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Thread: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

  1. #166
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by samsiufan View Post
    I agree with most of this and thanks for the explanation. It may be semantics - However I still don't think SM or Naural energy modifies chakra...It enhances/augments it....as explained here:

    http://www.mangapanda.com/93-414-11/...apter-409.html

    To me, modification is what Naruto did in the last chapter. Changing the Kyuubi chakra to match the chakra type of the different Nins. That is modification.
    It does not enhance the chakra, it modifies it completely. Normal chakra is two parts. Physical Energy and Spititual Energy. Sage Chakra is three parts. The aforementioned two and natural energy.

    Technically speaking, he is modifying his chakra by adding Natural Energy to it. The only difference between that and what he is doing with the Kyuubi chakra now is he is using different ingredients for different purposes, it is all still a balancing act. Technically speaking, the only way to enhance something is to in fact modify it somehow.

    Naruto's ability to modify his chakra into Sage Chakra allows him to go into Sage Mode, which in turn enhances his natural abilities, and augments his techniques, by making them more powerful and changing how they can be used. (example, being able to throw a more powerful version of FRS).
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  2. #167
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    It does not enhance the chakra, it modifies it completely. Normal chakra is two parts. Physical Energy and Spititual Energy. Sage Chakra is three parts. The aforementioned two and natural energy.

    Technically speaking, he is modifying his chakra by adding Natural Energy to it. The only difference between that and what he is doing with the Kyuubi chakra now is he is using different ingredients for different purposes, it is all still a balancing act. Technically speaking, the only way to enhance something is to in fact modify it somehow.

    Naruto's ability to modify his chakra into Sage Chakra allows him to go into Sage Mode, which in turn enhances his natural abilities, and augments his techniques, by making them more powerful and changing how they can be used. (example, being able to throw a more powerful version of FRS).
    As I said - semantics....Naruto's basic/core chakra signature does not change (if it did, it will be a mod). The addition of natural energy makes it stonger or more potent and therefore enhancing any skill or tech that is chakra dependent.... I am glad to give in though...
    Focus on your circle of influence and not your circle of concern
    Jiraiya: Right, I need a title for the next book..Ah...Got it....
    THE TALE OF UZIMAKI NARUTO SASUKE
    About Pain: Yahiko provides the ideals and Nagato is the means

  3. #168
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by RomeCity View Post
    "where does Sasuke's hate comes from", that was the other part of this topic right? how about we discuss that....

    i think it comes from his whole family being killed by the leaf in whatever shape or fashion
    nah i mean the hate people have for sasuke lol i used to work in sales so i can explain it form a salesman point of view.

    naruto, is a one trick pony while sasuke is always doing new things. although narutos rasengan variations are different, they are still at the end of the day a rasengan.

    '' a rose by any other name is still a rose''

    doesnt matter if its a regular rasengan, a super one or a wind one at the end of the day its still a rasengan. sasuke has a lot of fire and lightning jutsu and his fights are new
    every time while naruto wins win the same move and almost the exact same frames


    naruto vs itachi - http://www.mangareader.net/93-266-1/...apter-261.html
    naruto vs kakuza - http://www.mangareader.net/93-346-10...apter-341.html
    naruto vs pain - http://www.mangareader.net/93-447-18...apter-442.html
    naruto vs kyuubi - http://www.mangareader.net/93-53820-...apter-499.html
    naruto vs obito - http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/598/15

    to keep peoples attention you have to be new and inventive. although the rasengan and its variants are sick, its always gonna be naruto running up in your face and hitting you with it, which makes his fights boring and predictable.

    sasuke has been a genius fighter since part one, he always shows a new move every fight and always wins in a new way. reading a sasuke fight is fun and usually more exciting cause you never know what hes gonna do next.

    naruto spams rasengan throughout his fights and it gets old and repetitive after a while, but sasuke does shit like kirin and has a multitude of jutsu which he knows how to use properly. like when facing deidara, he sacrificed a wing to land an impressive hit and make him land on his own mines.

    think of it like this, what would you rather see? someone who does the same trick with just a different label or costume or someone who always keeps you guessing?

    im not really a fan of sasuke i mean he is narutos rival so it makes sense for him to be doing all these things, its just naruto isnt really meeting the bar in a way which people expected and at one point sasuke had a far more interesting story and fights than naruto so i guess it pissed people off to see sasuke progressing and battling like he did while naruto kinda stayed the same idiot.

    naruto is supposed to be the main character but his rival is cooler than him lol so i think that pissed off a lot of fans of naruto. again im not that big of a sasuke fan but ill take seeing kirin over a rasengan any day, but hey thats just me lol people generally judge by appearances so sasuke using a new move and getting a new outfit every fight while naruto was left in the dark and even i can admit at one point i was furious about sasuke being as strong as he was but wever naruto is portrayed as an idiot so its not his fault, i learned to accept it and enjoy his battles cause they are nice fights i cant lie

    i just dont understand why he cant be social retarded and a brilliant fighter and strategist like other dumb, lovable characters like goku and gon? hes shown to be smart but its only for a brief fight and then he never does it again. thats what pisses me off most about narutos character. its like every fight he takes 2 steps forward in talent and skill just to get pushed back 3 right after. hes like a goldfish he can only remember things for like 3 seconds and forgets all about them which is why i dont understand why kishi is making him this way hes shown to learn through physical means instead of reading and such so why not throw him into a kumite and let him crawl his way out? lol

    p.s for those who dont know what a kumite is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodsport_%28film%29

    id love to see naruto kicking people like JCVD lmfao
    Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 01, 2013 at 11:12 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    I dislike Naruto because he's short of one too many marbles for my liking. On the other hand, I read the damn manga for Sasuke. His demeanor is relateable for me, and his sentiments on nationalism as well. I never value country or nation; these concepts - together with religion - should be obsolete. Hence the likeness.

    Honestly, I don't get the hate for this guy as the majority of people are excruciatingly selfish and cruel, so the un-relateable factors logic is a barrel of laughs. At least he is selfless in regards to his family, where this gushing sentiment should matter.
    Last edited by shahdan; February 03, 2013 at 02:13 PM.

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Prince Sasuke's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I dislike Naruto because he's short of one too many marbles for my liking. On the other hand, I read the damn manga for Sasuke. His demeanor is relateable for me, and his sentiments on nationalism as well. I never value country or nation; these concepts - together with religion - should be obsolete. Hence the likeness.

    Honestly, I don't get the hate for this guy as the majority of people are excruciatingly selfish and cruel, so the un-relateable factors logic is a barrel of laughs. At least he is selfless in regards to his family, where this gushing sentiment should matter.
    Naruto is your average shounen Hero. Sasuke is not liked because he is the opposite of Naruto.

  7. #171
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    ^ So an average man hogs on cliches? That's quite depressing, but that explains this guy's popularity.

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  9. #172
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I dislike Naruto because he's short of one too many marbles for my liking. On the other hand, I read the damn manga for Sasuke. His demeanor is relateable for me, and his sentiments on nationalism as well. I never value country or nation; these concepts - together with religion - should be obsolete. Hence the likeness.

    Honestly, I don't get the hate for this guy as the majority of people are excruciatingly selfish and cruel, so the un-relateable factors logic is a barrel of laughs. At least he is selfless in regards to his family, where this gushing sentiment should matter.
    Many people consider the concept of family laughable, that family are people you are have to love, and that friends, country, religion, etc. are the things and people you choose to love.

    And while I agree that he is certainly hated too much, he's been irrational, selfish, and quite frankly stupid in much of what he is done. Granted, he's dealt with enough trauma to turn most people insane, but even still, wanting to kill innocent people is both irrational and stupid.

    IMO, Sasuke before he killed his brother, and Sasuke right after Itachi cancelled Edo Tensei was the Sasuke I liked a lot, the good Sasuke. And while I still liked him for all the in between, it was exactly easy to support his decisions.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  11. #173
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Many people consider the concept of family laughable, that family are people you are have to love, and that friends, country, religion, etc. are the things and people you choose to love.

    And while I agree that he is certainly hated too much, he's been irrational, selfish, and quite frankly stupid in much of what he is done. Granted, he's dealt with enough trauma to turn most people insane, but even still, wanting to kill innocent people is both irrational and stupid.

    IMO, Sasuke before he killed his brother, and Sasuke right after Itachi cancelled Edo Tensei was the Sasuke I liked a lot, the good Sasuke. And while I still liked him for all the in between, it was exactly easy to support his decisions.
    Point taken, but if people consider family to be something you have to love, then Patriotism and Religion are nothing more than brain-washing tools, and far more redundant at that. Henceforth, people are only choosing to have mundane, stereotypical roles in life.

    The rest of your post is a matter of opinion. I don't believe Sasuke has killed a single person out of stupidity.
    Last edited by shahdan; February 03, 2013 at 03:56 PM.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Point taken, but if people consider family to be something you have to love, then Patriotism and Religion are nothing more than brain-washing tools, and far more redundant at that. Henceforth, people are only choosing to have mundane, stereotypical roles in life.
    All stereotypes are based in truth. I have ask what wouldn't be a mundane and stereotypical role in life in your opinion?

    You could argue that Sasuke had been brainwashed by his own notion that his family is worth more than the lives of everyone in Konoha. His rationality has only returned recently now that he's looking for answers.

    Sasuke's stupidity doesn't have to do with killing, but with taking Obtio's words for truth without evidence, and for a string of rash and dumb decisions when he decided to invade the Kage summit with only 2 marginally powerful allies and a sensor. Had Tobi and Zetsu not been there he would have died.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    ^ That discussion is not meant for this thread. Perhaps if you make one in general section, I might respond.

    I doubt his parents brainwashed him with regular notion of this sort: "Son, we are more important than Konoha. You hear?" Where as the constant 'will of fire' and Shinobi code mantra is clear brainwashing.

    Sasuke never invaded the summit, he infiltrated it. No one was even aware he was there. He obviously planned to strike Danzo down once he was done with the political discussion. His position was given away by Obito himself. Despite all this, Sasuke did exceedingly well against all the Kages - save for Onoki - who took turns with their Jounins against him. Gaara attacked Sasuke with three high level Jounins, two of them were his own siblings/body guards. Let's not throw these things out of the window.

    Which is again your opinion. You believe goodness - no matter how misplaced it maybe - is somehow linked with intelligence. I don't think in this regard at all. Had Konoho actually valued peoples' lives, they wouldn't be paying the price now, same is the scenario with other nations.

  14. #176
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    ^ That discussion is not meant for this thread. Perhaps if you make one in general section, I might respond.

    I doubt his parents brainwashed him with regular notion of this sort: "Son, we are more important than Konoha. You hear?" Where as the constant 'will of fire' and Shinobi code mantra is clear brainwashing.

    Sasuke never invaded the summit, he infiltrated it. No one was even aware he was there. He obviously planned to strike Danzo down once he was done with the political discussion. His position was given away by Obito himself. Despite all this, Sasuke did exceedingly well against all the Kages - save for Onoki - who took turns with their Jounins against him. Gaara attacked Sasuke with three high level Jounins, two of them were his own siblings/body guards. Let's not throw these things out of the window.

    Which is again your opinion. You believe goodness - no matter how misplaced it maybe - is somehow linked with intelligence. I don't think in this regard at all. Had Konoho actually valued peoples' lives, they wouldn't be paying the price now, same is the scenario with other nations.
    Infiltrate or invade. Semantics. He went there and didn't leave when he should have. His hatred blinded him and nearly got him killed. He admitted his inferiority to Orochimaru and knew only to attack him when sick, and yet he thought it was a good idea to stick around and fight 5 Kages and there body guards? That is stupidity at it's finest.

    And Sasuke was brainwashed by himself. He believes himself and his clan to be superior to all others, when that clearly isn't the case.

    And I do not believe goodness is linked to intelligence. I simply believe Sasuke's hatred, and his overwhelming Pride have blinded him to the point where his intelligence and rationality doesn't shine through.

    IMO, Konoha isn't at fault for The Uchiha massacre, a select few people, some Uchiha included, are at fault. Sasuke's idea to destroy all of Konoha for the misdeeds of a few is highly irrational and stupid, and that has nothing to do with good or evil.

    As for the price everyone is paying now, that has to do with valuing people's lives. Madara's goals make no sense. He wants to conquer the world to end fighting, the one thing he enjoys. And Obito is a cry baby moron who allowed the words of the crypt keeper to change him from a good person into a dumb ass.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    ^ I have never even heard of self-brain-washing. What are you cooking up, exactly? Brain-washing is always through external factors not internally motivated ideals.

    No, it isn't semantics. Shinobis are taught to infiltrate and complete their missions, or are you forgetting the mission codes their teachers preached them through out the course of the exams? His tactic was reasonable and a very general ninja tactic; infiltrate, evaluate, and strike. Had Zetsu not given his position away, he wouldn't have been put in such an impossible situation.

    Hate and Pride are the most powerful driving forces of humanity, to associate them casually with stupidity of all the things is childish. At base level, they underscore all human desires and factors that govern perseverance and survival. Competition, the desire to exceed, to do better than others etc all stem from hate or disliking , self-respect or pride in one way or another.

    Your opinion. How many lives have been destroyed for Konoha's peace and the expansion of its infinitely stretchable 'will of fire'? If so many lives are lost for a nation's own agendas, it should be expunged from the face of the earth. You are only offering a highly polemic and lopsided view to the whole equation. Sasuke is evil only from the perceptive of Konoha, not from the perceptive of those who have been wronged by their nationalism.

    Take both views into consideration.

    I believe no one here is talking about Madara or Obito, but in a way, I do agree with their sentiments on peace, that only exists in fairy tails where Unicorns fart rainbows and stuff, bunnies run everywhere, and people always sing.

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  17. #178
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    ^ I have never even heard of self-brain-washing. What are you cooking up, exactly? Brain-washing is always through external factors not internally motivated ideals.

    No, it isn't semantics. Shinobis are taught to infiltrate and complete their missions, or are you forgetting the mission codes their teachers preached them through out the course of the exams? His tactic was reasonable and a very general ninja tactic; infiltrate, evaluate, and strike. Had Zetsu not given his position away, he wouldn't have been put in such an impossible situation.

    Hate and Pride are the most powerful driving forces of humanity, to associate them casually with stupidity of all the things is childish. At base level, they underscore all human desires and factors that govern perseverance and survival. Competition, the desire to exceed, to do better than others etc all stem from hate or disliking , self-respect or pride in one way or another.

    Your opinion. How many lives have been destroyed for Konoha's peace and the expansion of its infinitely stretchable 'will of fire'? If so many lives are lost for a nation's own agendas, it should be expunged from the face of the earth. You are only offering a highly polemic and lopsided view to the whole equation. Sasuke is evil only from the perceptive of Konoha, not from the perceptive of those who have been wronged by their nationalism.

    Take both views into consideration.

    I believe no one here is talking about Madara or Obito, but in a way, I do agree with their sentiments on peace, that only exists in fairy tails where Unicorns fart rainbows and stuff, bunnies run everywhere, and people always sing.
    Then brain washing isn't the right word. Point is he has the notion that the Uchiha Clan is some how so much greater than everyone else, despite the fact he's gotten his as handed to him by plenty of non-Uchiha's before.

    The fact that Zetsu put him in that situation means he should have aborted what he was doing. He lost the element of surprise and was hopelessly out numbered and out gunned. Shinobi's aren't suicidal, and what he attempted was just that. He should have split after fighting Gaara and A, he was already injured, already tired, and he lost the element of surprise.

    Hating people who've never hurt you and being so prideful that you are blinded and ignore reason and reality is stupid. People who can't be reasoned with because they refuse to change their views are stupid, or more precisely ignorant.

    If hate and pride were the most powerful driving forces of humanity we'd have already blown ourselves back into the stone age. Are they strong? Of course they are. But humanity's empathy for others, peoples restraint from acting on their hate, love in general, and our ability to change have nothing to do with pride or hate. Need examples?

    The civil rights movement. Many people were conditioned to hate others, and then they were conditioned to not hate others. Do racists, and bigots still exist? Of course they do, but things have changed, the "hate" was overwhelmed by stronger forces.

    When murderers turn to religion. I like you am not fond of religion, but you can't deny the fact that it has indeed turned hateful people into gentle, kinder people. (Of course it's also done the opposite).

    And no, that isn't my opinion so don't put words in my mouth.

    You speak of Nationalism and Konoha as if the actions and views of a few ninja from Konoha reflect those of the masses. Sasuke's lopsided view that the entire population should suffer for the actions of a few is childish and ignorant. Should those responsible for the Uchiha massacre be brought to justice? Of course, but children like Kurneai's child should not suffer for things that happened over a decade before they were born. If you think that child should be punished you are a sad person I'm sorry to say.

    I agree that everlasting peace does not exist. However, tolerance can exist. People can tolerate each other, and while everlasting peace won't happen, periods of peace, and peace between certain people can happen. There will always be those who hate one another, however as history has shown us, there are fewer people who hate one another than those who can get along. Problem is, it only takes a few people to fuck up things for the majority. But, so long as people are around to fight the good fight, those people can't change the whole world.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    ^ To those who love their family/kith and kin or clans, they do hold this notion which stems from pride in ones lineage. There is nothing wrong with that, and let's face it, the Uchihas are one of the two most powerful clans in Konoha, and possibly the whole ninja world.

    Now I don't get you. He was given away and almost immediately found out. How do you 'abort' exactly, when a kage along with his two bodyguards show up and take turns to eliminate you? It's only common sense, that unless he didn't take care of the potential threats, there was no escaping. He warned the Samurai not to get involved, Mei meddled for no reason, Gaara was never attacked. When he posed no threat to anyone of them, they never should have intervened. Isn't this the way Shinobi world goes? All nations terrorizing one another, but none comes forward to help? All of them should have practiced this there.

    You are quite narrow-minded then, as the majority don't alter their perceptions on the world, as they are based on their experiences, and experiences make a man. There is nothing even remotely stupid about it. Humanity's empathy? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off in the corner. You live on Plant earth, right, or is it some far off fairy tale land? Because where I live, it's a dog eat dog world, corruption is sky-rocketing along with the crime rates, people are inhumanly self-centered and opportunistic. Heck, your own nation has mowed down millions for natural resources. Let's not bring 'empathy' into the equation here, when so so few have it, and that's the reason why the world is where it is today.

    Religion is nothing but another brain-washing tool for individuals and its main use is just as a social pool for gathering masses for a common cause. It isn't much different than Patriotism at its crux. You hide behind pretty words, I talk about reality. I tend to put myself in a character's shoes before I analyze it, and believe me, I would've rent Konoha asunder if someone had done this to my family. You say Kuranei's child shouldn't suffer? Why were innocent children massacred in Uchiha clan? They had nothing to do with the politics?

    Do I condone it? No. Do I consider this a realistic turn of events? Yes, I do. Who would be responsible for Konoha's demise then? No one but Konoha themselves. If you don't want a repercussion, don't ignite a fire. Konoha did exactly that when they destroyed pein's village. Did the villagers stop their nation from destroying the homes of innocent children who were left orphaned by the war? No, they didn't. They reaped the benefits of Konoha's rise. They are equally responsible for it. You can go ahead and call me a sad individual, but that is just the way it is. Any nation that supports wars are just as responsible as the government is. If you absolve them of their crime, then it's not me who is a sad individual.

    Again pal, where do you live? It's the other way around. There are few who are actually tolerant, and the majority just doesn't ever get along, and fascism, Patriotism, and religion are at the heart of it. As long as these exist, man-kind will always be stuck in stone age, no matter how much they 'pretend' to have evolved. We are still base human beings and that's just despondent in my view.

    P.s: I hope you don't think I am attacking you. This is just a discussion. Cheers.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Why Naruto is a broken main character/ where Sasuke's hate comes from

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    ^ To those who love their family/kith and kin or clans, they do hold this notion which stems from pride in ones lineage. There is nothing wrong with that, and let's face it, the Uchihas are one of the two most powerful clans in Konoha, and possibly the whole ninja world.
    Having pride is one thing. Thinking you are so superior to everyone else on the planet that they should grovel at your feet is another thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Now I don't get you. He was given away and almost immediately found out. How do you 'abort' exactly, when a kage along with his two bodyguards show up and take turns to eliminate you? It's only common sense, that unless he didn't take care of the potential threats, there was no escaping. He warned the Samurai not to get involved, Mei meddled for no reason, Gaara was never attacked. When he posed no threat to anyone of them, they never should have intervened. Isn't this the way Shinobi world goes? All nations terrorizing one another, but none comes forward to help? All of them should have practiced this there.
    He had buried the Raikage and Gaara under rubble and then intentionally went after other people that weren't looking for him. That was the perfect opportunity to escape and you know it. They couldn't do shit to stop him from leaving, they didn't even get to the other Kages until Obito showed up.

    He can summon a Hawk and fly away, pretty simple solution. The fact that he was an intruder inside this conference and was already on the shit list of two villages means that the other people present were going to hunt him down as an act of good faith. Not to mention, as a missing-nin he has a price on his head.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    You are quite narrow-minded then, as the majority don't alter their perceptions on the world, as they are based on their experiences, and experiences make a man. There is nothing even remotely stupid about it. Humanity's empathy? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off in the corner. You live on Plant earth, right, or is it some far off fairy tale land? Because where I live, it's a dog eat dog world, corruption is sky-rocketing along with the crime rates, people are inhumanly self-centered and opportunistic. Heck, your own nation has mowed down millions for natural resources. Let's not bring 'empathy' into the equation here, when so so few have it, and that's the reason why the world is where it is today.
    I am hardly narrow minded, although you may be. Experiences make a man as you say, good and bad. People change, I've seen it first hand so just because people in your corner of the world refuse to change doesn't mean others don't.

    And I agree with what you are saying, but if you have any sense of history you would realize we have made loads of progress. If we didn't, half the world would be enslaved by about 10 countries similar to how it was in the 19th century.

    The problem in the world today is that the ruling powers control the masses and impose their wills on them, similar to what happened with the rulers of Konoha and the Uchiha clan. The views and actions of a few do not reflect those of the majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Religion is nothing but another brain-washing tool for individuals and its main use is just as a social pool for gathering masses for a common cause. It isn't much different than Patriotism at its crux. You hide behind pretty words, I talk about reality. I tend to put myself in a character's shoes before I analyze it, and believe me, I would've rent Konoha asunder if someone had done this to my family. You say Kuranei's child shouldn't suffer? Why were innocent children massacred in Uchiha clan? They had nothing to do with the politics?
    Your logic is terrible. You want to make one innocent suffer just because another did? You claim the world is a dog eat dog place and yet with your logic it would remain that way as you seem to think furthering senseless acts of violence somehow makes things better.

    As far as region and patriotism go I agree to a certain extent. And say you speak of reality but you only see things in "your reality". Step out of your own shoes for a moment and place them in another persons like you say you do.

    People deserve to be punished for what happened to the Uchiha Clan, but only the people who are actually guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Do I condone it? No. Do I consider this a realistic turn of events? Yes, I do. Who would be responsible for Konoha's demise then? No one but Konoha themselves. If you don't want a repercussion, don't ignite a fire. Konoha did exactly that when they destroyed pein's village. Did the villagers stop their nation from destroying the homes of innocent children who were left orphaned by the war? No, they didn't. They reaped the benefits of Konoha's rise. They are equally responsible for it. You can go ahead and call me a sad individual, but that is just the way it is. Any nation that supports wars are just as responsible as the government is. If you absolve them of their crime, then it's not me who is a sad individual.
    You claim to be "in touch with reality" yet don't understand how the real world, or Naruto's works in the sense that the "little people" aren't the guilty ones. A nation can't simply disagree with it's government and over throw it like in the past. Governements in our world and Naruto's world are far too powerful. My own country is a democratic country, but our process is a joke. We get to choose between two shitty candidates, for president. Our system of checks and balances also makes it nearly impossible for full scale change. Half our country disagrees with 90% of our military actions and yet no one can really do a god damned thing about it.

    The Uchiha clan tried a coup and they were wiped out before they event attempted it. You blame villagers, who have nothing to do with the affairs of shinobi for the decisions made by a few people and carried out by those who are killed if orders aren't followed?


    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Again pal, where do you live? It's the other way around. There are few who are actually tolerant, and the majority just doesn't ever get along, and fascism, Patriotism, and religion are at the heart of it. As long as these exist, man-kind will always be stuck in stone age, no matter how much they 'pretend' to have evolved. We are still base human beings and that's just despondent in my view.
    The fact of the matter is the majority just don't give a shit, and they are in fact tolerant. If they weren't, how did a Black President get voted into office less than 200 years after slavery was abolished in my country? Obviously the white population here changed enough to elect him, as more white people of European descent voted for him than any other population.

    Change is generational. Many people refuse to change their ways out of ignorance, but the truth is those kinds of people are in fewer number today. New generations are far more intelligent than the old one's. Want an example? Religion is becoming less and less popular all over the world. So is Patriotism and Nationalism. New generations are more open to change than ever before.

    The problem though, is even with generation change, and with the majority of younger generations being tolerant, the minority in control is from older generations who are less tolerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    P.s: I hope you don't think I am attacking you. This is just a discussion. Cheers.
    I know you aren't attacking me, but you have quite the self righteous view of the world and me simply because I'm American. I don't mean that as a slight, but while I certainly share many of your beliefs, I don't quite share the sentiment that the world is as shitty as you seem to think. You shit on religion, nationalism, patriotism, etc. I ask, what is it you actually care about?

    Are humans at their core greedy, selfish, angry, vengeful, and out for themselves? Yes.

    But, there are two sides to every coin. People are also selfless, compassionate, happy, and show empathy.

    And in between those two spectrum people are tolerant. People are understanding. They have self control.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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