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Thread: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

  1. #16
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    The whole concept of kage bunshin training does make sense to me. I mean, the clones could be trying the same thing, but they can do it differently. One clone could put in more chakra, another can put in less chakra, one more could shape chakra differently, etc. It's not like they're doing 100% same thing, so the whole clones reading books doesn't make sense at all. They'll still understand it the same way, read the same way, do everything the same way. However, clones doing science experiments make sense as each can do things differently to try and get a result.

    However, experience going back to its user makes no sense. How does that happen, and why mental stuff, but not pain or chakra? Or does chakra go back only if the user dispelled his own kage bunshin, instead of it being killed away? Seems like an asspull ability to make Naruto gain a powerful jutsu. That's the only thing here that makes no sense, but the training or concept of training with kage bunshin does make perfect sense.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    It's been demonstrated that the clones don't all have the exact same thought process in the same situation at any given second. One clone might try melding too much chakra, another too little, simply at random (because each version of Naruto is essentially fumbling around trying to figure out this jutsu training, in the case of the Wind Element training). When the clones disperse, Naruto gains perspective on each of their successes/failures, and he can then synthesize these results and gain a "God's-eye view" of the situation, saving a vast amount of time. Based on what worked for one clone, he can see why another clone failed, etc.

    Some clones might get lucky at make the right decisions, others might get unlucky- your average ninja has a high percent chance of going either direction when approaching a new type of training, but Naruto can basically skip the wrong steps by making enough clones that he's practically guaranteed to figure SOMETHING out.

    Then, once he's completed this process, his next wave of clones will have that superior knowledge, and each of them can start with the knowledge accumulated by the "God's-eye view" original Naruto. Thus, within a few waves, he can easily eliminate all the roadblocks and mistakes that would have held him back, and can zero in on exactly the right methods to bring about success. He can grasp the correct approach much more quickly, and master it almost instantly through repetition once his next wave of clones is aware of the new method.

    In other words, "every mistake is a lesson", and Naruto is free to make hundreds of different mistakes (and possibly a few dozen successes) all at the same time, and instantly gain ALL of those lessons. If the majority of his clones make the same mistake, it's a sure bet that will be the first mistake Naruto eliminates in the next wave.
    Last edited by rlinfamous; February 02, 2013 at 04:47 PM.

  3. #18
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    It isn't total crap.
    Think about studying for exams.
    You read over a text book once, you don't remember too much.

    You get about 500 of you to read over a text book, and when they come back to you, you got 500 memories of you going over that text book.
    So you're not going to forget a single part of the text book you went over. I mean, you have 500 different memories of going over it.

    But for someone like Naruto to suddenly be able to handle that kinda knowledge and the way it was made to look extremely simple was sort of crap.
    Difference is you retain information when re-reading something over and over again because you've seen it for. If each clone picked up the book at the same time, it's likely that some would remember some things that others wouldn't but there would still be gaps.

    ---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    i don't get it. what's the problem with "someone like Naruto"? or people just add this line behind everything because it looks cool?
    Because Naruto is an idiot who does not learn in a traditional sense. The fact he lacks a good memory and does not understand the mechanics of ninjutsu very well means that training in this fashion, while unique to him, is still not best suited for him.

    IMO, Naruto works on feelings much better than anything else, which IMO is why I think he's so good at Sage Mode.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  4. #19
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    As for clones being immune to genjutsus, the Itachi-copy vs Kakashi fight pretty much proved that:
    we see Kakashi's KB reacting despite being in a genjutsu, and Itachi confirming it right after
    Don't believe clones are immune, as Itachi said he didn't expect Kakashi to be effected and that's how he figured it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    The main problem with Taijutsu training is that muscle memory would not advance. Martial arts training is all about replacing natural physical responses with new ones through practice and repetition. And make the body better at moving in those ways.

    The goal in martial arts when doing an activity like throwing a certain punch 300 times is actually to have your body throw a punch 300 times. If Naruto uses 100 Kagebunshin's to throw a punch 3 times. His body has only thrown that punch 3 times, which would defeat the point of the exercise.
    True, which is why I said sort of. Maybe genjutsu would make more sense, given the pure mental nature of it. But even that would probably require the clones to each try a different path.

  5. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Because Naruto is an idiot who does not learn in a traditional sense. The fact he lacks a good memory and does not understand the mechanics of ninjutsu very well means that training in this fashion, while unique to him, is still not best suited for him.

    IMO, Naruto works on feelings much better than anything else, which IMO is why I think he's so good at Sage Mode.
    true. that's why he has shown to be able to learn things in different way. and so far i can remember, he has shown the ability to learn very quickly even without the clones, whether you agree or not is upto you. but this is a manga fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    However, experience going back to its user makes no sense. How does that happen, and why mental stuff, but not pain or chakra? Or does chakra go back only if the user dispelled his own kage bunshin, instead of it being killed away? Seems like an asspull ability to make Naruto gain a powerful jutsu. That's the only thing here that makes no sense, but the training or concept of training with kage bunshin does make perfect sense.
    what question you raised is truly the real problem with Kage bunshin. if the memories are returning, then why not the pain?
    Naruto Forever


  6. #21
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    true. that's why he has shown to be able to learn things in different way. and so far i can remember, he has shown the ability to learn very quickly even without the clones, whether you agree or not is upto you. but this is a manga fact.
    Depending on how you define quickly, his ability to feel things out so far seems unique to him tho.

    1) Kage Bushin. Killed himself overnight to learn the jutsu. Unknown how hard it is to learn this jutsu however.

    2) Tree climbing. Whether or not this was quick is unknown. Sakura did it on her first try and him and Sasuke decided to train all night to master it. I say this is unknown because curiously a genius in Sasuke, who already knew advanced ninjutsu didn't initially learn it much faster than him.

    3) Rasengan. Took him 7 days. IMO, this is his most impressive feat even though he technically didn't complete it properly and only until recently could he do it with one hand.

    4) Sage Mode. As I said, he did this quickly and I'm inclined to believe it was a natural talent for him, but the fact remains he mastered it in what was probably less than a month to a degree his Master couldn't in years.

    5) RK Mode. An unprecedented feat so it's unknown how long this would normally take as it wasn't a normal Biju Cloak.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  7. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Depending on how you define quickly, his ability to feel things out so far seems unique to him tho.

    1) Kage Bushin. Killed himself overnight to learn the jutsu. Unknown how hard it is to learn this jutsu however.

    2) Tree climbing. Whether or not this was quick is unknown. Sakura did it on her first try and him and Sasuke decided to train all night to master it. I say this is unknown because curiously a genius in Sasuke, who already knew advanced ninjutsu didn't initially learn it much faster than him.

    3) Rasengan. Took him 7 days. IMO, this is his most impressive feat even though he technically didn't complete it properly and only until recently could he do it with one hand.

    4) Sage Mode. As I said, he did this quickly and I'm inclined to believe it was a natural talent for him, but the fact remains he mastered it in what was probably less than a month to a degree his Master couldn't in years.

    5) RK Mode. An unprecedented feat so it's unknown how long this would normally take as it wasn't a normal Biju Cloak.
    basically you have named most of the techniques Naruto can use. from your list it is apparent that he learned most of them (if not all) pretty quickly. now you can blame Kishi if Naruto learnt Sage mode faster and better than Jiriya, or if he used unorthodox method to use Rasengan; it is still true that he learnt them very quickly.
    Naruto Forever


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  9. #23
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    i don't get it. what's the problem with "someone like Naruto"? or people just add this line behind everything because it looks cool?
    I'm sorry, Naruto has been shown as somebody who isn't academic and studious on various occasions in the manga.
    His classmates state that he isn't bright either.
    Perhaps you have missed various part of this manga. You may want to re-watch the show.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Acutally it makes a lot of sense and is no asspull whatsoever.

    Lets look what was the orginial idea behind the technique:
    Somewhere in the manga it was stated that Kage Bunshin was invented for spying missions with no risks for the user.
    Out of that sense there's no avoiding in regaining knowledge or the technique itself would not make sense.

    So then an easy example:
    Imagine you want to draw a square. You've got 4 edges, so you can start at 4 edges. If you let 1000 people do this exercise and then combine your knowledge you will have at least 4 different ways to draw a square.

    Another example:
    I think at least the germans here are familiar with this: This is the "house of St. Nichols" oder "Das Haus vom Nikolaus" as we call it. The target of this exercise is to draw the house without painting the lines doubled.

    One solution:


    I looked it up on Wikipedia: There are 44 solutions to complete this.
    So let 1000 people do this and you'll probobly have several solutions.
    Redoing it with the 1000 people after they done it the first time will of course increase the result if they collected all the knowledge of all the other people.
    So it is working.

    The chakra training of Naruto is nothing less, lets make it clear with the example above.

    Naruto at 100% chakra makes 5 clones, each having 20% of his chakra.
    Given them 5 minutes time,
    Clone 1 finds solution 1,2,5,20 and uses 2% of chakra.
    Clone 2 finds solution 1,2,6,21 and uses 2% of chakra.
    Clone 3 finds solution 1,2,7,22 and uses 2% of chakra.
    Clone 4 finds solution 1,2,8,23 and uses 2% of chakra.
    Clone 5 finds solution 1,2,9,24 and uses 2% of chakra.

    5 minutes later we got Naruto knowing solutions 1,2,5,6,7,8,9,20,21,22,23 and 24 with 90% Chakra left.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I'm sorry, Naruto has been shown as somebody who isn't academic and studious on various occasions in the manga.
    His classmates state that he isn't bright either.
    Perhaps you have missed various part of this manga. You may want to re-watch the show.
    what kage bunshin training has to do with being studious? and who cares what his classmates think? because we already have enough evidence to negate that opinion.

    now i am sure people just say like this because it makes them feel cooler.
    Naruto Forever


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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I'm sorry, Naruto has been shown as somebody who isn't academic and studious on various occasions in the manga.
    His classmates state that he isn't bright either.
    Perhaps you have missed various part of this manga. You may want to re-watch the show.
    His classmates have said that Naruto's a horrible ninja. He is, actually, but in combat sense he's shocked them plenty of times. No one could predict Naruto outsmarting Neji the way he did, or timing his henge with kage bunshin that tricked even Kiba. Naruto isn't academic or studious, and is an idiot in that regards (likely his own fault), but he's not an idiot in fights, at the least. He's come up with good plans and shrewd ways to win that made him be respected by the very people that poked fun at him.

    And his classmates saying he's not bright is just their opinion. Kurenai calling Shikamaru an idiot was her opinion based on his horrible test scores, only because he didn't care to do his tests. In many cases, it's not wise or right to take the opinions of others. We've seen them base their opinions of Naruto on his school performance, which is unfair because Naruto has grown a lot since the time he was in school to the time the chuunin exam started (which is when we saw how many people thought of him as an idiot and then began to be shocked by how smart he actually was).

  14. #27
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkprince0521 View Post
    what kage bunshin training has to do with being studious? and who cares what his classmates think? because we already have enough evidence to negate that opinion.

    now i am sure people just say like this because it makes them feel cooler.
    He meant academically, and its true.
    Let's not forget Naruto didn't know what disordered meant when Madara used the word

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Naruto actually is really studious, he's just not good at it. It hasn't really been featured as part of the main plot, but Kishimoto has done countless illustrations of Naruto with stacks of books and scrolls trying to learn things (and probably making very little progress).

    The thing about Naruto is he's better at 1.) learning through hands-on experience, and 2.) figuring out his own solutions to problems.


    The Kage Bunshin training works because the clones aren't all doing the exact same thing, as others have stated.

    He's not trying the technique in the same way a thousand times, he's trying the technique a thousand different ways at the same time. Each time he carries this out, he gains the experience of all of his clones and can determine which ways worked best and theorize new approaches to solving the problem.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    I have a confession to make about KageBunshin training. I don't it makes any sense.

    This has been bugging me for years. I never mentioned it because with Sasuke always getting power-ups that were, if not free, gotten a huge Uchiha discount. Typically those shortcuts to strength were just excused with the 3 magic words of "he's a genius" (That's not how being a genius works, by the way). Anyway, since it balanced things out I just chose to ignore the concepts behind Kagebunshin training.

    But the fact that, in all the arguments skirting this general topic, I've never seen anybody mention this is starting to bother me. So here we go...

    Why Kagebunshin Training Never Made Sense to Me.


    Think about this for a moment. Assuming you train with 1000 of yourself and then combine the experience, it wouldn't have significant effect on the outcome of the training because all 1000 of you would be starting at the same point of experience and ending at the same point. So basically Naruto ends up learning the same thing for the first time, 1000 times. He's not getting 1000x the experience because the experience isn't shared until the bunshin is released. Making the repetitions... completely pointless.

    If you have 1000 of yourself learn the same thing 3 times independently of one another and then rejoin. How many repetitions worth of experience do you actually have? The answer, unfortunately, is 3.

    Imagine reading a book. Now imagine assigning 1000 of yourself to read that same book. You don't read that book any faster because you have to start at beginning and go to the end or the book won't make sense.

    The only real application of that sort of training would be to train 1000 different things at the same time. That WOULD make sense. As it wouldn't be like 1000 of him reading one book, it would be like 1000 of him reading a 1000 different books.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    So, am I missing something here? Does this thing actually make perfect sense and I'm just too dim to understand it's brilliance? Or is Kagebunshin training, as I've secretly always suspected, a massive load of nonsensical crap?
    Actually, what Kishi is utilizing is the theory between paralllel processing vs. linear processing. It's used in manufacturing and science all the time. Quite simply it states that if you can combine components together in a parallel fashion you can drastically reduce the overall process in terms of time, steps and increased yield in comparison to a linear fashion.

    For example:

    Let's say a standard Naruto training session is 1 day.
    Let's say Naruto has 1000 training sessions.

    If Naruto does it in a linear fashion, one after the other, it will take almost 3 years to do it 1000 times.

    However, if Naruto does it with 100 clones it takes only 10 days to do the 1000 reps.

    If the chance of "discovery" is totally random, say the wind shuiken, and the odds are 1 in 10,000, it would take Naruto over 27 years to discover the jutsu doing it linearly.

    However, if he used 100 clones in parallel, it would take him a little more than 3 months to make the discovery.

    This is what Kishi was utilizing and it makes sense. Naruto needs his powerups now, not when he's 42.
    Last edited by Brill; February 04, 2013 at 11:21 AM.

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  19. #30
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member samsiufan's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I'm sorry, Naruto has been shown as somebody who isn't academic and studious on various occasions in the manga.
    His classmates state that he isn't bright either.
    Perhaps you have missed various part of this manga. You may want to re-watch the show.
    That is why learning by KB is great for him. He learns by experiencing and not by reading darn books which are overated anyway in the Ninja world...

    As for his classmates - very few of them are bright so I wouldn't even take their word for it.. lol

    ---------- Post added at 05:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    Naruto actually is really studious, he's just not good at it. It hasn't really been featured as part of the main plot, but Kishimoto has done countless illustrations of Naruto with stacks of books and scrolls trying to learn things (and probably making very little progress).

    The thing about Naruto is he's better at 1.) learning through hands-on experience, and 2.) figuring out his own solutions to problems.


    The Kage Bunshin training works because the clones aren't all doing the exact same thing, as others have stated.

    He's not trying the technique in the same way a thousand times, he's trying the technique a thousand different ways at the same time. Each time he carries this out, he gains the experience of all of his clones and can determine which ways worked best and theorize new approaches to solving the problem.
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