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Thread: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsiufan View Post
    That is why learning by KB is great for him. He learns by experiencing and not by reading darn books which are overated anyway in the Ninja world...

    As for his classmates - very few of them are bright so I wouldn't even take their word for it.. lol
    Agreed, the worst is that the people making fun of him ( Chouji, Kiba and part 1 Ino and Sakura basically ) were the most pathetic ones out of the bunch.
    Sasuke and Neji I would understand, at least they were good for something and actually had the talent to feel "superior"

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    And it is that very talent that caused Neji to lose and Sasuke to leave the village.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    And it is that very talent that caused Neji to lose and Sasuke to leave the village.
    lol exactly, so if they have nothing to lecture Naruto for some pathetic one-trick buffons can?
    God this thread just keep reminding me how much I dislike fatboy and "I'mtheonlyonethatpissedhispants" boy

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    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Well, from my perspective Naruto seems really smart because he's succeeded with a training the doesn't seem to work. If it's a big ol' placebo. Naruto must be one brilliant guy.

    If I'm right about this being a crap, it's actually Kakashi that this makes look like a bit of dumbass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighty View Post
    Acutally it makes a lot of sense and is no asspull whatsoever.

    Lets look what was the orginial idea behind the technique:
    Somewhere in the manga it was stated that Kage Bunshin was invented for spying missions with no risks for the user.
    Out of that sense there's no avoiding in regaining knowledge or the technique itself would not make sense.

    So then an easy example:
    Imagine you want to draw a square. You've got 4 edges, so you can start at 4 edges. If you let 1000 people do this exercise and then combine your knowledge you will have at least 4 different ways to draw a square.

    Another example:
    I think at least the germans here are familiar with this: This is the "house of St. Nichols" oder "Das Haus vom Nikolaus" as we call it. The target of this exercise is to draw the house without painting the lines doubled.

    One solution:


    I looked it up on Wikipedia: There are 44 solutions to complete this.
    So let 1000 people do this and you'll probobly have several solutions.
    Redoing it with the 1000 people after they done it the first time will of course increase the result if they collected all the knowledge of all the other people.
    So it is working.

    The chakra training of Naruto is nothing less, lets make it clear with the example above.

    Naruto at 100% chakra makes 5 clones, each having 20% of his chakra.
    Given them 5 minutes time,
    Clone 1 finds solution 1,2,5,20 and uses 2% of chakra.
    Clone 2 finds solution 1,2,6,21 and uses 2% of chakra.
    Clone 3 finds solution 1,2,7,22 and uses 2% of chakra.
    Clone 4 finds solution 1,2,8,23 and uses 2% of chakra.
    Clone 5 finds solution 1,2,9,24 and uses 2% of chakra.

    5 minutes later we got Naruto knowing solutions 1,2,5,6,7,8,9,20,21,22,23 and 24 with 90% Chakra left.
    I like your example but isn't that an a approach to puzzle solving rather than skilled learning?

    It's based on the notion of randomly getting a certain result in shorter period of time. But building up a skill is not a matter of probability it's a something where every failure grants knowledge and based on that knowledge you gain the ability to do something better and better, until you can do it well.

    It's not like he's guessing the key to a combination lock. Though even that would bring obvious problems, namely how many of his clones would try the same numbers. Since all the clones are him, they would share the same tendencies would they not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    Actually, what Kishi is utilizing is the theory between paralllel processing vs. linear processing. It's used in manufacturing and science all the time. Quite simply it states that if you can combine components together in a parallel fashion you can drastically reduce the overall process in terms of time, steps and increased yield in comparison to a linear fashion.

    For example:

    Let's say a standard Naruto training session is 1 day.
    Let's say Naruto has 1000 training sessions.

    If Naruto does it in a linear fashion, one after the other, it will take almost 3 years to do it 1000 times.

    However, if Naruto does it with 100 clones it takes only 10 days to do the 1000 reps.

    If the chance of "discovery" is totally random, say the wind shuiken, and the odds are 1 in 10,000, it would take Naruto over 27 years to discover the jutsu doing it linearly.

    However, if he used 100 clones in parallel, it would take him a little more than 3 months to make the discovery.

    This is what Kishi was utilizing and it makes sense. Naruto needs his powerups now, not when he's 42.
    I like your example a lot too.

    And in matter's of experimentation I'd agree with you. He could divide the labor and therefore decrease the amount of time it would take to do something. But if it's something skill based than I don't see how the labor could actually be divided in the way you suggest.

    The conventional method of learning a skill based task is try something and refine what you do each time. And through repetitions of this refine what works best each time you do it. Naruto's clones supposedly speed this up by benefiting from each others experience but, due to the fact that they are separate entities until the jutsu is released, they can't actually do that; unless the process was for him to make 1000 clones, do the training once, then release the jutsu. And even then it wouldn't be exactly the same thing.

    Experiment:
    Lets say Naruto makes 3 clones to do 5 repetitions of wind element training before they are released. Returning the experience to Naruto.

    Results
    The training was performed a total of 15 times, but since it was divided between 3 separate equally experienced clones. They would have all started and ended with the same amount of experience with the training(5 repetitions).

    So the only gain would be that he would end up with the best result of all of his clones, correct?

    -----------------------------------------------

    He could arguably end up with the best possible results for him in that given time, because the clone that did the best would be the clone whose experience he would presumably use but even then. since all of the clones are copies of himself the experience is bound to be fairly similar.

    Then on top of that there is concept of "noise" from the clones that did badly. It stands to reason that if some clones were doing particularly good other clones would be doing particularly bad. So he should theoretically be taking the bad with the good should he not?
    Last edited by Jammin; February 04, 2013 at 04:10 PM.
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brill's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    I like your example a lot too.

    And in matter's of experimentation I'd agree with you. He could divide the labor and therefore decrease the amount of time it would take to do something. But if it's something skill based than I don't see how the labor could actually be divided in the way you suggest.

    The conventional method of learning a skill based task is try something and refine what you do each time. And through repetitions of this refine what works best each time you do it. Naruto's clones supposedly speed this up by benefiting from each others experience but, due to the fact that they are separate entities until the jutsu is released, they can't actually do that; unless the process was for him to make 1000 clones, do the training once, then release the jutsu. And even then it wouldn't be exactly the same thing.

    Experiment:
    Lets say Naruto makes 3 clones to do 5 repetitions of wind element training before they are released. Returning the experience to Naruto.

    Results
    The training was performed a total of 15 times, but since it was divided between 3 separate equally experienced clones. They would have all started and ended with the same amount of experience with the training(5 repetitions).

    So the only gain would be that he would end up with the best result of all of his clones, correct?

    -----------------------------------------------

    He could arguably end up with the best possible results for him in that given time, because the clone that did the best would be the clone whose experience he would presumably use but even then. since all of the clones are copies of himself the experience is bound to be fairly similar.

    Then on top of that there is concept of "noise" from the clones that did badly. It stands to reason that if some clones were doing particularly good other clones would be doing particularly bad. So he should theoretically be taking the bad with the good should he not?
    You're making the assumption that the clones have no autonomy. That they would all behave the exact same way, do the same things as the original and therefore just copying and not generating any new data. But Kishi does show that in using the clone technique the clones are trying different methods to develop the wind chakra technique. When a discovery is made, it is made by one clone and not all of them at the same time. This suggests that they are not merely copying the original Naruto but doing things on their own. Then when Naruto cancels the justu he learns the approaches that work and fine tunes his research to make the next advancement.

    For example one clone may put the left hand over the right, while another puts the right hand over the left, another rubs his hands together, and another leave 2 inches between both hands.. You could have 100 clones do 100 different pemutations and figure out which ones work, instead of having 1 person do all 100. There is inherent efficiency built into the clone technique that the original Naruto can't compete with. That's what allows Naruto to surpass Kakashi because the can do this technique while Kakashi can't.

    Now naruto could be lucky and got it on his 1st attenpt unaided, but since this tecfhnique is A-ranked, and few can do it, the odds are that he would fail on his first attempt. So the primary driver is repetiition rather than skill to reserach the new technique.

    They say research is 90% failure and 10% success and as a scientist I can attest to this comment.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    @Jammin: Yes and no.

    Look, I think i already showed in that example that probobly every Naruto would begin with combinations 1 and 2, maybe even then they'll all go with 3 but then it gets interesting. As they are seperated now, every Naruto might come up with a different idea how to solve the problem.

    Taking this over to chakra control lets say this:
    Naruto #1: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Puts more chakra into it
    Naruto #2: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Tries to sharpen the chakra
    Naruto #3: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Takes a different approach sharpening the chakra

    So even if the clones probobly do produce similar results after beginning, their training will differ more and more time goes by as every clone for himself might find a way to do it just a little better.
    In the end after this little example Training our Naruto probobly knows how hard he has to sharpen the chakra to cut the leaf, how much chakra he needs to put into it and what is probobly the best way of sharpening the chakra.
    So i think on certain levels it can be splitted.
    That should also explain why i think that your example, or lets see the deduction is not entirely right.

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    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brill View Post
    You're making the assumption that the clones have no autonomy. That they would all behave the exact same way, do the same things as the original and therefore just copying and not generating any new data. But Kishi does show that in using the clone technique the clones are trying different methods to develop the wind chakra technique. When a discovery is made, it is made by one clone and not all of them at the same time. This suggests that they are not merely copying the original Naruto but doing things on their own. Then when Naruto cancels the justu he learns the approaches that work and fine tunes his research to make the next advancement.

    For example one clone may put the left hand over the right, while another puts the right hand over the left, another rubs his hands together, and another leave 2 inches between both hands.. You could have 100 clones do 100 different pemutations and figure out which ones work, instead of having 1 person do all 100. There is inherent efficiency built into the clone technique that the original Naruto can't compete with. That's what allows Naruto to surpass Kakashi because the can do this technique while Kakashi can't.

    Now naruto could be lucky and got it on his 1st attenpt unaided, but since this tecfhnique is A-ranked, and few can do it, the odds are that he would fail on his first attempt. So the primary driver is repetiition rather than skill to reserach the new technique.

    They say research is 90% failure and 10% success and as a scientist I can attest to this comment.
    The reason I think it's likely that they would act in ways similar to one another isn't because they are coping Naruto, it's that they are him. Hence the term "clone". Are there difference in each's behavior? Absolutely, but when focused on a task the approach each takes would be similar to the original because they all Naruto's shadow and would think in a similar way. Though, as Lighty out, the longer they are separated from Naruto the more divergent they are likely to be.

    You suggest Naruto is doing research with his clones but that's not exactly what he's doing. He's was learning skills with them. Wind element manipulation, most skills such as that a teacher can tell you what to do, as Asuma did for Naruto. Learning how to do it consistently, quickly, and smoothly is something else entirely. That's where I don't see how Kagebunshin can be of nearly as much help as the manga claims.

    For example, as a habit I spin a pen between four fingers of one hand (like in the bond movie Goldeneye). I could tell anybody how to do it but actually getting good at it is a matter simple practice. How much faster to you think a hundred shadow clones of yourself would allow you to master that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighty View Post
    @Jammin: Yes and no.

    Look, I think i already showed in that example that probobly every Naruto would begin with combinations 1 and 2, maybe even then they'll all go with 3 but then it gets interesting. As they are seperated now, every Naruto might come up with a different idea how to solve the problem.

    Taking this over to chakra control lets say this:
    Naruto #1: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Puts more chakra into it
    Naruto #2: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Tries to sharpen the chakra
    Naruto #3: Tries and fails ---> Tries and fails ----> Tries and fails ---> Takes a different approach sharpening the chakra

    So even if the clones probobly do produce similar results after beginning, their training will differ more and more time goes by as every clone for himself might find a way to do it just a little better.
    In the end after this little example Training our Naruto probobly knows how hard he has to sharpen the chakra to cut the leaf, how much chakra he needs to put into it and what is probobly the best way of sharpening the chakra.
    So i think on certain levels it can be splitted.
    That should also explain why i think that your example, or lets see the deduction is not entirely right.
    I can understand that. So basically you saying that as Naruto's clones continue to train their paths of training would diverge further and further from one another and therefore would more likely put one of those on the fastest possible path for him to learn whatever he's trying to. That seems a reasonable benefit to expect.

    This still leaves the question "How much would that benefit be?"

    Would it equate multiplying the experience gained by the number of clones? I find that very hard to believe, and that is what the gain was implicitly stated to be.
    Last edited by Jammin; February 04, 2013 at 07:04 PM.
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    The reason I think it's likely that they would act in ways similar to one another isn't because they are coping Naruto, it's that they are him. Hence the term "clone". Are there difference in each's behavior? Absolutely, but when focused on a task the approach each takes would be similar to the original because they all Naruto's shadow and would think in a similar way. Though, as Lighty out, the longer they are separated from Naruto the more divergent they are likely to be.

    You suggest Naruto is doing research with his clones but that's not exactly what he's doing. He's was learning skills with them. Wind element manipulation, most skills such as that a teacher can tell you what to do, as Asuma did for Naruto. Learning how to do it consistently, quickly, and smoothly is something else entirely. That's where I don't see how Kagebunshin can be of nearly as much help as the manga claims.

    For example, as a habit I spin a pen between four fingers of one hand (like in the bond movie Goldeneye). I could tell anybody how to do it but actually getting good at it is a matter simple practice. How much faster to you think a hundred shadow clones of yourself would allow you to master that?

    I can understand that. So basically you saying that as Naruto's clones continue to train their paths of training would diverge further and further from one another and therefore would more likely put one of those on the fastest possible path for him to learn whatever he's trying to. That seems a reasonable benefit to expect.

    This still leaves the question "How much would that benefit be?"

    Would it equate multiplying the experience gained by the number of clones? I find that very hard to believe, and that is what the gain was implicitly stated to be.
    you are totally wrong in your assumption. if clones can progress ahead of the original; then it is pretty apparent that they can think differently than the original. it's better if you realize it.
    Naruto Forever


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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    @ Jammin:
    Exactly my point, but it defienetly is effective, probobly more and more effective the more often you share the knowledge and therefore improve your training results. But even without doing this very frequently, the trainng should be considerably effective as this training is like a web, the more and more it gets bigger the more paths are offered.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    The reason I think it's likely that they would act in ways similar to one another isn't because they are coping Naruto, it's that they are him. Hence the term "clone". Are there difference in each's behavior? Absolutely, but when focused on a task the approach each takes would be similar to the original because they all Naruto's shadow and would think in a similar way. Though, as Lighty out, the longer they are separated from Naruto the more divergent they are likely to be.
    The difference isn't any different from original Naruto's, though. They still think like Naruto, but not his exact thoughts at the moment. One Naruto can be all "RAMEN!!" while another Naruto can be all "DATE WITH SAKURA!" if both of them were at the same place at the same time. It'd still be what Naruto would think, but since there's clone, they can focus on one thing, but tehy'd likely act the same in different situation. Or at least, typical Naruto. Dunno how the length of separation affects their personality though.

    Quote Quote:
    You suggest Naruto is doing research with his clones but that's not exactly what he's doing. He's was learning skills with them. Wind element manipulation, most skills such as that a teacher can tell you what to do, as Asuma did for Naruto. Learning how to do it consistently, quickly, and smoothly is something else entirely. That's where I don't see how Kagebunshin can be of nearly as much help as the manga claims.
    He's trying different things with the clones though. Each clone can put in different power or mold chakra differently or make their chakra different. If the task is difficult and takes a long time, havin about 1000 clones can cut this time in half as they'd each be looking for ways to get their objective. If one clone finally cuts the leaf, then after he dispels, the original Naruto will learn that method as well, while 999 other clones STILL can't cut their leaf or don't know how.

    The original Naruto can give the order to come up with different ways to cut the leaf, which the clones try. They would probably know to try all different ways. One Naruto can focus on putting forth more chakra, another can focus on molding chakra to the exact shape, another can combine both and see if that works.

    Quote Quote:
    For example, as a habit I spin a pen between four fingers of one hand (like in the bond movie Goldeneye). I could tell anybody how to do it but actually getting good at it is a matter simple practice. How much faster to you think a hundred shadow clones of yourself would allow you to master that?
    Not that fast because there's no different way to spinning a pen, is there? Even if there is, there's no incorrect way for the spinner.

    Quote Quote:
    I can understand that. So basically you saying that as Naruto's clones continue to train their paths of training would diverge further and further from one another and therefore would more likely put one of those on the fastest possible path for him to learn whatever he's trying to. That seems a reasonable benefit to expect.

    This still leaves the question "How much would that benefit be?"

    Would it equate multiplying the experience gained by the number of clones? I find that very hard to believe, and that is what the gain was implicitly stated to be.
    I think it would be of great benefit because Naruto can learn hundreds of different ways to do something. Although one ultimately works, he can gain better experience of what to do and what not to do, and try things different for different jutsu. The knowledge he gains would give him benefit here.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member metalia's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    There's little chance to learn a new justu the first time you try it. But if you do a thousand "first tries", that chance increases a lot. That's why.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    THAT doesn't make sense to people? And I'm guessing that releasing a powerful chemical inside an Uchiha's brain results in producing more powerful eyes makes MUCH MORE SENSE.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Not everything is supposed to make sense. . .
    It's a manga for Christ sake. It's suppose to be cool and awesome.
    I mean you have guys shooting fire out of their mouths and shit.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasy View Post
    Not everything is supposed to make sense. . .
    It's a manga for Christ sake. It's suppose to be cool and awesome.
    I mean you have guys shooting fire out of their mouths and shit.
    The problem here is that people's judgment is never objective. They don't apply the same logic to every point in the manga, which begs a question of love/hate thing for something they're probably dissing. There are 90% of posts like this and it's ridiculous.

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    The reason I think it's likely that they would act in ways similar to one another isn't because they are coping Naruto, it's that they are him. Hence the term "clone". Are there difference in each's behavior? Absolutely, but when focused on a task the approach each takes would be similar to the original because they all Naruto's shadow and would think in a similar way. Though, as Lighty out, the longer they are separated from Naruto the more divergent they are likely to be.
    The Japanese term "bunshin" is actually closer in meaning to "doppelganger" than "clone," just FYI. As in "looks the same," not "exact genetic replica." This is one of the areas where the official English translations are more accurate.

    If you read the Road to Ninja special, it's got scenes of Naruto playing cards with his own Kage Bunshin doppelgangers and they all behave differently because they are dealt different hands. They even get into an argument.

    The fact is that his clones are all attempting different methods to master the technique. Even if the permutations are only minor, the results will be different.

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