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Thread: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

  1. #61
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    if i remember it correctly, then the paper reacts in different ways for each element. for example, fire will cause the paper to burn or water will cause the paper to become wet, wind cuts the paper... etc. now, if the chakra doesn't have elemental property, but only affinity, then by what logic the paper becomes wet? you are saying affinity and element itself are two different things, i can live with that. but there must be something in the chakra that defines affinity, that something must have elemental property, otherwise the paper wouldn't have been cut, or become wet.
    I don't know that much detail about it, either. It has definitely some sort of unique effect on the paper.
    It may or it may not be hidden within the chakra. We only know it's passed by genes in general. There is something said as element-natured, but it's way too vague to elaborate. So, it should be within the chakra, I suppose.

  2. #62
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    if i remember it correctly, then the paper reacts in different ways for each element. for example, fire will cause the paper to burn or water will cause the paper to become wet, wind cuts the paper... etc. now, if the chakra doesn't have elemental property, but only affinity, then by what logic the paper becomes wet? you are saying affinity and element itself are two different things, i can live with that. but there must be something in the chakra that defines affinity, that something must have elemental property, otherwise the paper wouldn't have been cut, or become wet.
    Normally, I decided not to continue the thread because there is no logic in the argument of the people who are accusing me to be stupid. And, my biggest disappointment is that they ignore completely the definition given by the manga. I have noticed that whenever a definition is used to argue about Naruto, everyone start to modify it, or to deny it. Here are paraphrases of what the manga said:

    1. "The chakra of each Shinobi lean towards a particular element (earth, fire, water, wind, or light). For example, the Uchiha have affinity to fire ...

    My understanding to this is that the affinity of a shinobi is the element towards which his chakra leans. Maybe because I am so stupid that I think it is very easy to understand it. To make it even clearer, there is the paper test for affinity. In order for a shinobi to find his affinity, he inject his chakra into a special paper. You already gave some examples.

    So after injecting the chakra (raw chakra), one can know if he has any of the element as the predominant. I use "predominant" because I understand the definition of affinity as predominant element. The chakra leaning towards that elements does not mean it does not contain other elements. Given that the paper test is based on raw chakra, you can see that the chakra of a shinobi contains all the basic element - or at least factor that define them. I also understand that if the shinobi chakra does not contain enough quantity of a given elements, that shinobi will never be able to perform a jutsu based on that elements.


    2. Performing elemental Jutsu - nature transformation/manipulation

    Kakashi and Yamato go on to explain that once a Shinobi chakra has a given nature, they can now learn how to manipulate this element to create the natural form of the element which are wind, lightning, actual water, etc, or to use them in Jutsu such as Fuiton RS. Pure water such as the one Kisame produced, or lightning such as the one Kakashi used to counter Kakuzu's are called elemental Jutsu. Kakashi said that a person cannot use these scales as Kakuzu used if it is not there affinity (we found later the explanation behind Kakuzu).

    The key here, is that before creating wind with a seal, or making fire bullet like Uchihas, these elements have to be in a certain state in their chakra. Otherwise, they cannot use them. Actually, as I said earlier, the chakra of any shinobi might contain already all five elements, but since only element X is dominant, the chakra is called X-type. Thus Naruto is wind-tyoe, Sasuke is fire-type. Another proof is that Sasuke is also light-type. Hashimara was water&earth-type.

    So clearly, Chakra nature = shinobi's affinity = the most predominant element in a chakra, and there is no work required to bring it up. The shinobi only works to manipulate it so that he can use it in a specific Jutsu.

    ------- Conclusion ----

    Naruto himself is Wind-element ninja. I believe that Kyuubi's chakra has all the elements in it. For example, the fact that Kyuubi chakra grows trees around mokuton was considered by me as proof of water and earth in it. The fact that Kyuubi chakra burns on contact in V2 cloack is proof of fire. An, I will not be surprised that there is also light. By converting this chakra and mixing with his own, I believe that Naruto can create chakra of any type of nature, or mix them to give to whoever he wants.

    @ Hakuteiken

    As I said, I decided to stop arguing, and let Kishi give the answer. However, I will use this opportunity to address you concern about Oinoki Jinton.

    Kekkei Genkai such as Mokuton or Lava, and Kekkei Tota are actually ability acquired by combining elements to create an advance element. Because it is difficult for regular shinobi to do this combination, when someone is able to do that, they are considered as advance bloodline/bloodline expansion. This was explained also by Kakashi and Yamato in the same chapter.

    Thus, here, you should not see dust element as a chakra nature. Rather, it is an advance element obtain by combination.

    Dust = wind+earth+fire (not sure for fire)
    Mokuton = earth+water

    Therefore, if Onoiki was there, Naruto would have given him the three elements he need, then since Muu gave him the secret of Jinton, he would have used the recipe to create his Jinton. We can even see throughout the manga that these are different from KKG such Sharingan, demonic Mirrors, and Kimmimaru's KKG. None of Hashimara's descendent inherited his KKG. Muu and Onoiki are master and student. Yamato is a clone of Hashimara - thus I say that they only replicated Hashimara's condition.

    PS: In this discussion, most of people have denied the content in chapter 314-316 (chakra nature and affinity ) and 525 (KK Tota secret passed down to Onoiki)
    Last edited by so6pww; January 27, 2013 at 02:55 PM.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    For example, the fact that Kyuubi chakra grows trees around mokuton was considered by me as proof of water and earth in it.
    It was immediately explained by Yamato that the Mokuton was reacting to the Life Force radiating from Naruto's chakra. This probably has something to do with the fact that Naruto possess the Yang half of the Kyuubi, or the fact that he's an Uzumaki (a clan with exceptional Life Force they inherited from their SO6P bloodline).

    Basically, it's probably not so much a result the presence of Earth or Water natured chakra. However, I believe it is definitely worth keeping in mind regarding Naruto's new power-ups.

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  5. #64
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    He give chakra to Naruto to help him fight, only, as he said, he couldn't be of much use, since he couldn't give much.
    Its also the same thing the Bijuus did when giving Naruto chakra, they allowed him to continue despite being drained. Point being, chakra sharing, expecially Bijuu-chakra sharing, isn't something otherwordly, every Bijuu and Jinchuuriki in control can do it.
    Naruto does it better, doesn't change the fact that its not that impressive as OP wants it to be.
    Imo
    I still don't remember that. I remember Bee saying he couldn't go out, and then that he had to pull out because he didn't have enough chakra to continue fighting or something.

    It's still an asspull though. I guess it was introduced earlier to make it not look like an asspull, but that failed. Only reason why people accept it is because it's Naruto - any bullshit from Naruto gets accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Normally, I decided not to continue the thread because there is no logic in the argument of the people who are accusing me to be stupid. And, my biggest disappointment is that they ignore completely the definition given by the manga. I have noticed that whenever a definition is used to argue about Naruto, everyone start to modify it, or to deny it. Here are paraphrases of what the manga said:
    I highly doubt that's the reason why you decided not to continue. But I do believe you're being quite ironic here.


    Quote Quote:
    Naruto himself is Wind-element ninja. I believe that Kyuubi's chakra has all the elements in it. For example, the fact that Kyuubi chakra grows trees around mokuton was considered by me as proof of water and earth in it. The fact that Kyuubi chakra burns on contact in V2 cloack is proof of fire. An, I will not be surprised that there is also light. By converting this chakra and mixing with his own, I believe that Naruto can create chakra of any type of nature, or mix them to give to whoever he wants.
    Good thing beliefs aren't facts, just opinions.

  6. #65
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J
    I highly doubt that's the reason why you decided not to continue.
    LOL, the last post he made was the one right before I demanded he prove that the Mini Rasenshuriken has no Fuuton in it, and for him to admit he was wrong about Naruto being incapable of using Fuuton with Naruto's chakra. He admitted he "made a mistake" with him using an FRS in Chakra Mode, but won't prove the mini rasenshuriken has no Fuuton.

    I don't know what he's afraid of. He's lost all credibility already. It's not like we're gonna lose respect for him for admitting he's wrong. Can't lose what you don't have in the first place.

    On topic though: I don't get the point of claiming Naruto is the next Sage of Six Paths because there's more to it than simply having the will of fire and being outrageously powerful. He has to be a master of all 6 Paths of Chakra aswell. Something Naruto won't be. He'll be the next Sage when it comes to personality and philosphy, but that's it.

  7. #66
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    LOL, the last post he made was the one right before I demanded he prove that the Mini Rasenshuriken has no Fuuton in it, and for him to admit he was wrong about Naruto being incapable of using Fuuton with Naruto's chakra. He admitted he "made a mistake" with him using an FRS in Chakra Mode, but won't prove the mini rasenshuriken has no Fuuton.

    I don't know what he's afraid of. He's lost all credibility already. It's not like we're gonna lose respect for him for admitting he's wrong. Can't lose what you don't have in the first place.

    On topic though: I don't get the point of claiming Naruto is the next Sage of Six Paths because there's more to it than simply having the will of fire and being outrageously powerful. He has to be a master of all 6 Paths of Chakra aswell. Something Naruto won't be. He'll be the next Sage when it comes to personality and philosphy, but that's it.
    I don't have to prove that to you. There is the Rasengan, and Rasenchuriken. These two has not fuiton in them. They are pure shape manipulation of Naruto's chakra. Fuiton Rasenchuriken is the one Naruto use in SM, and this one has wind elements in it. You should notice that Naruto couldn't use it without SM because it burns his hand. I never said that Naruto cannot create FRS with his own chakra. I said he can use it in SM, and it is limiited to 2 shots even in SM.

    My only mistake is that what he used in 617 is not FRS, but the normal RS. And if you read my answer to your post, I noticed that I am the one who induced you in error.

    Again: In KM, Naruto use to make only RS, not FRS. There is no wind element in RS. It is pure shape manipulation. This is obvious, and the names are different. Fuiton RS =/= RS. Go back and read my answer to your post, and start discussing properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlinfamous View Post
    It was immediately explained by Yamato that the Mokuton was reacting to the Life Force radiating from Naruto's chakra. This probably has something to do with the fact that Naruto possess the Yang half of the Kyuubi, or the fact that he's an Uzumaki (a clan with exceptional Life Force they inherited from their SO6P bloodline).

    Basically, it's probably not so much a result the presence of Earth or Water natured chakra. However, I believe it is definitely worth keeping in mind regarding Naruto's new power-ups.
    Yeah, I know. It was said that it was life force. My point is that this life force has the same effect has Hashimara's Jutsu - meaning growing trees. Thus, while it is not explicitly saying there is water and earth, we can see that it does what water and earth do.


    @ Ninjabolt:

    In forums, I am only interested in finding meaning and implications of actions and facts. I like speculations, theories, and predictions. Thus, I will be one of the last to have problem with making or admitting my mistakes. The good thing I have noticed is that my thread are always discussed until there is a clear status - that is me or my adversaries will know whether they make sense or not. Even if I were to make 1000 errors, who can really punish me for them given that most people keep posting their own opinion rather than facts from the manga.
    Last edited by so6pww; January 27, 2013 at 11:08 PM.

  8. #67
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Yeah, I know. It was said that it was life force. My point is that this life force has the same effect has Hashimara's Jutsu - meaning growing trees. Thus, while it is not explicitly saying there is water and earth, we can see that it does what water and earth do.
    I think that assessment is a bit of a stretch... Naruto's chakra does not produce trees, which is what Hashirama/Yamato's chakra does. It augments life force, which causes the plants to grow, but it's not as if that life force is physically creating trees. That leap in logic is like saying that sunlight clearly contains Earth/Water, because sunlight makes trees grow.

    I think Hashirama's own Senju life force is probably the more important aspect of the Mokuton (i.e, what gives it the power to control Bijuu or link to the Gedo). So without necessarily gaining access to Water/Earth, Naruto's chakra IS becoming much closer to the SO6P/Hashirama; his physical energies are powerful enough to resonate with the Mokuton.

    I wonder if Naruto could affect the environment while in Sage Mode in the same way that Kabuto/Jiraiya have done... perhaps combining that power with the Chakra Mode's ability to provide Life Force for plants will allow Naruto to spawn forests? Maybe now that Naruto knows how to transfer chakra into people, he'll be able to transfer Sage chakra into the environment as well.
    Last edited by rlinfamous; January 28, 2013 at 02:24 AM.

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  10. #68
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    I don't have to prove that to you. There is the Rasengan, and Rasenchuriken.
    Did you simply ignore the chapter i linked for you to read?

    Quote Quote:
    These two has not fuiton in them. They are pure shape manipulation of Naruto's chakra. Fuiton Rasenchuriken is the one Naruto use in SM, and this one has wind elements in it.
    Rasenshuriken does have fuuton in it. I actually doubt that we have seen Naruto use a Jutsu called Rasenshuriken on its own.

    Read that chapter and you will understand why RS is wind based.

    Quote Quote:
    You should notice that Naruto couldn't use it without SM because it burns his hand. I never said that Naruto cannot create FRS with his own chakra. I said he can use it in SM, and it is limiited to 2 shots even in SM
    .

    The reason being it was an incomplete Jutsu and SM is there to give him extra protection. From what we have seen, Naruto is hardly bound to the same rules of chakra exhaustion or capacity/limit.

    Quote Quote:
    Again: In KM, Naruto use to make only RS, not FRS. There is no wind element in RS. It is pure shape manipulation. This is obvious, and the names are different. Fuiton RS =/= RS. Go back and read my answer to your post, and start discussing properly.
    Can you please explain to me then where the Mini-RS gets its cutting power from?
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    Hound of Shadow 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member benelori's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Again: In KM, Naruto use to make only RS, not FRS. There is no wind element in RS. It is pure shape manipulation. This is obvious, and the names are different. Fuiton RS =/= RS. Go back and read my answer to your post, and start discussing properly.
    There's no such thing as normal Rasenshuriken...or Rasenshuriken not having wind chakra in it...the shuriken look is given by the wind element mixed into the technique...the shape manipulation is called Rasengan. When nature manipulation is added it's called Rasenshuriken.

    Anyways...on topic...Naruto is indeed getting closer to the Sage of the Six Paths, and that is as close as he can get on his half of the lineage...he is the personification of what the older son of the the Sage was all about...or was it the younger?...anyways, the one with the strong body
    Last edited by benelori; January 28, 2013 at 05:15 AM.

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  13. #70
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity jaymizzo's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    Anyways...on topic...Naruto is indeed getting closer to the Sage of the Six Paths, and that is as close as he can get on his half of the lineage...he is the personification of what the older son of the the Sage was all about...or was it the younger?...anyways, the one with the strong body
    Not even then would i say he is close to the Sages son. In terms of ideals, even the Bijuu confirmed that Naruto is Rikudou reincarnate yes but Naruto is not even Senju or a full blooded Uzumaki, he is like an 8th of Rikudous son (just a rough guess). So far, we have no mention of any of the sons having Bijuu in them or relying on Bijuu, Naruto or Kishi needs to up Narutos base mode a lot inorder for him to even be placed in the same room as Madara let alone Rikudous son or Rikudou himself.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by rlinfamous View Post
    It was immediately explained by Yamato that the Mokuton was reacting to the Life Force radiating from Naruto's chakra. This probably has something to do with the fact that Naruto possess the Yang half of the Kyuubi, or the fact that he's an Uzumaki (a clan with exceptional Life Force they inherited from their SO6P bloodline).

    Basically, it's probably not so much a result the presence of Earth or Water natured chakra. However, I believe it is definitely worth keeping in mind regarding Naruto's new power-ups.
    I agree - I would go a step further and say it Naruto's body / bloodline more than anything else...

    ---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by benelori View Post
    There's no such thing as normal Rasenshuriken...or Rasenshuriken not having wind chakra in it...the shuriken look is given by the wind element mixed into the technique...the shape manipulation is called Rasengan. When nature manipulation is added it's called Rasenshuriken.

    Anyways...on topic...Naruto is indeed getting closer to the Sage of the Six Paths, and that is as close as he can get on his half of the lineage...he is the personification of what the older son of the the Sage was all about...or was it the younger?...anyways, the one with the strong body
    Younger
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  15. #72
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    so6pww, that wasn't the point. The thing is, as stated before, if Oonoki is able to use three elements, that means he can use nature transformation for three different elements, plus, he can also combine them. What about affinity? The chakra paper is probably react in a way only one element can, that is, dominating the others. Then, how can Naruto know which elements to give to Oonoki? Until Oonoki decides to use a Jinton jutsu, he doesn't manipulate all three elements, so, Naruto cannot possibly know of that prior to that. It's not an element itself, it's an artificially manipulated element is the better term. However, you mold chakra at the moment you use Kekkei Genkai. Until then, there is not a mixed nature of chakra residing in your body.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Not even then would i say he is close to the Sages son. In terms of ideals, even the Bijuu confirmed that Naruto is Rikudou reincarnate yes but Naruto is not even Senju or a full blooded Uzumaki, he is like an 8th of Rikudous son (just a rough guess). So far, we have no mention of any of the sons having Bijuu in them or relying on Bijuu, Naruto or Kishi needs to up Narutos base mode a lot inorder for him to even be placed in the same room as Madara let alone Rikudous son or Rikudou himself.
    But naruto just like kushina, has an amazing life force like the younger son of the sage. And naruto already took one step for becoming the second rikudou when he learned/become a sage himself.

    I don't know if you're gonna accept obito's opinion about naruto. He said that he seen hashirama through naruto and he had the senju's will of fire.

    Ahh. Never mind. Obito at that time is madara.

  17. #74
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymizzo View Post
    Not even then would i say he is close to the Sages son. In terms of ideals, even the Bijuu confirmed that Naruto is Rikudou reincarnate yes but Naruto is not even Senju or a full blooded Uzumaki, he is like an 8th of Rikudous son (just a rough guess). So far, we have no mention of any of the sons having Bijuu in them or relying on Bijuu, Naruto or Kishi needs to up Narutos base mode a lot inorder for him to even be placed in the same room as Madara let alone Rikudous son or Rikudou himself.
    What has bijuu got to do with the qualification of being close to the RS? Having a Bijuu or not having one means nothing. Apart from the older son being predictable in terms of using "eye-based" jutsus...the younger son could use an umpteen number jutsus...I guess what I am saying is having a bijuu does not form part of the qualifcation. For me he is getting closer because of the following:
    Focus on your circle of influence and not your circle of concern
    Jiraiya: Right, I need a title for the next book..Ah...Got it....
    THE TALE OF UZIMAKI NARUTO SASUKE
    About Pain: Yahiko provides the ideals and Nagato is the means

  18. #75
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto is Getting Closer to the Sage of Six Paths!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    so6pww, that wasn't the point. The thing is, as stated before, if Oonoki is able to use three elements, that means he can use nature transformation for three different elements, plus, he can also combine them. What about affinity? The chakra paper is probably react in a way only one element can, that is, dominating the others. Then, how can Naruto know which elements to give to Oonoki? Until Oonoki decides to use a Jinton jutsu, he doesn't manipulate all three elements, so, Naruto cannot possibly know of that prior to that. It's not an element itself, it's an artificially manipulated element is the better term. However, you mold chakra at the moment you use Kekkei Genkai. Until then, there is not a mixed nature of chakra residing in your body.
    That's an assumption, I guess. The chakra paper was said to react on a chakra to know someone's element. If oonoki would use that chakra paper, then it will react to his three elements. As simple as that.

    How naruto would know which elements to give oonoki? The same way he did on how he recognized kakashi's chakra. If oonoki is a KT, then that's his unique trait as an individual. So if naruto can mold kurama's chakra to match everyone's unique trait, does it mean that naruto mold kurama's chakra to match oonoki's chakra/unique trait as a KT?

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