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Thread: Theory on more complex battle system and predictions

  1. #1
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Theory on more complex battle system and predictions

    So long time reader first time poster

    Massive wall of text incoming. Theories, thoughts, predictions.

    First of all there is a very important rule, as stated by Terry Goodkind in his Sword of Truth series’ first book – Wizard’s First Rule (IF you didn’t read this series you missing out big time). First rule for a reason. Because it’s the most important.

    The rule is this: People are stupid. People will believe lies either because they THINK it is true or because they are AFRAID it is true.

    No one is immune to it. If you think you are, you are stupid . This rule means to contest the “truth” as is presented to you until nothing but facts, HARD reality based facts (is what fact means…) are left and so the TRUTH can be revealed.

    So how does this apply to HxH. (Theory) In the Nen “rules” themselves. Where are this “rules” stored? How are they “enforced”? The obvious answer….. nowhere. Nowhere, that is, but the nen user own mind.

    This nen rules are a massive self-hypnosis in which according to a price you get a reward. The rules can be set consciously (Kurapika) or unconsciously (Gon) (Basically powerful emotions can generate rules as a means of increased your chances to achieve whatever brought about that emotion).

    Everything in in reality has rules, has drawbacks. The usual drawback (price) is that in order to do anything, even think, you need an expenditure of energy. Big or small it must exist. The rule it implies is that you can’t gain something from nothing. In the case of a nen rule what/who/how decides if the price is the right one? No doubt we all agree a price must be paid, but the deciding is left purely and solely to the rule maker, and to what he BELIEVES is enough.

    In this case characters like Kurapika and Gon set ridiculously high prices for what they achieved, simply because of the common belief/”knowledge” about the rules of Nen. They did this because they feared what setting a low/lower price would entail. Which is perfectly understandable given how hard it is to judge and the lack of background on low price/high reward rules translate to reality. (Probably not well).

    I think that in the HxH universe when a person realizes this, realizes their BELIEFS power what they can achieve, they instantly transform into a specialist. I can’t decide if they transform in addiction to whatever type they were or instead (I’m leaning towards the addictive ). These self-made Specialists are much more powerful than a “normal” specialist because based on their will, according to their necessities, they can change/create/delete rules to fit their purposes/situation and so overcome seemingly impossible odds.

    Imagine when facing an opponent faster than you, you set the rule “I dodge every attack he makes but I can’t attack/hurt him” and then mid fight when there’s a moment of opportunity you change the rule to “you can’t dodge nor block my attack but I the reverse is also true”. Then if the opponent is also of your “caliber” it becomes a battle of wills (Yes like Toriko), AND/OR who sets the lowest price for a highest outcome, basically the efficiency of their beliefs. This leads to a new skill of greatest importance. The skill to GOUGE the correct (lowest/riskless) price for an intended reward.

    I believe this is the case for Don Freecs group. Yes I think there are several people. In “reality” no one can achieve everything and so they need help. In this case from likeminded and also “true” specialist people, In order to overcome the challenges the Dark Continent presents. Don’s “ generation” probably had a collection of people that achieved true specialist states and then all of them deciding on venturing to the DC, leaving nothing written about it or someone to spread the knowledge. Although they returned 300 years ago, for a short time, to publish a “fiction” book and probably drop off an unnamed Freecs at the local child support facility .

    Like discovering nen or it being taught to you, there are differences between the “finders” and the “receivers” of this very important knowledge. Probably the first “true” specialist was a “natural” finder because he/she had no preconceived notions nor knowledge of any kind and had to find things the hard way. By testing possibilities. That being said every person has different levels of will power and will power potential so AGAIN like finding nen alone or not, the important is the potential. The Skill GOUGING would also be of supreme importance.

    I predict (or hope for) this outcome:
    Ging sends Gon a copy of the “Traveler’s log: East edition” and writes a note at the end of the book. It reads “the author of this book is Don Freecs and the West edition is still being written…”. Gon reads the book and gets an overwhelming sense of wonder and an exploration/challenge frenzy. He knows without nen he isn’t going anywhere. From one moment to the next, all he thought was true, all he believes, changes, and like a lock being blown to pieces is mind is set free. Aura flows massively as Gon realizes it’s not the same as before. That HE is not the same. He is a specialist and what he believes powers who is he.

    P.S: He had noted (or searched) the book was 300 years old and knew the DC was real because of the news/media.

    I totally understand if you think it’s a shitty way to get Gon back. BUT I just had to think of a way other than the very likely outcome:

    Maybe travel arc?

    Time skip after arrival to years later (when Gon is “ready”) and part of the group came back to report/resupply/recruit in which we see in retrospect Gon’s training under Bisky or Kite and the events of the journey till now and the set off again to the DC.
    Given my WILL of this not happening this way, all this occurred to me , simply because I just can’t see/picture/imagine Gon not going NOW to the DC. Gon is the main character although we all know HxH is very far from the normal shonen stereotypes and thank GOD for that. By the way God to me is the collective conscious of sentient beings, you didn’t seriously believe me a “believer” after ALL THIS did you? .

    I also think these “true” Specialists are immune to the “Memory Overload” phenomenon and so have a combat or at least useful skill of every hatsu kind. Now imagine this and Specialist and “former” type being addictive AMAUGAD (100% power for all Hatsus). That’s why the addictive may be a little farfetched.

    So a batlle on HxH could potentially be fought on many levels nen quantity, nen skill, number of battle ready/useful hatsus (having the best one versus your opponent or the least drawbacks), will power and GOUGING skill. This is just how stupid complex a fight could become in this amazing manga THINK ON THAT .

    Ok rereading what I wrote you may be confused as to how will power and GOUGING interact. I see three possibilities. First and simpler will power is like fuel to be spent on making/changing rules (like nen aura being spent on nen skills) OR second, and A LOT more interesting, it sets the balance between how disproportionate the price can be compared to an outcome, or Third, and obvious one, how likely is your rule to overpower an enemy rule for the SAME level of price paid. This last one is probably the more complex one given YET another interaction, between will and price, would exist. Probably real outcome = Price x Will Power, so a less willed dude could still beat an overconfident (lower price) willed dude for the same outcome. Could beat in other, more imaginative, ways, like unexpected rules with no counter rule and so victory can be achieved in any number of scenarios.

    Now imagine will power in constant shift during the battle, you GOUGING your rules, WHILE trying to figure out the rules the opponent is setting in place AND trying to guess its price, WHILE estimating your will power AND trying to measure his WHILE channeling aura though your body in the right quantity to the right place AND judging how much aura the enemy has/where ….. Just LOL. Characters are already reticent about fighting as is, with this added no one would fight ever lol.

    So comment on my theories, predictions, more layered combat system or call me a NERD whichever is fine. I just wanted to share.

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  3. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member mrsticky005's Avatar
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    Re: Theory on more complex battle system and predictions

    I'll be honest...I tried reading that all but then I got lost.
    Still it's kind interesting how the mind effects one's own nen.
    It's sorta a "I think therefore nen" type deal here but even deeper.

    Though I would say that it seems strongly implied that there
    is a spiritual side to nen and it's not merely in the character's head.

    Now I don't know if there is an actual afterlife of some sort in HxH
    or if it is simply a case of residual nen following the rules of thermodynamics.
    Even if a person were to die their nen, that is to say their energy is not destroyed.

    ---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

    BTW I for one welcome long text posts (though a bit less complex). I LIKE when people have a lot to say
    on something interesting like HxH. What's boring is having debates where you get long walls of text
    because then you feel obligated to go over every point even if you have already. And I'll admit
    that I write long walls of text in debates--but again this is mainly because I find it difficult
    to explain my position and keep things concise.

    But stuff like this where it's theory I appreciate the time and effort that goes into
    it rather than just being like "Theory Time: Chrollo is Kurapika" and having no real explanation.
    I hate it when people write "tl:dr" on stuff like this (even though thankfully nobody has)
    because it's discouraging to those who just want to share something potentially cool.

  4. #3
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Theory on more complex battle system and predictions

    First, I will start with this; Nen system is a very flawed, incomplete and inconsistent system. Therefore, any logical thought about Nen falls on the unspoken antecedent that Nen follows formal logic. Nen doesn´t follow formal logic, it follows Togashi logic, which is radically different from normal logic.
    Quote Quote:
    So how does this apply to HxH. (Theory) In the Nen “rules” themselves. Where are this “rules” stored? How are they “enforced”? The obvious answer….. nowhere. Nowhere, that is, but the nen user own mind.
    Right now this seems to be the case. The fault on Togashi´s side is the fact he didn´t establish who upholds the fulfillment of this Contract the moment he introduced the whole Limitation business. It could be the person himself or some God of the universe. But this presents us with the problem that if it is actually the person himself, then some people may perform or exhibit abilities that might be incredibly overpowered and thus destroy this system Togashi uses.
    Quote Quote:
    This nen rules are a massive self-hypnosis in which according to a price you get a reward. The rules can be set consciously (Kurapika) or unconsciously (Gon) (Basically powerful emotions can generate rules as a means of increased your chances to achieve whatever brought about that emotion).
    First, the problem I had with Kurapika´s restriction was actually the comment of his Master. It is safe to assume that in their world there are about 10 billion or even more people and Kurapika set his limit on just 13 specific persons FOR LIFE (unless I am mistaken). His Master just brushes it aside with; It´s a bit weak. How can he know that? How can he judge that? Maybe the Limitation is right and he is wrong. Then, since we do not know who upholds the rules, we also can´t tell if the reward is just. Also the reinforcement of the deal by Judgement Chain is all sorts of crazy and further weakens the gravity of a Limitation and Contract. He basically says that; I will use this only on 13 persons so give me power. Then gives an addendum. Let´s make it so that I die if I use it on somebody outside the 13 so give me even more power. Then he gives another addendum. Hisoka is not actually a member and he wasn´t involved in Kuruta slaughter so let´s cross him off the contract.

    Second; how can one establish a contract? Do they just say it aloud or say it in mind? Who is there to observe that it wasn´t in jest? The concept requires some other entity so that the contract can be established. If the upholder is really the person himself, then there can be a case similar to this; Well I broke the rules, so are you going to kill me? - Yes that was the contract. - But you are me! - Yes. - So how about not killing me? - Ok. Now you might say this is ridiculous, but who is there to enforce that the contract is fulfilled?
    Quote Quote:
    In this case characters like Kurapika and Gon set ridiculously high prices for what they achieved, simply because of the common belief/”knowledge” about the rules of Nen. They did this because they feared what setting a low/lower price would entail. Which is perfectly understandable given how hard it is to judge and the lack of background on low price/high reward rules translate to reality. (Probably not well).
    The fault with Gon is the fact that Kurapika had a master that probably told him (off screen, I guess) how to establish the contract. Kurapika just told him that there are things like Limitation and Contract. Gon knows there is such thing but he doesn´t know how to enter into a Contract. Then the whole Kite affair happens and as Pitou is healing itself we have an insight into Gon´s mind. His wording suggest he is speaking with hopes that somebody or something will hear his plea for power and grants him such power. There is no info about how to dissolve a contract or how to recognize a childish tantrum from a genuine contract.
    Quote Quote:
    I think that in the HxH universe when a person realizes this, realizes their BELIEFS power what they can achieve, they instantly transform into a specialist. I can’t decide if they transform in addiction to whatever type they were or instead (I’m leaning towards the addictive ). These self-made Specialists are much more powerful than a “normal” specialist because based on their will, according to their necessities, they can change/create/delete rules to fit their purposes/situation and so overcome seemingly impossible odds.
    Another fault not addressed within manga is that Nen is chosen at birth and influenced by our upbringing but what change in our life constitutes a what kind of a change in our Nen? What determines our type of Nen? Let´s suppose Uvougin with his Mastered Enhancer 100% wants to change into Specialist/ or Manipulator. What must he do and why should his Enhancer Nen change (from 100% to 60%)? How does that change occur, instantly or gradually? Why is that Conjurers and Manipulators can change into Specialists more easily than others? The problem is that there should have been no limit to possibilities like Pure Enhancer can´t reach 100% in Conjurer, BUT there should have been this: everybody can reach any class how far they want but reaching the top in a class other than yours will take you considerably longer than it takes for a person of this class.

  5. #4
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Theory on more complex battle system and predictions

    SPECIALISTS IN GENERAL
    Since nen is linked to will power which is linked intrinsically to a person's psyche, an Enhancer cannot just decide on becoming a specialist without a radical change in psychological makeup. A person's psychological make up/world view/outlook in life is something that is typically developed during the formative period of his life i.e. childhood to adolescence. Since most Hunters and therefore nen users are adolescents when they first BEGIN "learning" nen it's extremely unlikely for anybody to mutate into a Specialist subsequent to being slotted into a normal nen school. It would take some sort of psychologically, catastrophically significant event to bring about such a change. Specialists are probably people who have some seriously messed up pathological fixations on certain things at, possibly, the expense of normal cognitive processes resulting in the "normal" disciplines of Nen being over-ridden. Neon is one such example.

    GON TURNING INTO A SPECIALIST
    As for Gon turning freely into a Specialist upon realizing that nen is all in the mind, that's impossible. It would require his psyche to be fully liquid and changeable upon a whim. A person like that wouldn't even be cognitively human. He would have to be completely and utterly wrecked in the mind to be able to do so and would not in any case be functional as a human being.

    LIMITATIONS BEING TRUE ONLY TO THE USER
    You make a good point about the lack of a balancing mechanism in the nen system in that the power of nen is dependent on will power, risks and limitations and different people value things differently. Example: Nen user A is a pyromaniac who has developed the ability to set anything on fire just by looking at it. Unfortunately, he has no empathy and sees people as no different than objects. His ability therefore works on people as well. Perhaps the problem then is that there is no universal nen defense against messed up abilities that have non-physical attributes. For example, Fun Fun Cloth allows the user to shrink anything he covers with the cloak. There is no nen-based defense against Fun Fun Cloth. Indeed one could argue that the ability was never intended to be used on people. It just so happens to work. But IF nen based defense such as Ken works universally (to a reasonable extent) against attacks with non-physical mechanisms THEN the system could possibly be balanced. One alternative is for nen users to be automatically cognizant of their opponent's ability upon contact. This way instead of being blitzed by an unreasonably powerful ability they can at least implement prevent measures. Unfortunately, this goes against HxH lore (Zoldyck v Kuroro, Bomber, Kurapica v Uvogin etc.). One other alternative is that one could take the view point that any user with an overpowered ability probably is no good at combat in the first place precisely because he doesn't feel strongly about the combat implications of his ability. This seems to be consistent with the theme of nen combat in HxH which is something that has been described as featuring an element of unpredictability.

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