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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Kakuzu was enreaged because he lost 3 hearts and Naruto caught him in a feint. A little weak but not a catastrophe.
For Pain he used the 5 second failing in the Shinra Tensei by attacking Pain on the 2nd wave instead of the 1st. That was genius and it worked.
You miss all that clone training to expedite Naruto's learning curve, and the traiining to develop RS, then the sage-mode training to develop the FRS. Then the Kyuubi training to develop the 9-tails chakra mode. It wasn't given to him he did earn it.Quote:
People seem to forget the timeframe in Part 1. It's less than a year, maybe less than 6 months and you want Naruto to be a better master than Jiraiya in sage mode? Someone who was practicing it for decades? He learned it maybe 1-2 months ago. Naruto's just starting to learn his abilities and people want him to be a "master" of them already. Context, people. If you stop focusing on the here and now and view from the entire storyline, it actually fits quite well.
Here's the deal with Naruto. He's stupid, but clever. He will never ace an exam but he will find a way to pull a prank on Iruka when nobody is watching.. So Naruto isn't going to invent 1,000 different techniques to slay his opponent. He has limited options, but where Naruto shines is how he executes those limited options to defeat his opponents. That's where Naruto's creativity comes into play.Quote:
Naruto was never about defying destiny. Naruto was all about following his own path and defying the status quo of the ninja system. The problem has evolved from bringing back Sasuke to breaking the ninja world out of its cycle of hate. Sasuke is just the tip of the incoming iceberg and the stakes have risen as well. After Naruto challenged Sasuke to their final duel, Naruto has stopped pursuing Sasuke. His focus has shifted to other priorities-realizing that in fixing those may enable him to address Sasuke.Quote:
Like I said before, stupid but clever. Naruto's been true to that model since chapter 1. It's part plot device to introduce new material and part character development. Kishi has been using themes of hard work vs genius in several stroylines. Naruto has been placed in the working camp, it's who he is. To have him switched to the other because a portion of the fanbase would think it's cooler would really be an insult to the viewership and destroy this manga.Quote:
Last edited by Brill; January 22, 2013 at 01:59 PM.
What about the will to sacrifice his life to save Naruto?
Or how he trained with Naruto into the wee hours of the morning trying to beat him at tree climbing?
And most of all, when he brother killed his entire family, and left him for dead, he clung on to life, survived, and thrived as a ninja. Just because he had hatred in his heart doesn't mean he didn't have a strong will. I'm not sure how you can't see that.
i didnt mean defying destiny i meant the limits destiny put on you like him being born alone and no one liking him to becoming home town hero. so yeah you worded it better than me XP and hes not directly chasing sasuke but hes still his main motivating driveQuote:
i totally agree with you hes stupid but clever im not saying he needs 1000 jutsu as i said 1 or 2 wouldnt hurt. its just a shame which direction the story went, in part 1 he was doing all these clever stunts winning fights with his brains and will but now he just powers upQuote:
part 1 when he fought kakshi,zabuza,neji, kabuto, gaara and even against sasuke he was outclassed but still managed to catch them off guard and land a hit or cause some serious damage. now its like he needs a super new rasengan and a new form just to keep up in every new fight
It can easily be argued that Sasuke wasn't a mentally strong character in that sense when he was left with no place to go after Itachi's death and learning the truth behind it. I
f pursuing a revenge is the symbol of one's strong will, letting that revenge go is even more of a symbol of that same power. That's why, for Naruto, coming into believing that taking revenge from Nagato for Jiraiya's death would not change the matter as his master would want him to do, was a big step in demonstrating that will power inside his heart.
Not that he followed it up with all the great steps afterwards, anyway.
Saying Sasuke isn't strong willed is like saying Shikamaru isn't smart. Sasuke's will is tremendous.
As for his will being broken after Itachi died, of course it was. Likewise, Naruto's will was broken after Jiraiya's death, after getting pinned to the ground by Pain, and when he fainting knowing Sasuke was evil. Kakashi's will was broken when he was confronted by Obito. Kabuto's will was broken when Itachi perfromed Izanami on him. Etc, etc. etc.
There are plenty of characters with strong wills who have their wills broken, but they eventually find their resolve and fight on. No character asides from maybe Madara and Hashirama have yet to not have their wills broken.
As for Sasuke letting his revenge go being a sign of a strong will, I agree but also disagree.
Naruto let go of his hatred for Nagato because "it's what his teacher would want", yet he was also very short sighted. If Nagato didn't bring everyone back to life, Naruto's decision to not kill him would look stupid, he'd let a mass murdering psycho-path with a Messiah complex live on to fight another day. That wouldn't mean he had a strong will, it would mean he was stupid.
Likewise, Sasuke is looking to punish people who had nothing to do with his clan's death so he can prove a point. This is stupid of course, but, Sasuke is right for wanting to seek justice, it's just that he's taking it way too far.
So should Sasuke let go of his hatred? Realistically he would be on the level of Jesus Christ if he could. But he isn't like that, as aren't 99% of people. So while his will power to let go of his hatred would be epic proportions, to say he has no will power because he doesn't is very wrong.
1. Easy? Are you fucking kidding me? I'll write in the order and examples you provided:
Kakuzu - How the hell was that easy? Kakuzu was an above rank S criminal wanted in the whole world. He was easily Kage level who was put down once Naruto joined the battle.
Obito/6Jins - They took him and one of them is still taking him. Why Obito can't deal any significant damage to him? Simple, he was in RM and now he's complete.
Kyuubi - Another proof that you have to re-read the manga or stop smoking whatever it is you're smoking. Naruto sent dozen of Gargantuan Rasengans at him which was more than enough to put him down. A Gargantuan Rasengan is probably 10 times, if not more, stronger than a regular one. He sent 20+ KBs with each one having Gargantuan Rasengan ready to kick his ass.
2. A Jesus without effort? I loled, literally. Most of Naruto's techniques were shown actually WITH effort, which the fucking irony here is ready to burst out of your post. A Rasengan is a A class technique which was never FINISHED. Naruto learned it in 7 days which was SHOWN. Adding an element to that Rasengan makes it an above S rank technique which was also SHOWN how Naruto practiced it and getting to acquire that ability.
Sage mode - Naruto perfected it to a level Jiraiya never could. Jiraiya showed more abilities because he could fuse with the frogs, obviously. Besides, if you understood what kind of character Naruto is, you'd know he doesn't need 1000 techs in his pocket, but I'll get to that later, don't worry.
3. Actually, Naruto is quite clever when it comes to strategy in battles. I honestly don't know what you've been reading but Naruto's shown a sense of thinking in-battle more than once. Just because he's a confused idiot sometimes, doesn't make his mind as a shinobi garbage. You're honestly hilarious.
4. Okay, now I've got new adjective for you - moronic. Luckily for you, I decided to break it down for you. In Part 1, Naruto was struggling to get acknowledged in a world where he was labeled with a rather cruel etiquette. Along with his strong will and self-confidence, he learned from Kakashi that saving his comrades should be the most important thing, which later became his objective (Sasuke) because that's his way of the ninja. You call that gay? I call you an immature reader who doesn't know shit.
5. Those are your arguments for his "stupidity"? You're just spouting nonsense of hate. Ridiculous.
Summary of your post:
At first you're complaining that Naruto knows only a few techniques and then a little bit later you say that he has too many asspulls. You're contradicting yourself so much that you sound/look even more stupid than you already are. Then, you criticize his way of fighting, saying he's too stupid, which says you're obviously out of clues to what a word "stupid" means, let alone describing an actual fighting match from Narutoverse. To complete this waste of time, I hate these kind of threads because they're made by ignorant people like you who make it so because they simply don't like the character, let alone understand them. Thank you.
Last edited by Roman; January 22, 2013 at 03:26 PM.
So, Sasuke could hardly be considered weak willed just because of his void course of actions since learning about the truth. What I'm saying is he would exactly be on an entirely different level, struggling through his past to create himself a new future, instead of clinging to his bloodstained past. That's why I brought up Naruto and Nagato issue. As stupid as it may sound, Naruto had no idea Nagato would make a move of redemption to clear his name. He just forgave him because he believed that would be what should be done in the world Jiraiya, Minato, Nagato and he himself longed for.
Again, this is not to say Sasuke lacks will power, but Naruto has always been on another level, having long been labeled as nothing but a prankster, and rise from nowhere to a great level of heroism. It's to be expected, since it's the original ninja way introduced in Part I. Takes next to nothing away from Sasuke.
Sorry, but will power is not good or evil. It is merely the amount of determination or motivation to accomplish a goal. The will to take revenge doesn't necessarily make it weaker than the will to forgive somebody. More noble, certainly. But weaker, no.
Sasuke's will for revenge and Naruto's will for forgiveness can't be used to compare their strength of will because they both wanted different things. Sasuke sought revenge down to the very core of his being. I would say he is weak willed if he was easily sway from his path. Choosing "good" vs "evil" doesn't imply you are stronger willed. They are simply fighting for different reasons. I can easily argue that Naruto is weak willed because he could not do what he needed to do, which is to kill Nagato, because of his own sense of morality. He put his entire village in jeopardy because he didn't want blood on his hands. Granted this is a manga and everything always works out perfectly for the main protagonist, but Nagato could have easily came back to destroy Konoha again.
@OP: I've always thought it was Sasuke who always kept getting rescued or helped. Naruto at least puts in effort, Sasuke just has stuff handed to him to make up for his general uselessness.
I think that's just a matter of difference in opinion. I held the will of revenge lowly, because it's the more straightforward path to take, especially if the sin that begets the idea of revenge is committed in front of your eyes, the way Itachi did. It was Itachi himself who draw that path for Sasuke. Granted, a weak willed person would not be able to follow that path, but then again, that's why I have already said Sasuke is strong willed on his own way.
You put it almost perfectly. If this wasn't a manga, the ideal world concept these characters believed or wanted to believe in would come back to haunt them in the future. In fact, that's one of the reasons Jiraiya failed or so he thought. But as this is a manga, and what we are strolling towards is the manifestation of that very ideal concept in the universe, Naruto's noble act takes him to a wholly different level.
To put it simply, let's talk about Itachi. He killed his entire clan, including his parents and I don't see it as a completely noble act. He could have aided his clansmen in the rebellion and that could be argued to be a noble act, as well. His act was neither good nor evil. He was in the gray zone from an objective standpoint. That said, by taking action either way, it was clear from the beginning that he was going to be burdened with something not everyone can shoulder on his own. It's the very same burden that made his act a lot tougher to take. Just like Naruto was never going to be able to forgive Nagato for what he did to Jiraiya, Itachi could never possibly bring himself to forgive his own self, no matter what kind of justifying reasons were there. That's my view of will power and being strong willed. Not measured by good and bad, but the toughness of the path one has to take.
But the difficultly of choosing a path is based on personal beliefs. Morality isn't inborn nor is there a universal standard. For somebody like Naruto, who's morality is bordering sainthood, it is infinitely more difficult for him to take a life than to spare one. Sasuke on the hand, do not share these beliefs. They are different, simple as that.
Indeed, it's not a concretely set concept.
But I can't think of any path else for Sasuke to take on rather than pursuing Itachi for revenge. We should take into account that he went through that fateful incident aged 6-7, not 16 like Naruto. Sasuke was just a kid with no real understanding of good or bad in the world at that time. He shared the same sainthood Naruto had a decade later, perhaps something even more sacred than that, which was childhood innocence. To be fair, he probably didn't bring his resolve together in a day or two, which would be something ridiculous. Still, that was the path drawn for him. Unlike Naruto, he chose to follow what others said him to. For instance, the Hyuuga did even worse than Sasuke, accepting either weakness (Hinata) or a cursed fate (Neji). I believe Naruto's will power is on a different level because of this reason. And I also believe that's the reason Itachi didn't want to push his own ideals to Sasuke in his final moment. Had he done so, perhaps Sasuke would come to accept his brother's last wish and act accordingly, but it wouldn't be out of his own volition. When he released his Edo Tensei body, Itachi finally freed Sasuke out of his chains. Now, whether he does good or evil from a certain perspective, Sasuke will test his own will and its power in the up and coming future.
But why should Sasuke choose a different path if revenge is what he truly wanted. That's the point. Revenge is his will, and if he had deterred from it, it would actually show a lack of strength. Sasuke also chose this on his own. People around him like Kakashi, Naruto, etc. tried to persuade him to choose otherwise and failed. Strength of will can only be measured by the determination and convictions to stand by your choices. Choosing the "good" path doesn't make your will any stronger. Anyways, I'm tired of arguing this point. We're just looking at this from a different perspective philosophically.
As for Naruto's will capable of changing people, that really depends on how we are looking at it. Realistically, I don't see it any better or more infectious than anybody else's. But if we are talking about how it can effect other characters within the manga, then yes, it is heads and shoulders above everybody because he is the main protagonist and Kishi is making him the savior of the world. He can talk no jutsu Madara into beating himself death. No contest from me there. Naruto's will is easily godlike.