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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
I understand your point about Ki release and the power and superiority it gives to the one who achieves it. You might not understand what I ment by my previous post. The thing is that Takeda got a power-up, a tremendous power-up. The thing is that if he gained it a bit earlier I wouldn't have thought even a second and vote for him to win this fight. Still, now he suffered a serious injury. He broke his left arm and that's quite a disadvantage on his part, since it's his strongest weapon and he also can't protect himself from Lugh's moves as well as he could before this happened. Also he himself admitted even before breaking his arm that if he doesn't do something as quick as possible, then he would loose due to fatigue and looth of blood.
Still after he released his Ki he still has some edge and he might win or at least make this fight a draw by trying to make one-shot attack on Lugh with his right hand, while getting one-shot move from Lugh.
Well, I agree that Kenichi didn't start to actually fight against Berserker wityh his full power and didn't use most of his strongest moves. Still, the same applies to Berserker.
Anyways I agree that Berserker might activate his Berserk Mode (that actually looks like something close to Miu's Dou Ki release) earlier and finally release his Ki, but still for now he also doesn't need anything serious, since he seems quite good in terms of countering Kenichi's moves and also has quite a speed.
Still, I hope that Kenichi will release his Ki as soon as possible. If not in this fight, then during some training session after this fight, because it really seem awkward that currently Takeda might be too close to Kenichi due to just two asspull power-ups that he got in two last chapters, while only several arcs ago Kenichi while not fighting seriously managed to beat Takeda quite easily.
P.S. The thing that would be actually funny, if Ukita manages to find a Master and then achieves to release his Ki and then becomes powerful enough to not loose aqgainst the likes of bottom Yomi members.
I like Takeda but also think it's a bit strange he released his ki like that. As I understand, it is all his training that allowed him to reach that point where he figured out the ki technique and get hold of his ki like that so he just needed a trigger of sort to release it. If that's the case then it's safe to assume Kenichi will release his ki soon with the right trigger. Lugh goes for the kill or be killed and Takeda needs to stop him without killing him - eager to see the conclusion.
I wonder if there is a time limit on the Dou Ki or Sei Ki release? Does it work similar to the Roar as One technique? Negative side effects?........
Perhaps there is no time limit for each respective release, maybe it's a one time deal. Once you activate the release your powers/abilites will be forever enhanced taken to a new level. However, if thats the case Miu may stay in Bulu berserk mode for a long time as she obviously doesn't fully know how to control her Dou ki yet. I don't know what do you guys think?
Um...guys have y'all forgotten that kenichi already released his sei ki, like 200-300 chapters ago? Possibly during his match against Odin in the first arc. Very likely against during the first dual vs. Boris (when Boris injured Miu), and most definitely against Kano Sho when finally managed Ryuusei Seikuken. Kenichi has actually shown a control of his ki that outstrips almost every disciple in the manga even Miu . His only hang up arises in that he can't get serious without someone's life at stake.
The fact that its taken this long for Takeda to release his sei ki actually means he sorta sucks at ki manipulation. Shiba did say that ki manipulation isn't what Takeda is good at. And he's been a student of Shiba's for like a year now, remember?
Well, looking on how Ki release worked with Rimi, it doesn't look like Ki release is always on. It seems you can turn it on or of, but I might be wrong. We'll see how it works in this Arc and it will be explained more thoroughly.
Still, it's interesting to see an explanation on the difference between Sei and Dou releases and what are actual benefits from them.
I actually don't find it weird how takeda gets to release his ki before kenishi. It's not a race and kenishi is mostly portrayed as the underdog who overcomes.
Now sure kenishi was ahead of takeda but only in fighting techniques, not necessarily potential and ki mastery. Also if you look at takeda's progress since he started fighting lugh this shouldnt be surprising at this point.
Just because takeda got a huge lead compared to kenishi the main character doesn't really mean much. Looking at the fights, if the situations were reversed with takeda in kenishi's place right now fighting beserker with the same level of difficulty kenishi is having right now(which is not much difficulty) and STILL released his ki, then THAT would be an ass-pull to me, as in forced.
if kenishi was right now in that kind of situation takeda's in, im sure him releasing his ki would have been appropriate. Also about kenishi having being in many other tougher situations and not releasing it could be because NOW they have reached the stage were it's possible for them to release it and takeda just happens to be in the right situation compared to kenishi.
PS: takeda might not have as much experience as kenishi but in terms of training im sure his can almost hold a candle to kenishi's and he does it everyday even when kenishi's off somewhere to fight baddies or save miu or watever (times where kenishi is not doing hellish training but actually getting fighting experience)
Last edited by bighawke5; February 03, 2013 at 07:04 PM.
Takeda started his extraordinary training by the time kenichi was already on a level capable of matching yomi. Rimi has been getting kensei's super training for a decent while too and even then she just recently managed this. Miu's training was held back for fear she would not be able to handle it even though she is the single most talented living disciple out there. Taking everything in consideration takeda is actually somewhat precocious in regards to releasing his ki considering he did it on his own. Heck, he got sei ki before lugh even though lugh is the disciple with the greatest ki potential.
More so, the implications of kenichi having released his ki 300 chapters ago are not positive in the least. The most important implication would be that kenichi sucks. He would suck so much it would be conclusive prove he has no business being in the same planet with other martial artists. As far as we know the other people he has fought up to now had not yet quite released their ki. Kano had not, boris had not, jihan didn't release it yet either and so on. Heck, just now kensei made it painfully clear lugh is moments away from losing every chance of winning his fight against takeda. The difference having awakened ki in battle makes is significant as rimi showed us very recently. In this regard, kenichi having awakened ki implies that he was fighting against his supposed peers in fights in which he should have had an overwhelming advantage on the merit of having his ki released however having released ki merely got him to match the other yomi for the most part. Basically every important enemy kenichi has fought would be a ki release from absolutely and unilaterally clobbering him.
You know what, deadbear may be right, after all kenichi gets a super power up when he's unconscious maybe in that state he manages to control he's sei ki to it's 100% but only on that state. If he managed to control that power by will then definetly he's gonna kick some ass!
The ki thing is raping my mind is kinda complicated matsuena has to give some good explanation about this matter.
About anything else I'm not really interested in any fights at all because all the members of the shinpaku alliance are obviusly gonna win because if they lose they die and matsuena is not gonna kill anybody except the bad guys and in a near future the elder.
You are correct it has never been stated outright by a master that Kenichi has great control of his ki. But lets look at the evidence. First, from the outset Kenichi always, ALWAYS keeps to his convictions even in situations that others would abandon them. Compare him to Miu who flew off the handle multiple times and went on borderline murderous rampages and according to the Elder that was caused basically by her out-of-control dou ki. Second, Ryuusei Seikuken. He mastered the technique within a day of really learning about it. The training in the Heart of Japan introduced him to his ki and he "subconsciously chose the path sei" (Koetsuji Akisame). But the Elder taught him the technique and he mastered it almost completely. Compare him to Takeda, who at best has only mastered the first level and its easy to break. Kenichi's Ryuusei is complete and, as demonstrated by their previous sparring session, he can maintain it even when he's disturbed. Ryuusei Seikuken has been called "the ultimate form of sei" so it stands to reason that it requires a great amount of ki control. Compare him to Miu who has had similar extreme training HER ENTIRE LIFE and it took Kenichi's help, the intervention of the Demon God Fist, more training by the Elder, and a love-triangle/death match (that she was loosing) for her to release her dou ki. Third, the nature of the two types of ki. Dou is a release of ki and emotions that empowers the individual to greater ability. Sei is a control of ki and emotions that strengthens them. The way I remember it first being explained is that dou is externalization and sei is internalization. In that case, Takeda releasing his sei ki might actually be a bad thing. That would mean its no longer under control. A sei user especially one of the katsujin-ken, must never lose control.
Oh, one last thing. Kenichi has fought two people who released their ki. Both Ryuuto Asamiya (Odin) and Kano Sho both used SeiDou Go (Roar As One) which is a HUGE power up using both Ki types at once. And he beat both. With his ki technique. Takeda's warp punch came out of desperation, only briefly gave him an advantage, and may not work very well now that his main arm is damaged.
Conclusion : Takeda has poor ki control. Kenichi has great ki control.
Last edited by Deadbear; February 04, 2013 at 04:22 AM.
Anger seems to be the trigger for the Sei Ki release or at least thats how it works for Takeda. We've never seen Kenichi release his Ki to the extent Takeda just did, not even against Boris when he hurt Miu during his visit at Ryozanpaku.
Last edited by BASED Shinigami; February 04, 2013 at 12:21 AM.
You don't need to have an awakened ki to use ki related techniques. Takeda himself is proof of that, he was using ki faints to trick lugh. Ryusui seikuken might be a more extreme application of ki however using it in itself does not imply the user actually has activated sei ki.
Miu never had trouble releasing her ki. The elder made a point of holding her training back to delay her ki release and miu had to try with all her might to keep it in check. Her issue was one of control given the inherent risks of dou ki and the sheer amount of ki she had (in spite of her being one, if not the, strongest disciple out there her body could not actually keep up with the sheer amount of ki she had.
Well, the explanation of sei and dou given was that dou made their ki explode and sei concentrate their ki. Dou uses emotions to make said explotion and sei keep their emotions in check to read the enemy and concentrate their power. Given the idea that sei and dou are opposites I would argue that the greatest risk of sei is the user being too much in control while as we have seen with dou there is an issue of the user not being in control and going into blind rages. Back when we saw the akira/sakaki flashbacks hajime made the point that akira was too conservative in battle while sakaki was too violent. I think the risks of sei are alongside the problem akira had. Basically too much introversion as a fighter, reading the situation too much but never acting and missing opportunities.
Sei do gyo does not necessarily imply the user has to have awakened ki. The disciples use ki regularly. Takeda was explicitly said to use sei ki before his fight with lugh, miu was called a dou ki user as early as when kenichi choose sei, boris was called a sei user in a flashback and so on... What changes is the amount of ki they can release before and after the activation and release of their ki types.
To be fair the chapter did imply takeda had some measure of use for his left arm still. More so, takeda is not screwed yet. Kensei made it painfully clear that lugh had mere moments until the fight turns conclusively into takeda's favor.
The manga by no means shows takeda has poor ki control or that kenichi has great ki control. More so, ryusui seikuken is a technique which only the elder and a few others know to begin with, takeda being able to use RS at all is a miracle to begin with. More so, in terms of sheer talent takeda grossly outclasses kenichi which is perhaps the reason he was able to figure out the warp punch on his own and the reason mere anger was enough to awaken his ki.
I'm guessing this may end in a draw
A second ki release points towards ki release being explored in depth. Bet Kenichi will have to release his ki to defeat Berserker, as Berserker is the kind of monster to never had his ki suppressed. Expecting lots of talk about releasing ki after it has been released the first time, and new differences between Sei and Dou.
Ki talk is fun because, even IRL, it blurs the line between reality and fantasy. On one hand it is a system with a lot of history for understanding the mind body balance, and for the dreamers it is just magic.
As I am understanding it now in HSD Kenichi releasing Ki is a major mental hurdle. Dou users are afraid of losing control and Sei users are afraid of hurting others (natural empathy, not Katsujinken vs Satsujinken philosophy). Dou users have to mentally let go but be able to stop when they want to, and Sei users have to allow themselves to care about their opponent which takes the brakes off their ability to read and plan (in Buddhist philosophy deep understanding is directly tied to deep love or hate). Conquering that internal mental hurdle so it no longer impedes or slows down your fighting ability is releasing your ki.
It is very comparable to that metaphor Kenichi was given about training. At the beginning it is like climbing a mountain, all effort and determination. Afterwards it is like allowing yourself to keep falling down a cliff side, a scary amount of trust in your teachers and training that you will fly rather than splat.
Miu and the elder have been avoiding it because taking down the hurdle isn't the same as being able to handle the consequences. Miu probably couldn't release without killing before, and even for a Satsujinken killing people you didn't intend is bad, not being able to stop equals easily controlled by a Sei user.
Wow there is so much wrong with your argument I don't really know where to start.
Stop...let that thought roll around in your head a little. Say it out loud... Do you hear how ridiculous it sounds?
But lets look at Ryuusei Seikuken a little closer. Again I'm gonna jump us all the way back to Kenichi's training in the Heart of Japan with the Elder. What happens? Through extreme exhaustion, turmoil, and hunger (and Ogata Isshinsai) the Elder guided Kenichi to choose the path of Sei. And after that he taught him how to consciously activate it. Kenichi stilled his mind and centered himself. His senses expanded. His abilities sharped. (Sounds like sei ki activation, right?) ...and Kenichi caught a fish. Yes, the last part sounds anti-climactic but who are we to doubt the Invincible Superman Hayato Furinji? From there he learned Seikuken and then later he very quickly learned Ryuusei Seikuken.
If your argument is true (it isn't by the way) then anyone - ANYONE - can use Ryuusei Seikuken. All a Dou ki user would have to do in order to use it is to not use their ki. But it is very explicitly stated that, as the most extreme use of sei, Ryuusei Seikuken is something that users of dou cannot use. Not should not. Not mostly cannot. Not under all but the most desperate circumstances cannot. Just they CANNOT EVER use it, thereby implying that sei ki use is an integral part of the technique.
And again as I pointed out Kenichi has shown a mastery and control over it that outstrips the only other fighter of the same level that has demonstrated an ability to use it - Takeda. Takeda's is "shallow". For all his talent he can only use the first level of the technique, matching the opponents movements. Demonstrating more mastery and thereby more control over his ki Kenichi match's his opponents movement and then controls them.
This is not quite right but not quite wrong. Miu has released her ki consistently almost from the beginning. So its true that she never had any problems...until a situation arises where (1) she needs to go all out (like against Kano Sho or against a master) and (2) when someone she cares about has been hurt or seemingly killed. When she gets in a situation in which both these factors are present at the same time she snaps and abandons all control. She is instead controlled by the anger - the rage - of her dou ki and she goes into a borderline murderous rampage. She doesn't quite descend into darkness except for one thing. A person: Kenichi. Both times we see this happen it is Kenichi, through the use of a blow to the head or Master Ma's mind control boob grappling technique, who pulls her out of it.Originally Posted by kkck
I think that part of Kano Sho's assessment of Miu is correct, left on her own she would have fallen to darkness (Yami), but she has everyone at Ryouzanpaku to help her, especially Kenichi. It might be the romantic in me but I think Kenichi provides a much needed base for her just as much as she provides him with wings (Is that sappy? Yes, yes it is).
That might be true, but it could also be that too much internalization or suppression of emotions makes a sei user too logical. All head and no heart. Sensei Big Boobs Kushinada Mikumo may have fled from her emotions when she lost someone dear to her. She abandoned connections in favor of an imperial view of everyone else. Sei's drawbacks may have lead Furinji Saiga to his conclusion that in order to save many a few must be killed. But since that problem really hasn't been expressed sufficiently yet I'll set it aside.Originally Posted by kkck
Um...yes it does. When we are first introduced to the technique we are told that it uses both the internalization of sei and the explosiveness of dou at the same time. Both ki types are awakened at once. You can't use any type of ki technique without ki being awakened.Originally Posted by kkck
Then all those fights that Kenichi has had since the introduction of Yami, when he is able to accurately read his opponent's moves (maybe not react to them, but thats a different ability type) and keep fighting despite being outclassed in more ways than one and eventually prevail -- Were they all a delusion or just an overlong dream that Kenichi is having and will eventually wake up from? Those times when Kenichi, mid-fight, has an unexpected blast of energy (ki) and can suddenly use a technique that he had never quite grasped before - they never happened? To name a few there is Ryuusei Seikuken (and intense accumulation of sei ki); Korui Nuki (a concentration of all his strength, energy, and senses (combined to be called ki) into his legs and directed at the weak points of his opponents defenses); the A-punch and Kai-kick (punching and kicking so hard you blow right through your enemy in a Pei Mei style attack); and the list goes on. All of them require intense concentration and control and lots of energy - his ki - and he has done that fairly consistently throughout the whole manga.Originally Posted by kkck
Actually it does. While it does not directly influence ki, the strength of one's convictions speaks to the strength of character which does directly impact one's control of ki. The strength of one's convictions is one of the most prevalent and over-arching themes of this whole manga. The Elder has already stated that Kenichi's adherence to his principle of "fighting the evil that people pretend not to see but not killing them" is the REASON Kenichi is History's Strongest's Disciple.Originally Posted by kkck