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Thread: Naruto 619 Discussion

  1. #856
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    And guess who uses characters to explain things?
    That's right, Kishimoto.
    If Kishimoto said, next chapter, through Hashirama that lord Madara wore pink underwear on his head during their battle that would be Kishimoto informing us, the readers, that Madara wore pink underwear on his head during their battle.

    Tobirama's explanation has even more weight since Hashirama basically confirmed it
    Problem is Tobirama is stereotyping the Uchiha clan based on one person, Madara. He knows nothing about Obito, nothing about Sasuke. Nor does he know about the good that Itachi did, or about Shusui.

    He made it a point to recgonzie that they killed their own emotions. He neglects to add that they also ousted Madara and chose Hashirama as their leader.

    He says "quite a few held Madara's sentiments". If that was the case, then all the rest of them did not. Not to mention, the few who did share those sentiments would have either been dead or wouldn't have lead the Coup that happened 60+ years later.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    And guess who uses characters to explain things?
    That's right, Kishimoto.
    If Kishimoto said, next chapter, through Hashirama that lord Madara wore pink underwear on his head during their battle that would be Kishimoto informing us, the readers, that Madara wore pink underwear on his head during their battle.

    Tobirama's explanation has even more weight since Hashirama basically confirmed it
    I'm sorry, but this is one of the dumbest thing I have ever read. Character dialogues are always written from that characters point of view. Not everything they are facts. Do you still believe that everything that came out of Obito and Itachi's mouths are true?

    Hashirama is confirming that despair awakens power in their eyes and that is absolutely true. However, nothing suggested that Uchihas lost control and just hated everything and everybody. The majority of Uchihas willing to call a truce and coexist with the Senjus however, proves otherwise. They would never have even considered this idea, if they always fell into hatred as Tobirama suggested. The only one that did was Madara at that time, and the Uchihas forsook him. How can you use the exception to represent the majority, when the majority acted exactly opposite.
    Last edited by chilibun; February 08, 2013 at 12:44 PM.

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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    after this recent chapter i cant wait untill Naruto meets Tobriama and gets to convert him to Narutoism

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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is one of the dumbest thing I have ever read. Character dialogues are always written from that characters point of view. Not everything they are facts. Do you still believe that everything that came out of Obito and Itachi's mouths are true?
    So you expect Kishi to waste other chapters to disprove what Tobirama said?
    Might I add that Kishimoto himself called the Hokages "the ones who knew everything"?
    He would be quite a moron if he makes all of them spout bullshit. So unless proven otherwise I'll believe Tobirama and Hashirama's words

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Problem is Tobirama is stereotyping the Uchiha clan based on one person, Madara. He knows nothing about Obito, nothing about Sasuke. Nor does he know about the good that Itachi did, or about Shusui.

    He made it a point to recgonzie that they killed their own emotions. He neglects to add that they also ousted Madara and chose Hashirama as their leader.

    He says "quite a few held Madara's sentiments". If that was the case, then all the rest of them did not. Not to mention, the few who did share those sentiments would have either been dead or wouldn't have lead the Coup that happened 60+ years later.
    I have seen it happen countless times, Tobirama didn't base his judgment only on Madara.

    And again, all he did was kept them watched, the political power thing was Obito's comment, and I don't think Uchihas would accept, for example, not being allowed to vote for 30+ years ( since that is basically the only political power we know in the Narutoverse, they wanted more, after the Police thing? Their fault ).
    Same thing with all other clans seeing Uchihas not being allowed their same privileges and keeping quiet about it

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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Personaly i don't agree... Sure Danzo added to it BUT the hole mess was created over years from the fondation of Konoha. It just concluded in Danzo's time...
    True, but there didn't seem to be any actual problem between the village and clan before the council did what they did, and Danzo seem to have been the mastermind behind that plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattiaildivino View Post
    taht's why I said "briefly". btw,sasuke does not know obito, but he is aware of the fact he isn't madara,and keeps calling him "tobi". yet,it's strange that he does not care about that jawdrop
    Sasuke does know Tobi is Obito, he mentions his name after escaping and genjutsu'ing the Zetsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    i never said the eyes in any form dictated any emotions. I said the eyes were an indication of the potentially uncontrollable emotions being there because the potentially uncontrollable emotions were what awoke the sharingan. At best it could be said the boost in power an uchiha gets from hatred and perhaps strong emotions encourages the strong emotions however I never said the eyes controlled anything.

    sasuke has killed kumogakure ninja
    Sasuke has killed samurai
    Sasuke attempted to capture the hachibi and give it to akatsuki
    Sasuke was all for destroying every man, woman and child in the leaf regardless of what part they had in the uchiha tragedy(mostly none except for the 4 people who actually knew about this)
    Sasuke almost killed sakura and I doubt he would have had an issue with killing kakashi

    What part of that is normal? If sasuke's revenge was limited to the 3 elders then it could be argued he is normal to some extent however sasuke so far simply does not give a damn about anyone or anything. Sasuke's revenge extending any further than the 4 people who knew about it already makes him a textbook example of what tobirama feared of the uchiha. Even now it just seems as if sasuke is simply looking for the correct person to blame and have his revenge on.
    But none of that has anything to do with Sasuke losing control. All that happen after he meets Obito ad begins to get manipulated. Before that, even after being manipulated by Itachi and spending years with Orochimaru, Sasuke was shown unwilling to kill those not involved. It's only after meeting Obito that Sasuke actually begins to go off the deep end. So it's not an example of nature, but nurture.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarkPoseidon View Post
    But Obito is one piece of evidence FOR his claims. That's what makes me think that the explanation is just a method of plugging some holes, just how conveniently this explanation just takes any blame away from Obito's horrendous decision making and puts ALL the blame on Genetics!

    And judging by what Hashirama said, Madara is another piece of evidence FOR those claims.

    Madara doesn't make much sense to me. Let's assume that Madara and Izuna were all lovey-dovey and Izuna willingly gave his eyes away so that Madara could get his eyesight back and lead the clan. If Madara loved Izuna so much, then why would he let Izuna go to battle blind and get himself killed that way?

    The flipside of the coin, of course, is Itachi and Shisui.
    Not really. Obito awoke his Sharingan and was still a good person. He didn't begin to change til after he met Madara. And Madara didn't lose Izuna til after he had already gained the Sharingan and MS. He clearly didn't need to lose his beloved to become evil. Neither of them really support the idea that an Uchiha experiences a lost and awakening their Sharingan will automatically turn evil.

  6. #861
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I have seen it happen countless times, Tobirama didn't base his judgment only on Madara.

    And again, all he did was kept them watched, the political power thing was Obito's comment, and I don't think Uchihas would accept, for example, not being allowed to vote for 30+ years ( since that is basically the only political power we know in the Narutoverse, they wanted more, after the Police thing? Their fault ).
    Same thing with all other clans seeing Uchihas not being allowed their same privileges and keeping quiet about it
    And all he saw were people, who have done nothing but fight battles and wars for years, awaken an eye power through a sense of loss. All he was talking about was the awakening of the Sharigan. He's undoubtedly also seen countless Senju experience extreme loss and go nuts as well, or are we supposed to believe them all to be emotionless?

    Madara was the only one he knew that took things to an extreme. Every last Uchiha ousted him and stayed with Konoha. Not one, aside from him, became a rebel in Tobirama's life time. And yet he feared them o so much.

    He didn't just watch them, he knowingly chased them to the outskirts of the village, thereby making it favorable for them to follow in Madara's footsteps, the thing he feared most.

    And I don't see why they wouldn't want political power, Senju or Senju trained and taught ninja aside from Minato had always been the leaders of the village. It's ironic, that the Uchiha, the other founding members, were never given a chance to lead, is it not?
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  8. #862
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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    And all he saw were people, who have done nothing but fight battles and wars for years, awaken an eye power through a sense of loss. All he was talking about was the awakening of the Sharigan. He's undoubtedly also seen countless Senju experience extreme loss and go nuts as well, or are we supposed to believe them all to be emotionless?

    Madara was the only one he knew that took things to an extreme. Every last Uchiha ousted him and stayed with Konoha. Not one, aside from him, became a rebel in Tobirama's life time. And yet he feared them o so much.

    He didn't just watch them, he knowingly chased them to the outskirts of the village, thereby making it favorable for them to follow in Madara's footsteps, the thing he feared most.
    Remember Obito?
    He had an entire chapter when all his dialogue was made of "Gwooooo" "Groooooo" "Gwaaaaaaa".
    To be emotionally broken is one thing, to become insane is another. Expecially considering what we know, Uchihas periodically killing their best friends/brothers to try to gain MS, stealing Sharingans to continually use Izanagi etc.

    Also reread the page you linked, and look at what Oro said:
    unknowingly. He unknowingly fanned those flames.
    Tobirama screwed up, but imo it never was to wipe out Uchihas or something like that, he gave them the privilege of having the Police force ( which wasn't something bad, considering the speech Itachi gave to Sasuke ) but kept watching them, expecting them to lose it.

    Quote Quote:
    And I don't see why they wouldn't want political power, Senju or Senju trained and taught ninja aside from Minato had always been the leaders of the village. It's ironic, that the Uchiha, the other founding members, were never given a chance to lead, is it not?
    Also ironic how someone taught by Senju like Hiruzen praising Itachi, saying he had a Hokage mentality at 7.
    I'm 100% sure that, with the death of Yondaime, Hiruzen would've picked Itachi for the spot. Uchihas simply chose to rebel, and we still have to know where they were during the Kyuubi attack.

    Let's wait for all the facts before jumping the gun

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  10. #863
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member StarkPoseidon's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Its an explanation by Kishimoto as to why Sharingan gets new power-ups each arc

    Joking aside, it explains why Sasuke flipped after awakening MS, and it also gives a reasonable explanation for Uchihas nihilism:
    as you said, Obito wanting to recreate a world to avenge his crush is hardly... Reasonable
    The way I see it, it's an unfair explanation because it discounts any role that the situation or circumstances have on their decision making. Instead it places 80-90% of the blame on genetics and absolves the Uchiha of any bad decisions they make.

    Of course, as SonofUchiha mentioned, this is probably more of a complete and total bias from Tobirama's part than anything else. If Uchihas really did run mental with their genetic tendencies all the time, then they would have been far far harder to handle especially in the face of the perceived persecution that Tobirama dealt to them.

    The fact that it took decades of repression for them to totally snap seems to imply that they aren't completely driven by the instinct to hate after they've lost everything.


    Quote Quote:
    And guess who uses characters to explain things?
    That's right, Kishimoto.
    If Kishimoto said, next chapter, through Hashirama that lord Madara wore pink underwear on his head during their battle that would be Kishimoto informing us, the readers, that Madara wore pink underwear on his head during their battle.

    Tobirama's explanation has even more weight since Hashirama basically confirmed it
    Cmon, every author does that. Characters speak for authors without the author having the need to put up narration boxes for exposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by SonofUchicha View Post
    No.

    Snip
    This is the first reasonable post of yours I've read since you started here a week-ish ago. Thanks for that.
    Last edited by StarkPoseidon; February 08, 2013 at 12:59 PM.

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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I have seen it happen countless times, Tobirama didn't base his judgment only on Madara.

    And again, all he did was kept them watched, the political power thing was Obito's comment, and I don't think Uchihas would accept, for example, not being allowed to vote for 30+ years ( since that is basically the only political power we know in the Narutoverse, they wanted more, after the Police thing? Their fault ).
    Same thing with all other clans seeing Uchihas not being allowed their same privileges and keeping quiet about it
    He didn't base his judgement on the Uchiha's after they joined with the Senju clan either. And actually, we saw the political power thing during Itachi's flashback. Of course, the implication is that the lost was relatively recent, so that wasn't on Tobirama.

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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    And all he saw were people, who have done nothing but fight battles and wars for years, awaken an eye power through a sense of loss. All he was talking about was the awakening of the Sharigan. He's undoubtedly also seen countless Senju experience extreme loss and go nuts as well, or are we supposed to believe them all to be emotionless?

    Madara was the only one he knew that took things to an extreme. Every last Uchiha ousted him and stayed with Konoha. Not one, aside from him, became a rebel in Tobirama's life time. And yet he feared them o so much.

    He didn't just watch them, he knowingly chased them to the outskirts of the village, thereby making it favorable for them to follow in Madara's footsteps, the thing he feared most.

    And I don't see why they wouldn't want political power, Senju or Senju trained and taught ninja aside from Minato had always been the leaders of the village. It's ironic, that the Uchiha, the other founding members, were never given a chance to lead, is it not?
    I disagree, they did have someone in politic before and that was madara. He rule along side hashirama but then he goes and make konoha hated by other village, then he decide to attack the village, it wasn't like the uchiha was never given a chance to be in the government at all or anything, they did, and they pick madara to be the one to represent them, and he screw it up for them. Also just cause they are a founder doesn't mean they have the right to monopolized over the government, the senju didn't, people of other clans have right to be in government to and it so happen that the senju does allow it, sarutobi have the teaching of senju but he himself is not a senju therefore we can see that the senju don't monopolized the government to themself, also other clan like the huuyga also have right to have some political power now don't they but they didn't start a coup over it now did they.

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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by StarkPoseidon View Post
    The way I see it, it's an unfair explanation because it discounts any role that the situation or circumstances have on their decision making. Instead it places 80-90% of the blame on genetics and absolves the Uchiha of any bad decisions they make.

    Of course, as SonofUchiha mentioned, this is probably more of a complete and total bias from Tobirama's part than anything else. If Uchihas really did run mental with their genetic tendencies all the time, then they would have been far far harder to handle especially in the face of the perceived persecution that Tobirama dealt to them.

    The fact that it took decades of repression for them to totally snap seems to imply that they aren't completely driven by the instinct to hate after they've lost everything.
    True but that's exactly why Tobirama opted only to watch them and do nothing else.
    If he hated the Uchiha so much, why then didn't he use Madara as an excuse to kill them all? Or another scapegoat like Itachi was?
    Hell why did he entrust his safety also to an Uchiha?

    Quote Quote:
    Cmon, every author does that. Characters speak for authors without the author having the need to put up narration boxes for exposition.
    Exactly.
    Its pretty difficult to find a narrator in a manga

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    He didn't base his judgement on the Uchiha's after they joined with the Senju clan either. And actually, we saw the political power thing during Itachi's flashback. Of course, the implication is that the lost was relatively recent, so that wasn't on Tobirama.
    Spot on, the lost political power was due to the Kyuubi attack that was pinned on the Uchihas ( by Danzou most likely ), considering they were missing ( according to Itachi ) and that only an Uchiha could control to such an extend the Kyuubi with a genjutsu

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Invader's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Quote:
    I leave you with this, sasuke could of ended naruto's life, without interruption once! why didn't he?
    He said why. He did it to spite his brother on a complete and total whim. He didn't do it because he loved Naruto, or cared about him, or because he was suddenly struck by some vein of compassion or clarity. Sauske merely decided he could be an extra-big prick towards his brother by ignoring Itachi's taunt that Sauske would have to kill his best friend in order to get eyes that would match his own.

    Quote Quote:
    But none of that has anything to do with Sasuke losing control. All that happen after he meets Obito ad begins to get manipulated. Before that, even after being manipulated by Itachi and spending years with Orochimaru, Sasuke was shown unwilling to kill those not involved. It's only after meeting Obito that Sasuke actually begins to go off the deep end. So it's not an example of nature, but nurture.
    Disagree. Say - for example - there is a person who is born a gifted athlete. He comes from a line of gifted athletes, and the genetic liklihood is that this kid will also end up having a propensity for strong athletic performance. With training and focus, it is virtually a guarantee that the child will become not just a 'good' athlete, but a great one.

    But tragedy strikes! There is a mixup at the hospital and the kid grows up among a bunch of non-athletes. He is never given a chance to reach his potential because the family raising him has no idea this hidden potential exists. But then he goes to school. The coach sees that this kid has the same face, nose, and features as the line of gifted athletes, and suspects that this kid would be great if he got the chance. The coach also sees the kid just naturally has ability. So he trains him and everyone is amazed at what the kid can do.

    Is nurture involved? To only a minor extent. The only reason the coach can really do anything with this hypothetical kid is because he STARTED OFF with greater gifts, abilities, and talent than other people have. The coach recognized it, and gave him the 'push' to get started - but everything else is the kid and his natural abilities that lets him excel where others would hit that plateau that makes the rest of us "normal" as opposed to "great" at something.

    Likewise, Obito may have served as the catalyst to START Sauske down his loony-toon kook path for morons. But Sauske couldn't get far down that path unless he had the genetic nature to do so.
    Last edited by Invader; February 08, 2013 at 01:38 PM.
    Hidan... Naruto's ONLY real villain!

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member StarkPoseidon's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    True but that's exactly why Tobirama opted only to watch them and do nothing else.
    If he hated the Uchiha so much, why then didn't he use Madara as an excuse to kill them all? Or another scapegoat like Itachi was?
    Hell why did he entrust his safety also to an Uchiha?
    Exactly. This is one of the primary reasons why I'm leaning against bashing Tobirama. I lean more towards:

    Quote Quote:
    Spot on, the lost political power was due to the Kyuubi attack that was pinned on the Uchihas ( by Danzou most likely ), considering they were missing ( according to Itachi ) and that only an Uchiha could control to such an extend the Kyuubi with a genjutsu
    Danzou and Hiruzen as the primary idiots along with Tobi and Madara on the other side.

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  18. #869
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Remember Obito?
    He had an entire chapter when all his dialogue was made of "Gwooooo" "Groooooo" "Gwaaaaaaa".
    To be emotionally broken is one thing, to become insane is another. Expecially considering what we know, Uchihas periodically killing their best friends/brothers to try to gain MS, stealing Sharingans to continually use Izanagi etc.

    Also reread the page you linked, and look at what Oro said:
    unknowingly. He unknowingly fanned those flames.
    Tobirama screwed up, but imo it never was to wipe out Uchihas or something like that, he gave them the privilege of having the Police force ( which wasn't something bad, considering the speech Itachi gave to Sasuke ) but kept watching them, expecting them to lose it.



    Also ironic how someone taught by Senju like Hiruzen praising Itachi, saying he had a Hokage mentality at 7.
    I'm 100% sure that, with the death of Yondaime, Hiruzen would've picked Itachi for the spot. Uchihas simply chose to rebel, and we still have to know where they were during the Kyuubi attack.

    Let's wait for all the facts before jumping the gun
    Tobirama never knew Obito though, his experiences were from Uchiha during war time, it should be expected that they acted how they did and awakened Sharigan's. Tobirama fought in the war before the villages with all those battles and then during the 1st Shinobi war in which he died. The Uchiha were fine for years after that until the attempted Coup.

    Fact is, his basis for their problems were unfounded as he only used his experience with them in battle. He ignored out they ousted Madara and swore loyalty to his brother while killing their feelings.

    He unknowingly caused a shit storm, but knowingly did everything that led to it. So I don't by his ignorance for a second.

    As for the Uchiha rebelling. If Hiruzen wanted to he could have spared Itachi, Sasuke and any other loyal Uchiha and had ANBU kill all the rest. But he didn't he had Itachi kill everyone, take the blame, and only left Sasuke.

    ---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by huynhlan View Post
    I disagree, they did have someone in politic before and that was madara. He rule along side hashirama but then he goes and make konoha hated by other village, then he decide to attack the village, it wasn't like the uchiha was never given a chance to be in the government at all or anything, they did, and they pick madara to be the one to represent them, and he screw it up for them. Also just cause they are a founder doesn't mean they have the right to monopolized over the government, the senju didn't, people of other clans have right to be in government to and it so happen that the senju does allow it, sarutobi have the teaching of senju but he himself is not a senju therefore we can see that the senju don't monopolized the government to themself, also other clan like the huuyga also have right to have some political power now don't they but they didn't start a coup over it now did they.
    Madara was never a political leader, Hashirama was the one made Hokage not him.

    And Senju didn't monopolize the government? Two Senju's were Hokage, and since neither seemed to have any kin ready for the job, they made their student the next Hokage, who in turn made his student's student Hokage. All of them have ties to the Senju clan, none aside from Minato having taught an Uchiha, have ties to the Uchiha clan.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Naruto 619 Discussion / 620 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post

    Madara was never a political leader, Hashirama was the one made Hokage not him.

    And Senju didn't monopolize the government? Two Senju's were Hokage, and since neither seemed to have any kin ready for the job, they made their student the next Hokage, who in turn made his student's student Hokage. All of them have ties to the Senju clan, none aside from Minato having taught an Uchiha, have ties to the Uchiha clan.
    You don't have to be an hokage to be an political leader, madara could have the role of an elder or one like danzou. If the senju did indeed monopolize the government then it would mean they could have just abolished the election and name themself king instead and also hashirama did have a kid so tobimaru could have just giving the job to that person instead he didn't keep it within his clan. The people he pick follow his belief but that is by no mean that the senju monopolized government, also what about other clan, sarutobi don't have tie with huuyga, etc... so should they be agry cause of it.

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