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Thread: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

  1. #61
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    If you can think of a way to justify not giving him the ability to make wings (just like Sasuke's) with his mutation then sure. We already know he can alter his body to extreme levels (stretching Luffy style requires expandable bone segments aswell as the ability to create extra cells). Making wings isn't all that far-fetched.
    Fair enough

    Quote Quote:
    Why are we so sure it's gonna start Juugo vs. Sarutobi? Even if it did, Sasuke can do the same thing that happened while Raikage was fighting Juugo: sneak a Genjutsu in when his opponent isn't paying attention. It didn't work on Raikage, but that doesn't mean it won't on Sarutobi. Gets even easier if Kimmimaro is trying to keep his distance from Sasuke. Nothing would stop him from glancing right into Sarutobi's eyes, paralyzing him, allowing Juugo to punch his head off. Can Kimimaro rush in and protect Sarutobi before this happens? Maybe. And if he does, then he's just placed them both in line of site for a Chakra Cannon.
    As you said its a fantasy battle, in my scenario the fighters split in 1 on 1 fights, its easier to debate that way.
    Obviously Hiruzen can last what, 1 minute against Sasuke, not gonna deny that. Simply put I'm pairing the ones closest in strenght, mind you I think Juugo is miles beyond the other three, since ultimately he was all hype and nothing else

    Quote Quote:
    He didn't get untouched... lol. He got touched a LOT. It just so happened he could tank the blows because they were trying to crush him. They weren't burning or piercing attacks. Sasuke has attacks that can hurt Kimimaro without needing to overcome his bones in Genjutsu and raiton. Even a Gouryuuka would superheat his bones most likely, burning him. Well, they should if they can alter the entire climate, lol.
    Tanking a sea of sand and 200m underground of sand crushing you >>>>> Goryuuka, imo.
    There is a reason why Orochimaru wanted Kimimaro's body the most, and why he said its defence was outstanding. Imo nothing short of a Chidori can hurt Kimi, and even then it isn't an instant cut, giving Kimimaro all the time to react.
    Sasuke would then forced to let go, and his best result would be a non-completely cut bone. Mind you, if he goes bone forest from the start Sasuke can't hurt him imo, since Kimi can travel between the bones, can reform them and are gigantic, so it would require a good bit of effort. All the while Hiruzen would beat Juugo, and then its a 2 on 1.

    Quote Quote:
    Right. Each squad HAD a sealing expert. They were at war. Is it that hard to believe their sealer(s) were murdered in the line of duty? Or relocated to seal an opponent that's more important?
    If they didn't have one, they would require one, considering they could comunicate thanks to the sensor squad.
    I don't think Mifune would be such an imbecile not to call a sealing expert to fight 2 Edo bodies

    Quote Quote:
    The Nyoi Bo is unbreakable, but it's not like it's shown destructive force capable of the type we've seen from Raikage's attacks, let alone their speed. But whatever. Juugo can be hurt by the bo, sure. But I don't think it's the clencher. Not with Juugo's flight and ranged options.
    Juugo's flight and ranged options would just deplete him of chakra, since his attacks are hardly undodgeable.
    If he flies around shooting cannons fine, he would drop to the ground exhausted before long with Hiruzen still relatively fresh

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Uchiha_Blood
    Right the people there where going Oo because it was a stupid attack.
    They were concerned because it was a point blank attack, as in an attack made from 0 distance.
    They didn't comment on the strenght

    Quote Quote:
    Diferent speet man... 1 is a projectile and the other is a beam attack. If i trow a rock at you you could dodge it... Then try dodging a laster. Of course not the same speed diference between the attacks but i was just trying to make a point. Just because they have close the same AOE it does not man the force propagates at the same speed. Also the distance is also to be noted. Sakura had enough distance.
    So you are saying Juugo's attack is faster than Itachi's, is that correct.
    Because if so, I can't take you seriously

    Quote Quote:
    It means he had an army there and even Kages helping him...
    Did the Kages helped him when he was 1 on 1 against Raikage, with the latter ready to pierce him at full speed?

    Quote Quote:
    Yes he 1 shooted Raikage after he was saved by the alliance...
    He was "saved" ( pretty strong word, dodging one non-lethal attack ) by one member, and it was a one-time thing.
    So I can say Sasuke didn't legitly dodge Raikage because Juugo and Suigetsu "saved" him? Or Raikage's speed against Yondaime wasn't legit because Bee "saved" him?

    Quote Quote:
    I love how you ignore the events... How did Naruto fail to kill Kimi? Provide the panels...

    Also he killed a Hanzou that was a "dull blade" the living and 100% will powered Handzou (before losing himself) he would have cut right trough Mifune's blade... Why do you keep ignoring events and only focus on what you like? Mifune only won because the Hanzou that had to fight the sannin was "dead".... The real one already owned Mifune when he was alive.
    By the fact that, when Itachi released Edo Tensei, Kimimaro was still alive and not sealed, maybe?

    Dull blade ?
    Mifune's cut was so fast it didn't stain his blade, meaning his blade cut so fast that the two blades didn't even met. Mifune clearly improved, Hanzou did not.

    Quote Quote:
    No it means you have no bloody clue what happened there. Just because he did not get sealed it does not mean he was able to stay alive vs Naruto... Well he would as Naruto can't seal shit. We don't know what happened there. Perhaps Naruto owned him like a bug but then Kimi played dead or something and got away... I don't know.
    He played dead?
    He was actively fighting, as you can see here as well.

    Quote Quote:
    Its IRRELEVANT this way... You have NO idea what happened...
    to YOU, for the sake of my argument its pretty relevant the fact that he survived 2 Kage-level ninjas and an army on his own

    Quote Quote:
    Sound 4 abilities did crep nothing.
    That fight was so hard for the 2 of them because they had to trap a man who does not have eyes and has insane regen/durability in a visual genjutsu...

    Oh end Kabuto in a 1 vs 1 with any of them asuming they go for the kill he would die in Amaterasu. His water mode would boil away...

    Sound 4 (not Kabuto with his insane other powers) vs any of the Uchiha would get completly anihilated... Those people where taken down by GENIN ffs...

    Oh and i love how you ignore the fact that the curent sound 4 abilities where powered by SM... Yeah i gues its irrelevant that senjutsu chakra increases the power of jutsus by a huge degree...
    Considering they needed Amaterasu to cut/burn Kidomaru's web, and were trapped by Tayuya's genjutsu I don't think they were useless.

    The boost Senjutsu give is not nearly as much as the boost the Mangekyo gaves Sasuke and Itachi compared to their base power.
    As for "Sound 4 got dealt with by genins lolz" it wasn't all four of them at once, and in Tayuya and Sakon's case they required 2 additional genins that were easily chunin-level, with tailor-made abilities to counter them.

    Not gonna argue anymore on the "Amaterasu" argument or the Kabuto argument, believe what you want to believe

    Quote Quote:
    No it was a HOLE in his raiton shield and barely pierced his body...
    So a jutsu made for piercing could pierce an armour used to increase speed, and it couldn't pierce deep enough to seriously wound the opponent.
    An attack jutsu putting a HOLE in a support jutsu isn't THAT impressive IMO

    Quote Quote:
    His strongest bone get's cracked under his own force, pushing with 1 hand... Also that sand pressure is distribuited around his entire body and NOT focused at 1 point...
    His strongest bone got crushed by continuosly grinding against an incredibly tough defence empowered by a Bijuu's chakra pretty different

    Quote Quote:
    lol... Seriously? The fact that he has a "sea of sand" just allows him to cover a bigger area but NOT provide more force in a given area.... The only sand that applies presure is the one right above Kimimaro.
    This page disagrees with you

    Quote Quote:
    He noticed the clowd coming his way... He just could not dodge something that huge... Also its not luck... Its how afinities work...

    Point is he found a way around said event. He even had time to genjutsu that guy and formed a plan...
    Its luck and nothing else the fact that his affinity was Thunder and Deidara's was Earth, and I did say Sasuke's reasoning was impressive, not gonna deny that.
    It doesn't mean he effortlessy dealt with the attack by dodging it or whatever you said ( can't find the post, strangely )

    Quote Quote:
    No he did not. Sasuke claimed after the charge he wanted him alive... Second swing and stands to reason it was not meant to mortaly wound him.. He just said he needs him alive... Anyway its irrelevant as Deidara stated himself Sasuke is to fast for him and then whent for the sky...
    He still couldn't hit him, a feat Sai accomplished without too much problem.
    That's not to say Sai > Hebi Sasuke, is to say Hebi Sasuke isn't nearly as impressive as you want to believe

    Quote Quote:
    So? Bee's fastest attack could not his Sasuke? Sasuke dodge Raikage himself... Yes Sasuke did not whant him dead... He did not give his all... Point is its manga fact that Deidara himself stated Sasuke was just to fast... You also IGNORE how Deidara escaped for instance the second time... By using a bomb in Sasuke's face or he was in deep shit. He did not just dodge...
    Because he was distracted he needed that bomb, or did you miss Deidara getting distracted by Obito?
    And even then he was fast enough to react.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh really?
    Really


    Quote Quote:
    What top tier would Kimimaro take down? How about you don't just quote you also address it?



    Going by feats sure it does... Strongest bone braking under the presure of 1 arm... Sasuke with no CS on cutting trough Raikage's shield...



    Same as above... Also and again i love how you don't bother to provide counter arguments...



    Again same as above.
    ^ From this point forward you autoquoted yourself, so I don't really know how to respond

  2. #62
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    Can't respond as much as I would like to, since currently my internet conection sucks and I can barely manage to open the site... but I just want to say this:

    Some pages ago it was argued that Sasuke wouldn't have trouble with Kimimaro in close combat because he already fought Bee and his Eight Swords Style.

    There is a flaw in this though: Bee is still bound to muscle movements and motions which are physically possible. Kimimaro on the other hand can grow bones from any point of his body without the slightest hint or warning. Those fighting styles are not compareable.

    Kimi's Keke is completely unpredictable and even Sharingan shouldn't play much of a role, since these growths spurts of bones don't rely on body and muscle movement. All Sasuke can use are his plain old reflexes.

    Anyway, I wouldn't even put Kimimaro against Sasuke... even without direct feats its canonically established fact that Kimimaro can pretty much subdue Juugo without much effort, so just let Sarutobi stall Sasuke a bit with his Adamantium Bo, Cage, Mud-Wall and what not until this turns into 2vs1.

    Genjutsu? I don't know, but since when was pre MS Sasuke a heavy Genjutsu user? All I can remember right now is the Deidara fight, and its not like Sasuke was spamming genjutsu right off the bat and neither was it paralyzing or anything... he used it more like a illusionary bunshin. I don't really see this as a game-ender.
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  4. #63
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash
    There is a flaw in this though: Bee is still bound to muscle movements and motions which are physically possible. Kimimaro on the other hand can grow bones from any point of his body without the slightest hint or warning. Those fighting styles are not compareable.
    The point is that Bee's 7 sword style hits faster than Kimimaro's bones can spew from his flesh, and in less predictable ways. Sasuke managed to (remember: without Sharingan) deflect, parry, and back away from a rapidfire of dozens of slashes. Kimimaro can't exactly swing his chest like an arm, nor control the direction that his bones are piercing. They stab in the direction they erupt from... they don't slash.

    Then there's the fact that Kimi's speed is supposed to be considered impressive, though it was only shown to be impressive when used against people far beneath his level (Naruto, Lee). Bee however, beat Sasuke in a speed-clash when he had his Sharingan active (for that one stab at that one particular moment). For every point that makes Kimimaro impressive, Killerbee outshines him in it. Speed? Check. Unorthodox fighting style based on swordplay? Check. Durability? Check.

    And all of this Bee used against a Sasuke that COULD'NT enhance his body/attacks with Curse Seal power. Kimimaro is essentially fighting a stronger version of the Sasuke that fought Bee.

    Quote Quote:
    Genjutsu? I don't know, but since when was pre MS Sasuke a heavy Genjutsu user? All I can remember right now is the Deidara fight, and its not like Sasuke was spamming genjutsu right off the bat and neither was it paralyzing or anything... he used it more like a illusionary bunshin. I don't really see this as a game-ender.
    Since he's used Genjutsu in every single fight up to getting MS, that's when, lol. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Demonic...akes_Technique

    There's your paralysis Genjutsu. The one that Sasuke used to one-shot Shi was also a basic Sharingan Genjutsu. It may not have been used until after gaining MS, but it's not an MS Genjutsu. Still, he wasn't Hebi Sasuke when he used it, so bar it from the fight or not, he still has Genjutsu powerful enough to subdue a Sannin. A Sannin who's skilled in Genjutsu mind you.

  5. #64
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    Wait... when did he use that Shackling Stakes Technique? I really can't remember that. Always thought thats Itachi's jutsu. Although the wiki lists Sasuke as well, so I'm not doubting it.

    However, that begs another question: If he's able to place someone into that genjutsu so easily, then why didn't he use it against Deidara right from the start? He didn't show any aversion towards Speed Blitz Shunshin-Dissection as evident by the attack on Tobi... so the fight really could have been over in an instant. I always thought of Sasuke as someone who uses genjutsu as feints to create openings, not someone like the Martian Manhunter or Itachi who use it to mindrape people

    But even with that paralysation technique, there's the factor of the fighters here aren't being alone. Hiruzen could just throw a mud-wall and use the few seconds he gets to snap Kimimaro out of it. Still not a game-ender imho.

    I'll probably wait for the chance of "God Of All Shinobi" actually showing us something before I make up my mind on this thread.
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

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  6. #65
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    Sasuke use that Genjutsu on Orochimaru in the realm when Orochimaru try to take over Sasuke's body.

  7. #66
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    Inside his head. When Orochimaru was trying to steal his body?

    Remember, Oro says "Kukuku, just like last time..." He pulls free after a moment and begins trying to take control of Sasuke again right after, but the fact that Sasuke stauled a Sannin with his basic Sharingan is impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash
    However, that begs another question: If he's able to place someone into that genjutsu so easily, then why didn't he use it against Deidara right from the start? He didn't show any aversion towards Speed Blitz Shunshin-Dissection as evident by the attack on Tobi... so the fight really could have been over in an instant. I always thought of Sasuke as someone who uses genjutsu as feints to create openings, not someone like the Martian Manhunter or Itachi who use it to mindrape people
    Come on. You know the answer to that, lol. Same reason he doesn't copy every jutsu his opponents use, or prep a Kirin at the beginning of every fight.

  8. #67
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    Oh yeah... right... now I remember that. Must have been the mental barrier I've created to surpress and seal those events deep down into the deepest depths of my subconsciousness.
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

  9. #68
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    @Uchiha_Blood

    They were concerned because it was a point blank attack, as in an attack made from 0 distance.
    They didn't comment on the strenght

    If it was not a strong attack nobody would be stating anything... I am sure if Juugo trew a rock at Raikage nobody would be giving a damn even its 2cm's from his face... Also look at the area it blew up:

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/462/5
    I mean seriously look what he did to the area:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/463/2

    Quote Quote:
    So you are saying Juugo's attack is faster than Itachi's, is that correct.
    Because if so, I can't take you seriously
    Then a fireball? Sure is... One is a projectile that you spit out and the other is a beam attack.

    Quote Quote:
    Did the Kages helped him when he was 1 on 1 against Raikage, with the latter ready to pierce him at full speed?
    At that point no but you see why are you looking at that 1 and only 1 moment and ignore the REST of it... He got saved a bunch of times man... Its like having Naruto beat up Raikage to a pul and then Konohamaru coming in and killing him with a kunai and claiming "see, he got him"...

    Did that fight start there? I don't think so...

    Quote Quote:
    He was "saved" ( pretty strong word, dodging one non-lethal attack ) by one member, and it was a one-time thing.
    So I can say Sasuke didn't legitly dodge Raikage because Juugo and Suigetsu "saved" him? Or Raikage's speed against Yondaime wasn't legit because Bee "saved" him?
    Naruto himself stated he was saved... That Chidori type attack would have left him completly out of it even if he would not die.

    Sasuke did legitly dodge Raikage just as Naruto legitly dodged Raikage... Thing is Sasuke just like Naruto did not exacly win that by himself... Well won is a strong word as it was more of a draw (even if i belive Raikage would die and Sasuke not from that drop). Thing is Sasuke had a team and so did Raikage so it things are diferent... Naruto had a team and Raikage did not. It was 1 vs many.
    Same for Raikage and Minato example... The speed is legit BUT you can't ignore the help he got... Abilities that are showed in no shape or fashion have a connection with how fair a fight was...

    Quote Quote:
    By the fact that, when Itachi released Edo Tensei, Kimimaro was still alive and not sealed, maybe?
    How is this relevant in any way to the fact that we have no bloody clue what happened there?


    Quote Quote:
    Dull blade ?
    Mifune's cut was so fast it didn't stain his blade, meaning his blade cut so fast that the two blades didn't even met. Mifune clearly improved, Hanzou did not.
    No, Hanzou lost because Mifune was able to cut trough his blade. Mifune himself stated why Hanzou lost. You can try to argue around it all day but i do belive Mifune knows better.


    Quote Quote:
    He played dead?
    He was actively fighting, as you can see here as well.
    As i said i don't know what happened and you don't know it to. Now if you whant to imprese me with scans of Kimi + that women fighting fodder samurai you should know its not working...

    Quote Quote:
    to YOU, for the sake of my argument its pretty relevant the fact that he survived 2 Kage-level ninjas and an army on his own
    Really? where and how? Please show me where he is fighting what you claim as showing me some fodder nobs its not impresive...

    Quote Quote:
    Considering they needed Amaterasu to cut/burn Kidomaru's web, and were trapped by Tayuya's genjutsu I don't think they were useless.
    Powered by senjutsu chakra... Also what was needed to cut trough that web its irrelevant... Kidomaru would stand 0 chanse vs any of the Uchiha and same for that genjutsu... Anybody can be hit by genjutsu even Uchiha... That does not mean that Tayuga babe would stand a chanse in hell to win vs Itachi or Sasuke.

    Quote Quote:
    The boost Senjutsu give is not nearly as much as the boost the Mangekyo gaves Sasuke and Itachi compared to their base power.
    So? Those 4 nobs don't have senjutsu chakra BUT Sasuke does have his EMS... Itachi with his MS or Sasuke with his EMS would stomp all over them... They can't stomp all over Kabuto but that is another story...

    PS. Those 4 nobs do have some nature energy because of the seal but its not the same thing.

    Quote Quote:
    As for "Sound 4 got dealt with by genins lolz" it wasn't all four of them at once, and in Tayuya and Sakon's case they required 2 additional genins that were easily chunin-level, with tailor-made abilities to counter them.
    So? Those genin can't posibly compare to Sasuke or Itachi's curent power levels... Those where nothing to them... Also yes those needed help big woup...

    Not gonna argue anymore on the "Amaterasu" argument or the Kabuto argument, believe what you want to believe

    Of course you are free to provide counters to having himself getting boiled away. Of course in a 1vs1 fight where Kabuto has time to split himself up its a diferent story... Thing is in that fight those 2 bros had the moment Kabuto was in 1 place he would be boiling away.

    Quote Quote:
    So a jutsu made for piercing could pierce an armour used to increase speed, and it couldn't pierce deep enough to seriously wound the opponent.
    An attack jutsu putting a HOLE in a support jutsu isn't THAT impressive IMO
    That shield provide INSANE protection. The shield provides protection and speed... Got bored at trowing feats from that shield at you only to completly ignore them and go on and on on speed part...

    I can't even belive how you can claim that is a support jutsu...

    Quote Quote:
    His strongest bone got crushed by continuosly grinding against an incredibly tough defence empowered by a Bijuu's chakra pretty different
    Why the hell cares what it was grinding against. It could be an adamantine wall for all i care... Point is the force provided by a single arm could crumble his strongest and most dense bone... a arm in CS lvl 2 mode with Chidori would go trough it like nothing.

    Quote Quote:
    This page disagrees with you
    LOL how so? He coused the entire area to use that crush jutsu (whatever the name is) but the sand does not provide presure only on Kimimaro but the entire area.

    Quote Quote:
    Its luck and nothing else the fact that his affinity was Thunder and Deidara's was Earth, and I did say Sasuke's reasoning was impressive, not gonna deny that.
    It doesn't mean he effortlessy dealt with the attack by dodging it or whatever you said ( can't find the post, strangely )
    I did not say he dodged it. I said he could fight stuff like that. Obviously you can't dodge that.

    He still couldn't hit him, a feat Sai accomplished without too much problem.
    That's not to say Sai > Hebi Sasuke, is to say Hebi Sasuke isn't nearly as impressive as you want to believe

    He could not hit him because of some reasons, like going for Tobi at first and needing this guy alive. Tobi AND Deidara addresed the speed issue. Deidara direcly claimed he can't take that.

    Because he was distracted he needed that bomb, or did you miss Deidara getting distracted by Obito?
    And even then he was fast enough to react.

    Distracted? Sasuke was on the ground and poped instantly behind his back. He moved THAT fast. Sasuke could pop that fast with his shunshin behind him.

    Look what he is stating here and how he got away:
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v39/c357/15.html

    Here claiming its to fast:
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v39/c357/16.html

    Quote Quote:
    ^ From this point forward you autoquoted yourself, so I don't really know how to respond
    Well i have to when you just qute and you don't addresed anything. I quted each of my sentence YOU provided as somehow i claim something and then enforced what i said there...
    You can respond by showing me how did i stated what you claimed in those quotes.

  10. #69
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    @xXan

    Being true to my words, I will not take you seriously since you implied Juugo's attack being faster than Itachi's.
    Let's agree to disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    Oh yeah... right... now I remember that. Must have been the mental barrier I've created to surpress and seal those events deep down into the deepest depths of my subconsciousness.
    Together with Izanami I bet

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Sarutobi/Kimimaro vs HEBI Sasuke/Juugo

    @Uchiha_Blood

    It does not matter its Itachi... I fail to understand why Juugo can't have an attack type that is faster then Itachi's fireball? Can you give me a reason? Even the fact that Sakura and that elder bat could dodge said attack and it should tell you something... Heh Bee could pull Samehada out and cut it in half. Itachi's fireball is NOT Amaterasu... Juugo's beam attack is diferent.

    So that fireball was dodged easy by Naruto, that old women and Sakura... Then Kakashi had time to DIG his way out of the way... The attack was at no point showed as somethign really hard to dodge... Hell not even that fast... You have feats for this fireball that would make it look insane fast? Show me please.

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