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Thread: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    As the title says, this concerns Naruto. I am sorry I am creating only thread on him, but I think you guys can understand - almost the last 20 chapters was about him alone. Now, let get going.

    I think that Naruto is getting closed to SO6P, and I will say why by starting with fresh intel, then bolster my argument with some past intels.

    1. Based on Mangastream/Mangahere translation, Naruto can sustain link with many shinobi

    Here is the link, and I couldn't open mangapanda on my computer.

    Spoiler show


    Though, there might be a problem in the translation, the image itself conveys the intel. We see Kyuubi chakra as one big source, and Naruto making many links that are represent as copies of Naruto. Then he connect these link to shinobis of the SA. During the connection, Naruto touch them (some people said he only passes near them).

    In his comments, Kyuubi stated that Naruto is sustaining the links. This means literally to keep the link on, which requires Naruto to send continually chakra to the people he connect to. Unlike Nagato and Madara, Naruto does not need black rod. Rather, he does it with his mind - which is represented by the inner Naruto who is standing by Kyuubi in a meditation form.

    Though I know many will think I am wrong, let go back to the past. So, let look at these.

    a. Evidence that Rinnegan is not needed to use Gedo Mazou.
    Spoiler show


    b. Evidence that Rinnegan is not needed to use six path techniques.

    Spoiler show


    In (a.) we see that only Senju DNA is Senju power is needed to control Gedo Mazou. Can we assume that Uchiha power is needed? I don't know. However, given it is a summoning, I think Senju power should be enough to summon it, then Madara's will should help to control it by funneling chakra into it. I think that is how Madara was controlling it because one of the black rod was implanted in it.

    In (b.), we see that Rinnegan is not needed to use Six path techniques. This make sense because Obito learnt it from Madara, and both of them did not have Rinnegan. However, Madara implied that his will was needed. Is it because Madara was Uchiha, or was it because he had Hashimara's power? ( not also that Kabuto compared Hashimara to Rikudo).

    We also know that in order to use six paths techs, the user need to be able to send his chakra into someone. Until now, Nagato and Obito have been using Madara's will. From chapter 617, I think Naruto's will can also send chakra into other people after creating a link with them by touching them.


    2. Chapter 617 implicitly foreshadows that Naruto will master the five elemental chakra affinities (maybe has already mastered it)

    Some people would avoid this topic, but I have discussed it long on other forums. So let look at this image.

    Spoiler show


    First, check the definition of adept from dictionary.com below:

    Quote Quote:
    a·dept   [adj. uh-dept; n. ad-ept, uh-dept] ,adjective

    1. very skilled; proficient; expert: an adept juggler.
    noun ad·ept
    2. a skilled or proficient person; expert.
    So Kyuubi said that Naruto has become so skilled that he can mold his chakra to match the unique trait of each individual. My interpretation is that the word unique traits would be synonyms of DNA. However, in the context of chakra, I will say that it is the uniqueness of their chakra. This mean if the chakra is lightning based, Naruto can make a lightning chakra. If it has initially earth element, Naruto can make earth element chakra, and so on.

    While this seems intriguing, I can accept it because Kakashi said that a ninja at a jouning level can create new affinity. Thus Kyuubi's statement is consistent with my analysis. Naruto has become skilled beyond regular jounin in terms of chakra manipulation. Thus he can create new affinity. This also is consistent with the term "conversion" used in chapter 616.

    3. Intel from older chapters.

    c. Kyuubi foreshadowed that Naruto will have six path techniques

    Spoiler show


    The word Rikudo here means six paths. The seal is a six path techniques. Notice that in Naruto's consciousness, Naruto does it by creating a lock with his mind. I brought this fact because in Naruto's mind, he can only do something if and only if he knows how to do that actually. Rasengan are same in his mind, and kage bushin is the same.

    d. Naruto forshadowed to be connected to SO6P
    Spoiler show


    So these are my opinions on Naruto's evolution. I would like to add more, but I will wait for comments.
    Last edited by so6pww; March 30, 2013 at 12:09 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    1.
    a) You cannot summon the Mazou without the Rinnegan. Controlling it with Senju DNA Obito had and summoning it are different things. We don't need an assumption. Recall the page Zetsu shows Nagato to Obito. Nagato was introduced as the only person besides Madara to be able to summon the Gedo Mazou.

    b) Don't really understand the reasoning here. Without the Rinnegan, you cannot use the Six Paths, thus, their techniques.

    2. Kyuubi states that Naruto has learned the same method as Minato. Since Minato didn't master all elements, either, I don't think it's related with it.

    3.
    c) One counter-argument can easily be made, since the Rikudou Sennin never used such a technique over Kyuubi when he was alive.

    d) The strongest proof that there is a connection. If he can get the Rinnegan somehow, Naruto can become the successor of the great sage by that way.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    1.
    a) You cannot summon the Mazou without the Rinnegan. Controlling it with Senju DNA Obito had and summoning it are different things. We don't need an assumption. Recall the page Zetsu shows Nagato to Obito. Nagato was introduced as the only person besides Madara to be able to summon the Gedo Mazou.
    As always, everyone like to disregard facts. I gave you a fact that show that one can use the mazou even without the Rinnegan. It is well written, and from Madara. I don't know how you can refuse such evidence. It is clear that you can use it, but maybe not as well as someone who has Rinnegan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    b) Don't really understand the reasoning here. Without the Rinnegan, you cannot use the Six Paths, thus, their techniques.
    WHere is it stated that you cannot use six path without Rinnegan. I gave you a link where Madara said he will teach Obito the six path techniques. In that panel, you can see that none of them has Rinnegan. This clearly mean that Madara can perform six path techniques even without Rinnegan, and Obito to. It even make sense for Rikudo to have used six paths techs without Rinnegan because until now, it seems that Rinnegan originated from Juubi. Thus Rikudo has to have his six path at least to fight him.

    Besides, it is the the Sage of Six Paths: the key here is sage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    2. Kyuubi states that Naruto has learned the same method as Minato. Since Minato didn't master all elements, either, I don't think it's related with it.
    Now, you are really getting lazy here. First, he said that Naruto has learned the same methods as Minato. Then, he also said that Naruto has surpassed both Minato and Kushina. He continue to add how Naruto has become so expert that he can match each shinobi's chakra. This is the how Naruto surpassed his parents. This is so clear, and obvious that you kind of disappoint me here. Don't fall in denial like most people when they are faced with subject related to Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    3.
    c) One counter-argument can easily be made, since the Rikudou Sennin never used such a technique over Kyuubi when he was alive.
    There is no counter-argument. Rather, there is a fact that Kyuubi know that there is a seal called six path. Again, you are in denial. Worse, by saying that Rikkudo nether used it on Kyuubi, you are making an empty assumption. Where did you see that Rikudo never used the seal in front of Kyuubi. The only thing we know is that Kyuubi know a seal called Rikudo, and this prove he has seen it before. Also, for Kyuubi to compare Naruto to Minato, it mean that Kyuubi can identify whatever he has seen before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post

    d) The strongest proof that there is a connection. If he can get the Rinnegan somehow, Naruto can become the successor of the great sage by that way.
    This is a connection, but it does not mean that Naruto will have any Jutsu similar to SO6P. This only says that the SO6P talked about Naruto to the beast. In my opinion, the previous evidence are stronger. Naruto has a six path seal, he can mold the five elemental chakra, and he is Uzumaki. From that, you can see that Naruto is getting closed to something big. My best guess is that Naruto will start performing the techniques that Rikudo used to kick Juubi's ass in the final Vs with Juubi.


    My initial post was clear, and I was expecting one to read it as a landmark. For a comment, I think you did a very poor job because you are the last person I would ever have expected such comment from. I could have accepted such comment from ninjabolt.
    Last edited by so6pww; January 24, 2013 at 12:48 PM.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    this whole manga is being about naruto so i don't get why you said almost the last 20 chapters was about him alone while the rinnegan is important to use the gedo but as madara said obito can use gedo because he got uchiha and hashirama's cell in him and we had a thread of this http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...The-Six-Path-s since june 16 2010, i guess you're new..
    i know you're a naruto lover and i don't hate naruto, i actually like the way , naruto work hard through life and came all the way up through hard work but everything changed lately and you don't really accepted criticism about naruto even if people give you proves and facts.
    living in the darkness and now with a new light, i will raise to a new beginning...

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    As always, everyone like to disregard facts. I gave you a fact that show that one can use the mazou even without the Rinnegan. It is well written, and from Madara. I don't know how you can refuse such evidence. It is clear that you can use it, but maybe not as well as someone who has Rinnegan.
    I'm not disregarding anything. I merely gave you a manga fact that no one can summon the Mazou without the Rinnegan.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    WHere is it stated that you cannot use six path without Rinnegan. I gave you a link where Madara said he will teach Obito the six path techniques. In that panel, you can see that none of them has Rinnegan. This clearly mean that Madara can perform six path techniques even without Rinnegan, and Obito to. It even make sense for Rikudo to have used six paths techs without Rinnegan because until now, it seems that Rinnegan originated from Juubi. Thus Rikudo has to have his six path at least to fight him.

    Besides, it is the the Sage of Six Paths: the key here is sage.
    By that logic, there is no reason to track Nagato's corpse and take his eyes, since Obito can use the Rinnegan jutsu without having the Rinnegan.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Now, you are really getting lazy here. First, he said that Naruto has learned the same methods as Minato. Then, he also said that Naruto has surpassed both Minato and Kushina. He continue to add how Naruto has become so expert that he can match each shinobi's chakra. This is the how Naruto surpassed his parents. This is so clear, and obvious that you kind of disappoint me here. Don't fall in denial like most people when they are faced with subject related to Naruto.
    Exactly. He uses the same method and uses it more efficiently is what I get out of that statement. I just failed to see the connection to the elemental mastery in that. It looked to me it was something different from the elemental differences, but rather, the chakra forming a unique key for each person. Say, two lightning users could still have different chakra shapes was my interpretation.
    I'm not denying his chakra manipulation surpassed Minato's, though. It is clearly stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    There is no counter-argument. Rather, there is a fact that Kyuubi know that there is a seal called six path. Again, you are in denial. Worse, by saying that Rikkudo nether used it on Kyuubi, you are making an empty assumption. Where did you see that Rikudo never used the seal in front of Kyuubi. The only thing we know is that Kyuubi know a seal called Rikudo, and this prove he has seen it before. Also, for Kyuubi to compare Naruto to Minato, it mean that Kyuubi can identify whatever he has seen before.
    I don't know. Sorry if that sounded empty, but it's a very easy deduction, since the Kyuubi never fought the Rikudou Sennin, knowing that he was the father-like figure for the tailed beasts.
    If I was indeed in denial, I would try to refute the fact that the Kyuubi seemed familiar with the seal itself, but I didn't, since it's apparently that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    This is a connection, but it does not mean that Naruto will have any Jutsu similar to SO6P. This only says that the SO6P talked about Naruto to the beast. In my opinion, the previous evidence are stronger. Naruto has a six path seal, he can mold the five elemental chakra, and he is Uzumaki. From that, you can see that Naruto is getting closed to something big. My best guess is that Naruto will start performing the techniques that Rikudo used to kick Juubi's ass in the final Vs with Juubi.
    He's probably the one that would lead the beasts to unity the sage talked about. Therefore, I see this as a strong evidence. Maybe not being an Uzumaki, since he's not the only Uzumaki, and not the one that could use all types of elemental ninjutsu, either (Nagato), but rather, the path he has taken on is recognized by the beasts. I don't think they are referring to how great Naruto's chakra or how cool his ninjutsu is. They are simply talking about the ideology he reflected upon them.
    Since there are no living witnesses to that battle, Naruto will have to figure whatever jutsu the sage used on his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    My initial post was clear, and I was expecting one to read it as a landmark. For a comment, I think you did a very poor job because you are the last person I would ever have expected such comment from. I could have accepted such comment from ninjabolt.
    Apologies, again, if it didn't live up to your expectations. Granted, I'd admit it was too sharp to elaborate on, but I could live with that.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    1. I'm not disregarding anything. I merely gave you a manga fact that no one can summon the Mazou without the Rinnegan.
    2. By that logic, there is no reason to track Nagato's corpse and take his eyes, since Obito can use the Rinnegan jutsu without having the Rinnegan.
    1. You should understand that Madara could control Gedo Mazou without having Rinnegan. This is a fact from the manga. Without any rinnegan, he was using the power of the mazou to create the zetsu and control them as his own pawn. He even said that Obito could do the same. While Obito did not use the Mazou after meeting Nagato, this cannot be proof of the impossibility to use Mazou without Rinnegan. I even gave you a fact in which Madara said it is possible. Besides, note that Obito was having double ID in order to control Nagato. Thus he couldn't go on competition with him.

    1. Finally, you should also take into account Madara's comment in the image I gave.

    While you can use the gedo Mazou without Rinnegan, Madara said that you will not be able to use it well. This mean that from Madara's experience, you can be able to use it without Rinnegan, but you need Rinnegan for a better use. This justify why Obito took Nagato's eyes.

    This is why your argument does not make any sense.

    P.S: Finally, you should also understand that this explanation is based only on Madara's experience. Maybe Madara is strong enough to use it, but someone weaker than him might not be able to use it. Besides, it can happen that someone stronger than Madara can use it perfectly without Rinnegan
    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Exactly. He uses the same method and uses it more efficiently is what I get out of that statement. I just failed to see the connection to the elemental mastery in that. It looked to me it was something different from the elemental differences, but rather, the chakra forming a unique key for each person. Say, two lightning users could still have different chakra shapes was my interpretation. I'm not denying his chakra manipulation surpassed Minato's, though. It is clearly stated.
    I can understand all the people who refuse to see Naruto's growth, but the fact is Naruto has reach a high level:

    0. He mastered Rasengan, which is said to be the highest level of shape manipulation
    1. Mixed wind with his chakra to form fuiton Rasenchuriken
    2. He mastered SM better than Jiraya - balanced three different source of energy.
    3. He has been making any sort of shape manipulation with Kyuubi's chakra - chakra arm, chakra tails, etc.

    If after all this someone thought there is something Naruto does not understand about chakra, I will not bother discussing because I know why it can happen. However, in the 617 chapter, the explanation of the result is clear. I don't see another explanation of matching each person unique trait than mastering all five elemental nature. This is a direct deduction because Naruto gave them a ready to use chakra for their jutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't know. Sorry if that sounded empty, but it's a very easy deduction, since the Kyuubi never fought the Rikudou Sennin, knowing that he was the father-like figure for the tailed beasts.
    If I was indeed in denial, I would try to refute the fact that the Kyuubi seemed familiar with the seal itself, but I didn't, since it's apparently that way.
    There is no evidence that Rikudo never fought someone in front of the beast. Moreover, Obito said that Rikudo took Juubi's Yin and Yang and created the bijus. Then he sealed the Juubi's body in the moon. This happens after the birth of the beast, and I can suggest that Rikudo performed the seal while they were watching.

    Also, you don't have to fight someone to know their moves. You can hear them talk about it, or get intel from someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    He's probably the one that would lead the beasts to unity the sage talked about. Therefore, I see this as a strong evidence. Maybe not being an Uzumaki, since he's not the only Uzumaki, and not the one that could use all types of elemental ninjutsu, either (Nagato), but rather, the path he has taken on is recognized by the beasts. I don't think they are referring to how great Naruto's chakra or how cool his ninjutsu is. They are simply talking about the ideology he reflected upon them.
    Since there are no living witnesses to that battle, Naruto will have to figure whatever jutsu the sage used on his own.
    Recall that is not only about having the same ideologies as Rikudo. It is also about fixing what Rikudo did not. As you can read here, Rikudo failed to subdue the Juubi, and he asked the bijus to look for what is real strength.

    Spoiler show


    Thus there the will and the power as well. There is the power to make the Bijus a single will, and a better being.

  7. #7
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    1. You should understand that Madara could control Gedo Mazou without having Rinnegan. This is a fact from the manga. Without any rinnegan, he was using the power of the mazou to create the zetsu and control them as his own pawn. He even said that Obito could do the same. While Obito did not use the Mazou after meeting Nagato, this cannot be proof of the impossibility to use Mazou without Rinnegan. I even gave you a fact in which Madara said it is possible. Besides, note that Obito was having double ID in order to control Nagato. Thus he couldn't go on competition with him.

    1. Finally, you should also take into account Madara's comment in the image I gave.

    While you can use the gedo Mazou without Rinnegan, Madara said that you will not be able to use it well. This mean that from Madara's experience, you can be able to use it without Rinnegan, but you need Rinnegan for a better use. This justify why Obito took Nagato's eyes.

    This is why your argument does not make any sense.

    P.S: Finally, you should also understand that this explanation is based only on Madara's experience. Maybe Madara is strong enough to use it, but someone weaker than him might not be able to use it. Besides, it can happen that someone stronger than Madara can use it perfectly without Rinnegan
    Honestly, I don't know where it is stated that Madara summoned the Mazou without the Rinnegan. He is portrayed with the Rinnegan even shortly before his death in his talk with Obito. If you have the reference to that statement, I'll gladly have a look and accept the fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    I can understand all the people who refuse to see Naruto's growth, but the fact is Naruto has reach a high level:

    0. He mastered Rasengan, which is said to be the highest level of shape manipulation
    1. Mixed wind with his chakra to form fuiton Rasenchuriken
    2. He mastered SM better than Jiraya - balanced three different source of energy.
    3. He has been making any sort of shape manipulation with Kyuubi's chakra - chakra arm, chakra tails, etc.

    If after all this someone thought there is something Naruto does not understand about chakra, I will not bother discussing because I know why it can happen. However, in the 617 chapter, the explanation of the result is clear. I don't see another explanation of matching each person unique trait than mastering all five elemental nature. This is a direct deduction because Naruto gave them a ready to use chakra for their jutsu.
    Forgive my rudeness, but I won't accept a deduction over fact, since you did the same with my prior argument in the Mazou discussion.
    We don't know it holds true for each element. Only elemental ninjutsu that was used fueled by Naruto's converted Kyuubi chakra was a fuuton one, the one element Naruto has an affinity for.
    Since Naruto probably won't be learning new jutsu mid-fight, we might not get to see through this for a good while.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    There is no evidence that Rikudo never fought someone in front of the beast. Moreover, Obito said that Rikudo took Juubi's Yin and Yang and created the bijus. Then he sealed the Juubi's body in the moon. This happens after the birth of the beast, and I can suggest that Rikudo performed the seal while they were watching.

    Also, you don't have to fight someone to know their moves. You can hear them talk about it, or get intel from someone else.
    He was close to his death when he used Banbutsu Sozo to create the beasts. Such a seal isn't something to be used over human beings, wouldn't you say?
    True. It was Chibaku Tensei to seal the remnant body known as the Mazo in the creation of the moon.

    Hm, this could be true. I wonder who could those people be? Ah, perhaps the sons of the sage? They were definitely a good source of information about the Rikudou Sennin. Moreover, they could communicate with the beasts in a way today's Shinobi couldn't, because of the wall of the hatred between.
    A good proposal this is.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Recall that is not only about having the same ideologies as Rikudo. It is also about fixing what Rikudo did not. As you can read here, Rikudo failed to subdue the Juubi, and he asked the bijus to look for what is real strength.

    Spoiler show


    Thus there the will and the power as well. There is the power to make the Bijus a single will, and a better being.
    To be honest, I thought about the single entity thing for a good while, but couldn't come up with an answer on my own. Rikudou Sennin perhaps failed to subdue the Juubi, but there is no way such a beast can be allowed to roam freely in this world. He did the best in sealing it in his body. How could a being of the Juubi's scale could be made good, that is, assuming it has a consciousness.
    Just my way of thinking, but apparently, it's not taking me anywhere.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Honestly, I don't know where it is stated that Madara summoned the Mazou without the Rinnegan. He is portrayed with the Rinnegan even shortly before his death in his talk with Obito. If you have the reference to that statement, I'll gladly have a look and accept the fault.
    It is not said anywhere that Madara summoned the gedo Mazou. Madara said that he broke the seal on the gedo Mazou when he unlocked the Rinnegan, and did not eleborate it. This is how he end up with the Gedo Mazou. In addition, the tale of Obito is a tale and legend. The fact that there is still a moon after Juubi's body was obtained by Madara prove that the moon is not Juubi's body.

    In the same way there is no mention of Madara summoning Gedo Mazou,it is not said anywhere that Rinnegan is needed to summon the Gedo Mazou. As matter of fact, Nagato and Tobi used a summoning Jutsu to summon the Mazou. The summoning is the same as any other summoning, and the only thing I can say is that they have a contract with it. As you can see in the lower left panel, here, summoning Gedo Mazou is a summoning Jutsu.

    Spoiler show


    My opinion on this is that you are denying hard evidence. The only fact we have is that it is possible to use the Mazou even without Rinnegan, and that Rinnegan make the use perfect.

    It is up to you to accept this evidence or reject it. Anyone can believe what they want. Actually, I have notice that people complain on forums because they spend all they time denying the simplest facts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Forgive my rudeness, but I won't accept a deduction over fact, since you did the same with my prior argument in the Mazou discussion.
    We don't know it holds true for each element. Only elemental ninjutsu that was used fueled by Naruto's converted Kyuubi chakra was a fuuton one, the one element Naruto has an affinity for.
    Are you denying also that the chakra Naruto gave this people was already molded? Are you denying that once chakra is molded it is ready to use? Are you denying that when Naruto muched it to each shinobi, he had to respect their chakra affinity and the Justus they will use?

    How do you describe the word unique trait, and it correlation with the phrase match to each person? Can you tell me what make Kakashi unique relatively to Guy Sensei?

    Note: Don't froget we are talking about chakra - which make affinity the most simple fact. Otherwise, any other unique trait will be even more complex than nature of the chakra. Again, you can close your eyes on the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Since Naruto probably won't be learning new jutsu mid-fight, we might not get to see through this for a good while.
    Yeah , yeah, I understand. I have been saying over month that Naruto will be the true meaning of the name of the Senju - that is have thousand of Jutsus. People kept bashing me. Therefore I am not surprised by this statemnet of yours, especially, when Naruto just mastered a chakra sealing Jutsu on the same battlefield you are talking about.

    The fact is there is one thing no one can be sure about Naruto. There is a 2.5 years spent with Jiraya where he came back only with better Kage bushin and three-tail chakra cloak. My guess is that there was more in those years (speculation, but I can bet on this time-skip). Besides, I am pretty sure Kishi will explain how Naruto knew the new chakra sealing tech.

    Here is my definition of Naruto

    Naruto = legacy of (Uzumaki, Senju, and whatever Minato is). I could even add So6P.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    He was close to his death when he used Banbutsu Sozo to create the beasts. Such a seal isn't something to be used over human beings, wouldn't you say? True. It was Chibaku Tensei to seal the remnant body known as the Mazo in the creation of the moon.
    You are twisting the fact. Shibaku tensei formed the moon, and a seal was used to seal the juubi inside that moon - I guess you will ask me reference as well. With no offense, how do you come up with Shibaku tensei being a seal, especially when Nagato has used it twice in the manga?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Hm, this could be true. I wonder who could those people be? Ah, perhaps the sons of the sage? They were definitely a good source of information about the Rikudou Sennin. Moreover, they could communicate with the beasts in a way today's Shinobi couldn't, because of the wall of the hatred between.
    A good proposal this is.
    This was a speculation. Actually, it was a unnecessary one because we have hard evidence that Kurama knew the SO6P like all other beasts, and that Kurama is the one who named the seal. Do you recall when Minato wanted to seal him in Naruto. Kurama could recognize the altar and knew it was a sealing altar. This was the reason he tried to kill the baby Naruto. Kurama is the one who said that the Juubi was the progenitor of the world, and he is the one who said that it was impossible to measure Juubi's power. The later was confirmed by Naruto.

    These facts in turn show that Kurama has a very rich knowledge about the shinobi world. He might even know more than people such as Madara because he is part of Juubi. If Rikudo planned for the nine Bijus to become one again, he had to place the consciousness of the Juubi somewhere in them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    To be honest, I thought about the single entity thing for a good while, but couldn't come up with an answer on my own. Rikudou Sennin perhaps failed to subdue the Juubi, but there is no way such a beast can be allowed to roam freely in this world. He did the best in sealing it in his body. How could a being of the Juubi's scale could be made good, that is, assuming it has a consciousness.
    Just my way of thinking, but apparently, it's not taking me anywhere.
    Well, as you say, this is all speculation. Kyuubi was said to be a mass of malevolence. However, he is a goody right now. The fact is, when people don't understand something, they build any sort of theory about it. They usually focuses on what overwhelms them about the issue. Thus, I would say that Juubi is an unknown factor for now.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    It is not said anywhere that Madara summoned the gedo Mazou. Madara said that he broke the seal on the gedo Mazou when he unlocked the Rinnegan, and did not eleborate it. This is how he end up with the Gedo Mazou. In addition, the tale of Obito is a tale and legend. The fact that there is still a moon after Juubi's body was obtained by Madara prove that the moon is not Juubi's body.

    In the same way there is no mention of Madara summoning Gedo Mazou,it is not said anywhere that Rinnegan is needed to summon the Gedo Mazou. As matter of fact, Nagato and Tobi used a summoning Jutsu to summon the Mazou. The summoning is the same as any other summoning, and the only thing I can say is that they have a contract with it. As you can see in the lower left panel, here, summoning Gedo Mazou is a summoning Jutsu.

    Spoiler show


    My opinion on this is that you are denying hard evidence. The only fact we have is that it is possible to use the Mazou even without Rinnegan, and that Rinnegan make the use perfect.

    It is up to you to accept this evidence or reject it. Anyone can believe what they want. Actually, I have notice that people complain on forums because they spend all they time denying the simplest facts.
    The moon is not the actual body of the Juubi. As big as the Juubi is compared to the human, there is no way it's as big as something like moon. Just like Nagato used Chibaku Tensei to trap Naruto inside a bunch of stones, it's the same with the moon. Only the body is being summoned back, the remnants remain up in the sky.

    I believe that's what we call interpretation, but never mind, no need to argue about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Are you denying also that the chakra Naruto gave this people was already molded? Are you denying that once chakra is molded it is ready to use? Are you denying that when Naruto muched it to each shinobi, he had to respect their chakra affinity and the Justus they will use?

    How do you describe the word unique trait, and it correlation with the phrase match to each person? Can you tell me what make Kakashi unique relatively to Guy Sensei?

    Note: Don't froget we are talking about chakra - which make affinity the most simple fact. Otherwise, any other unique trait will be even more complex than nature of the chakra. Again, you can close your eyes on the fact.
    Actually, if your very first reference on the thread is true, it is indeed more complex. There are more than 5 shapes listed, therefore, I can always deduce it's not limited to affinity at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Yeah , yeah, I understand. I have been saying over month that Naruto will be the true meaning of the name of the Senju - that is have thousand of Jutsus. People kept bashing me. Therefore I am not surprised by this statemnet of yours, especially, when Naruto just mastered a chakra sealing Jutsu on the same battlefield you are talking about.

    The fact is there is one thing no one can be sure about Naruto. There is a 2.5 years spent with Jiraya where he came back only with better Kage bushin and three-tail chakra cloak. My guess is that there was more in those years (speculation, but I can bet on this time-skip). Besides, I am pretty sure Kishi will explain how Naruto knew the new chakra sealing tech.

    Here is my definition of Naruto

    Naruto = legacy of (Uzumaki, Senju, and whatever Minato is). I could even add So6P.
    So, he will use other elements' ninjutsu without giving it a try or knowing which jutsu to use or without performing hand signs? I can't really agree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    You are twisting the fact. Shibaku tensei formed the moon, and a seal was used to seal the juubi inside that moon - I guess you will ask me reference as well. With no offense, how do you come up with Shibaku tensei being a seal, especially when Nagato has used it twice in the manga?
    It's a vessel. Juubi's life force was sucked out of the thing that was imprisoned in. Chibaku Tensei formed the moon over that remnants. Chibaku Tensei isn't a seal. I didn't use the verb "seal" literally there.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    This was a speculation. Actually, it was a unnecessary one because we have hard evidence that Kurama knew the SO6P like all other beasts, and that Kurama is the one who named the seal. Do you recall when Minato wanted to seal him in Naruto. Kurama could recognize the altar and knew it was a sealing altar. This was the reason he tried to kill the baby Naruto. Kurama is the one who said that the Juubi was the progenitor of the world, and he is the one who said that it was impossible to measure Juubi's power. The later was confirmed by Naruto.

    These facts in turn show that Kurama has a very rich knowledge about the shinobi world. He might even know more than people such as Madara because he is part of Juubi. If Rikudo planned for the nine Bijus to become one again, he had to place the consciousness of the Juubi somewhere in them.
    Of course, he could know it. He had Jinchuuriki beforehand, at least in Mito and Kushina.
    He probably knows as much as the Rikudou told them, we can't know its extent, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Well, as you say, this is all speculation. Kyuubi was said to be a mass of malevolence. However, he is a goody right now. The fact is, when people don't understand something, they build any sort of theory about it. They usually focuses on what overwhelms them about the issue. Thus, I would say that Juubi is an unknown factor for now.
    Agreed with that.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    So, he will use other elements' ninjutsu without giving it a try or knowing which jutsu to use or without performing hand signs? I can't really agree with that.
    Well, he's already molding his chakra to match that of Kyuubi and of all the ninjas' chakra patterns or whatever. Pulling various new jutsu out randomly would only surprise me because it'd be coming from Mr. I own everyone with only 3 jutsu. While Naruto being able to pull elements out of his ass is ridiculous, it's possible
    REVOLUTION! FREEDOM!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Actually, if your very first reference on the thread is true, it is indeed more complex. There are more than 5 shapes listed, therefore, I can always deduce it's not limited to affinity at all.
    Here is my first reference again.

    Spoiler show


    1. You have Kyuubi's chakra on the left side geared into Naruto's chakra to show how Naruto is the channel.
    2. Then Naruto mold the chakra and make different pool of chakra depending on the person he wants to match. These boxes are not shapes. They are chakra channel that Naruto makes.
    3. Finally, each channel his geared into the chakra connection of the shinobi that correspond to it.

    You can see that if we think that unique trait is not chakra affinity, then Naruto had to match more than 5 types of chakra. Then, what will we call type of chakra. My only guess here is the elements because Naruto gave chakra to more than 10 people. WHether they are 500 or more, he had to use each elemental chakra for those with single elements, and mix them for those with more element.

    The most impressive fact here is not even matching each person's chakra. The question is how Naruto find the unique trait of each person?

    The answer to this question is the most intriguing fact of the chapter. DId he use sensing, visualization, or what? Most people would not care about this until Kishi does something, and then, they will yell asspul.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    So, he will use other elements' ninjutsu without giving it a try or knowing which jutsu to use or without performing hand signs? I can't really agree with that.
    Naruto will have plenty of development. His last opponent will involve Orochimaru, someone who is a Jutsu freak. If Naruto is really Uzumaki and the inheritor of Senju Hashimara, then Naruto will master the sealing techniques of the Uzumaki, and the scroll of sealing of the Senju. That is if the two are different.

    However, there is something that you should not forget. Naruto had the Hakke seal. As soon as he took Kurama's chakra, the seal became a Rikudo seal. Can you explain what happened? Was it a mutation? Something happened that show that the seal is not just a seal. I will not go in deep specualtion, so let stop here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    It's a vessel. Juubi's life force was sucked out of the thing that was imprisoned in. Chibaku Tensei formed the moon over that remnants. Chibaku Tensei isn't a seal. I didn't use the verb "seal" literally there.
    The why Madara used the term seal? He said he broke the seal when he unlock Rinnegan. Besides, we clearly saw that the Gedo Mazou is alive, and was only being controlled. We saw that he can cry and move. So what are you calling life force?

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Here is my first reference again.

    Spoiler show


    1. You have Kyuubi's chakra on the left side geared into Naruto's chakra to show how Naruto is the channel.
    2. Then Naruto mold the chakra and make different pool of chakra depending on the person he wants to match. These boxes are not shapes. They are chakra channel that Naruto makes.
    3. Finally, each channel his geared into the chakra connection of the shinobi that correspond to it.

    You can see that if we think that unique trait is not chakra affinity, then Naruto had to match more than 5 types of chakra. Then, what will we call type of chakra. My only guess here is the elements because Naruto gave chakra to more than 10 people. WHether they are 500 or more, he had to use each elemental chakra for those with single elements, and mix them for those with more element.

    The most impressive fact here is not even matching each person's chakra. The question is how Naruto find the unique trait of each person?

    The answer to this question is the most intriguing fact of the chapter. DId he use sensing, visualization, or what? Most people would not care about this until Kishi does something, and then, they will yell asspul.
    What you bring out isn't something I argue with. But the Kyuubi said Naruto adapted his chakra to match each individual's unique chakra traits. I don't know how we can explain it, but it's easy to say that if each individual's chakra has different traits regardless of the elemental affinity, then, what Naruto accomplished is a much more greater thing in hindsight.

    I think it has got to be some sort of sensing. Even if it was related to elemental affinity, Naruto didn't have any knowledge about that prior to chakra distribution. He somehow connected his own chakra to his comrades' chakra pool, but it's a mystery how he exactly did that.


    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Naruto will have plenty of development. His last opponent will involve Orochimaru, someone who is a Jutsu freak. If Naruto is really Uzumaki and the inheritor of Senju Hashimara, then Naruto will master the sealing techniques of the Uzumaki, and the scroll of sealing of the Senju. That is if the two are different.

    However, there is something that you should not forget. Naruto had the Hakke seal. As soon as he took Kurama's chakra, the seal became a Rikudo seal. Can you explain what happened? Was it a mutation? Something happened that show that the seal is not just a seal. I will not go in deep specualtion, so let stop here.
    Ah, that. Actually, I can't say I will agree to that at this point, but if the elemental ninjutsu returned, it would be cool. That said, I don't believe it can be the case, since Kyuubi mode, Rinnegan, Mokuton, Perfect Susano'o and the likes casted aside the remaining jutsu, so, say, for Naruto to learn a good water element ninjutsu (providing he can do that), won't be relevant to the battle, I suppose.

    I don't know if the Rikudou seal is a unique one to Naruto's usage or a Jinchuuriki trait. Probably it could be related to his Uzumaki lineage. That's a more proper explanation.
    True that it will only be speculation anything beyond this.


    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    The why Madara used the term seal? He said he broke the seal when he unlock Rinnegan. Besides, we clearly saw that the Gedo Mazou is alive, and was only being controlled. We saw that he can cry and move. So what are you calling life force?
    It's what has been said. Rikudou Sennin separated the chakra and the body. He sealed the chakra within his body and used Chibaku Tensei on the body.
    About breaking the seal, I'm not sure. It could be some sort of protection over the Chibaku Tensei, as well. Just speculating.

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Xellos View Post
    Well, he's already molding his chakra to match that of Kyuubi and of all the ninjas' chakra patterns or whatever. Pulling various new jutsu out randomly would only surprise me because it'd be coming from Mr. I own everyone with only 3 jutsu. While Naruto being able to pull elements out of his ass is ridiculous, it's possible
    Either that is a mistranslation or he is matching their physical and spiritual energy output. That is different than creating elements.

    The unique trait thing, I believe, has to do with their balance between spiritual and physical energy. Naruto is essentially modifying his chakra to where people can handle it. The fact that it it affects people differently (such as Chouji regaining weight) is evidence of this.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Either that is a mistranslation or he is matching their physical and spiritual energy output. That is different than creating elements.

    The unique trait thing, I believe, has to do with their balance between spiritual and physical energy. Naruto is essentially modifying his chakra to where people can handle it. The fact that it it affects people differently (such as Chouji regaining weight) is evidence of this.
    Naruto is handed ready to use chakra to them, in the same way he was using ready-to use kyuubi chakra before. After giving the chakra to each shinobi, the shinobi does not mold anything. He just spam his own jutsu. This clearly implies that the chakra Naruto is given contains all the nature elements. This conclusions is the least you can draw.

    in fact, you are using argument you don't even understand. Chouji becomes fact whenever he takes more calories. In the panel involving Chouji, Chouji himself uttered "calories". This mean that the chakra Naruto gave him much exactly whatever he used to take - that is the food pills, or his own physical energy. However, you seems to forget that each person's physical energy defines his natural affinity. In the same way Chouji get some calories, the cloud ninja will have what he need to make lighning, and the rock ninja, some earth jutsu. The logic is very simple.

    Question: Would you define Balance? And would you show how it can be unique to someone?

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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closed to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Either that is a mistranslation or he is matching their physical and spiritual energy output. That is different than creating elements.

    The unique trait thing, I believe, has to do with their balance between spiritual and physical energy. Naruto is essentially modifying his chakra to where people can handle it. The fact that it it affects people differently (such as Chouji regaining weight) is evidence of this.
    But physical and spiritual energy output is a chakra right? And as you know, every chakra has its own element.

    And I think the chakra/chakra affinity included/part of individual traits. We've seen naruto change/mold kurama's chakra compatible to the ninja's traits. So it's the same as naruto mokd/change kurama's chakra compatible to ninja's chakra affinity.

    Not unless, naruto's ''conversion'' chakra is like a universal chakra. That it's suitable to any type of chakra affinity. But from what the manga has shown, that's not the case. Because naruto did really mold/change kurama's chakra specifically/compatible to a lightning/earth/water/fire/wind users/ninjas.
    When i claimed that minato knows Kage Bunshin, They said that I'm wrong.
    When i claimed that minato is a sage mode user, they said that I'm delusional.
    When i claimed that minato can extend his chakra arms and can activate BM, they said that I'm ridiculous.
    Seriously, Who's "wrong", "delusional" and "ridiculous" now?

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