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Now you are being childish. Your first point makes no sense, as Sasuke has never exhibited that kind of behaviour.
Right, so after literally putting his life on the line just to survive an onslaught from the Kages, he should just let that opportunity slip by? That would've been the most idiotic course of action, because you and I both know this was the only chance he was ever going to get. It was a smart move to pursue the man that helped slaughter his clan and grave robbed them for his own petty gains. He died a fitting dog's death.
You somehow speak for the world? Conversely you may also throw the same justification in my face, but believe me, I am not a hopeless dreamer or a fanatical optimist. Kindly look at the world around you and the deterioration in human values and then talk. You must have lived a very sheltered life to habour this insane level of positivity. Optimism is good -without a doubt - but it shouldn't be blind.
Let's not talk about realities here, as there is no such thing as an 'objective reality' or 'Universal reality'. We all have our own perceptions about the world. Also, this would be completely off topic, hence don't use this point in your next reply. The issue is not about right and wrong anymore. Sheesh, would you get this through your head? It's about repercussions and the reality of their - Konoha's government - actions. Do you think people they have wronged will continue to be oppressed for the sake of their nation's expansion? If they valued their innocents, they should not have slaughtered innocents callously.
Any sense of history? Trust me, I know what I am talking about as well. The world hasn't improved. People are still being openly slaughtered, lands plundered, countries are still being subjugated. What has improved? You should also keep the elements of population in mind. The world's population has expanded to an enormous degree. Today countries use advanced weapons to wipe out populations, media isn't exactly as 'free' as you may think. Media is being controlled everywhere to sift the information. The atrocities are far greater than what you actually see on news. I'll give you an example; here in northern areas, USA has killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people. Especially in areas like Hazara. That the locals are calling it a 'genocide'. Have you seen that on any news channel?
My point is, people haven't improved, we have just progressed in terms of warfare, technology etc. At individual level, we are still the same people that kill others for expansion, resources, and ethic or national superiority. Impose their will? Please stop saying that people are not rabid followers of nationalism. They are, and they fully support their nation's agendas. Only when comes back around at them do they fall back. That's why I used your country's example. You people - majority - fully backed USA's war on Afghanistan. Don't even try to deny it. Only now when the economy is suffering because of the pitfalls of so many military campaigns is your nation realizing that this war is wrong. It isn't out of sympathy for so many innocent lives lost. Sure, few people may hold this sentiment, I am not denying it, but the reality is contrary.
Konoha is just like any Nation. There is nothing to suggest that the people held no power. If that was the case, then Naruto wouldn't have suffered at the hands of such a selfish and fickle public. Despite being protected by Hokage, Naruto was still put through hell, people played fatal pranks on him, ninjas harboured ill-will towards him regardless of his father's sacrifices. Only when he put his life on the line did they turn around? What an honest bunch of people filled with goodness, who only had a change of heart when something was done for their interest. You are honestly saying that Konoha holds no power? Sorry, I just don't see your logic here.
The citizens didn't know about the coup, but when Kakashi found out the whole story, he felt compelled that it was Sasuke who was in the wrong, not the government. How different would the sentiments of the rest of public would be, who are benefiting from their nation's power? Why didn't he bring it in the knowledge of the rest of the ninjas? No, he went ahead to kill Sasuke regardless. When the just course would have been to expose the government. Even if he completely didn't believe Tobi, he still should've done something to get to the bottom of the matter. Yet, he still believed it was Sasuke who had 'sunk low'. You are just ... wrong.
The whole world doesn't revolve around your country and I, frankly speaking don't care about it. I mean no offense, but I seriously don't. The original point is nationalism, which propagates or results in external patterns outside the country, not usually within it. How many people still don't support Obama then? How about the still on-going racial discrimination in your country? It's on one ground or another. Just because they have selected a black president doesn't mean people have completely turned tolerant. That has got to be the worst argument out of you, as selecting a president has a lot to do with party policies for the country.
IQ levels have dropped according to latest researches, so people are becoming more 'stupid', actually. But let's forget that. So religion and nationalism is the only cause of contentions? Are you serious? Differences are created on perceptions, ideals, ethnicity, race, creed, cultures etc etc. The list is so long. If people are letting go of one thing, they always adopt another mode to oppress. Take Atheism and the followers of this school of thought. All they do is attack people who follow religion. This is another form of group segregation. Did liberation from an old ideal alter their perceptions? It sure as hell didn't. How many times do you see atheistic people supporting cartoons, movies, videos etc that openly degrade their religious personalities? Yes, surely people have evolved.
I only gave you an example of USA, so that you might understand it better. I mean no disrespect, but don't flatter yourself. I have no interest in your country nor do I have any self-righteous view about mine. In fact, I take no interest in any country, mine included that is literally the cesspit of corruption and intolerance. What do I take interest in? That is a self-reserved opinion which I don't feel like sharing. Yes, there are two sides to a coin, but goodness is seldom found in today's world. You can cling onto optimism, no one is asking you to let go of it. But over-optimism is never a good thing. Just a piece of advise.
Sasuke has never shown that kind of behavior? Ok, now I suggest you go re-read the manga. He's essentially tried to display the dominance of the Uchiha every chance he got, in front of Danzou, in front of Kakashi, calling Naruto less "special than him". He believe himself and the Uchiha to be superior to all others.
As for him staying to fight, this makes no sense. Why would he never get another opportunity? It's not like he wouldn't know were Danzou is. The fact is, he went after him again, despite being injured, tired and out gunned. Did he kill Danzou in the Summit? No, he got Obito to warp him to him.
Sasuke wanted to avenge his clan, but hatred blinded him from doing so. Sasuke barely survived his encounter with A and Gaara, and yet he thought it was a good idea to go after Danzou, who was with two other Kages plus 6 additional Jounin, and the Leader of all the Samurai? For someone as smart as him, this plan was terrible. He could have retreated, regrouped, and tried to attack Danzou when he left, or simply had Obito warp him to him like he did anyway.
Furthermore, Sasuke wants to revive his clan. He can't do that if he's dead. I agree that Danzou deserved to die like a dog, but the notion that this was Sasuke's only and best opportunity is far from true.
As for being a optimist, I like to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. My optimism is not blind, I am fully aware of the atrocities of the world. However, were I have seen acts that make me sick, I've also seen acts that make me hope. As humans, we have the potential to be either truly great, or truly depraved, it goes both ways.
And I am well aware there is not a Universal reality, but there are facts that are proven true. And where the hell did I disagree about Konoha getting what is coming to it? The probelm is, in Naruto's world Konoha can actually get what it deserves because of people like Nagato and Sasuke who have massive amount of power. Don't kid yourself for a second, comparing that to real world nations is a joke as the only way for real world super powers to be taken down militarily is through full scale nuclear war.
And also, please don't try and educate me on my own military. Believe me, I am fully aware that we kill innocents everyday, half of them in countries you probably didn't even know we were in. My country feels the need to "police" the world and we don't give two shits about who gets killed in the process. We only fight in arenas where we have an interest politically and economically. Do not think that I am so blind to not see this.
Also, my country did not fully back the war on Afghanistan so don't speak of matters you don't know about. Not once, in the history of my country, has there been a war we have fully backed. What news channel did you get that from?
And also don't speak of my countries economy as if our military is the only reason it's in the shitter. Our military spending is massive, there is no doubt about that, but it is only a fraction of a much larger problem. Our military has always been one of if not the largest portions of our spending, but surprisingly our country hasn't always been in debt. And why is that? Because my country stopped manufacturing things and instead has to buy everything from everywhere else.
People use the military as an excuse because it's an easy target. They don't like to admit that Well Fare, Social Security, Government Bail Outs, Unemployment, etc etc is what is crippling our economy. Reducing military spending doesn't fix that larger problem that our country has socialist ideals that are destroying our economy along with the fact that the 1% nearly destroyed it with bad loans and shitting investments.
And I am not disagreeing with you about Konoha being a shitty place for someone like Naruto so Idk why you are going on a rant in that regard. But the notion that the people of Konoha had any real power is a joke. The fact that slavery in the Hyuuga clan exists and the fact the most powerful clan in the village was wiped out on the orders of a few men shows that the people have no real power.
Sasuke was in the wrong because he wanted to slaughter the entire village. Again, that is so stupid it isn't even up for debate. He wanted to kill people who had noting to do with the massacre hence why Kakashi wanted to kill him. Kakashi is also a soldier, he is bound to protect his country. You don't support a country so you would never be a soldier, and thus disagree with Kakashi's view to protect his village and the people in it.
Saying the whole world doesn't revolve around my country is true, but it's also false. People like you don't give a shit about my country and rightfully so, I agree with your sentiment in that regard. However, do to the sheer military might of the USA (and quite frankly, there is no debating this) we have essentially told the entire world to "fuck off" we will do as we please. Our economy affects large portions of the world, again something that isn't up for debate. Do I like this? No I don't, I don't think it's fair that my country can essentially impose it's will on the rest of the world with no consequences. I know for a fact that every day we kill innocent people and commit atrocities all over the planet, and yet there is little to nothing I can do about it.
More about my country. Yes, it still full of racism and people are still ignorant. But the fact remains the amount of those people has decreased dramatically.
Moving on. IQ is a terrible way to judge intelligence, and intelligence itself is ever changing.
Case and point. I have an IQ of roughly 170, and yet I am far from being genius.
An example: Our vocabularies have shrunk significantly in the past 200 years. Saying that, many of the words we have lost, mean little to us. What is the point of speaking in a complex fashion when you can simply speak in a more direct and frank way?
Also. Our intelligence has decreased, and yet we keep creating new things. Aristole couldn't have dreamed of having a computer, much less one you can fit in the palm of your hand.
We look like we are less intelligent today because there are more of us. Intelligence in the past was measured by the intelligence of the elite, not the entire population. Whereas today, in my country, we can tell you the literacy rates of nearly everyone in a public school.
Perspective is key when speaking about intelligence.
Things I think we can agree on, and hopefully things we won't have to go back to:
1. Konoha is no perfect place, and indeed should suffer the consequences of it's actions. I agree with you that the village (as in it's leaders, not its general population) was in the wrong in regards to a lot of things, not just the Uchiha massacre.
2. Some things will never change in this world, and there will always be asshole being racist, killing people etc.
3. My country is certainly guilty of many atrocities that aren't in the view of the public. Anyone with any involvement in the military (such as my self) and half a brain knows this along with many other people.
4. Religions nuts, atheists nuts, and people who overly nationalist in their views are hypocritical and often times blindly follow anything they are told.
Things I think we disagree on:
1. The mass majority of population should suffer for the misdeeds of those in power. Sasuke should IMO, kill the elders and those involved in giving the orders for his clan to die, along with those that oppressed him (they are already dead tho).
He should not, however, kill the innocent children who were born after the massacre, or the people who actually praised him and his clan. He wants to kill innocent people, and despite the fact that many in his clan were innocent, two wrongs do not make a right.
2. The notion that everyone supports the actions of their country. This is so far from the truth it isn't even funny, and I would think an educated person like yourself would understand that in no way shape or form did 350 million people agree with a war on Afghanistan.
3. The idea we haven't come a long way as humans. As I said before, "bad" people will always exist. But the fact still remains we are better as a whole today than we ever were before. Our world is not staying stagnant nor going backwards. Are some things still happening today that happened 2000 years ago? Of course, but it's a narrow minded view to think that just because bad shit still happens that no progress is being made.
If we gave the weapons we have today, to say, the Muslims and Christians who fought in the Crusades, they would have destroyed half the planet.
4. Obvious misconceptions I believe you have about my country. I may never be able to convince you on some things regarding my country, but unless you have been here, lived here, and have studied our problems extensively, I have to say you don't know what you are talking about in terms of our economics, and the stance of many American's on things like our war (which is something that is never measured correctly FYI), and other things.
I agree with you on how we kill innocents, how our country shouldn't be the center of the world, and other things obviously.
And please, point out things you think I fucked up, or things you disagree with me on, I rather like debating with you. Thank you.
^ I never said you 'are childish'. I said your are 'being childish'. Two very different things. I agree though, that is a huge volume of text. :/ Sasuke has not displayed the kind of behaviour you labelled him with. I never once said he hasn't exhibited pride. Showing pride or valuing your clan is something everyone should do. Is he wrong? Kakashi is famous for an eye that he shouldn't have. He developed on it, when that remnant would obviously mock Sasuke that the soldiers carry trophies of war from his clan when they were exterminated? Forget Naruto, he deserves whatever is thrown his way.
Okay, so continuing on from there when he had a chance sounds unreasonable to you, but attacking Konoha and in turn every single ninja there sounds more feasible? You have got to be kidding me. That doesn't even sound sane. Now why would anyone in their right minds let such a golden opportunity slip by, when the alternative sounds like a statistical impossibility given Konoha's military numbers? The plan probably would be terrible if you look at it without the alternative option, because without it anything he did then doesn't make sense. On the flip side, wanting to face god knows how many jounins doesn't seem feasible to me or even intelligent. He went for the best strategy out of the two options. I would have done the same.
I don't disagree with your views on humanity, but I don't side with them. People have different opinions after all. I am not educating you on your own country, I am giving examples for your better understanding as you belong from USA. If I gave examples from my own country's consistently hilarious political turmoils, you wouldn't understand a thing, and we wouldn't get anywhere in the discussion. Even if 50.1 percent backed it, it's still majority in terms of statistics. Let's not forget that. Also, Military is one of the major factors for this economic instability. I never even once ventured that military forays are your country's sole reason for economic recession.
Here is where you and I will always disagree. Sasuke's actions are not saintly, but understandable. He's equating his loss by attacking the village that destroyed his. Many innocents in his village were slaughtered when there was nothing wrong with the coup. The uchihas had been driven to the fringes of tolerance. Kakashi was a teacher and a mentor as well, so being a ruthless solider is not his only obligation. Sasuke was his responsibility as well. And if a government was involved in this level of corruption, as a soldier whose whole value is determined by his sharingen, shouldn't he feel some sort of moral obligation towards a clan, from which he holds such a prestigious gift?
Kakashi is behaving like a typical government lapdog. Not some solider filled to the brim with nobility as you make him sound like. Every action has a background, and in Sasuke's case it's about a past that has wrought his present hateful stance, and Konoha itself is at the heart of it. Throwing away all factors that have shaped Sasuke, he still tried to kill him, when as a decent solider, he should've supported his student by digging into the matter. That way, if he ever assured him that the corrupt government will be dealt with, Sasuke could have been reasoned with. Do you except ANY person to respond to, 'you have sunk this low' after the reality is known to both? He would bash that person's face in and rightly so. This would result in hostility which Sasuke exhibited.
Hyuuga clan's opression was done by their clan themselves. How many considered it unjust other than Neji or his teacher perhaps? Did any other ninja or clan ever intervene to say that the clan's attitude was unjust? Did the government ever intervene? This just shows you are wrong here, period. It clearly exhibits that people were powerful enough to do things their way.
I don't give a 'shit' about any country, as I already made it clear. Your intelligence points are unconvincing. As these technological items are not created by everybody. Whereas in olden times, people learned so much IF they enrolled themselves in prestigious institutes. Degradation in the understanding of common concepts, loss of natural selection before sexuality, mannerisms etc all point towards human regression as a species.
Literacy rate doesn't equate intelligence, as the definition of a 'literate' individual varies from one country to another. Education doesn't serve as a tool of enlightenment for everyone. Let me give you an example from my own country. No matter how educated a man gets, he'll always be a bigot, sexist, racist typical Pakistani man. This holds true for the majority. But, this is clearly off topic.
Well, I have only included things we disagree on. lol
And just so you know, it is entirely possible for a President in our country to win the popular vote, but still lose the election. So even when the "majority" of the Country doesn't want someone to be President he still can be thanks to our incredibly flawed system, and it's happened before.
And for the record, you said this "Only now when the economy is suffering because of the pitfalls of so many military campaigns is your nation realizing that this war is wrong. It isn't out of sympathy for so many innocent lives lost."
No, our Nation realized this war was wrong, because we were lied to, not because of money, we went to war with the wrong people, for the wrong reasons. And despite what you may think, many people do want to end the wars because of the lives lost, but sadly they don't make the decisions.
As I stated before, our country has always had an extremely large military budget, and our recent economic is not due to increased spending on the military, but because of failures in other areas I already mentioned. Does our high military cost help? No, but it isn't the cause of the problem, it is simply compounding the fact because our Nation isn't making money like it used to, and is wasting money in ways it never has before.
This wouldn't even be an eye for an eye logic seeing as how Konoha's population is far larger than the Uchiha Clan population.
While I think Kakashi deserves a lot of the blame for what happened to Sasuke, I will never fault him for finally wanting to kill him after seeing all Sasuke has done. Sarturobi failed to kill his student Orochimaru, and in the end it cost him his life and lives of many of his soldiers.
What few people know about Slavery is that Lincoln didn't care if there were slaves so long as the Union stayed intact. Same thing with Konoha and the Branch Family issue I assume.
My point was that no group can simply unseat the government in today's world were the government is actually stable and powerful. The Uchiha Clan planned it and were wiped out before they could even try.
In Olden times people also learned "so much" that was "so wrong". The simple fact that every day we as a species learn a truth that was unknown the day before is an example of this. 1000 years ago, the smartest man on the planet "knew" the earth was flat and the center of the Universe. Most 7 year olds today can tell you the Earth is round and not the center of the Universe.
And you say we have regressed as a species, but also mention that this: " IF they enrolled themselves in prestigious institutes" . What you should have said was IF THEY WERE ALLOWED to enroll themselves into prestigious institutes.
Fact is, not so long ago even in the most "free" societies you could only be offered an education if you were a male of the controlling class of a society, and even then you would probably still need money to do so. And while this is still the case in some places, the fact is it is not like this in the way it used to for the majority of countries that offer some sort of educational system. I should know given the fact I've helped build schools on three different continents.
Now, I know what you are saying in regards to men in your country. No I have never experienced it first hand in your country, but i've read about it and have some experience with other cultures where it is similar although not nearly as extreme.
But when you give this an example as to why we are regressing as a species: "Degradation in the understanding of common concepts, loss of natural selection before sexuality, mannerisms etc all point towards human regression as a species". I have to scratch my head.
1) The degradation of common concepts: I will not doubt this world is littered with idiots, but that's always been and always will be the case. You can't fault those without education for their deficiencies, and I really don't grasp what you are getting at here.
2) Loss of natural selection before sexuality: Are you implying that we value our sexual needs before the need to reproduce with the best viable off spring? IMO, it may be cultural differences, or I simply may be mis-understanding you, but I for one fully embrace sexuality and all things with it. IMO, natural selection in the case of humans has as much to do with someone's sexual prowess as it does their physical gifts, intelligence, economic status, etc in our world today.
3) Mannerisms: Can you give an example? Because are you referring to our Etiquette or our mannerisms as people that may seem crude and immature in today's world?
That was the original plan. After Danzo 'escaped', he had no other option but to chase him. What if he went into hiding? Danzo was after all chilling when Pein was renting Konoha asunder. That man is capable of it.
That sentence doesn't even remotely translate into, "Military invasions are the sole reason for economic recessions". I ventured that it was a strong contender for the cause and effect reasoning, and I still hold that opinion. And from your earlier post, you hold the same opinion as well.
This isn't a football match, nor is Sasuke counting his people killed and Konoha's people killed on his fingers. He's basically exacting revenge on an entire nation, as a nation includes everyone. The coup was a right course of action. If I go by your logic, then every revolution resulting from Oppression should be unjust and its people slaughtered like animals. Sasuke's stance is understandable, and the latest chapter proves Tobirama's tyrannical policy towards the whole matter. He believed as if their clan was the sole heir to the village's political power, when Uchiha helped it form as well; they held an equal share in the power balance. A fact, he didn't deny when Orochimaru called him out on it on the whole 'police business'.
So Sasuke should have just laid his neck down for Sakura to satisfy Kakashi's whims and ideals on being noble rather than 'sinking low'? She instigated, he had every right to kill her. What has Sasuke done exactly that is so terrible if compared to Village leaders? He killed Danzo, who helped kill his clan. What else was so threatening to Konoha? In fact, Konoha as a whole has been a threat to Pein's village - destroyed it as well - Uchiha and god knows how many other clans and ninjas. Kabuto's shady past should be a clear example, how disgustingly cruel Konoha's political system is. I see no harm in destroying such a village that misuses its might. It should be put down.
You cannot equate Orochimaru's case with Sasuke's. Not only are they very different, but their pasts are not even remotely relatable. One has an obsession with immortality, the other was wronged by the arbitrary government after 3 generations of subjugation at the hands of Senju clan, and the pro-senju political lobby. Blind eye? I seriously doubt that. There isn't any proof in the manga that the government didn't know about the practice. They didn't think it was their place to intervene in their cultural practice which proves the people had power. The Uchiha clan was the only oppressed clan, and that had a LOT or everything to do with Tobirama, who never accepted them or gave them an equal status.
- I believe the world is filled with more idiots than before because of the 'drop in quality' due to population explosion.
- I am talking about over-sexualization. In today's world people treat sexuality and sex as if you can't live without it. People have become base in this regard. Child bearing is not dependent on natural selection anymore but economic factors, and sexuality rather than other important factors that would keep the gene pool consecrated from other pools in terms of upholding the finest qualities of the survival of the fittest.
- Yes. People have become far too crude.
---------- Post added at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 AM ----------
Shorten your points. My fingers are aching man....
Last edited by shahdan; February 05, 2013 at 02:40 PM.
And even if he escaped back to Konoha, he had Obito who could get him anywhere he needed to be. Zetsu could have attacked as recon, Karin to sense were exactly Danzou was, and Obito to deliver him to him. Hell, Obito could have even abducted Danzou.
And obviously Tobirama's stance was bullshit, I was saying that years ago so I agree there. Doesn't change the fact that Sasuke stated he wanted to kill everyone despite their age, stance, or if they were even shinobi.
- I personally would go nuts without sex so I completely disagree with you. Sex, at it's base, is a gift. I don't do drugs, and while I do drink, I don't do so in excess in large part I think because I treat sex as my drug. When safely done, it does not harm anyone or anything. Sex is a proven stress reducer, is healthy for you, and regular sex is scientifically proven to make you healthier.
And while I personally am disgusted by many people in this world for a slew of reasons, we simply can't stop people from reproducing how they see fit.
Just by percentages, even without knowing anything about you, you and I for that matter, would not be chosen by females if they were looking for the best mates in our populations if we choose to go by the finest qualities and survival of the fittest. The fact is, the finest qualities are also dependent on culture.
- People have always been crude this is nothing new, the crudeness is simply much more publicized now than ever before and is much more in the open. You can point to past people who weren't crude and 9/10 times you can find evidence that they in fact were, it just happened behind closed doors.
Last edited by Delbi; February 05, 2013 at 02:59 PM.
^ I am tired. I don't agree with any of the points we originally showed disagreement over. I am going to sum them up in a few lines pointers:
- Your opinion. Karin's sensor ability has a range, and if Danzo slipped well beyond her range, Sasuke would've lost him to distance. I believe it was the best course of action.
- You said so yourself, genocide. That's what Sasuke would do, as Konoha slaughtered his kin in a similar fashion when a simple political dialogue or arrests would have prevented all this and demands could have been met. Konoha chose an easy way out, rather than actually meeting the demands of the oppressed clan. They obviously didn't want to.
- She instigated because of her own 'BS' lovers logic. She wanted to be the one to free Sasuke from all this under an act of love. But regardless, no one at Sasuke's place would let himself be killed. She instigated, he retaliated. She should've seen this coming, along with Kakashi. In a shinobi world, where ALL nations are prone to hideous practices, Kakashi should have kept his opinions about 'low moralities' to himself, as he must have killed many for his nation as well. Which was my point.
- Maybe. But you can't say that for sure. Until I don't see anything from the manga in this regard, I don't agree with your opinions.
- I am talking about the 'base' nature of sex. You are only going nuts, because you probably lack self-control. Anything that can be controlled isn't a matter of life and death. Relying too much on a desire that is depriving people of natural resources and pushing humanity down the downward spiral of corruption on economic factors lone...I would say the over-sexualization should be hampered for population control. As not every country preachers the use of contraceptives or contraceptives themselves aren't completely foolproof.
Forget about the rest. lol
Last edited by shahdan; February 05, 2013 at 03:11 PM.