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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Location: where Akira fought Silcardo
Knowledge: Reputation, Akira knows Akisame uses ju jiutsu and, and Akisame knows Akira uses Karate.
At the moment I would go with akisame. Overall akira has been shown as an actual equal to sakaki however we have also seen a few very particular instances where akisame has been shown dealing fairly well with akisame. Sakaki has said that akisame is one person with whom if he fought either of them would end up dead and we have also seen a couple of flashbacks of akisame having the upperhand over sakaki. More so, akisame with his pink muscle stuff has every reason to have an advantage over sakaki. Sakaki as far as we know has normal muscles which means he is good at either strength or stamina. That means that akisame is objectively better than sakaki at at least one of those things and has every reason to be equal or perhaps greater at the other than sakaki. The pink muscle stuff is extremely relevant as his combination of strength/stamina will always be superior to sakakis. On top of him being by far smarter and the manga implying he is perfect in many regards akisame is a fearsome opponent with weird techniques. Akisame might not necessarily be stronger than junazad however him having an advantage over sakaki/akira would not be weird at all.
Well, one of those flashbacks was merely depicting Akisame demonstrating a move he'd been training late at night to master. It wasn't like they were actually sparring. Sakaki was simply interested in what Akisame was doing. I'm inclined to think Akisame just told Sakaki to defend against it that's why he ended up on the ground (probably the same way Akira was shoving his body to the ground to defend against the technique). There's really no proof that other flashback was real. For all we know Sakaki could of simply been imagining what it would be like if the both of them fought. It's a 50/50 possibility. I just don't think it was real IMO because the masters never fight or spar with each other from what we've seen. Well, there is one occasion with Apachai & the Elder, but that was more like a test for Apachai in terms of holding back his strength. Also, I don't think having pink muscles gives Akisame that much of an advantage over Sakaki. Yes, he'll have slighter longer outbursts of explosive strength or whatever, but it's not really a huge factor that would potentially decide a fight between them. All that being said I do believe Akisame would have an advantage over either fighter, but just not to the certain extent you've described in your post.
As for the thread discussion. In all likely hood I do believe Akisame would win unless Akira pulls an "unavoidable die JENEZAD thrust" against him. That would truly suck for Akisame.
Well, the flashback showed akisame standing asking sakaki how he liked the technique he thought of and sakaki on the ground with those vein things looking clearly pissed. Even if they were not battling to the death the image does greatly imply akisame got the best out of sakaki.
Anyways, why even show that if it is not real? That does not even begin to make a shred of sense. Unless the manga explicitely says so there is no reason for us to think a single flashback in the manga is not true. More so, ma did say he regularly trained with the other masters during the fight with sougetsu.
Well, the advantage of pink muscle in this context is not just a short outburst of power. As far as we know that is what regular muscle does. Pink muscle has max stamina and max strength meaning that a master with both can exert maximum strength for as long as his stamina holds. A master with regular muscles will have either a lot of stamina and less strength or a lot of strength and less stamina. I would argue that is a huge advantage for akisame and perhaps this accounts for a great deal of kenichi's endurance in battle (who has been rebuilt to have muscles with stamina and strength).
It was one small panel that merely depicted Akisame hitting Sakaki on the shoulder. It wasn't really a flashback if compared to the other lengthy ones. What? It makes perfect sense. You're not being reasonable. Sakaki just had a entire discussion with Kenichi about Akisame's weird abilities and Kenichi asked who would win in a fight or who was stronger whatever; it makes perfect sense that he would then formulate a scenario in his head about a fight between them. How is that not comprehensible? I don't know. We've seen Shigure assisting Apachai in his training to hold back his strength, so it's true they do train with each other. However, that doesn't necessarily mean they spar against with each other on a regular basis. Unless you can show me a link of the masters regularly sparring against each other during a training session then your argument is done.
Okay. Explain how it is a huge advantage if they were to fight.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; January 30, 2013 at 09:48 PM.
Whether they were sparring or not is not even important, what is important here is that akisame has been shown to factually get the best of sakaki twice (the first sakaki being in pain and the second one him being obviously pissed). And we still have no reason to think that either of those one panel flashbacks were scenarios imagined by sakaki, that makes no sense.
How is it not a huge advantage? Most masters would have to train to develop either strength or stamina. Developing strength comes at the cost of not developing stamina. Developing stamina comes at the cost of not developing strength. Sure, master classes seem to have a lot of either in general however that is not a tradeoff akisame has to bother with. Akisame's pink muscles have perfect strength and perfect stamina. In a battle that means he can exert maximum strength over a long period of time which is for obvious reasons significant. In turn his enemies have to deal with the fact that developing one aspect comes at the price of the other simply because that is how how their bodies would be built. If akisame runs into a master of his own level then there will be two scenarios: The first is that he developed stamina over strength. Even if that guy is a match for akisame in terms of stamina he will simply not have as much strength. He will be able to exert his muscles over a long period of time but his attacks won't be as strong as if he had developed more strength. Someone who develops strength instead of stamina will overall get tired more easily as in a longer battle his muscles won't have the stamina to keep up even if strength wise he was a match for akisame. The situation gets worst the longer the battle gets. In the stamina over strength situation akisame will be the one able to deal the greater amount of damage over a period of time. In an strength over stamina situation it will be akisame who can maintain his attack power the highest during a period of time. Pink muscle does not concern itself over something petty like "balancing" strength or stamina, that is what normal masters would aim for(although the tradeoff between them would perhaps imply that a balance approach would mean the user is not exceptional at either). Pink muscle effectively maxes out both, there is no tradeoff to be concerned about. Akisame is in a situation where his muscle strength or stamina is as good as it would be if he had only focused on one.
Yes it is important because if they were to actually spar against eachother, I don't believe Akisame would so easily get the best Sakaki like in that one flashback. I still maintain the other one was a figment of Sakaki's imagination. We can agree to disagree.
No, it's only a huge advantage if it's a long drawn out fight. In which case Sakaki's muscles will tire out more quickly than Akisame's muscles. However, I don't believe a fight would last long between them. If you look at MMA fights between grappling users and stand up guys, those fights usually end a lot quicker compared to a fight between two stand up guys or Jiu jitsu users. A lot of those fights IMO from what I've seen go like this: the fighter who specializes in grappling has a hard time getting his opponent to the ground (probably due to excellent take down defense), and must endure being slowly pummeled to death because he doesn't have the skills to exchange with the stand up guy on his feet. That fighter usually loses the fight by TKO. In the other scenario the stand up guy doesn't have very good take down defense and the grappling user takes the fight to the ground from the get-go where the stand up guy will eventually get submitted by arm bar, guillotine choke, or whatever if he doesn't find a way to escape to his feet. Realistically speaking a fight between Akisame and Sakaki would go one of those ways. In either case the fight would not last long enough for the pink muscle advantage to come in full effect. I believe that much is inarguable.
---------- Post added at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------
Unless it turns into a Takeda vs Lugh type of fight where Akisame cant grab Sakaki and Sakaki cant hit Akisame. Then it would be a long/drawn out fight and Sakaki would be at an disadvantage.
---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------
Also, Akisame isn't the only master out the the other four with weird techniques (obviously excluding the Elder). Why do you keep harking back to that....? I believe a case can be made all of them have weird techniques.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; February 02, 2013 at 04:15 PM.
Well, akisame is not quite the lock type. His style is not brazilian jiujitsu, it is more along the lines of a regular jiujitsu which he modified into an akisame style jiujitsu (he calls it that). Akisame's jiujitsu focuses on throws. He does have locks here and there based on what we have seen however his jiujitsu is still based on throws (hence a few of those ridiculous scenes against gaidar with the counter throw to the counter throw to the counter throw and so on...).
I don't see how the fight would not get drawn out. Even if the fight took the takeda vs lugh direction in the end akira (or sakaki for that matter) would have an overall more versatile style to go up against the enemy. Having the entirety of their bodies available to them is already an advantage to begin with. More so, they are master classes rather than disciples, even against an inconvenient style they are unlikely to be unaware of how to counter stuff. I would go as far as arguing that akira would be to begin with superior to alexander as a martial artist so I really don't see how the fight would not get drawn out. Akira was able to counter to some extent junazad's throws to boot, would he have such a hard time maintaining the fight against akisame? I do lean for akisame however there is no particular reason for the fight to not be drawn out.
As for weird techniques, my point is that akisame had more of them than the rest (except the elder) on top of having his weird body. As far as we have seen the most akira/sakaki have shown is moving their organs which has more limited applications than even akisame's weird borderline deformed pink muscled body. The pink muscle thing could have benefits is short fights too. Since he does not have a tradeoff between strenght or stamina at any point then it wouldn't be weird that his strength starts out greater than that of the enemy. Even if the enemy has a lot of strength there could still be something lost due to the need of stamina.
Pink muscle are for speed, strength and endurance that what akisame say to kenichi ....
Lugh vs Takeda that was a stupid fight. -why?! That Lugh Looser has no style for fight's simply and clear no style for attack, no style for defense, no style for Dodge.,and no style for nothing ...his just a filler ...
Akisame all the way... He's probably the strongest in Ryouzanpaku (after the Elder off course).