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Thread: Bleach 525 Discussion

  1. #271
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sky Render's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    If you are against characters being more powerful than pther characters... have you considered that maybe shonen is not for you?

    So what if Kenpachi turns out to be stronger than anybody but Kyoraku and whatnot? Yamamoto was above everyone else and that didn't bother anybody.

    Of course, all this will just vanish onto thin air after the training arc.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    If you are against characters being more powerful than pther characters... have you considered that maybe shonen is not for you?

    So what if Kenpachi turns out to be stronger than anybody but Kyoraku and whatnot? Yamamoto was above everyone else and that didn't bother anybody.

    Of course, all this will just vanish onto thin air after the training arc.
    That's a bold comparison. Yamamoto trained for God knows how many years and he was probably at least 3,000 years old when he died. Plus, he had mastered all known Shinigami arts; Hakuda, Kido, Zanjutsu and Hoho.
    Kenpachi doesn't have a Bankai, doesn't know his Shikai's name yet, has no clue about Kido, Zanjutsu or Hakuda. If he goes from a reiatsu monster to the strongest character all of a sudden, that bothers me.

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  4. #273
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member River_Capulet's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    If you are against characters being more powerful than pther characters... have you considered that maybe shonen is not for you?

    So what if Kenpachi turns out to be stronger than anybody but Kyoraku and whatnot? Yamamoto was above everyone else and that didn't bother anybody.

    Of course, all this will just vanish onto thin air after the training arc.
    I'm fine with one char being stronger than the other char if he/she has rightfully earned that power (like through training). A kid being naturaly more powerful than one of the strongest captains is different from an ancient shinigami that trained for milenia and has mastered all the shinigami arts.

    By doing this, Zaraki made training seems pointless. I only respect does who trained hard to attain their power, not those who are given power. Before, I thought Zaraki got his power from years of experience looking for strong opponents outside of Seireitei. But it turns out he was born strong. That bothers me greatly because the other captains trained for hundreds and thousands of years to earn the power they possess, which turns out to be less than that of Zaraki. Ichigo and co has already humiliated Ss for their massive power ups within a short time, now one captain of SS itself is gonna do the same thing. I never liked Ichigo's massive power boost, but he got his protagonist-ish so it's understandable.

    In short, Zaraki was given that power, he didn't rightfully earn it as far as I see. Unless it is later proven that that he had been through hell to achieve that power, I'm utterly dissapointed
    Last edited by River_Capulet; February 02, 2013 at 11:51 AM.

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  6. #274
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member g0dzax's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    I'm betting Zaraki's past will be revealed and his past will be something akin to Nagato's : he witnessed some weird shit that greatly disturbed him and began killing everything and everyone around him...yet still,we don't know from where he got all this power.To be honest,I find it a bit strange that a kid from Rukongai was stronger than a captain(actually Unohana) without any proper traini.Yet we will probably get an explanation to this.Just wait a few more chapters and then decide if Zaraki's freakish reiatsu is a bad thing or not.

  7. #275
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Interesting idea. Your profile pic made me realize another thing I'm worried about now. I hope Kenpachi isn't going to reach a level where he can make scrubs out of the Royal Guard. I predict that Kenpachi and Kirinji will end up fighting each other at some point in the manga, and I would love to see that but I would want it to be a real fight too and not a cop out. Kenpachi admires Yachiru, whereas Kirinji seems to think rather lowly of her now, plus he taught her the techniques that Kenpachi hates, so I could see Kirinji really pissing off Kenpachi, which would be interesting to see. Kenpachi fighting someone just because he pisses him off, although if the two ever did fight I suspect there would be a much bigger reason than that.
    Just realised I misread your earlier post, so the first 2/3rds of my reply wasn't really a reply, lol. Still stand by what I was saying though.

    But yeah, I'm also hoping the RG won't get added to the list of people Zaraki can stomp over. But I don't think Unohanas statement about being "stronger than anyone" included Yamamoto; given his status amongst the G13, I think any statements about power mean "except for Yamamoto" as a matter of course. So I reckon Zaraki can be above Unohana and still well below Yama. There may be a wide margin between Yama and Zaraki and the RG could fit anywhere between them. In fact, one or two of them may even be beyond Yama for all we know. So for now I'm inclined to believe the RG are still at the top.

    Although, there are Central 46's ominous words about how Zaraki would be unstoppable before the G13 at full potential. Which would put him alone on a similar status as the RG who were also called stronger than the G13 between the 5 of them. But I assume that would be reading too much into a simple statement.

    Zaraki and Kirinji's shared connection to Yachiru is interesting actually and I do wonder if anything might come of it. I can't see a proper battle breaking out between them, at least not without a major reason, like you said. But yeah, I can see them getting cheeky with each other. Kirinji has a pretty rude and aggressive nature about him not unlike Zaraki, so they could be quite entertaining together.

    ---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    If you are against characters being more powerful than pther characters... have you considered that maybe shonen is not for you?

    So what if Kenpachi turns out to be stronger than anybody but Kyoraku and whatnot? Yamamoto was above everyone else and that didn't bother anybody.

    Of course, all this will just vanish onto thin air after the training arc.
    Well, if he's above Unohana it's fairly safe to assume he's also above Shunsui. Although Shunsui's abilities could prove to be tricky for someone with nothing but raw power to them and the same can be said of Unohana without having seen what Minazuki actually does.

    Anyway, the problem with Zaraki being this powerful... There were 2 ways to go with Zaraki's growth. Either to increase his power, or to have him learn how to properly use the power he had. The latter could have made him a more interesting fighter to watch, using technique and actual skill and what have you. As it is, he's now fit to carry on doing what he's always done - fight, hold back, decide it's time to get stronger, do so, slash his opponent down the middle, "that was fun, bye". Except for in the case of those weaker than him, the list of which has just become longer, who he'll just one shot like he did Giriko. It's exactly the same as before.

    As I said earlier though, there is at least the potential for his character to develop in some way from this. If he's really that powerful now, he can't hold back the way he used to to enjoy fights. I'm kind of interested to see how he handles that (unless he just gets a new eyepatch, in which case it's back to the status quo I guess)

  8. #276
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    I'm still vague on the matter of Zaraki being stronger or weaker then the RG, it depends on how this all develops, however I mostly also lean towards the RG being stronger than Zaraki's potential.

    On the matter of Unohana dying, this page caught my attention..
    http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/28879673/18
    She doesn't have to die, it's more simple than what Shunsei or many people, including me assumed, Zaraki only has to surpass her, simple as that, nothing more to add to it.
    Zaraki most surpass her, in order to reach "Higher Heights", that could also even mean shikai and bankai.

    So she does not "have to die" for this to happen, Zaraki only needs to feel a clear and strong victory, that he has surpassed her! So that's what the whole fighting is all about, and it actually makes a whole lot of sense.

    However, I'm not ready to see Unuhana die, especially not this soon learning so dramatically much about her, we haven't even seen her full shikai potential or bankai to boot, no less it would contribute to make Bleach more sad.
    Don't get me wrong, I want the natural feeling in Bleach too, that people can die, but in the current manga settings, it feels unnatural and wrong if she did die, it's just not how it was made out to be from the get go of the manga.

    If she dies, then I got some serious problems with Bleach, Yama was logical, and justiciable, however she can't die too, it would not set well with the current manga settings for me.

    The above link, gives me clues that she may not die, cause of her final thoughts before that massive blow makes me think that way... I hope it's not just all wishful thinking, however I do think that Zaraki will carry her out of there, and find someone who can help her, if not too deep wounds.

    If he lost last time they fought, but she realized he had bigger potential than her, and even wounded her back then, but that she still won when he was a child. Then all of this would make sense to me

    However if Zaraki won and spared her life back in the past, then her I doubt she will survive... It all depends on the Flashback.... Even if Kubo sucks at story writing, this is well played in my opinion, I'm in a serious bind here on something completely new for me in Bleach.
    Usually I was anticipating and excited about the outcome of battles, that was what made Bleach tick for me. But this time, it's about the outcome of life and death, and development of her character if she survives or dies.
    I'm becoming more excited about her, than Zaraki, and yet I'm also excited about Zaraki.

    It's just that character development has started to mean something for me again in Bleach, it has been standing still for such a freaking long time now!
    I'm really happy to see these developments.

    If Kubo however choose to kill her, I probably would be disappointed and call it bad story writing.. I want to see her character, see her change, with all the package of the past she carries, much which we probably haven't even seen yet, it would be really interesting to see that in relation to her current/future self. But lets see how it turns out.

  9. #277
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    I'm fine with one char being stronger than the other char if he/she has rightfully earned that power (like through training). A kid being naturaly more powerful than one of the strongest captains is different from an ancient shinigami that trained for milenia and has mastered all the shinigami arts.

    By doing this, Zaraki made training seems pointless. I only respect those who trained hard to attain their power, not those who are given power. Before, I thought Zaraki got his power from years of experience looking for strong opponents outside of Seireitei. But it turns out he was born strong. That bothers me greatly because the other captains trained for hundreds and thousands of years to earn the power they possess, which turns out to be less than that of Zaraki. Ichigo and co has already humiliated Ss for their massive power ups within a short time, now one captain of SS itself is gonna do the same thing. I never liked Ichigo's massive power boost, but he got his protagonist-ish so it's understandable.

    In short, Zaraki was given that power, he didn't rightfully earn it as far as I see. Unless it is later proven that that he had been through hell to achieve that power, I'm utterly dissapointed
    i said more or less the same in the previous page: I've been reading bleach for a a year,and knowing already the outcome,due to friends' spoilers,I didn't really pay attention to the "senseless powerups" people talked about.now I understand it. It was fine when he had a captain with an amount of reiatsu higher than almost everyone,but out of the blue that character has been made even stronger,that kind of things is disliked by me,and luckily I'm not the only one disappointed...

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  11. #278
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    i said more or less the same in the previous page: I've been reading bleach for a a year,and knowing already the outcome,due to friends' spoilers,I didn't really pay attention to the "senseless powerups" people talked about.now I understand it. It was fine when he had a captain with an amount of reiatsu higher than almost everyone,but out of the blue that character has been made even stronger,that kind of things is disliked by me,and luckily I'm not the only one disappointed...
    everyone knew that Kenpachi is strong. for me, he is my most favorite character in the manga. i also knew that Kenpachi will be becoming stronger than most others, because he has the potential to do so. if it happened in a way like Kenpachi accessing his Zanpakto power and becoming powerful; everyone would have been OK with that. because it was a known fact that Kenpachi had the unused power of his Zanpakto.

    but then we have recent chapter, where it is stated that Kenpachi is stronger than Unohana (the most senior and also most feared Captain after Yamamoto), even in his childhood where he had no training, much less the Zanpakto power. even being a Kenpachi fan, i hate this revelation. i don't like it the way it progressed, i would have liked it if Kenpachi gained his Zanpakto power and only then becoming more powerful than Unohana.
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  13. #279
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by River_Capulet View Post
    I'm fine with one char being stronger than the other char if he/she has rightfully earned that power (like through training). A kid being naturaly more powerful than one of the strongest captains is different from an ancient shinigami that trained for milenia and has mastered all the shinigami arts.

    By doing this, Zaraki made training seems pointless. I only respect does who trained hard to attain their power, not those who are given power. Before, I thought Zaraki got his power from years of experience looking for strong opponents outside of Seireitei. But it turns out he was born strong. That bothers me greatly because the other captains trained for hundreds and thousands of years to earn the power they possess, which turns out to be less than that of Zaraki. Ichigo and co has already humiliated Ss for their massive power ups within a short time, now one captain of SS itself is gonna do the same thing. I never liked Ichigo's massive power boost, but he got his protagonist-ish so it's understandable.

    In short, Zaraki was given that power, he didn't rightfully earn it as far as I see. Unless it is later proven that that he had been through hell to achieve that power, I'm utterly dissapointed
    The stupidiest thing maybe is the fact that kenpachi trained for nothing the past i-dont-know-how-many-years, isn't it?
    Mangekyou sharingan tobi is a spiral of errors that keeps growing indefinitely.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sky Render's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    That's a bold comparison. Yamamoto trained for God knows how many years and he was probably at least 3,000 years old when he died. Plus, he had mastered all known Shinigami arts; Hakuda, Kido, Zanjutsu and Hoho.
    Kenpachi doesn't have a Bankai, doesn't know his Shikai's name yet, has no clue about Kido, Zanjutsu or Hakuda. If he goes from a reiatsu monster to the strongest character all of a sudden, that bothers me.
    Kenpachi was around when Unohana was a captain, ergo is pretty old. Older than most captains and probably around Kyoraku's age.

    Also Kenpachi is a master swordsman. He knows his way around zanjutsu and knows hakuda. The only thing he doesn't use is kido and shikai. Every single battle of his in the past shows him being fast and skilled -take a look at his moves during the battle with Unohana or Nnoitra, and the way he moved against Yammy and the way he dodged Tosen's sword while blind, or the way he countered his bankai. He ain't the Hulk, that's what I'm saying. He's a very able fighter.

    Also about the training: he IS training right now. Just like Ichigo did against Urahara, Zangetsu and the Visoreds. Just like Chad did against Renji. This is a typical Bleach training and I don't see the problem.

    Ichigo had to fight a lot in order to achieve in three days what Byakuya achieved in years and nobody complained, I fail to see how this is an issue. I mean, it's Kenpachi. What else did you expect? For him to learn shikai and become Komamura 2.0? Dude was always special and always had monster reiatsu and power limiters. Nothing has changed.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    Kenpachi was around when Unohana was a captain, ergo is pretty old. Older than most captains and probably around Kyoraku's age.

    Also Kenpachi is a master swordsman. He knows his way around zanjutsu and knows hakuda. The only thing he doesn't use is kido and shikai. Every single battle of his in the past shows him being fast and skilled -take a look at his moves during the battle with Unohana or Nnoitra, and the way he moved against Yammy and the way he dodged Tosen's sword while blind, or the way he countered his bankai. He ain't the Hulk, that's what I'm saying. He's a very able fighter.

    Also about the training: he IS training right now. Just like Ichigo did against Urahara, Zangetsu and the Visoreds. Just like Chad did against Renji. This is a typical Bleach training and I don't see the problem.

    Ichigo had to fight a lot in order to achieve in three days what Byakuya achieved in years and nobody complained, I fail to see how this is an issue. I mean, it's Kenpachi. What else did you expect? For him to learn shikai and become Komamura 2.0? Dude was always special and always had monster reiatsu and power limiters. Nothing has changed.
    Kyouraku is one of the oldest captains in the current generation, but that changes little in the general context. He was still a kid with no knowledge when he almost killed a captain with demonic attitude, who was probably only inferior to Captain-Commander. I'm talking about the time in the flashback, not today.

    Just because he's fighting with a sword doesn't make you proficient with Zanjutsu. He has speed, but I can't remember him using a Hakuda technique. He is an able fighter, which is something I'll agree with ease, but what makes you think he had the same abilities as a toddler?

    I don't know, I wasn't around when that happened. I was never fine with Ichigo achieving Bankai in two days. But considering Urahara achieved it in three, and they were using a special training method (special since the others aren't shown to be trying anything of that sort), I guess it's fine.
    I actually expected him to learn Shikai, which would definitely be Kido-type, and become a totally different thing, but I'm not a manga artist, so, that just stays as a far-fetched expectation.

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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    Kenpachi was around when Unohana was a captain, ergo is pretty old. Older than most captains and probably around Kyoraku's age.

    Also Kenpachi is a master swordsman. He knows his way around zanjutsu and knows hakuda. The only thing he doesn't use is kido and shikai. Every single battle of his in the past shows him being fast and skilled -take a look at his moves during the battle with Unohana or Nnoitra, and the way he moved against Yammy and the way he dodged Tosen's sword while blind, or the way he countered his bankai. He ain't the Hulk, that's what I'm saying. He's a very able fighter.

    Also about the training: he IS training right now. Just like Ichigo did against Urahara, Zangetsu and the Visoreds. Just like Chad did against Renji. This is a typical Bleach training and I don't see the problem.

    Ichigo had to fight a lot in order to achieve in three days what Byakuya achieved in years and nobody complained, I fail to see how this is an issue. I mean, it's Kenpachi. What else did you expect? For him to learn shikai and become Komamura 2.0? Dude was always special and always had monster reiatsu and power limiters. Nothing has changed.
    Suppose the disappointment lays in how you view foreshadowing, some are very sensitive to these signs, while others to the other extreme are not prone to it at all.
    The problem also consists in that there are two ways to handle foreshadowing.
    • Indirectly making it possible through story progression.
    • Directly letting the reader know, that there is something fishy about the situation.

    For some they understood Kubo as he wrote Kenpachi as the exception, the one who can be just as strong as the other captains without his shikai or bankai, or even his current ("new/old") real reatsu depths.
    For others he was hidden material, just waiting to have a chance to explode! Some actually felt this, or reasoned with it after the current revelation, looking back and accepting Kubo's indirect foreshadowing.

    It's not the readers fault if half or many readers are split, it's Kubo who failed to reach as many readers as possible.
    However at the same time, he shouldn't change his manga to read as many readers as possible, it wouldn't be amazing in that case, but it would only be amazing for some.

    The problem here is that Kubo loves indirect foreshadowing, he almost completely removes himself from direct foreshadowing.
    But if you ask me, Kubo could learn more direct foreshadowing, he doesn't have to give it away early, he can easily make direct foreshadowing that does reveal the outcome, or it may not even happen (Making false foreshadowing, but this is extremely difficult as you may disappoint some readers if done wrong).

    The whole point boils down to that some readers are just not prone to indirect foreshadowing, sadly..

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Suppose the disappointment lays in how you view foreshadowing, some are very sensitive to these signs, while others to the other extreme are not prone to it at all.
    The problem also consists in that there are two ways to handle foreshadowing.
    • Indirectly making it possible through story progression.
    • Directly letting the reader know, that there is something fishy about the situation.

    For some they understood Kubo as he wrote Kenpachi as the exception, the one who can be just as strong as the other captains without his shikai or bankai, or even his current ("new/old") real reatsu depths.
    For others he was hidden material, just waiting to have a chance to explode! Some actually felt this, or reasoned with it after the current revelation, looking back and accepting Kubo's indirect foreshadowing.

    It's not the readers fault if half or many readers are split, it's Kubo who failed to reach as many readers as possible.
    However at the same time, he shouldn't change his manga to read as many readers as possible, it wouldn't be amazing in that case, but it would only be amazing for some.

    The problem here is that Kubo loves indirect foreshadowing, he almost completely removes himself from direct foreshadowing.
    But if you ask me, Kubo could learn more direct foreshadowing, he doesn't have to give it away early, he can easily make direct foreshadowing that does reveal the outcome, or it may not even happen (Making false foreshadowing, but this is extremely difficult as you may disappoint some readers if done wrong).

    The whole point boils down to that some readers are just not prone to indirect foreshadowing, sadly..
    Well, the problem isn't lying in taking the openings into consideration, at least not for me. The problem I have is directly related to the existence of that indirect foreshadowing you mentioned.
    To put it simple, I was well aware that this kind of development was left possible by Kubo and I just didn't like this possibility from the beginning.
    So, there is a difference between "How could this be happening" and "This simply shouldn't have happened".

    For instance, Bach defeating Captain-Commander was easily foreshadowed indirectly, since Ichigo was going to be needed to fight the boss of the arc in the end. However, knowing this was possible in the first place doesn't really make me feel any better than before.
    The situation surrounding Kenpachi is hardly any different. Maybe I just don't like Bleach and that's all

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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Well, the problem isn't lying in taking the openings into consideration, at least not for me. The problem I have is directly related to the existence of that indirect foreshadowing you mentioned.
    To put it simple, I was well aware that this kind of development was left possible by Kubo and I just didn't like this possibility from the beginning.
    So, there is a difference between "How could this be happening" and "This simply shouldn't have happened".

    For instance, Bach defeating Captain-Commander was easily foreshadowed indirectly, since Ichigo was going to be needed to fight the boss of the arc in the end. However, knowing this was possible in the first place doesn't really make me feel any better than before.
    The situation surrounding Kenpachi is hardly any different. Maybe I just don't like Bleach and that's all
    Well it feels like you like Bleach when you write, that's how I understand you at least
    I think you're right, you're onto something I didn't think about, whether one likes the direction or not on a personal level.. I agree that a super powerhouse like Kenpachi, if foreshadowed more probably in the early of the manga does not change this.
    He would have felt like a mountain, and he would have lost his mysterious character feeling, and many other things that I either haven't thought about or mentioned.

    Although some people are also let down by the surprise, while some of us don't like the direction Bleach takes.
    Everything is more complicated than one makes it out to be, yet everything are also more simple than one makes it out to be, life can be tricky

    On that matter I think you're right, Kenpachi was unique in his way of being and acting in the manga, while progression and change always are required, some things are better left alone, for example things that makes people love Bleach.
    Kenpachi is probably one of these no-change areas? People loved him since Kenpachi vs. Ichigo, me included, I suppose that's the problem?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sky Render's Avatar
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    Re: Bleach 525 Discussion / 526 Predictions

    About Kubo being way more subtle than necessary: true dat. Sometimes you gotta pull an Oda and make things clear as day, or else you risk people not getting you. Sometimes our man teases too much for his own good.

    Of course, I believe we should just ride along at this point. It's been almost 600 chapters, and the last 500 have been pretty much the same way.

    Just rest assured that Kenpachi being more powerful is not going to make the story boring and/or the other characters irrelevant. This is just another shonen powerup via training: the difference lies in that this strenght comes from past potential, and not your average "pulling out your inner resolve" we're so used to see.

    I mean, really: it's no biggie. There are no reasons to fear for the future of the manga. You might not like it (even though we still don't know what the outcome of this training will be), but I hear many "ruined forever" cries and it's bugging me a lil'

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