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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
Naruto didn't use super powers until the war. Hell, look at how he did against the Kumo-uis while Sakura and Sai weren't able to do anything. He stopped Omoi from drawing his sword and caught Karui's sword.
You can't, at this point of the manga, accuse Naruto of having super power ups and not train but claim Sasuke trained without having super power ups. Hell, Naruto even trained to use Kyuubi's chakra after he stole it. He's trained for Sage Mode and everything associated with it, whether frog-fu or FRS, he trained for fuuton: rasengan and bein able to use fuuton, and much more.
It's seriously annoying how people accuse Sasuke of everything, but give Naruto a pass, or vice versa. Both worked hard for their power, both got free powerups (though the amount differs between the two), and both started doing or relying on the same old shit after getting said power (Susano'o, Kyuubi's chakra).
And I think by Naruto's ninjutsu being abysmal, he's saying that Naruto's repertoire is small, which I agree with. Rasengan variation doesn't count - he only has kage bunshin, rasengan, fuuton: rasengan, and FRS. What else does he have outside that, other htan summoning?
Kakashi is used to show how powerful the Akatsuki are. Plus, he dealt the killin blow to Kakuzu and managed to wound Deidara. Naruto failed to kill Nagato (out of choice though), and is useless against Tobi without help.
dude its the end of the story so of course hes gonna have these power ups its just that without them hes worthless. as a regular nin he cant do frs by himself he needs kyuubi or sage chakra and if he can he cant throw it cause he doesnt have the power boost which lets him. he needs to work on his base skills cause sage mode or kyuubi isnt permanent. you have to sit still to use sage mode which he would never get the cahnce in a battle and if someone locks the kyuubi chakra hes sooo fucked. sasuke without sharigan would still be decently ok cause he has speed, sword, lightning, fire jutsu and is a good thinker. naruto just has clones and rasengan which, again is close combat so if someone gets distance hes deadQuote:
sage mode increase you reflexes and reaction time that isnt even a fair comparison. he used it to dodge 3rd raikage one of the baddest and fastest nin ever to exist. theres no way he'd of dodged that finger spear on his ownQuote:
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; January 24, 2013 at 09:42 AM.
I don't really understand why there are people trying to classify Sage Mode and some other boosts in the same group.
Kyuubi power? I could understand. Not everyone is born with a beast inside to use its power, though, in the end, he still had to tame it before using its power effectively.
Sage Mode also needed an intense training to be mastered. He surpassed Jiraiya's mastery and earned full control over nature chakra in the end.
Sasuke's power-ups were far too worse in comparison. Not everyone has a genius Uchiha brother who awakens MS and dies for you. Amaterasu could be used instantly, without any sort of training needed, and the only downside of the MS, loss of eyesight is prevented by the very same brother's eyes.
Base Naruto and base Sasuke only faced off once and it was shown clearly that Naruto's power was superior to that of Sasuke's, which helped Sasuke made his mind to go and receive training from Orochimaru.
If the help of the power-ups are to be taken into consideration, it's Sasuke who benefited more out of them.
---------- Post added at 08:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 AM ----------
I don't think Naruto started spamming Kyuubi's chakra until the war. The only times he used it prior to the war were when he was angry, otherwise Naruto wasn't relying on it in Part II.
Naruto wouldn't need these powerups if Kishi kept consistent though. Eventually though, he'd have gotten Kyuubi's chakra whether or not the manga increased power by 100000x fold.Quote:
Naruto's still good in close range, and he can still fight without Sage or Kyuubi mode. Once again, he showed he could still fight despite being so low on chakra and not having good chakra control when he tricked and took out the Rain genins. Naruto also showed to be fast enough to keep up with Deva when even Kakashi with Sharingan couldn't land a hit on him. Naruto has shown he has good skills in base mode.
yeah but you see the rasengan coming at your face as opposed to how sauske used it, danzo beat his genjutsu no problem before so the fact that he timed and used it the way he did stands for somthingQuote:
sasukes speed is average? sakura was so shocked when they first ran into him she thought he was using drugs.Quote:
and your forgetting about these
sasuke is arguably one of the fastest nins right now the fact that he dodge raikage proves it. raikage is the fast nin( when narutos not fox powered ) and we know for a sharigan user to dodge a move they have to have the body to do it. the fact that sasuke dodged raikage means hes not only quick but his reaction time is something special too even if it was given to him by sharigan raikage dodged a point blank chakra blast from juugo and dodged AMATERASU!! a move activated by looking at someone so if sasuke dodges a blow or 2 from him thats big news
ill admit hes GOOD at base skills but again if he didnt have power ups hed be dead. his base skills are not enough to place him in the tier of level of ninja hes fighting against right now. the only thing keeping him afloat is the kyuubiQuote:
no he saw narutos improvement and felt like he wasnt doing much so he left. he became soft and wanted to get his ruthlessness back for when he fought itachiQuote:
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; January 24, 2013 at 09:59 AM.
I really don't like Naruto, he is easily the character I dislike the most in this manga. Still, I don't really see any major difference between Naruto and Sasuke, when it comes down to take away "their" power or make them look bad by saying this and that always saved/helped them.
It's too bad, that I currently have no time to be actively part in a longer discussion. I would like to write more, but it's not possible for the next 3-4 weeks.
The good thing is that Uchiha_Blood is there to represent my opinion, more or less.
So, this thread is in good hands.
Sasuke thought he wasn't progressing because he was jealous of Naruto. And he didn't think much of Naruto at that time. Even if Sasuke improved 1000x, seeing Naruto improve would still make him feel inferior, especially if Naruto beat enemies that Sasuke couldn't. Not to mention, Itachi said he was after Naruto, or at least his organization was, and that Sasuke was a waste of time. Though with Kakashi, I doubt he'd have gotten as strong as he is now.
Raikage is indeed the fastest living Shinobi by his own words. However, by the same words, he didn't use his full speed on Sasuke, as he states that the only one prior to Kyuubi mode Naruto to dodge his full speed was Minato. Not sure how to fit this in with logic, since he really should have had killer intent at that point, though. Perhaps he didn't want to one-hit kill him or didn't need to use that much power, underestimating the Sharingan.
Anyway, dodging Raikage's punch doesn't take him to high class. He still could barely keep up with Bee's swordsmanship. He isn't fast enough to blitz base mode Naruto by any means.
How is that different to Sasuke mastering Chidoris and nothing else outside the Sharingan? Or what, Gokyakuu no jutsu is comparable to Kage Bushin?
Sasuke made it this far without super power ups?Quote:
No, just no.
He has, like, 937439 Rasengans, which for us is lame, but they are still very different jutsus.
And outside Rasengans he has KB and Kuchiyose jutsus, meaning he isn't that underdeveloped.
Its not like he has Rasengan and then bam! He is automatically expected to easily manipulate every form of Rasengan there is, every Rasengan variation is ranked at least as an A rank jutsu.
Let's remember Oodama Rasengan took a lot to master, and even Jiraiya at 50 couldn't use Oodama Rasengan in Base, which Naruto can do.
Pretty sure just about everyone without Kamui is useless against Obito
sick Itachi is faster.
Bee is faster.
A is faster.
Yondaime is faster.
Madara is faster.
Gai is faster.
Obito is faster.
Kabutomaru is faster.
He's in the top 10 surely, but on the very bottom imo.
And that wasn't Sakura believing he was on drugs, it was an analysis made by Sakura ( by that time a very competent medic, superior to Chiyo and Sasori ) and Tsunade, so yeah, pretty sure Sasuke was on drugs
The rasengan variations he's used in Sage Mode and Kyuubi Chakra mode aren't different, they're still rasengan. They work different, just have different power. Fuuton: rasengan, adn FRS are the only rasengan variants I consider different from rasengan, since they are actually different.
oh yeah sasuke gets his ass kicked many times man but still its the fact that he can hold out on his own to an extent before popping off these abilities. he assess' the situation and uses his ms abilities accordingly like keeping danzo at a distance, using sussanno and amaterasu as a shield against raikage. naruto just goes straight for kyuubi or sage mode and still needs saving sometimes. atleast sasuke gets his ass demolished before he gets saved or starts spammingQuote:
i agree completely. no matter how much sasuke was improving naruto was catching up to him and the battle of the roof proved that. to get the power sasuke was searching for you have to be ruthless and cut all ties to seek absolute power, staying in konoha made him soft and develop feelings which he didnt need. who else to train under than a man you dont trust, you'll always be on edge only improving your skills that much moreQuote:
yeah but thats the thing its his full speed! naruto need kyuubi moe to take his full speed and even when he wasnt going full speed he still matched narutoQuote:
read what tsunade said, ''no naruto its amazing your matching HIS SPEED'' so eveen if he wasnt going full speed he's still deadly regardless so sasuke dodging him is a ffeat, ANYONE who can dodge him is impressive and sasuke did it without the need for kyuubi and to say raikage wasnt going with killer intent is retarded he thought sasuke killed bee lol or are you forgetting this
even when hes not powered up to zetsu, a member of akatsuki, hes fast. so again to say sasuke dodging him charged isnt impressive is ridiculous seeing as he caught zetsu off guard with a hand to his throat
and yet konan was able to find away around obitos abilities. he got hit by danzos guards had they known what he can do and how his powers work itd be diffferent. kakashi and narutos combo could be done without naruto needing kyuubi or sage mode. madara is an exception cause well you know...the meteors and stuff but obito is a different story, regular nin have been able to put a hand on him and since they know exactly how his powers work they should be laying hands all over him...if kakashi stayed in the other realm and/or used raikiri obito would be defenseless and a sitting duck, thats what i mean. theres a way around everyone and madaras weakness is obito so if they take him out the can all focus madara and theres no way they wouldnt be able to take him with all those nin super foxified but of course plot stupidityQuote:
---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------
because they arent the same abilities, they may be in the same element but that doesnt mean theyre the same. all of sasukes jutsus are used in different ways, he has his long distance and close range fire moves, same applies to lightning jutsu. naruto is the same rasengan coming in your face, sasuke can use different jutsu and apply them in different ways naruto always has to come up and hit you and thats where his major battle flaw is if you can dodge frs or can make a shield of some sort than youre generally fine if you have the chakra capacity to face naruto if hes not super saiyanQuote:
chakra mode naruto is a power up therefore not his own strengthQuote:
bee isnt faster his ffighting style is just unpredictable and cant be read
youre really comparing a and minato? really? the two fastest people in existence? thats not even fair
gai is faster ill admit
we havent seen obito do anything speedy outside kamui
kabutomaru is franken ninja who stole the dna of like 50 ninja to augment his strength -.-
kakashi is there?Quote:
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; January 24, 2013 at 11:11 AM.
Naruto can hold his own as well. As mentioned, he was able to defend against Deva when SHaringan Kakashi couldn't hit him. He was also able to take on Karui and Omoi at the same time despite Sakura and Sai getting in the way. Naruto has consistently shown he can perform in base mode, like I said, until the war happened. Both he and Sasuke have done well in base mode before relying on their powerups.
Though, Naruto is the one with free haxxed powerups that come at no cost. Still though, he doesn't get enough credit in base mode or on his own.
Same with the KB combo, hell in the forest of death Kabuto was surprised Naruto could keep up the Henge with his clones.
Henge, a D rank jutsu
All are close-range Chidori variations.
Same with Gokyakuu, Goryakuu and Hosenka, all three are long-ranged Katons with different power. Not different at all from Naruto's Rasengan spammage.
Chakra Mode Naruto is a power up Naruto earned by defeating Kyuubi, therefore his own strenghtQuote:
It can't be read because its too fast, like Itachi's handseal speed.
Why its not fair? They don't have special Gekkei Kenkais that made them the fastest ninjas or a special eye that lets them predict the opponent's movements
S/T jutsus > Speed pretty much, Obito could react just fine to Naruto's Bijuu Mode, which is way above Sasuke's speed.
So? Good for him since he's that much a genius. And he was also responsible for Sasuke's heightened abilities if I'm not wrong
Lastly Itachi and Madara, of course.
I'm pretty sure Kakashi has KamuiQuote:
---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------
Kabuto's power up could be casted aside, but I disagree with your assessment about Bee. He may not be quite as fast as Raikage, but he's still one of the fastest portrayed. That odd fighting style is that much effective because Bee can make those movements in succession with unreal speed.
EMS is not free, despite what people say.
Oodama rasengan isn't as difficult considering Naruto just needs to keep his extra clone with him and holding the rasengan. It's still the same as rasengan, but bigger.
Probably because of henge no jutsu being combined with kage bunshin, or Naruto being dangerously low on chakra.