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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
But if someone very close to you, hurts or betrays you by lets say abandoning you to die to save them self. Would you easily forgive them when they see the error of their ways?
Not to mention people of Konoha would have doubts and opinions.
The most recent chapter says that Uchiha love is deeper than anyone and since love/hate is like day/night would it not be safe to say that Uchiha hate is deeper than anyone as well?
Secondly, you made some good points. I did generalize the Uchiha a bit based on a few specific individuals.
However, I do think there is evidence in the manga to support the claim that Uchiha rule would ultimately not have been great. What I'm going to argue will assume that Tobirama, for all his bias, spoke the truth in Naruto 619 and that his observations were based on research and intellect--an intellect I'd say he's demonstrated by the creation of Edo Tensei.
There's been discussion about the Uchiha love and how they would make great rulers. Yet Tobirama's wording did not seem to imply some all around everyman love but a love applied to specific relationships. Friends. Lovers. Family. As far as inter-clan relations, Tobirama was definitely biased, but the other confirmed Senju representatives were fairly judicious leaders making the most of a fractured people. Hashirama, Minato, and Hiruzen all come across as concerned caring people, but their efforts were limited by extenuating circumstances. Madara had lost his brother and perceived everything he meant to achieve (in order to honor his brother's sacrifice) being handed over to the Uchiha and became increasingly rash. Hashirama had to deal with that. Hiruzen had to deal with the fallout indirectly caused by Tobirama's well-intentioned, yet poorly thought out solution to the the Uchiha problem, while unbeknownst to both Minato and he, Madara and Tobi's hands were involved in the Kurama incident that further fanned the flames of discrimination. Naruto has Sasuke to deal with also, but remains determined to bring his friend back from a path of destruction.
Now what about the Uchiha? Who represents them? AsTobirama is the odd man out for the Senju, Itachi and Shisui were the odd men out for the Uchiha. It's important to note that they were exceptions precisely because they placed the well being of the government they were apart of over clan loyalty. Of the two, Itachi committed a terrible act, but in the knowledge that doing so was an alternative to greater horror. Without Danzo, Shisui might have been able to delay a revolution, sure. But he was unable to. You made the argument that Konoha had been destabilized before, but they were always a united village in those situations. Against Orochimaru, against Pain, they stood as one. Civil war would have been drastically different. We're talking a split village and a destabilized power structure. And if successful, no official Hokage and Danzo waiting in the wings to pounce and complicate matters. Konoha survived other incidents by a show of force or later renewed/gained allies, but at this point in history, the villages did not trust one another.
Which is all to say is that there was definite cause to worry and definite reason for a legitimate government to act on conspiracy of treason. It doesn't excuse the total murder of women and children too (assuming that only the employed shinobi were actors in the plot), but there was certainly motivation.
Nor would it be accurate to say Sasuke was the only reason for Itachi's decision. It was a big motivating factor for how he went about completing his mission, but Sasuke aside, he had long since cast aside obsessing with the clan and focused instead on the larger picture: the village and the legacy and purpose of shinobi.
In fact, I want to digress and focus on a line that holds more meaning having heard Hiruzen, Itachi, and Obito testify about that mission and Tobirama explain the functionality of the sharingan:
This line is not about ambition or power. Itachi had ability and did not need to kill his best friend Shisui to gain MS. Yet how did Itachi acquire MS. What love and loss did he know to advance those eyes? I go into much more depth on this idea in a comment in my review of Naruto 619, but consider this contradiction. Itachi loves and has pride in his clan. Yet as a double agent and wise shinobi, he knows the path they are on will lead to their destruction. If he does not intervene, ANBU inevitably will. What's more, he's disgusted by the short-sightedness. Instead of trying to improve their reputation through activism and fight the discrimination by proving themselves worthy shinobi, they've run out of rope and decided on violence. I think the stress and pain of their foolishness soured Itachi' affection for his clan, and it was his shame/disgust/whatever for their plotted coup that advanced his MS seal.Quote:
That's why he throws a kunai in the family crest. It's a show for Sasuke, but it's also a warning that they should look beyond the clan. Ultimately though, the words don't reach his father.
Alright, so digression ended. Back to examining the Uchiha as compared to the Senju. So far we've got Shisui who is nominally good and Itachi who is morally gray. What of the other Uchiha? Their most famous leader Madara is mad, arrogant, and hostile to others. Obito similarly bought into the idea that the Uchiha were a cursed and wronged people and played with the other nations with Akatsuki and from behind the scenes as though they were toys. The leadership under the coup was considering a fairly heinous act. Just as Itachi's massacre was unspeakably bad, so too would a coup be. This was a grudge against Senju leadership, which means genocide again, but with a different target and drawing in all those other Konoha shinobi who would feel a thread of loyalty towards its dead but officially elected leaders.
Regardless of how pivotal Danzo was in closing a peaceful out, the fact remains that the Uchiha under Itachi's father were holding meetings, planning this out, and accounting for clan attendance and participation. It was indeed also a wrong choice. Their discrimination both legitimate and perceived does not excuse their course of action. They weren't deposing a despot. They were deposing leaders elected by their version of a shinobi senate (that jonin council) and approved by a national figurehead.
Alright, so we've got a couple of bad apples and some revolutionaries. Is there anything else in their history that would be troublesome? Well, the Uchiha ancestors warred with the Senju out of a sense of entitlement. We can't say much about the fault on either side of middle generations, but the first (sage's son) and last iteration of Senju (Hashirama, Naruto) were compassionate or dutiful and the Uchiha were the aggressors. We also know that somewhere along the way, abuse of the dojutsu Izanami was widespread enough to necessitate a counter.
I'm sorry for the rambling post, but the point I'm trying to make is that while neither side is perfect, the Uchiha and Senju are far from morally equivalent. On the Senju side you have Tobirama who is borderline biased against the Uchiha though he intended to put them in a position to help themselves. And you maybe have Hiruzen who was unable to resolve the coup peacefully. But the Uchiha side is littered with a repeating pattern of arrogance, entitlement, and abuse of power. There's definitely a pattern there and more evidence in the manga that on the whole, the Uchiha have a hard time remaining balanced when they reach the peak of their abilities. And more often than not, they have been the aggressors in their decades long grudge against the Senju.
Again, I'm not calling you out specifically. But I wanted add links to support my claims and articulate a counter viewpoint to your own, though I know this thread is fairly old now.
While Itachi was said to be an exception to the regular Uchiha ideals, nothing of the sort was implied about Shisui. Regardless, as far as we've seen of the inter-clan relationship, there's nothing from the Uchiha side til the coup. Hashirama did have to deal with Madara, but the clan had already ousted him and sided with Hashirama. After that, we hear of no other conflicts til the Kyuubi Attack, which we know wasn't their doing, and then the coup which was formed in result of Konoha's treatment of them. As far as we've been shown, the Uchiha clan was attempting to play along as best they could. Even Tobirama said that they had been pushing down their emotions, implying they were attempting to make it so Konoha had no reason to mistrust them. Considering how revered they were and the belief that their coup could have lead to a civil war (implying they wouldn't have been alone), they weren't that isolated from the village.
A civil war wasn't a sure thing though. It was only a possibility of what could come from the coup. And between the lost of their leadership and many lost of lives, those previous examples still fit. If anything, if the Uchiha clan was as power hungry as people believed, then they would have taken the reigns quite quickly using their superior strength. Them being the police force and as far as we know organization of the highest command right after the Hokage and Anbu, grabbing command shouldn't have been that complicated. It's accurate to say that Sasuke was Itachi's sole reason for "massacring the clan". He may not have agreed with them, but until Danzo threaten to kill Sasuke with the others, Itachi didn't appear as if he would have actually killed his clansmen. Even he parents understood that the action Itachi was taking was in order to protect Sasuke.
The Uchiha clan wasn't shortsighted, at least in that regard. They obviously wouldn't have plotted a coup unless they believed they could take on the Anbu, and from Danzo's comment about ambushing them, itn seem like a direct confrontation would have ended in the clan's favor. They had run out of rope because there was nothing more they could do. They had spent fifty years proving themselves good Konoha ninjas, to the point where they were revered and beloved by everyone else in the village. What more could they have possibly done to counter the council's discrimination, especially since it wasn't in regards to anything they had actually done. The entire situation was pretty much engineer by Danzo to claim their Sharingans.
Madara and Obito aren't any sort of standards, but exceptions. The clan openly displayed their want of having nothing to do with Madara, and Obito became evil due to Madara's manipulation. And plotting a coup is hardly a heinous act, especially when legitimately being discriminated against. As far as they were concern, they were deposing of a despot government that was doing nothing to stop the discrimination they were being dealt. Someone being voted in doesn't mean their rule can't be challenged, especially if it's not helping the citizens. And it wasn't from a sense of entitlement, but from believing his way of achieving peace was right that the original conflict began. The abuse of Izanagi, which wasn't said to be that widespread, was dealt with by the Uchiha's themselves and made forbidden as a whole. As with Madara's actions, judging the clan as a whole by the actions of a few is wrong. Clearly the majority was against the abuse of Izanagi. A handful of members being arrogant and abusing their power means little when the majority of the clan was shown believing things differently. Heck, the whole creation of Izanami was to prevent members from becoming arrogant. Fact is, that the few examples of "bad" Uchiha's were separate from the clan as a whole, and the only act of aggression they were shown conducting after fifty years of peace was directly in response to being discriminated and segregated. They can't possibly be blamed for wanting to make conditions better for themselves.