout the war, even against Raikage and Madara (total fight).

  9. #143
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I'm not saying that Shikamaru would have a chance fighting Sasori, I'm saying that Sasuke's analytical abilities < Shikamaru's.
    The Sharingan would be useless ( not really, but not as useful as you may think ) for two reasons:
    -even if it helps predicting the motion, predicting doesn't help that much ( as showed in the Bee vs Sasuke fight, Sharingan couldn't read Bee's swordplay and Sasuke got impaled ).
    -Seeing through chakra strings would be useless, since all the Sharingan would pick up is that they are strings made of chakra, puppeter abilities involve moving said puppets, and Chiyo explains pretty clearly how you need ton of experience to fight a puppet master

    As for his fights, in both occasions he was wounded and had to try some things to prove that his strategy was right, with Sasori he can't afford that, expecially because, without MS, he wouldn't be able to use Susano'o and without CS or Oro's abilities he can't fly nor shed his body and avoid the poison
    People seem to forget how deadly Sasori was just because he apparently lost to Sakura, when he was indeed fighting his Grandpa, Chiyo.
    I'd say base Sasuke with Sharingan only wouldn't stand a chance against Sasori. Someone who has never fought a puppet master cannot stand a chance against a poisonous set of puppets, especially if that master is as talented as Sasori was.

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  11. #144
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I'm not saying that Shikamaru would have a chance fighting Sasori, I'm saying that Sasuke's analytical abilities < Shikamaru's.
    The Sharingan would be useless ( not really, but not as useful as you may think ) for two reasons:
    -even if it helps predicting the motion, predicting doesn't help that much ( as showed in the Bee vs Sasuke fight, Sharingan couldn't read Bee's swordplay and Sasuke got impaled ).
    -Seeing through chakra strings would be useless, since all the Sharingan would pick up is that they are strings made of chakra, puppeter abilities involve moving said puppets, and Chiyo explains pretty clearly how you need ton of experience to fight a puppet master

    As for his fights, in both occasions he was wounded and had to try some things to prove that his strategy was right, with Sasori he can't afford that, expecially because, without MS, he wouldn't be able to use Susano'o and without CS or Oro's abilities he can't fly nor shed his body and avoid the poison
    Sasori and his puppets move in slow motion compared to Bee. That's insulting Bee to compare his speed to Sasori and his puppets.

    I understand that reading hands is not like reading bodily movements, but Sasuke is just as good at that as he is at reading bodily movements.

    I already gave you the Chunnin exam example, and he did the same thing vs. Deidara reading his handsigns. The fact of the matter is, the Sharigan gives you an advantage no matter what.

    And let's forget about Sasuke dodging Sasori, but Sasori hitting and keeping up with Sasuke. Sasuke obliterated a 1000 Sound-nin without a scratch, murdered a ton of Samurai in the same fashion. He'd regularly kick the hell out of Naruto and his clones, and this was long ago.

    Fact is, Sasori is going to have an even harder time hitting Sasuke than Sasuke is going to dodge Sasori and his puppets. Not to mention Sasuke has long ranged techniques and can fly on a hawk, whereas Sasori only has two puppets capable of long range attacks, himself, and The Third Kazekage.

    ---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    People seem to forget how deadly Sasori was just because he apparently lost to Sakura, when he was indeed fighting his Grandpa, Chiyo.
    I'd say base Sasuke with Sharingan only wouldn't stand a chance against Sasori. Someone who has never fought a puppet master cannot stand a chance against a poisonous set of puppets, especially if that master is as talented as Sasori was.
    Sasuke is no normal ninja, he is one of the greatest Sharigan users ever. Master Sharigan users like himself are to be feared just as much as someone like Sasori.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  12. #145
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Sharingan is proven to be able to keep up with hand signs. Reading fingertip movements is different from reading hand signs, though. Without knowing the maneuvers, it's almost impossible to keep up with, because it's not simple taijutsu.
    Then also, Sasuke first has to destroy Hiruko puppet to be able to win against Sasori. He doesn't have the body strength like Sakura to smash it into pieces, so, he'd need to use Chidori, I guess. It will probably break through, but the moment his Chidori makes contact, he will be prone to a counter-attack, as well.

    The thing is, that goes for Sasori, as well. He isn't 1000 Sound-nin. That's quality over quantity.
    Base Sasuke is strong, as seen in him defeating Deidara. But Deidara stated that he was the weaker of the artist duo, so, that's some expectable result, I believe.

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  14. #146
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Sharingan is proven to be able to keep up with hand signs. Reading fingertip movements is different from reading hand signs, though. Without knowing the maneuvers, it's almost impossible to keep up with, because it's not simple taijutsu.
    Then also, Sasuke first has to destroy Hiruko puppet to be able to win against Sasori. He doesn't have the body strength like Sakura to smash it into pieces, so, he'd need to use Chidori, I guess. It will probably break through, but the moment his Chidori makes contact, he will be prone to a counter-attack, as well.

    The thing is, that goes for Sasori, as well. He isn't 1000 Sound-nin. That's quality over quantity.
    Base Sasuke is strong, as seen in him defeating Deidara. But Deidara stated that he was the weaker of the artist duo, so, that's some expectable result, I believe.
    Sasuke can create a chidori sword, or spear and cut the puppet in half easily.

    IMO, Sasori is going to have to compete with Sasuke trying to kill him, it's not like he's just going to be standing around. Sasuke can tear through these puppets at break neck speed. Sasori tries to hit him he can Shusin away or take to the sky and attack from there.

    Sakura smashed the shit out of everyone of those puppets with being countered. I don't care if Chiyo was controlling her, Sasuke is faster, has faster normal reflexes, and has the Sharigan.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  15. #147
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Chouji and Shikamaru's techniques aren't Kekkai Genkai though. People often complain about Sasuke's abilities but fail to realize if he wasn't a genius he'd never be able to use them like he does if at all.
    Well we can use Kimimaro as an example, same blood line limit as the rest of the Kaguya but even they feared him as he was the cream of the crop. How many said "well, his bone manipulation is cheap!".
    I am by no means a Sasuke fan, I hope he gets royally screwed, hate his personality but I do appreciate his skill.
    Meh

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  17. #148
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Sasuke can create a chidori sword, or spear and cut the puppet in half easily.

    IMO, Sasori is going to have to compete with Sasuke trying to kill him, it's not like he's just going to be standing around. Sasuke can tear through these puppets at break neck speed. Sasori tries to hit him he can Shusin away or take to the sky and attack from there.

    Sakura smashed the shit out of everyone of those puppets with being countered. I don't care if Chiyo was controlling her, Sasuke is faster, has faster normal reflexes, and has the Sharigan.
    well , Sasuke has Sharingan and can see chakra flow .... so he is always one step ahead of puppet users ...

    _______________________________________

    and something is intersting ....

    Sasuke isn't sage mode user but he has a super strong jutus that relying on using Natural energy ( Kirin ) but in other hand Naruto is a sage mode user but he has no sage mode jutsu ..... he only produce more chakra that make him faster and using Sage mode sensing ability ...

    if Sasuke go and learn sage mode , his sage mode would be Superior than Naruto .... at least he can perform Kirin faster and make it stronger ...

    and chapter 616 and 617 ruined every thing for Naruto ... even Lee become super fast and strong with tiny portion QB's chakra ....
    خداحافظ

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  19. #149
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member RomeCity's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    "where does Sasuke's hate comes from", that was the other part of this topic right? how about we discuss that....

    i think it comes from his whole family being killed by the leaf in whatever shape or fashion

  20. #150
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    It's not Sasuke's hate, but the hate for Sasuke by fans.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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