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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
FYI, you have an option to ignore posts or not reply to it. No need to get angry or anything.
Note: In chapter 314-316, Kakashi and Yamato said that people who can combine two element can be considered as KKG. I have disagree with people who take this kind of KKG literally for a long time. For example, Hashimara combine earth and water, and Mokuton was considered as KKG. Strangely, none of his descendent inherit it. This give the meaning of "can be considered" in that definition. It is not a true bloodline limit.
However, because you want to counter me at any cost, you are bringing the argument of no chakra nature but people affinity. EVen you argument is so falsely formulated that you fail to understand that for shinobi, having affinity means the same has their chakra having the same affinity. To shinobi, chakra means everything. Anyway, you can see from my reference that I am right.
When someone has become advance, he can alter his chakra nature to create new chakra nature. This is called nature transformation/manipulation. This allows an advance shinobi to create a new basic element from his chakra. You could have used this to counter me. However, as you can see, you cannot assume that all the shinobi there are advance so that they can do natural transformation of Naruto's chakra. If it was so, Naruto would not have needed to match the chakra to each person. Rather, he would have given them the same chakra and let each one alter it to create his own element.
Below, you can see that Jutsus that use elemental chakra such as earth, lighning, etc heavily related to the nature of the chakra.
Sasuke was naturally fire type because of his Uchiha blood. His own affinity was lighning, and he did not have to do nature transformation to get it.
Conclusion: A shinobi's affinity is the same as his chakra affinity/nature. Each shinobi has his basic element which the most predominant element. With advance chakra control, one can transform his own chakra to create new elements. This is why people like Kakshi has more than one. Some people are born with more than one chakra nature - example Sasuke.
I think I have given many hints already to show that Naruto is transforming his chakra to much each person elemental affinity. You say that Lee receive the same chakra as everyone. Well, Lee does not use chakra. He only uses pure stamina - physical energy. Lee has no ninja skill and it is canon.
===== From now, I think you guys should read chapters 314-315 before you attack me. A ninja that have mastery of chakra control can alter chakra to create new element. you don't have to be born with all of them =====
It was fun anyway, and I accept all my mistakes. It seems that everyone is waiting for me to make a mistake in order to insult me. As far as I am concern, I don't like discussion where people never back their argument with reference from manga. I also dislike manipulation of facts. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and I will accept it.
Last edited by so6pww; January 25, 2013 at 07:46 PM.
And healing someone deosnt really mean that the medical ninja was giving off his chakra. But rather, healing someone would replenish someone's chakra.
When naruto trained his frs, kakashi said that naruto needs to know his affinity first before doing the nature manipulation or nature transformation. (?) Yamato even explained that every chakra has its own affinity. ( something like that) so basically, naruto from the start, his chakra's affinity is already a wind. He just know that by nature manipulation or nature transformation. And I think there's no such thing as non-element chakra.
And tsunade never transfer his chakra to oonoki, but rather he send his medical chakra to heal oonoki. That's entirely different.
Well, maybe you're right. But right now, I'm just curious on kurama's explanation and reaction. There's something more on naruto's new ability that made kurama amazed that much.
---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 PM ----------
Or you dont agree that tsunade was sending his medical chakra to heal oonoki so that his body would create his own chakra for his jinton?
I concede you aren't totally wrong, but you aren't totally correct either and neither was I. In a sense we are both write and we are both wrong.
I've been trying to look at different translations, but either there is no proper way to translate what Kishi was trying to say, or he simply explained it wrong which is entirely possible.
Yamato says it himself that each person's chakra leans towards a certain type nature. But by that same token, there are ninja who can use more than one element. If this is true, then it is incorrect to say that anyone has one affinity towards one chakra, the fact is most ninja have more than one affinity, it just a matter how strong that affinity is. The paper test therefore shows one's strongest affinity, but it cannot tell what others they are capable of doing.
Definition of affinity:
A spontaneous or natural liking or sympathy for someone or something.
A similarity of characteristics suggesting a relationship, esp. a resemblance in structure between animals, plants, or languages.
You said yourself:
"Each shinobi has his basic element which the most predominant element. With advance chakra control, one can transform his own chakra to create new elements".
But, according to Tenzou and Kakashi, those with a Kekkai Genkai have more than one affinity, like Tenzou. This isn't correct. Because Sasuke lacks an elemental Kekkai Genkai but you yourself said he has two affinities. What Kakashi should have said was, those with a Kekkai Genkai can use two affinities at the same time, and thus create a fusion of elements.
The truth is, those with a Kekkai Genkai have two "primary affinities" and they can use them at the same time, as well as in conjunction with one another. Sasuke can not do this, but apparently it can be learned, hence how Onoki, who lacks a Kekkai Genkai, managed to fuse three elements to create a Kekkai Tota.
Moving on. In no translation that is good have I see Kurama say anywhere that he matched his chakra to match anyone's affinity, but to match there unique traits. What make's one's chakra unique? The balance between physical and spiritual energy most likely. I already gave an example using A and Sasuke.
So, how do we know these unique traits aren't affinities? Because while each ninja has affinities towards certain elements, some ninja can also use Yin and Yang chakra to manipulate their bodies, or use medical jutsu. That isn't an affinity, now is it?
When I said before that each person had an affinity to an element, I was half right and half wrong. Each person's chakra naturally shifts in different ways. Yet, even with that shift, it is their natural ability, that allows them to mold said chakra.
So, when we speak of the Sage who had an affinity (primary) for all elements, and the ability to fully manipulate Yin and Yang chakra, it wasn't simply that his chakra was capable of this, it was that his Rinnegan was capable of molding that chakra into anything.
This is what Naruto lacks. He can create the uniqueness of each person's chakra, meaning he can create chakra that is capable of becoming lightning, or becoming Yin or Yang, but, he does not possess the ability to mold that chakra himself.
Side track: You were correct saying that you don't need The Rinnegan to use the Sage Techniques, you were just wrong about the technique. Izanagi, is a technique that the Sage used, and while Obito, Danzou, and various Uchiha can use an inferior version of it, they can still use it.
Problem though with saying Naruto is the next Sage. He lacks the primary key to use Izanagi, the only Sage jutsu a non Rinnegan user can use. The key is the Sharigan.
So, in conclusion: It is mind understanding that each person's chakra is unique. This uniqueness is likely based on the ration of physical to spiritual energy, but it may deal with something else.
Each person's chakra leans towards elements to varying strengths, along with leaning towards Yin and Yang. However, it is a special trait of each person that allows them to utilize these affinities along with Yin and Yang. Hence why, Lee can not use ninjutsu and genjutsu, because he lacks this special triat to the point he cannot even mold chakra.
Naruto, somehow someway, is able to break down his own purified Kyuubi chakra and reconstitute to meet the needs of any person he senses. He cannot, however, use any affinities, or manipulate Yin and Yang chakra. Because Naruto's chakra, and his innate ability to use it, leans towards wind.
I rest my case, and fingers.
---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------
Normal medical ninjutsu to my understanding replenishes cells, which would be giving off physical energy to someone.
Naruto will never match Rikudou Sennin's power, ever. No matter what happens, he won't even get 200 miles close of Rikudou Sennin's power. The closest anyone has come to or will ever come to matching his power while alive was Nagato, who by his own admission said his power was nothin compared to Rikudou Sennin's. Rikudou Sennin, alone without a bijuu in him, managed to take on the Juubi, survive, seal it within him, and contain it until his death. Even after extraction, he managed to survive long enough to create a huge moon and send it so far away, after creating nine living chakra. Naruto, even with the Kyuubi, known as the most powerful split bijuu, could not beat Tobi, Madara, OR the incomplete Juubi. Talk all you want, but it'll take a wild fanfic or a majorly super asspull for Naruto to even think about matching 5% of Rikudou Sennin's power.
Right now, Naruto's not about his power, he's more the avatar of Rikudou Sennin's idealism or ideology. He's what Rikudou Sennin was, someone who wants peace and tried to establish it. Neither he nor Sasuke will ever be close to Rikudou Sennin's power. Together, they could meet 20% of it, but that's it at best.
The only person who was and will ever be closest to that power, alive, is Nagato.
I guess I am fine. I even almost edited my post, but I noticed it was not necessary. From what I read, and you restated, each person's chakra has a predominant (linking towards, or leans towards) a particular elements. Those who can combine many can be considered as KKG. My only point here is that for someone to use an elemental Jutsu, he chakra affinity must be that element.
For example, all the Uchiha have fire. They can spam it all day long without running out of it. Sasuke can do lighning, but limited compare to fire. Kakashi mentioned when seeing Kakazu that it was impossible for someone to use all five elements at his level. Later, he found out that Kakuzu connected his system to different heart.
The fact that I think Naruto can pull all five elements is purely deduction from Kyuubi's comments.
Concerning the sage techniques, I was talking about the six paths techs, not Izanagi. Izanagi was posssible to SO6P because of Juubi Yin/Yang. I think Rikudo sennin initial technique is six paths tech and that is what Madara was talking about. It does not require Rinnegan. Actually, Rinnegan make things perfect.
You will be disappointed surely. So hang up there, and wait. You asspul your argument than you usually accuse the manga to be.
Last edited by so6pww; January 26, 2013 at 02:52 AM.
well , if Roukodo senin was a super moron then I think NAruto will become closer to him ....
Naruto is still not reached Hashirama level ... as you see Madara still didn't take him seriously and Naruto has so much power up ( free super strong QB - Roukodo creature )
in best case Naruto would become 70% power of Hashirama and with Kurama ....
give Kurama power to Hashirama and Naruto won't be even near of him ...
but we knew bullshit in shounen manga , right !?
Last edited by shafagh; January 26, 2013 at 04:03 AM.
In the same way, Chouji, Shikamaru, Hinata don't use a ninjutsu that can be classified under a certain element. Well, in fact, they have never showed us any sort of tendency towards an elemental affinity. So, how did Naruto give them chakra? Even if they have affinity towards a certain element, they aren't molding that element's chakra to use their ninjutsu. If Hinata has an affinity with Fire, and Naruto gave him fire chakra, that's pretty pointless since Hinata wouldn't be doing anything with it.
This was something Minato could do with his son. Minato wasn't a Wind element user or we were never told that he had anything related to Wind, but he did the same with Naruto, who had affinity for Wind from birth. It's clear to me that it has got nothing to do with nature transformation in that sense. It's just about chakra manipulation and chakra control. If anyone who mastered it had automatic access to five elements, then, the Rinnegan would be absolutely meaningless, either.
And if hinata has an affinity to fire, and naruto gave him fire chakra, how come t'was pointless? So, from your point of view, if naruto gave hinata a fire chakra, she can't use that to her juuken/air palm because that's a fire chakra specifically to her fire jutsu. Is that what you mean? It doesn't make any sense at all.
Naruto can determine anyone's chakra. So if hinata has a fire affinity, naruto would give her a chakra that fits to her, that she can use her fire jutsu and at the same time she can use the kyubi's chakra to her other jutsu. That's hinata's unique trait. That's what naruto did to kurama's chakra, I think.
And the fact that kurama's chakra came from the juubi himself. And in case you forgot, the juubi is the one who gave a chakra to all living things. So maybe it means that kurama's chakra can be change to any affinity/element. Or maybe kurama's chakra is a combination of all elements/affinity. After all, kurama's chakra is entirely different from ninjas.
Last edited by marshall313; January 26, 2013 at 08:31 AM.
Uh, because the Juuken doesn't use fire chakra?
Hinata doesn't use fire release when she uses the Juuken. How come having a fire chakra supply (that is, if such thing is possible) will aid her?
I don't think passing a transformed chakra is possible by any means, even if Naruto can determine the affinity by himself.
In that case, if I'm not wrong, the Kyuubi was creating nature chakra. For the Kyuubi or anyone else, it doesn't matter. Chakra can be changed to any element, that is, if you have the affinity and use the nature transformation for that specific element. But there is nothing to suggest it was Naruto who changed the nature of the chakra into an elemental affinity here.
A simple consideration by yours truly, if chakra is permanently made by an element ( example, Naruto is Wind so his chakra is not normal chakra, but Wind chakra ) then why ninjas have to train their butts off to master even their primary element?
Why non-elemental jutsus like Kage Bushins don't come with an automatic element release? ( say someone destroys a Naruto clone, why don't they all are cut into pieces? )
Simply put the ninja needs to mold elemental chakra, otherwise he'll mold normal chakra.
And even, by some retarded chance, Naruto managed to do so, how could he give chakra to Gekkei Kenkai users such as Darui?
The evidence is that Kekkei Tota are genetically aquired, and he HAS one. That's the proof. Jinton isn't the Kekkei Tota. The ability to combine 3 elements is. And the wiki proves itself by having links to all the manga scans that it gets it's information from. You can't refute any of my scans, so it doesn't matter. And no, the link is not saying what you're saying. It said that he learned it from Muu and thus it MAY NOT be passed down genetically. There is no confirmation that it isn't, whatsoever.Originally Posted by so6pww
So yes, you're still wrong.
And you think people are gonna believe you over Kakashi and Yamato?Quote:
First of all, that's not the right logic to use, because not everyone in a clan has access to the clan's kekkei genkai just because they have their DNA. The Sharingan is a kekkei genkai and not every Uchiha can aquire it. Hyouton is a kekkei genkai and neither of Haku's parents could use it.Quote:
This simply means that you need more than just the genetic ability to combine these elements. You also need to be born with the correct prerequisites to use said ability. You need an untold potential. Another example being Susanoo. Sasuke, Itachi, and Madara are all the greatest geniuses in the Uchiha clan, with exceptionally potent chakra. This is why they can access abilities the average MS user can't.
Prove that there is no fuuton in that jutsu. There has never been a Rasen-shuriken that doesn't use fuuton. Prove now that there is no fuuton in it.Quote:
If you didn't want to be right at any cost, you wouldn't insult everyone that proves you wrong. You also wouldn't grasp at so many straws, DELIBERATELY mis-interperet facts inorder to give your argument a fighting chance, and flat-out lie.Quote:
Now, concede that you were wrong about Naruto being able to use fuuton with Kurama's chakra.
There, we need to make a distinction. Kekkei Genkai is possessed through genetic heritage. That is what makes it so special.
If it wasn't the case and that was something you could use through training process, Orochimaru wouldn't bother injecting Hashirama cells into test subjects. Instead, he would just go and train his nature transformation more and more and he would acquire the Wood element through the process of training alone.
What Muu passed down to Oonoki, by deduction, wasn't how to unlock the Jinton. It was because Oonoki possessed it, he probably taught him Jinton techniques and how to efficiently use the Dust element.