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Thread: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

  1. #151
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    What seal did he create? Please show me this seal you speak of. Naruto learned how to manipulate his own seal in while training with Jiraiya, but still needed the key to use it. There was no "new seal" created, Naruto use the key to unlock the true potential of his seal. It changed into "a new seal" thanks to the key, but Naruto never created it, the seal had that potential the entire time.


    And yet they were all agreeing and trusting Naruto. They hate each other because of their rivalries, something they didn't have when they were small. They hated their Jinchuriki because they neglected them and hated them. Naruto isn't like that. Thus, he carries their will because they trust him, hence the whole fist bump thing. It was a way of showing understanding, an acknowledgment. Bee was the one to introduce this, when him and Naruto bumped fists they understood one another.


    The effect on the Kyuubi had never been shown before because Naruto never used the key before. Naruto needed the key to open the seal. Then he needed to defeat the Kyuubi. Once the Kyuubi was weak, the seal re-sealed him in a new way, and thus changed.

    The only reason the Kyuubi was suppressed in the way it was is because Naruto kicked it's ass. He had to weaken it before it could be sealed. But the only way he got access to him in that sense was by using the key.


    A New Seal, created by manipulating his old one via the key. The seal always had this potential when used with the key, this was the whole point of the key, without it Naruto couldn't have done what he did. The seal is "new" in the sense that it's transformed. But it wasn't the Kyuubi's chakra that transformed it, but the key.

    Obviously Naruto tuned into RK mode thanks to the Kyuubi's chakra, but the Kyuubi's chakra was fueled the seal to allow him to do so. It's not like it was the chakra that created this seal, this seal allowed Naruto to use the chakra in the way he is.



    Show me and explain to me how he is "sustaining a link". He gave them chakra, if it proves he can keep feeding them chakra so be it. Thus far, that isn't the case. In fact, if he did in fact sustain a link to them in the way you are saying, he's going to drain his chakra even faster than before.

    IMO, you keep reaching for him to be like The Sage, but this would make him like Nagato using the Pain jutsu. The Pain jutsu wasn't created by the Sage, it was created by Nagato out of the fact that his own body was destroyed.

    What possible reason would Naruto need to control people and sustain a link? The only ninja thus far who's been able to sustain a mental link with multiple people is Inochi because his clan specializes in it. Nagato is the only one who's been able to sustain a link of feeding chakra to people and he needed equipment and the Rinnegan to do it. Is Naruto suddenly going to surpass both of them? And to what end? It's not like he's intelligent like Shikaku or Shikamaru where he'd be able to control them and know how to use their skills effectivey.
    From your answer, I think this discussion is over. The conclusion is clear from the level of your reasoning as well.

  2. #152
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    From your answer, I think this discussion is over. The conclusion is clear from the level of your reasoning as well.
    My level of reasoning? You are pulling facts out of thin air, claiming the Kyuubi chakra created a new seal when it was obvious the seal was created from using the key.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  4. #153
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    My level of reasoning? You are pulling facts out of thin air, claiming the Kyuubi chakra created a new seal when it was obvious the seal was created from using the key.
    I have no doubt about that. A simple evidence is that you are unable to understand the meaning of "New Seal". Even 3 years old babies know the meaning of the world "new". Something new is something that wasn't before.

    Another reason is that you don't even know the meaning of a key. A key is used to lock or open a door. Naruto obtained a Key from Gerotera to open the seal. It wasn't the first time that the key was used. Jiraya also used the key during the timeskip to train Naruto on Kyuubi control. The key does not do anything to the seal apart from opening and locking. Only Kyuubi chakra was the new variable.

    After Naruto got the new chakra, he lock the seal, and the seal was transform. Better, Naruto even knew how to use the new seal as if he had seen it before. These foreshadow some sort of knowledge similar to when someone unlock Rinnegan or MS. The mutation of the seal from Hakke Fujin to Rikudo, the fact that Naruto knew how the new seal work are signs of something big that you cannot ignore with some lame reasoning. For your own interest:

    Minato perform the Hakke Fuijin and gave its key to Naruto. After receiving Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto obtained the Six Paths seal. Both seals are different and they have different name. Your interpretation will not change these facts. If you cannot understand that, then agree with me that we cannot agree of the topic. Kishi will bring the final verdict.

  5. #154
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    I have no doubt about that. A simple evidence is that you are unable to understand the meaning of "New Seal". Even 3 years old babies know the meaning of the world "new". Something new is something that wasn't before.

    Another reason is that you don't even know the meaning of a key. A key is used to lock or open a door. Naruto obtained a Key from Gerotera to open the seal. It wasn't the first time that the key was used. Jiraya also used the key during the timeskip to train Naruto on Kyuubi control. The key does not do anything to the seal apart from opening and locking. Only Kyuubi chakra was the new variable.

    After Naruto got the new chakra, he lock the seal, and the seal was transform. Better, Naruto even knew how to use the new seal as if he had seen it before. These foreshadow some sort of knowledge similar to when someone unlock Rinnegan or MS. The mutation of the seal from Hakke Fujin to Rikudo, the fact that Naruto knew how the new seal work are signs of something big that you cannot ignore with some lame reasoning. For your own interest:

    Minato perform the Hakke Fuijin and gave its key to Naruto. After receiving Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto obtained the Six Paths seal. Both seals are different and they have different name. Your interpretation will not change these facts. If you cannot understand that, then agree with me that we cannot agree of the topic. Kishi will bring the final verdict.
    How did it mutate in the way you describe? How did it evolve into RK mode? The seal had been exposed to Kyuubi chakra for years, and in large amounts and never changed.

    The fact is, the Key unlocked the Hakke Fujin's potential. Naruto opened it all the way, Jiraiya never did that. By finally defeating the Kyuubi, the seal allowed Naruto to do this: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c499/12.html

    Naruto then locked the seal again here: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c499/13.html

    And the Kyuubi's Cage now evolved into this: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c499/14.html

    Notice how similar it looks to how it originally did: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c496/11.html

    And how similar the opening and closing of the seal are http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c496/12.html

    Seals simply don't come out of no where. The Kyuubi chakra isn't capable of simply manifesting a seal, that makes no sense. The "facts" you are saying, are simply your interpretation of what happened and aren't facts at all. The seal evolved into what it is because Naruto defeated the Kyuubi. Please show exactly where the Kyuubi's chakra manifested a new seal. Go ahead, I'll wait.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  7. #155
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    I have no doubt about that. A simple evidence is that you are unable to understand the meaning of "New Seal". Even 3 years old babies know the meaning of the world "new". Something new is something that wasn't before.
    Sasuke displaying the ability to shut off Amaterasu was called a "new power", despite Itachi showing the same ability in their battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Minato perform the Hakke Fuijin and gave its key to Naruto. After receiving Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto obtained the Six Paths seal. Both seals are different and they have different name. Your interpretation will not change these facts. If you cannot understand that, then agree with me that we cannot agree of the topic. Kishi will bring the final verdict.
    We were told that the Rikudou Sennin's seal was the source for the later Jinchuuriki seals. The seals are basically the same, and seemingly not unique given that Kirabi and the Hachibi can give advice to him.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    I didn't exactly know where to post this, but I have some very important questions. I want answers, so I will post some of my reasons for my questions. Why do you think So6Ps figure is silhouetted? Kishi went as far ahead as to draw his two sons.. Why didn't he do the same to So6P? What I think is either he has a major role to play in the end or he is not that important to the plot at all. As far as I know some silhouetted/masked characters did some important twists to the plot. 1. Akatsuki's leader turns out to be Pein who turns out to be Nagato, a somewhat important villain, 2. Tobi, aha turned out to be Obito lol anyone could've guessed, .. (Orochimaru is the final villain which is not at all surprising and we've somehow gone a little bit to how it was back in the good ol' days where valley of the end was like whoa.. Senju/Uchiha history class.)


    What I am meaning to say is, it is so much better if Naruto is just a truly great successor for all what have happened through all the stupid generations, rivalry and clashes. But, at the same time.. reincarnation doesn't mean possessing the same physical abilities, traits or roots to a clan from their past to say the least he does not require to have eyes and body of So6P's reincarnation. Reincarnation is mainly a flow of energy and the wisdom carried out through all of our past lives. So, why wouldn't Naruto be? What if the derived seal he used on Kyuubi unintentionally or unconsciously, some sort of memory/wisdom that is stored inside Naruto's mind?

    I understand THE 8 trigrams seal is just how it was created to be. But then, why does kurama seem so surprised? 1) Either he thinks Minato was such a genius. 2) Or he realizes Naruto should have some unbeknownst relation to So6P 3)Or he's simply baffled that giving his chakra to Naruto could do such a thing. Since Kishi heavily uses Shinto beliefs and Shin Buddhism, it is not very hard to believe he decided to do something like this.


    Then again, what's up with all the Hashirama and Madara talk? Why is it so important? Why Kakashi and Obito, Naruto and Sasuke? So far Hashirama only had wood elements. But now we do see he was a sage, too. It was EMS against Senjutsu + wood element. But now, it is Rinnegan against the same jutsu. How about Sasuke: it's a very manipulative EMS and Naruto Kyuubi mode. But to defeat someone like Madara's caliber Hashirama has to be a much more stronger opponent. Which I don't think would be easy, now. And at the same while, Orochimaru is plotting from the behind. I think he would be much more harder to handle.


    While Madara awakened the Rinnegan and both him and Hashirama turning out to be much more superior and stronger shinobi than Naruto and Sasuke, I believe that there will be a chance that Naruto turns out to be So6P's reincarnation or another Sage of his calibre. Either Sasuke would realize his intentions were not very meaningful, on the brink of his death ask Naruto to take his eyes much like how Obito did or once Sasuke comes to his senses he decides to fight along with Naruto and resemble the two sons finally succeeding the true intentions of So6P should happen. While I prefer the latter, no one knows what Kishi thinks or how he might want to change the plot. So, I would like to read your answers. Possibly, the So6P being just a troll which will make more sense because even the resurrected are just hokage telling the fated clashes of Senju/Uchiha, how it brought disaster to the world and such.. Since Will of Fire seems to be the theme, I really do not see how So6P has anything to do with it. I just would like to see how the then-konoha-11 and similar shinobi carrying the teachings to the future where Naruto being the one to bring a much more clear picture to the concept of Will of Fire . It will be much simpler this being a kid's anime (*cough*), don't you think?

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Sasuke displaying the ability to shut off Amaterasu was called a "new power", despite Itachi showing the same ability in their battle.
    Indeed, it was a known power to the reader. However, for Sasuke, it was a new power. This is the meaning of new. It is specific to each person. Something that is new to me can be old to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    We were told that the Rikudou Sennin's seal was the source for the later Jinchuuriki seals. The seals are basically the same, and seemingly not unique given that Kirabi and the Hachibi can give advice to him.
    DOes Rikudo's seal being the source of all seals means that all seals are the same as Rikudo's? No, no, and no. Killer Bee commented on the strength of Naruto's seal compared to his. Kushina explained how Minato devised Naruto's seal from the Uzumaki seals she taught him. And clearly, the Rikudo seal give a brand new effect compared to the older 8 tigrams seals.

    ---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SagewhatSage View Post
    I didn't exactly know where to post this, but I have some very important questions. I want answers, so I will post some of my reasons for my questions. Why do you think So6Ps figure is silhouetted? Kishi went as far ahead as to draw his two sons.. Why didn't he do the same to So6P? What I think is either he has a major role to play in the end or he is not that important to the plot at all. As far as I know some silhouetted/masked characters did some important twists to the plot. 1. Akatsuki's leader turns out to be Pein who turns out to be Nagato, a somewhat important villain, 2. Tobi, aha turned out to be Obito lol anyone could've guessed, .. (Orochimaru is the final villain which is not at all surprising and we've somehow gone a little bit to how it was back in the good ol' days where valley of the end was like whoa.. Senju/Uchiha history class.)
    I think the silhouette itself does not mean anything apart from concealing the identity of the characters. Shadowing does the same. In facts, Rikudo senin, Nagato, and Obito were already doing their role in the manga and we all are aware of it. The fact that Nagato was hidden was to conceal his Uzumaki ID, whcih we clearly linked to the possibility of Naruto having Rinnegan. Obito being hidden made the manga interesting since it brought a nice plot twist for Kakashi and the Uchiha. Similarly, Rikudo's origin is being discussed across all forums as to whether he is Uzumaki or not. I personally think Uzumaki and Namikaze will play great role in the ending, though many believe that Namikaze is not a clan. Check - Shimura is now a clan. It seems that fodders do not become Hokage!


    Quote Originally Posted by SagewhatSage View Post
    What I am meaning to say is, it is so much better if Naruto is just a truly great successor for all what have happened through all the stupid generations, rivalry and clashes. But, at the same time.. reincarnation doesn't mean possessing the same physical abilities, traits or roots to a clan from their past to say the least he does not require to have eyes and body of So6P's reincarnation. Reincarnation is mainly a flow of energy and the wisdom carried out through all of our past lives. So, why wouldn't Naruto be? What if the derived seal he used on Kyuubi unintentionally or unconsciously, some sort of memory/wisdom that is stored inside Naruto's mind?
    Can you really separate possessing someone wisdom from his power? Can you say that Naruto can do what the SO6P did without having similar power? Do you really think that Naruto having Rikudo's will would matter if he does not have subsequent power to fulfill that will?
    Well, I will not stop pushing the nail deep down. I think that soon or later, Naruto will have power greater or similar to Rikudo. I think that the sooner the fandom will accept, the more they will enjoy the rest of the manga. From using a seal we have never seen before to converting Kyuubi chakra and sealing into other shinobi, you can see that Naruto is obtaining power from somewhere offscreen. Unless Kishi shows that Jiraya taught him before, the only explanation I can give his that he has some knowledge burried in him - a sort of Rinnegan.

    Quote Originally Posted by SagewhatSage View Post
    I understand THE 8 trigrams seal is just how it was created to be. But then, why does kurama seem so surprised? 1) Either he thinks Minato was such a genius. 2) Or he realizes Naruto should have some unbeknownst relation to So6P 3)Or he's simply baffled that giving his chakra to Naruto could do such a thing. Since Kishi heavily uses Shinto beliefs and Shin Buddhism, it is not very hard to believe he decided to do something like this.
    I recall Madara telling Obito he will teach him Rikudo Jutsu. There is something that people mistaken usually. Rikudo = six paths, and Sennin = Sage. A sage mean literally knowledge, and I have discussed in other forum that since the beginning of this series, there have been only three to 4 people that have acted like true sage (not Senjutsu): Hashirama, Minato, and Naruto. Then, I can add Itachi to some extent, but I disagree with him on slaughtering the Uchiha (though this might actually justify his title of sage). Among these 4, Hashirama and Naruto are really goofy, but you can see that when critical decision appears before them, they can really become wise. We know for Hashirama with the idea of Konoha. For Naruto, we have seen him even when he was a kid every time he said he would prove his existence by making the people acknowledge him. We saw that when he faced Nagato. We can even see that when he make the difference between Nagato and the other Akatsuki. Itachi was praised by Hiruzen as such, and I actually like his dialogues. Until now, the real sage to me have been Minato in every aspect, and I am pretty sure everyone can see what I mean. From insight to using his brain in battle, this guy is the true meaning of genius and wisdom.

    In my opinion, Naruto is surpassing all of them in terms of power and judgement, and I think we will see it very soon. In the past, I used to say that Kishi does not give lot of Jutsu to Naruto because Naruto will obtain a power that will make him know a lot of jutsu without learning. It sound like Rinnegan, but it could be something else. Kyuubi saying Rikudo prove my opinion, and I think it is clear.

    One thing I have also noticed is that Naruto in BM can move faster and track better than a simple Sharingan. We even saw that in one tail cloak, he could outperform 2 tomoes. Given all the Jutsu Naruto has seen on the battlefield including Rinnegan, I will not be surprised to see him knowing everything. A simple example is matching the chakra he gave to the shinobi to each one of them. How did Naruto find out the unique trait of the chakra of each shinobi? I think it has to do with a special chakra detector, and I believe Kishi went back to Sasuke to keep things balanced.


    Quote Originally Posted by SagewhatSage View Post
    Then again, what's up with all the Hashirama and Madara talk? Why is it so important? Why Kakashi and Obito, Naruto and Sasuke? So far Hashirama only had wood elements. But now we do see he was a sage, too. It was EMS against Senjutsu + wood element. But now, it is Rinnegan against the same jutsu. How about Sasuke: it's a very manipulative EMS and Naruto Kyuubi mode. But to defeat someone like Madara's caliber Hashirama has to be a much more stronger opponent. Which I don't think would be easy, now. And at the same while, Orochimaru is plotting from the behind. I think he would be much more harder to handle.
    Your conclusion is the one usually given by those who don't understand the logic of the manga, and specifically, Naruto's power. I think people are underrating Kyuubi's+Naruto's power. Right now, I can guarantee that Naruto is far above Sasuke, and even Madara will be beaten with mild difficulties. Madara will be beaten by Naruto before the alliance, all the Kages, and Sasuke and co. Naruto will be acknowledge by all the previous kages, and he will face a combination of Oro and Sasuke in the last arc. If kishi misses this, he will make his manga lose something even better than current arc. The Oro+Sasuke vs Naruto arc will validate Orochimaru's existence.


    Quote Originally Posted by SagewhatSage View Post
    While Madara awakened the Rinnegan and both him and Hashirama turning out to be much more superior and stronger shinobi than Naruto and Sasuke, I believe that there will be a chance that Naruto turns out to be So6P's reincarnation or another Sage of his calibre. Either Sasuke would realize his intentions were not very meaningful, on the brink of his death ask Naruto to take his eyes much like how Obito did or once Sasuke comes to his senses he decides to fight along with Naruto and resemble the two sons finally succeeding the true intentions of So6P should happen. While I prefer the latter, no one knows what Kishi thinks or how he might want to change the plot. So, I would like to read your answers. Possibly, the So6P being just a troll which will make more sense because even the resurrected are just hokage telling the fated clashes of Senju/Uchiha, how it brought disaster to the world and such.. Since Will of Fire seems to be the theme, I really do not see how So6P has anything to do with it. I just would like to see how the then-konoha-11 and similar shinobi carrying the teachings to the future where Naruto being the one to bring a much more clear picture to the concept of Will of Fire . It will be much simpler this being a kid's anime (*cough*), don't you think?
    As I said above, without any intention to troll, I always think the best roll for Sasuke is to be tricked by Orochimaru. This will make a lot of plot validation. What Kyuubi said to Sasuke after the time skip suggested that Sasuke will be in great danger. Orochimaru's existence has to be validated. I think there will be a huge arc after the war. From now on, there are thing Kishi need to validate, and we have to wait.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Indeed, it was a known power to the reader. However, for Sasuke, it was a new power. This is the meaning of new. It is specific to each person. Something that is new to me can be old to you.
    Except it wasn't introduced as a new power specifically towards Sasuke, but in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    DOes Rikudo's seal being the source of all seals means that all seals are the same as Rikudo's? No, no, and no. Killer Bee commented on the strength of Naruto's seal compared to his. Kushina explained how Minato devised Naruto's seal from the Uzumaki seals she taught him. And clearly, the Rikudo seal give a brand new effect compared to the older 8 tigrams seals.
    Um, yeah it does. They all basically do the same thing, with minor variations. Again, without seeing it, Kirabi and the Hachibi were still able to explain how it works to Naruto. That wouldn't be possible unless the seals was similar.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    I have only read the first post. I can't be bothered to try and catch up with 150 other replies, so in case I say something which others already have pointed out, then I apologise in advance.

    In any case, you are far too liberal with your interpretations. Your so-called 'evidence' for the theory aren't as conclusive as you seem to believe.

    For starters, it is extremely improbable that Naruto differentiated the chakra to such an extent that he manipulated every source into their specific elemental affinity. Instead, I think it's more supposed to be interpreted as him giving them a strong source of chakra, corresponding to each unique flow of chakra in each person. He most likely surpassed Minato in the way that he can spread his chakra in a far greater scale, i.e. to far more people than Minato could. Minato certainly could not manipulate all five elementals, and even if you were to argue that Naruto surpassd him and there is thus the possibility that he can, your whole argument when it comes to this point seems to revert back to the fact that in order to be able to do it efficiently, Naruto HAS to be able to manipulate each element to suit each individual. Following that logic, Minato should also have been to manipulate each element. Seeing as he couldn't, your argument is flawed.

    All in all, this doesn't have to be referred to as a theory. You should've written 'fact' instead. It is fairly obvious he will end up being the next Sage of the Six Paths. They've even started to mimic his appearance when Naruto uses the Kyuubi chakra. Hell, he is now most likely the Jinchuuriki of 8 beasts and is bound to become the Jinchuuriki of the Juubi.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Quote:
    You should calm down, and keep your cool. As you said, I intended this to be a theory, but not any fanfiction. My theory is backed by solid facts, and if you tried to attacked it without doing good research, you will start to get mad when you read my response to your posts. It happens all the time with those who attack me, because they start to think I am playing God. To begin, know that I have no intention to attack you. Rather, we are just discussing.

    First, you are giving your own interpretation of the manga. Kishi said that Naruto converted Kyuubi's chakra and matched gave it to each shinobi after matching part of the chakra to the unique trait of the corresponding shinobi. This is canon, and was translated in unisson by all the translators. The english was so clear that you don't have to interpret it, except if you want to make it sound the way that is convenient for your argument. Thus, your so called interpretation above is more of a fallacy.
    So my interpretation is a "fallacy" whereas yours are "solid facts". I won't comment more on this though. All in all, your arrogance is radiating throughout each and every post.

    Quote Quote:
    From the manga, the key word is unique trait. For human being, our unique trait can be matched to our DNA sequence. As for Shinobi chakra, there is no clear definition. However, from the manga, we know that each shinobi's chakra is bent towards a particular element - water, earth, etc, or mixture of few of them. THat a shinobi can understand all elements is not impossible. That a shinobi can see the chakra composition is not impossible. Besides, in order to perform elemental Jutsu, a Shinobi produce a chakra that has been nature transformed to produce that element. Naruto knows very well how to manipulate the nature of a chakra as he learned with FRS. Therefore, if he has mastered chakra control, he can also manipulate the chakra to produce any other element given the richness of his own chakra (Uzumaki) and Kyuubi's.
    No offence, but your theory is mainly assumptions. If the uniqueness of chakra is linked to the elements, then, by extension, there should at most be 5! or 120 different chakra types. How do you explain the fact that, according to the very panel that you love to post, Naruto matches it to each INDIVIDUAL'S unique trait? Based on that, it is obvious that there is more to the unique chakra traits than simply the elemental type.

    Yes, it's not impossible for a character to see chakra composition, but last time I checked, Naruto did not have the Byakugan. Also, if we're dealing with logical inaccuracy, your conclusion above is neither valid, nor necessarily true. You're saying that because Naruto has mastered chakra control and his chakra supply is enormous, he should be able to produce any other elemental type. It is not something you can conclude based on your two premises. Kisame also had an enormous chakra reserve, and clearly, he was very skilled at chakra control too (he used water jutsus very proficiently, as an example). How come he wasn't able to use any other elements? Again, there is more to this than simply chakra magnitude. Otherwise, Kekkai Genkai wouldn't be anything special.

    The other variable is how Naruto know the unique traits of each shinobi. There are two possibilities: (1) He saw them using their elements before, or (2) his BM mode gives him eyes that can differentiate chakra nature, or even possible solution is that he know can feel people chakra just like Tobirama and Minato. Recall that in SM, Naruto was able to tell that Kakashi was dead because he couldn't sense his chakra.

    Quote Quote:
    Second, your point is too shallow when you compare Naruto to Minato. In the fisrt place, Minato never converted someone chakra. Minato sealed part of his chakra in Naruto so that he can appear in Naruto while Naruto sealed the chakra so that the shinobi can use it. Here the two methods and the chakra sealed are different.

    - Naruto give fuel to someone to use with is car. If the car uses Diesel, Naruto need to give them Diesel. This is very simple to understand.
    - Minato does not do the same. Rather, he place a car full of its own fuel in a guarage with its own driver so that the car can be driven in a particular period.

    Clearly, the gap between Naruto and Minato is now very huge. Minato has fallen far behind Naruto and there is not any ground for comparison anymore. The truth is that right now, not only Naruto can determine the nature of the chakra someone is using, but he can also produce exactly what he sees. This is clear.
    These are all assumptions where you believe that you have a perfect understandings of how it works. For all we know, the essence in both methods are the same. Even the Kyuubi itself stated it: "Minato.. He's learned the EXACT same method you used when you passed your chakra to him as a child". It seems like Naruto has simply used the method in a much bigger scale, hence the "surpassed" aspect of the panel.

    As a whole, Naruto is a predictable manga. Naruto will be the new Rikudo Sennin, there's no doubt about it. It is clear by simply comparing his appearance during the influence of the Kyuubi with the Rikudo Sennin's. Your outlined reasons, however, are flawed.

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  17. #161
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww
    As you already noticed, I am not saying that the unique trait of someone chakra is just the element. However, here, the element is the most prominant factor. The reason is that Hashirama gave ready to use chakra. This mean the shinobi will not mold it anymore.
    That's completely inaccurate. If the chakra was already molded it would not be able to be changed into other forms. He gave them basic chakra that they can use. He gave them NOTHING in the form of elemental affinity, kekkei genkai, kekkei touta, shape manipulation, or onmyouton. The ninja themselves mold the chakra based on THEIR own abilities.

    Quote Quote:
    You should understand that even those who have the same affinity do not have the same chakra composition. There are 5 elements, and each one of them is present in any shinobi, either in large amount or trace of it.

    This is also innacurate. A ninja is born with ONE element they are affinite to, and through training are capable of gaining proficiency with others. Unless they are born with a kekkei genkai which allows compound elements or birth with a special element.

    Quote Quote:
    It is said that a Jounin can have a minimum of 2 elements. Kakashi has four if I am not mistakening.
    This is also innacurate. Kakashi has 3 elements. Lightning, water, and earth. And it's also wrong that Jounin "can have a minimum of 2 elements". It's stated that most jounin can USE atleast 2 elements. This is because they've trained throughout their lives and managed to perfect a second element on top of the one they usually use. Because it takes years and years to do such a thing for the average ninja, most Jounin don't reach beyond 2 elements. Kakashi is a genius, so he managed 3. Sasuke and Itachi are geniuses and have acquired 2 far earlier than the average Jounin would. One of them thanks to being Uchiha. The other thanks to being naturally affinite to it.

    Quote Quote:
    Another factor is the density of the chakra that can vary from one person to another. As I said, the chakra affinity is the one that stand out. If you want someone to perform fire Jutsu, you will not give him a water element chakra.
    Once again this is completely innacurate, because basic chakra has no elemental affinity. There's only ONE type of chakra, and it's just that: chakra. Chakra takes no elemental affinity until the person using that chakra uses elementalization to change it into an element. Naruto wouldn't give water chakra to a fire user because he is incapable of doing so. He gives them basic, non-elemental chakra that that person then uses to change into whatever element they want.

    You've absolutely nothing in the manga to prove otherwise. And even if he were capable of granting elemental chakra to people, the literal only element he could grant is wind, because it's the only elementalization he is capable of performing.

    TL;DR: stop making things up.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    That's completely inaccurate. If the chakra was already molded it would not be able to be changed into other forms. He gave them basic chakra that they can use. He gave them NOTHING in the form of elemental affinity, kekkei genkai, kekkei touta, shape manipulation, or onmyouton. The ninja themselves mold the chakra based on THEIR own abilities.




    This is also innacurate. A ninja is born with ONE element they are affinite to, and through training are capable of gaining proficiency with others. Unless they are born with a kekkei genkai which allows compound elements or birth with a special element.



    This is also innacurate. Kakashi has 3 elements. Lightning, water, and earth. And it's also wrong that Jounin "can have a minimum of 2 elements". It's stated that most jounin can USE atleast 2 elements. This is because they've trained throughout their lives and managed to perfect a second element on top of the one they usually use. Because it takes years and years to do such a thing for the average ninja, most Jounin don't reach beyond 2 elements. Kakashi is a genius, so he managed 3. Sasuke and Itachi are geniuses and have acquired 2 far earlier than the average Jounin would. One of them thanks to being Uchiha. The other thanks to being naturally affinite to it.



    Once again this is completely innacurate, because basic chakra has no elemental affinity. There's only ONE type of chakra, and it's just that: chakra. Chakra takes no elemental affinity until the person using that chakra uses elementalization to change it into an element. Naruto wouldn't give water chakra to a fire user because he is incapable of doing so. He gives them basic, non-elemental chakra that that person then uses to change into whatever element they want.

    You've absolutely nothing in the manga to prove otherwise. And even if he were capable of granting elemental chakra to people, the literal only element he could grant is wind, because it's the only elementalization he is capable of performing.

    TL;DR: stop making things up.
    No. There's no such thing as non-elemental chakra. Everyone's chakra has it's own element. That's the reason why kakashi let naruto used the paper chakra to know his element/affinity before their shape manipulation training.

    And no. We've seen kakashi used the fire, lightning, water and earth. So it means he can used at least 4 elements.

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  20. #163
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    And no. We've seen kakashi used the fire, lightning, water and earth. So it means he can used at least 4 elements.
    He has never not once used a katon in the manga. The anime does not count. So you're dead wrong there.

    ---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. There's no such thing as non-elemental chakra. Everyone's chakra has it's own element. That's the reason why kakashi let naruto used the paper chakra to know his element/affinity before their shape manipulation training.
    Everyone has an affinity they are aligned to, but to use that affinity they have to change their normal chakra into that element. The combination of physical and spiritual energy simply creates normal chakra. Once that chakra is created, you have to turn it into an element. The element you are most easily able to turn it into is your affinity. If you have a kekkai genkai, you can do this with two or more elements with the same amount of ease.

    The paper test tells you what element you are aligned to. But when you create chakra normally, that chakra is simply chakra, it has no affinity, it is not wind, its is not earth, it is pure chakra (energy).

    If everyone's regular chakra had an element, it would look and act different, like elemental chakra does. But regular chakra doesn't, it all behaves the same way.
    Last edited by Delbi; April 01, 2013 at 08:03 PM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  22. #164
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member IChallengeYou!'s Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    After going through the hell of knowing the background stories of Obito, Madara and Hashirama, I cannot even begin to imagine what kind of atrocity SO6P is going to be. If that awful day will ever come, I wish that Naruto would get himself baited out by a huge pile of ramen and ass (both genders), thus I won't need to submerge myself into a story which volume could be compared to a shallow puddle of cat piss.

    The hunt for the Red October this won't be. NEVER AGAIN. No!

    I know you're reading this, Kishimoto.

    No more bullshit flashbacks.

    NO MORE.


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  24. #165
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Your argument is rather unclear. Are you also denying that each chakra already has the element that defines it affinity? well, you certainly are rewriting the manga if it is the case. the reason is that the detector can clearly tell the element without any prior manipulation. of course, if i become too critical, i will get banned, but just want to let you know about chapter 315 and 316.
    No, because if each chakra aligned to an element than no one would be able to use more than one. The fact that chakra can be formed into separate elements lets us know that no chakra is simply aligned one way. Rather, each chakra leans more heavily in one direction than it does others, and there is where we get affinities. To say that this person has fire chakra or this person has earth chakra is incorrect. Rather, you say they have an affinity for fire or earth, meaning they can use it better than any other element in their arsenal.

    It has to be noted that even among people with affinities, there are degrees of power. For example, Zabuza is a suiton user, but so are Kisame and Tobirama. Yet, their level of control over the element far eclipse Zabuza's. You could attribute this to practice, but not all things need practice, so things just come easier for some than others. A perfect example is Naruto and Sage Mode. He perfected it in short time, yet Jiraiya who used it for years never perfected it.

    The notion that Naruto can out of the blue form chakra into any element is preposterous. Despite creating FRS, Naruto has little to no command in any other way over his own element, Futon, aside from Futon: Rasengan and putting wind chakra into trench knives.

    And you don't get banned because you are critical, we're all critical of one another. My guess is you get banned because you are very pompous and you have an extreme attitude and insult people on a regular basis. But I'm not a mod so I don't know the exact reasons, nor do I care.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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