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Thread: Naruto 618 Discussion

  1. #736
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member enmymiguel's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Some post are saying that. They didnt have to revive the 4 off then. The 1st and 3th would be enough.
    But watch later on how each of then know something that the other hokage dont know about cause remember. Hokage sometime know somthing and they keep it to themself
    I must create a real village, until i demonstrate what a real kage is. I cant Die!

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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Why summon all four? Because Orochimaru wants power, that's why...
    Or you think Orochimaru would summon the hokages just because Sasuke wants to?

  3. #738
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    sasuke will have,as an answer,that tobi told him lies: hashirama really wanted peace with the uchiha,and tobirama emarginated them only to keep an eye on the rebel ones. Hiruzen will then say that he has always wanted peace with them (and itachi confirmed that in the flashback of vol.62),in fact danzo was his enemy too. Finally,minato will say that it was indeed a uchiha who summoned the fox,that is tobi! sasuke will then be pissed off by tobi's lie that it was a natural calamity,and will desire to kill everyone,both tobi and the leaf ninjas!

  4. #739
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Each Hokage was in office during different times, thus each could have done things none of the other 3 could have known about, this happens all the time with U.S. Presidents.

    Saying that, Hashirama and Tobirama can give us early knowledge of the Village and what the Senju and Uchiha relationship was like.

    Sarturobi was Hokage the longest and thus has the most to tell, not to mention the Uchiha massacre happened under his watch.

    Minato is the greatest hero the village ever knew. Not to mention he is a tad bit different then the other 3 as he wasn't so much old school as they were, and thus he could relate to Sasuke more than they could.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  5. #740
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by zimbardo View Post
    umm... like they already had before? The same amount of 'political power' that every other clan had - Nara, Akamichi, Hyuuga...
    Am I missing something? Can you give me specific areas where they had less 'political power' than any other clan (excluding the clan that had the Hokageship/the Hokage's advisor's clans [whatever those may be])?

    That is why I said "self governance and autonomy" - because as far as I see it, they are not lacking any other political power other than direct governance (without Hokage control). They also have a role in electing the Hokage for example...
    Not really, as we don't know how the government was set up at during that time nor exactly how they fitted within the hierarchy. Whatever power they lost, they lost it after the Kyuubi Incident and shortly before the massacre, and was something they could take back from the council with force. That's not self governance or autonomy, things gone since the founding and easily achievable by simply leaving.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I'm actually hoping Sasuke stating he'd target the entire village wasn't true. Seemed like common sense didn't get to him when Kakashi and he had a chat.
    Not trying to justify it, but Sasuke targeting everyone makes sense given he best of all knows what happens if you leave someone alive to take revenge. Obviously no one in their right mind would want to allow another "Sasuke" to run around after them. Same logic behind Nagato scouring Ame of anyone with the slightest connection to Hanzou.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
    Sauske decided in his head that he was going to kill a bunch of innocent people. It wasn't a decision made in the heat of a moment, or when he wasn't thinking straight. He made a decision, and stuck with it. Then later on his brother told him some stuff and he decided to do a little research on "what is a village" before deciding whether or not to continue with his plan. The mere fact that he EVER decided that innocent people were on a hit list is what makes him a scumbag. I see nothing exculpatory in his behavior yet. At this point he has already made his horrifying choice. The fact that he simply wants to look his victim in the face before he decides whether or not he's going to pull the trigger does not somehow make him a nice guy, or rational. What if some nutcase was holding a gun to your kids, and said - "Gee why don't you tell me a little about your kids. Then I'll decide whether I'm going to blow their brains out or not..." Is that rational? Is that 'the right thing'? Or would you not think that this was a horrible, awful, evil person for even thinking about killing a kid in the first place?
    You do realize that their ninjas and killing et mass is the norm, right? They are literally trained from childhood to murder and assassination is an accepted job option. We already had two known mass exterminations via Kiri and Ame, and stated eradication against certain kinds of people. Not to mention at least two invasions that didn't even attempt to differentiate between civilians and military. Sasuke's decision is pretty par the course, except his motivation is mainly personal instead of practical.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    sasuke will have,as an answer,that tobi told him lies: hashirama really wanted peace with the uchiha,and tobirama emarginated them only to keep an eye on the rebel ones. Hiruzen will then say that he has always wanted peace with them (and itachi confirmed that in the flashback of vol.62),in fact danzo was his enemy too. Finally,minato will say that it was indeed a uchiha who summoned the fox,that is tobi! sasuke will then be pissed off by tobi's lie that it was a natural calamity,and will desire to kill everyone,both tobi and the leaf ninjas!
    Hashirama wasn't said to not have wanted peace, both Obito and Itachi cleared Sarutobi of any fault in the matter, and it's likely Sasuke knows Obito was responsible for the Kyuubi. Tobirama's actually having them under watch wouldn't make it any better, and Sasuke already intends to murder Obito.

  6. #741
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Hashirama wasn't said to not have wanted peace, both Obito and Itachi cleared Sarutobi of any fault in the matter, and it's likely Sasuke knows Obito was responsible for the Kyuubi. Tobirama's actually having them under watch wouldn't make it any better, and Sasuke already intends to murder Obito.
    Nope! that was obito's only lie (with the fact he was not madara ),and that's why sasuke joined the revenge,imo. He got angry because of an hatred not due to his own clan. yet,if he knew obito had summoned kurama,he would be pissed off because he would connect the uchihas' emargination with obito's action.
    PS, how come sasuke is now aware of the fact tobi is not madara,and yet he hasn't had any reaction??

  7. #742
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki27 View Post

    I agree. They're ninja. They kill people mercilessly for their own interests. This manga is more complex than good vs evil, where konoha is good and everyone else is evil. Does anyone see kakashi as immoral? He killed his best friend to protect the village. People view itachi as a "good" guy cause he prevented a civil war. But he killed his parents and clan members to do it. Isn't that immoral? Using definitive labels in this type of manga doesn't always fit.

    In it's essence, edo tensei is no different than summoning a frog except one sacrifices blood and the other a life. The bigger the jutsu the bigger the consequences/sacrifice. To make the impossible possible you lose your eye sight. Of course it's a life for a life. Chiyo sacrificed herself to revive Gaara. Minato with the death god. It goes on and on...

    To protect their own interests, whether that's saving a loved one, helping the village, w/e the reason, Kishimoto has shown that these ninja will do w/e they have to do. That doesn't make them immoral per se.
    I think you are creating your own principle, and broadening very well-define truth. There are indeed good and evil, and these are relatively absolute. Why relatively absolute? Because in every society, the people come together to define rules and principles. Thus, in these society, everyone who disobey the rules and principles is considered as evil and will be punished while people who respect and live by these principles and rules are accepted as goods.

    Therefore, I think that dropping your opinions on good and evil without any initial basis is not correct. This is how some people think to justify they action.

    In the shinobi world, there are rules and principles. There are team-level rules or recommendations set by the captain. These rules come after the rules and principles set by the whole village (village-level rules). The village-level rules must comply with the country-level rules and principles. Actually, the country-level rules is the absolute rules until there are amendments.

    In order to facilitate relashionship between countries, and built a system that is secure, there are alliances, and these alliances are built upon rules and principles of collaboration or mutual protection. I can go farther to say that even if there is no alliance, each country knows that he must not attack another country. Eachi village know it must no attack another village, and so on. In fact, humans are conscious of principles such as (1) don't steal, (2) don't kill , etc. They know freedom, liberty, piece, etc. All these define good and evil at some extent.

    For example, "thou shall not kill" is a social rule. However, the police has the right to kill any ganster who refuses to submit to their authority and threat them with a deadly attack.

    Thus, I disagree with the argument that there is no define good and evil. A shinobi is not suppose to kill someone who is innocent. A country is not suppose to spy on another country. A country is not suppose to attack another country. These kind of action are motivated by fear, greed, selfishness, etc, and that is why they cause war, vengeance, etc. They are evil. The shinobi's only role is to protect his people from internal and external threat. In this duty, he might have to kill or injure someone who represent a threat. As long as he keep this line, he is doing good. If he becomes a threat to someone or another country, he is classified as someone who is doing evil.

    Doing good or evil are choices that we make everyday. They are not some sort of philosophy. Good and evil are well-defined in every society.

    From this, Itachi defended his village against the Uchiha, and honored his duty towards Konoha as a shinobi. He was a good soldier - unless new intels reveal that the Uchiha were innocents. There is a principle that exist in justice: "Only a lawful authority can pass judgement. If A kills B else by vengeance, and it is proven that be wasn't a threat to A, then A will be judge and condemned. This is because B himself is protected by law.

  8. #743
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    Nope! that was obito's only lie (with the fact he was not madara ),and that's why sasuke joined the revenge,imo. He got angry because of an hatred not due to his own clan. yet,if he knew obito had summoned kurama,he would be pissed off because he would connect the uchihas' emargination with obito's action.
    PS, how come sasuke is now aware of the fact tobi is not madara,and yet he hasn't had any reaction??
    Sasuke was told so by Itachi, and he would likely believe Itachi over Obito. Sasuke joined because it was beneficial to his own plans. He already intended to kill Obito because he was involved in the massacre, so Obito's involvement with the Kyuubi wouldn't change Sasuke's intentions for him. And probably because he read Zetsu's mind, which would contain all this information.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    I think you are creating your own principle, and broadening very well-define truth. There are indeed good and evil, and these are relatively absolute. Why relatively absolute? Because in every society, the people come together to define rules and principles. Thus, in these society, everyone who disobey the rules and principles is considered as evil and will be punished while people who respect and live by these principles and rules are accepted as goods.

    Therefore, I think that dropping your opinions on good and evil without any initial basis is not correct. This is how some people think to justify they action.

    In the shinobi world, there are rules and principles. There are team-level rules or recommendations set by the captain. These rules come after the rules and principles set by the whole village (village-level rules). The village-level rules must comply with the country-level rules and principles. Actually, the country-level rules is the absolute rules until there are amendments.

    In order to facilitate relashionship between countries, and built a system that is secure, there are alliances, and these alliances are built upon rules and principles of collaboration or mutual protection. I can go farther to say that even if there is no alliance, each country knows that he must not attack another country. Eachi village know it must no attack another village, and so on. In fact, humans are conscious of principles such as (1) don't steal, (2) don't kill , etc. They know freedom, liberty, piece, etc. All these define good and evil at some extent.

    For example, "thou shall not kill" is a social rule. However, the police has the right to kill any ganster who refuses to submit to their authority and threat them with a deadly attack.

    Thus, I disagree with the argument that there is no define good and evil. A shinobi is not suppose to kill someone who is innocent. A country is not suppose to spy on another country. A country is not suppose to attack another country. These kind of action are motivated by fear, greed, selfishness, etc, and that is why they cause war, vengeance, etc. They are evil. The shinobi's only role is to protect his people from internal and external threat. In this duty, he might have to kill or injure someone who represent a threat. As long as he keep this line, he is doing good. If he becomes a threat to someone or another country, he is classified as someone who is doing evil.

    Doing good or evil are choices that we make everyday. They are not some sort of philosophy. Good and evil are well-defined in every society.

    From this, Itachi defended his village against the Uchiha, and honored his duty towards Konoha as a shinobi. He was a good soldier - unless new intels reveal that the Uchiha were innocents. There is a principle that exist in justice: "Only a lawful authority can pass judgement. If A kills B else by vengeance, and it is proven that be wasn't a threat to A, then A will be judge and condemned. This is because B himself is protected by law.
    We have been outright told that the villages regularly preform spy mission and assassinations. Both Minato and Kakashi have done this. These things aren't evil to them.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; February 01, 2013 at 07:04 PM.

  9. #744
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    Nope! that was obito's only lie (with the fact he was not madara ),and that's why sasuke joined the revenge,imo. He got angry because of an hatred not due to his own clan. yet,if he knew obito had summoned kurama,he would be pissed off because he would connect the uchihas' emargination with obito's action.
    PS, how come sasuke is now aware of the fact tobi is not madara,and yet he hasn't had any reaction??
    It seems that Kishi did not plan well Sasuke's role after his fight with Itachi. Since that fight, Sasuke has moved from the guy with a clear goal in his mind to someone who really irrational. Sasuke knew that Madara was the founder of the Uchiha clan, and I would have expected him to meet him. I would have expected Sasuke to hear from his parents, not from the Senju leaders who are responsible of the Uchiha massacre. In fact, I still hope that they will still bring some Uchiha back unless some are still alive in hiding. Unless they have a Jutsu that can make someone spit the truth, I think the Hokages will only give the same view they had when they were alive.

    PS: How can we judge the Uchihas if they are not around?

    ========= ON summoning the Kages =======

    1. I think Hashimara will give the Senju's version of Rikudo's children as Madara did with Obito. I expect Hashimara to reveal what he knows about the rivalry between the younger and elder son. I would like him to give what truly happen between Konoha, Madara, and the Uchiha.

    2. Tobirama will clear our mind certainly on why the Uchiha became police force. We will know if it was by good intention or not. From Danzou's flashback, my first impression is that Tobirama was the guy who could make good decision. We also saw that his choice of Hiruzen was right for the village.

    3. Hiruzen will clearly give all the detail with his knowledge of the coup d'etat. Hiruzen might also know what the Uchihas had as reasons for the coup d'etat. I will also like Kishi to say why Sasuke was named after Hiruzen grand-father because in every culture (specially mine), people don't give any name to their children. Usually, they give name of their ancestors.

    4. Concerning Minato, I think the only thing we can expect from him with certainty is to reveal that a Sharingan guy controlled Kyuubi. However, he might have more intel on the conflict than we think. Minato knew about Madara, and Tobirama. He seemed to be vexed in a lot of knowledge about Konoha. I also hope Kishi will use this asspul to clear all discussion about his origins. Who were Minato's parents.

    Finally, I expect Kishi to show some uchiha to defend themselves.

    ---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sasuke was told so by Itachi, and he would likely believe Itachi over Obito. Sasuke joined because it was beneficial to his own plans. He already intended to kill Obito because he was involved in the massacre, so Obito's involvement with the Kyuubi wouldn't change Sasuke's intentions for him. And probably because he read Zetsu's mind, which would contain all this information.

    We have been outright told that the villages regularly preform spy mission and assassinations. Both Minato and Kakashi have done this. These things aren't evil to them.
    Secret mission can also be response from a threat. Besides, I doubt that Konoha engage in such assassination as an order from the Hokages. Don't forget that Hashimara distributed tailed beast to other villages. He could have destroy them. All the Hokage had Hashimara's will, and I doubt they will do such thing. Only Danzou was shown to do illegal activities. Despite the sand attacking Konoha, Konoha did nothing but accepted their apologies and made an alliance with them.
    Why do you think Neiji's father was killed?

    To my knowledge, Konoha is the village whose Hokage did a lot of efforts to avoid conflicts. Danzou's actions were a problem to Konoha itself.

  10. #745
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Secret mission can also be response from a threat. Besides, I doubt that Konoha engage in such assassination as an order from the Hokages. Don't forget that Hashimara distributed tailed beast to other villages. He could have destroy them. All the Hokage had Hashimara's will, and I doubt they will do such thing. Only Danzou was shown to do illegal activities. Despite the sand attacking Konoha, Konoha did nothing but accepted their apologies and made an alliance with them.
    Why do you think Neiji's father was killed?

    To my knowledge, Konoha is the village whose Hokage did a lot of efforts to avoid conflicts. Danzou's actions were a problem to Konoha itself.
    Any response would have been them being hired out, since the entire village system is a mercenary one. And one word:
    Spoiler: ANBU show


    So yeah, assassinations were conducted under the Hokages. Chidori was created as a technique for assassination. Heck, have you forgotten about Ibiki, who's in charge of an entire torture division? The Will of Fire doesn't imply any sort of anti-violence. It's always just been about village pride. Hashirama spent years at war with the Uchiha clan, so did Tobirama along with creating Edo Tensei, Sarutobi had the village involved in at least two world wars, and Minato showed no trouble being willing to kill.

    Konoha accepted Suna's apologies because they blamed the whole thing on Orochimaru and because Konoha wasn't in a position to challenge them. And Neji's father being sacrificed only shows that Konoha wasn't in the position to go to war right after the Third Ninja War. Konoha is the only village shown involved in all three world wars. Besides, avoiding conflict doesn't equal anti-violence, proven by Danzo's actions which were implied to have kept Konoha out of several conflicts.

  11. #746
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sasuke was told so by Itachi, and he would likely believe Itachi over Obito. Sasuke joined because it was beneficial to his own plans. He already intended to kill Obito because he was involved in the massacre, so Obito's involvement with the Kyuubi wouldn't change Sasuke's intentions for him. And probably because he read Zetsu's mind, which would contain all this information.
    no,no,no! Itachi had told sasuke that amongst a huge amount of lies,that's what Obito told him too.i suggest you read vol.43 again... Sasuke definitely loved but doubted Itachi, and I felt strange that tobi said only that lie,as if it were the key to make sasuke an evil guy.
    about the zetsu,you should re-read vol.60 too,as sasuke only forged the zetsu to tell him what was going on,in fact he discovered about the war because the zetsu told him so, he didn't enter any mind!

  12. #747
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    You know what I loved about this chapter? Zetsu is once again responsible for the plot moving along. He is the duct tape that holds this whole ridiculous thing together E>

    Quote Originally Posted by Remy View Post
    Well.... he could teach thunder god tech to Naruto for one... we'll probably know more about the Uzumaki clan... man list can be long, he's one of the most interessting caracter of the manga.

    Oh, and that freakin teleportation kunai wich trew Kurama to 2 KM from the village could be cool to give to naruto
    Dear god I hope not. FTG needs a good explanation to explain the fact that only Minato could use it effectively. It seems like Kishi is moving that way though, what with three non-Minato people needed to use it. Sounds like future-proofing to explain why it's so easy for Naruto to use it. Fucking ugh. That said, I would despise Naruto learning FTG more than... most things I don't like about this war arc.

    ---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Besides, avoiding conflict doesn't equal anti-violence, proven by Danzo's actions which were implied to have kept Konoha out of several conflicts.
    Man. Danzou said that to give himself some worth in the context of the village. It seemed more like he was saying that to justify slowly building power literally under the nose of the village. Not saying it was a wise move by Kishi to villain-ize Danzou so much, but with every flashback involving him it looks more and more like Danzou did no good for Konoha and was just out for himself the whole time.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    I can't understand why Naruto would need to be both the fastest ninja in the manga AND be able to teleport, AND be able to have 1000 of himself on the battlefield at once. What the hell kind of fight would that be? You'd never see the opponent. All you'd see is a giant blob of orange.

    I hope Hiraishin disappears from continuity. No Edo Minato using it. No Sasuke using it. No Naruto using it. It's the only one of the upper echelon of hax jutsu that doesn't have a distinct drawback.

    EDIT: Oh yeah. Forgot about Kamui. That one has no detrimental side effects... or it does, but not if you've got Hashirama DNA to allow spamming.
    Last edited by ninjabot; February 01, 2013 at 08:54 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    It seems that Kishi did not plan well Sasuke's role after his fight with Itachi. Since that fight, Sasuke has moved from the guy with a clear goal in his mind to someone who really irrational. Sasuke knew that Madara was the founder of the Uchiha clan, and I would have expected him to meet him. I would have expected Sasuke to hear from his parents, not from the Senju leaders who are responsible of the Uchiha massacre. In fact, I still hope that they will still bring some Uchiha back unless some are still alive in hiding. Unless they have a Jutsu that can make someone spit the truth, I think the Hokages will only give the same view they had when they were alive.
    I feel the total opposite. Everything Sasuke has done since being taken in by Tobi has been completely irrational. For ONCE he wants to learn the other side of the story, after hearing Tobi/Madara's side. He wouldn't learn anything from Madara that Tobi didn't already tell him, anyways.

    ET will force the truth, if it can force people to fight against their former comrades. There's no reason it shouldn't.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 618 Discussion / 619 Predictions

    They do have a jutsu that can force people to speak the truth. It's called "plain old non-descript Sharingan Genjutsu".

    Sasuke used hypnosis to force a Kumo-nin to tell him where Bee was. Did the same to learn Zetsu's orders. Itachi used it to force Kabuto to reveal the seals to cancel Edo Tensei. Sasuke can force each Hokage to give up the goods.

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